Mini #704: Hunchback of Notre Dame, Game Over

[Axelrod]

townlist:
mizzy
carncarn
mach-maf
axelrod

Maybe it's just me, but I really don't like kinds of lists. The players often end up dead the next day.

FoS: roflcopter

It's just you. Lists are fine.

Especially

if the player just replaced in. I'd vastly prefer if people came out periodically and just said who they were viewing as town/scum at that point in the game. At least they are taking a stand on something.

[CarnCarn]

The problem with that is that it makes deciding NKs for the scum a lot easier if they know who the town thinks is town and who the town is unsure of.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

The pattern of Caboose's posts continues. In both of his twos posts after I pointed out the pattern, he is still delaying actually scumhunting and placing vote.

The problem with that is that it makes deciding NKs for the scum a lot easier if they know who the town thinks is town and who the town is unsure of.

I think how scum choose nightkills is much more complex than you are making it out to be. Maybe they choose to kill the towniest players. Maybe they choose to kill more suspicious players to make townier players look bad. Maybe they choose to kill more suspicious players because they see a higher possibility of hitting power roles. Etc.

So I have no problem with players making lists that include protown players. I will do it occasionally as well.

[Mizzy]

The problem with that is that it makes deciding NKs for the scum a lot easier if they know who the town thinks is town and who the town is unsure of.

One list by one person isn't telling the scum anything.

And let me get this straight...you don't want ROFL helping the scum inadvertently by telling everyone who he thinks is what, and yet you FoSed him? An FoS tells us you might suspect someone is scum. However, if he is scum, and he posted a list of those he thinks is innocent, there's no real harm done because the scum will find out anyway. So to me, you basically scolded someone as if they were a bad townie and then accused them of being scum. Which is it?

[ClockworkRuse]

@Axelrod: I assume you meant #195 when you said "basically, I agree with MM in #175"?

Um, yes, I meant that. Although technically what I'm agreeing with is your point #2 in post 195, not your point #1.

CR: my suggestion that you claim was based on the deadline. We no longer have a deadline (although one could go back on at any moment).

I'm thinking I might prefer ThAdmiral as a target right now, for a

lot

of wishy-washyness, including a vote-unvote-vote-unvote string in successive posts and failure to express strong opinions about anyone.

Perhaps a case shall follow!

But as it was, the second time you asked me to claim I was L-4. So even if it was a deadline claim, I wasn't necessarily the choice for the day.

[ClockworkRuse]

Tell me why scumhunting even if pressure is building on me is scummy, CarnCarn.

Expecting an answer.

[Battousai]

Mizzy: You plan on answering any of the questions I asked you in 220?

[Caboose]

townlist:
mizzy
carncarn
mach-maf
axelrod

Maybe it's just me, but I really don't like kinds of lists. The players often end up dead the next day.

FoS: roflcopter

That's how rofl rolls, there's no need for an FoS because of it.

And let me get this straight...you don't want ROFL helping the scum inadvertently by telling everyone who he thinks is what, and yet you FoSed him? An FoS tells us you might suspect someone is scum. However, if he is scum, and he posted a list of those he thinks is innocent, there's no real harm done because the scum will find out anyway. So to me, you basically scolded someone as if they were a bad townie and then accused them of being scum. Which is it?

Mizzy beat me to it. I don't get why a town list, especially from someone like rofl, merits an FoS.

Vote: CarnCarn

For FoSing rofl for a BS reason.

The pattern of Caboose's posts continues. In both of his twos posts after I pointed out the pattern, he is still delaying actually scumhunting and placing vote.

Yes, it does continue, and will continue. I post in short spurts of writing, I don't read or make really really long posts.

[CarnCarn]

Vote: CarnCarn

For FoSing rofl for a BS reason.

This from someone who thinks FoS's are pointless anyway.

And let me get this straight...you don't want ROFL helping the scum inadvertently by telling everyone who he thinks is what, and yet you FoSed him? An FoS tells us you might suspect someone is scum. However, if he is scum, and he posted a list of those he thinks is innocent, there's no real harm done because the scum will find out anyway. So to me, you basically scolded someone as if they were a bad townie and then accused them of being scum. Which is it?

I have no idea what he is and I never said he was town. Why are you pretending like I did? At best it's scum WIFOM and my point was that it could just make protown-killing scum's job easier.
MM made a good point about scum NKs not necessarily being that straightforward, though.

[Caboose]

Vote: CarnCarn

For FoSing rofl for a BS reason.

This from someone who thinks FoS's are pointless anyway.

Just because they're pointless, it doesn't mean that they don't have to have a good reason behind them.

[CarnCarn]

Tell me why scumhunting even if pressure is building on me is scummy, CarnCarn.

Expecting an answer.

Your original comments said you had someone in mind, but didn't say who it was; just someone, maybe anyone. It made it sound like your intentions were to deflect attention more than anything.

Just because they're pointless, it doesn't mean that they don't have to have a good reason behind them.

1. That's counterintuitive. Something pointless doesn't need to have a point to it, yes?
2. There was a reason for it and I've explained twice now why it could hurt the town.
3. Voting for someone because they FoS'd is really weaksauce.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy: You plan on answering any of the questions I asked you in 220?

Yes; the reason I hadn't yet was because it kind of made me mad that your case was so rotten and yet you voted without even waiting for me to respond to the first post. I figured I should wait a bit before I said something rude.

[Mizzy]

I have no idea what he is and I never said he was town. Why are you pretending like I did? At best it's scum WIFOM and my point was that it could just make protown-killing scum's job easier.
MM made a good point about scum NKs not necessarily being that straightforward, though.

I didn't say that you said he was town, what I said what that your beef with what he did is only valid if you feel he's town, because otherwise, what do you care?

[ClockworkRuse]

Tell me why scumhunting even if pressure is building on me is scummy, CarnCarn.

Expecting an answer.

Your original comments said you had someone in mind, but didn't say who it was; just someone, maybe anyone. It made it sound like your intentions were to deflect attention more than anything.

Just because they're pointless, it doesn't mean that they don't have to have a good reason behind them.

1. That's counterintuitive. Something pointless doesn't need to have a point to it, yes?
2. There was a reason for it and I've explained twice now why it could hurt the town.
3. Voting for someone because they FoS'd is really weaksauce.

So because I didn't say explicitly that I was going to concentrate on Ort, that I guessed it would be assumed, I am scum?

[Caboose]

1. That's counterintuitive. Something pointless doesn't need to have a point to it, yes?
2. There was a reason for it and I've explained twice now why it could hurt the town.
3. Voting for someone because they FoS'd is really weaksauce.

1. OK, now you're just arguing semantics.
2. Yeah, but the reason isn't valid and it looked contrived.
3. No, what's weaksauce is FoSing with no reason.

[petroleumjelly]

Day One: Vote Count #12

5 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, ortolan, Axelrod, CarnCarn, roflcopter)
2 Battousai (destructor, ClockworkRuse)
1 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia)
1 CarnCarn (Caboose)
1 Mizzy (Battousai)

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch, and

4

to lynch at deadline. Currently no deadline.

Not Voting – 2 – Mizzy, ThAdmiral

urielzyx has until tomorrow at 9:59 pm CDT to post or I will begin searching for a replacement.

[ThAdmiral]

Chipping in with a quick comment: I think the idea of lynching anyone just to find out their alignment is completely horrible. If we have a lynch, it should be someone we think is scum. Period.

True.
I hate what are known as "information lynches" (which really should be called "i-don't-really-have-a-good-reason lynches" or "i'm-mafia-and-i-want-to-get-on-this-lynch-but-still-seem-to-be-acting-in-favor-of-the-town lynches").

- setting up a binary system that implies if you are on the lynch and it he is scum you are town, and if you are on the lynch and he is town you are scum (also setting up chain lynches to a certain degree)
- doesn't seem to take responsibility for own vote: when he says "we can investigate his wagoners tomorrow" it doesn't sound like he is including himself.

No, I was one of his wagoners earlier in the day, and it looks like I will be at the end of the day, too. I'm not "excusing" myself at all. If I am setting up chain lynches, then I'm setting up my own lynch, too.

Righto.
Good that it is cleared up though.

3. Voting for someone because they FoS'd is really weaksauce.

have to agree here.


It seems like people are voting clockwork because of his play-choices (i.e. the non-vote on ramus) rather than him being "scummy". In fact it seems like people are voting for him because they don't understand him/his logic, or simply disagree with him.
can

axelrod

,

roflcopter

and

carncarn

respond to this.

[destructor]

I would respond to Axel if I knew what his issue with me was.

scumlist:
clockworkruse
battousai
destructor

How do you figure this?

des jumps right in to defend cr, and in post 137 starts trying to scare votes off the cr wagon by raising the specter of, god forbid, a six page day.

?

post 70 from ortolan smells an awful lot like distancing. fos = friend of scum. this also makes cwr's silly ortolan vote make a lot more sense.

[...]

According to the last votecount, he only has 1 vote. It's strange you seem to be at least partially appealing to argument from the majority here.

zing! great point made by ort against cwr. still think he's just distancing/bussing though. its become a real back and forth by this point, but to begin with their attacks on each other were really suspect.

[...]

From what has been said, I don't think CR has done anything worth being lynched yet. But maybe being at L-2 he has kept up being active.

uh huh. batt is distancing cwr, and hoping this wagon falls apart.

[...]

post 209 hey look i was right batt was just distancing cwr and wasn't really willing to go all the way to a bus. throwing an fos at axel for asking for a claim from the guy he was bandwagoning is bupkiss too.

I don't count bussing to be likely in this setup. If Batt and CR are scum together, I see his jump off the CR wagon to have come at the worst time possible. The timing of ort's vote would make more sense as bussing, but the fact that CR voted him in the first place and pushed as hard as he did makes the whole thing less likely.

Could someone please summarize why CR is obvscum?

I don't think anyone is obvscum, here. I am voting CR because he seems most scummy (dodging the Ramus wagon with a clearly invalid excuse, annoucing that he was getting ready to go after attacking someone right when the attention starting mounting on him, etc.)

Did you mean the pressure mounting on CR or Ramus?

@ Mizzy, what were your reasons for staying away from the CR wagon? If you think CR is likely town, do you think scum are on his wagon? What are you thinking about Caboose and Battousai? How about rofl and Axel's posts on replacing in?

Battousai's last few posts (particularly 220) look good. I may have been beating a dead horse.

Unvote

I didn't really see a point in CarnCarn's FOS of rofl. His list could only be construed as anti-town at most, since the effect it would have on scum's kill choice is null if rofl was scum anyway. There is no ulterior motive for rofl as scum to have posted a list. If the list helps scum, rofl must be town and so an FOS makes no sense. There was also that IGMEOY at Caboose which seemed useless. I also just noticed that he seemed to jump ship from CR to Caboose after MM posted a case.

Caboose seems useless, but CC is looking like opportunistic scum.

Vote: CarnCarn

I still don't see the merit in the case on CR. I'm surprised that both Axel and rofl voted him on replacing in and makes me wonder if I'm missing something.

[Mizzy]

@ Mizzy, what were your reasons for staying away from the CR wagon? If you think CR is likely town, do you think scum are on his wagon? What are you thinking about Caboose and Battousai? How about rofl and Axel's posts on replacing in?

I don't think he's scum, no, and I do think his wagon has a high amount of scum in it because he's intelligent and very perceptive; a dangerous pro-town player to have. I think people are voting him because they don't agree with him or because he's very vocal in a way they don't personally like and I don't think the "cases" on him are sound.

[CarnCarn]

I didn't really see a point in CarnCarn's FOS of rofl. His list could only be construed as anti-town at most, since the effect it would have on scum's kill choice is null if rofl was scum anyway. There is no ulterior motive for rofl as scum to have posted a list.

Yeah, it's not like there is a Mafia Traitor or anything in this setup...

Chances of scum being on my wagon... quite high.

[Axelrod]

I would respond to Axel if I knew what his issue with me was.

I will give you a few.

Your Post #122, has a few things I consider questionable, but the biggest is when you say this:

I think there is/are scum on the CR wagon. I think Batt may fit the description. I'd vote for Batt right now, but Caboose is on his wagon already.

You have not said anything about Caboose up to this point, but the only interpertation that I can give to this post is that you are finding Batt. scummy, you would like to vote for him, BUT, Caboose (who you ALSO think is scummy) is already voting for him, causing you a dilemma. Could you be "wrong" about Batt? Could Caboose be bussing his scum-buddy? And due to this dilemma, you choose to vote for no one.

If that is, in fact, your logic, then I don't like it very much. It's very questionable to refrain from voting player X because player Y is voting for him. And if you think player Y is scummier, then why don't you just vote for player Y? This is being non-committal.

In post #133, you apparently no longer have problems voting for Batt. It

appears

, however, that your primary motivation for the vote is general inactivity and a desire to get things moving. You don't make any kind of actual case here or urge others to vote the same way.

Getting things moving is not always a bad reason to vote someone, but the way you did it in that post does not strike me as a vote actually calculated to make something happen. Batt. was not under any serious kind of pressure that I remember at that point.

You have no other focus on any other player that I see other than Batt. - though you question several. Right up until most recently where you Unvote, saying his recent posts have looked good.

You do a lot of defending of CR, which, as you can imagine, I don't agree with. Right up until recently where you ask yourself if you are missing something because both the most recent replacements have found him suspicious. I find it a little odd that you would post something like that.

You also do a bit of asking for other players to be prodded. It's a bit of a meta-thing, but I find too much of that scummy.

My big question for you at this moment is: what was up with that "Caboose" remark in #122. What are you/were you feeling about him?

[roflcopter]

likelihood that caboose is scum with clockwork rising dramatically

the carncarn votes are bullshit, he fosed me essentially for a theory disagreement (which, yes, is a silly reason to fos), but getting all bent out of shape and voting him for that is extremely opportunistic and looks like a last ditch effort to move the wagon off of cwr.

It seems like people are voting clockwork because of his play-choices (i.e. the non-vote on ramus) rather than him being "scummy". In fact it seems like people are voting for him because they don't understand him/his logic, or simply disagree with him.
can axelrod, roflcopter and carncarn respond to this.

at least in terms of my own vote for clockwork, your assessment is very much incorrect, and i wonder whether you actually read my post.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

The pattern of Caboose's posts continues. In both of his twos posts after I pointed out the pattern, he is still delaying actually scumhunting and placing vote.

Yes, it does continue, and will continue. I post in short spurts of writing, I don't read or make really really long posts.

That's no excuse. You can still scumhunt while making short posts. Most of my posts are under 5 lines, with the longest one being only 10 lines, yet I can still do scumhunting adequately.

@ThAdmiral:

with the time extension i should hopefully be able to choose a better target and not just a lurker.

Found one yet?

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

Sorry for double post, just noticed this:

Chances of scum being on my wagon... quite high.

So who is more likely to be scum to you? Is it CR, who is your current vote, or is it one or both of {Caboose, Destrutor}, who are on your current wagon? If it's the former, does it mean you consider CR's chance to be scum to be very high (i.e. higher than "quite high")? If it's the latter, why did you not switch your vote?

[Caboose]

Chances of scum being on my wagon... quite high.

2 votes is a wagon?
Also people who say this are usually scum.

Vote stands.