Mini Normal 2303 [Postgame!!!!]
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Black she/herTwilight Princessshe/her
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I want to hear from fire today
Also do we think a massclaim hurts town or helps town here?-
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Flower They/ThemGoonThey/Them
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Gut says hurts since pretty much everyone but the Vig has claimedIn post 1975, Black wrote: I want to hear from fire today
Also do we think a massclaim hurts town or helps town here?
-NamelessPlural | Experimental alt of usesPython-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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im here
uhh initial thoughts
we have a vig, people said yesterday that vig = scum cook? but then cook walks back the bulletproof claim so does that still apply? or is she just doing that bc she realizes she's kinda screwed. but if she's scum bulletproof, why claim it in the first place? also hate the tracker outing but not sure if that's just bad play vs scummy
italiano claiming result on black second is annoying and probably scummy. i kinda think that if town does have all minus one of these roles and also a potential watcher out there, scum must have some power? such as a roleblocker of some kind? so it's weird to me that nobody was blocked. im not sure what that means if anything
i assume it's unlikely that black could be a scum tracker? idk if that's ever a scum role
i am not very confident in trying to mechsolve games at all but on play i still think italiano is scummy
i don't really trust flower tbh
i usually go to SS for mech takes and im not entirely sure if i trust him completely here but i think i do more than flower-
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fireisredsir Goodfellas/Rising Star
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In post 1597, Flower wrote:
Balance-wise Italiano locktown, Cook lockscum, Ausuka the claim is passableIn post 1595, KatyKimFanClub wrote: What do we think of the relative power level of the three roles claimed? Everything is conditional on something it seems.
Ausuka can be scum but I don't see a world where Cook is town and if Cook's trueclaiming that implies a vig that could be shooting with good info instead of wasting time doing nothing when Cook's BP after an Ausuka flipIn post 1591, Black wrote: I think there is at least one scum in the two and if you can somehow convince me it's not Ausuka I would be impressed
-AIn post 1609, Flower wrote:
Combination of him just doing his own thing outside of the Cook wagon that makes him feel unpaired (esp. the happy vote in 1440 that pretty obviously isn't going anywhere) and the claim being the most believable of the bunch. There's an element of pre-flip association with Cook in that read but even if she flips green I feel decent about himIn post 1606, Black wrote: Ok. So why do you think Italiano is locktown?
-AIn post 1684, Flower wrote:
If town has a 1-shot BP Rolecop then it makes negative sense setup wise for scum to have an Odd Night Neopolitan, if anything you'd expect it to be the other way around. If you think Italiano's trueclaiming he shouldn't be the lim until Cook gets flippedIn post 1631, fireisredsir wrote: ok im here
i think italiano is most likely scum of the three, i don't believe his claim
one point that idk if its been brought up but
if cook is town then having a town bulletproof rolecop means that basically anyone who claims after is probably going to be trueclaiming, i would expect? so i don't see why ausuka or italiano would be likely to fakeclaim here, i guess unless they thought it was the only option to prevent their own lim, and are just hoping the claim can buy them time to get a lim on cook. that seems fairly unlikely to me
and of those two claims i think odd night neapolitan sounds more likely to be a scum role than backup watcher
i guess it's possible cook is scum and both ausuka and italiano are town?? but idk i think italiano is scum either way, regardless of the alignment of other two
Regardless of alignment I don't lie about mech if I think someone might correctly contradict me. I know Invis/Black/happy from previous games so for that to be happening here I'd need to be scum with happy and also have assurance that the rest of the playerlist wont contradict me so probably at bare minimum Ausuka as wellIn post 1636, fireisredsir wrote: i am also kinda confused about why black says she is willing to trust flower here
flower feels like they're twisting mech for agenda purposes to me
idk how limming cook here makes the most sense ever mechanically, even if you scumread her
The lim is only bad for town if Cook is town, it's negative utility to keep a bp scum rolecop that'll lie about results and can't get vigged aliveIn post 1660, fireisredsir wrote:
like if you genuinely had this thought prior to just nowIn post 1657, Black wrote: I thought about that because I feel like Cook is the type of role that scum really want limmed. If she's town and telling the truth then they have to lim her. Flower is pushing awfully hard for the lim
then how does it follow that flower is good at mech
if scum really want to elim cook if she's town. and you were thinking about that. then doesn't that mean, without taking a read of cook into account, the lim is bad for town? and so it would be bad mechanically? and so the option that flower is pushing for may not actually be ideal?
Preferred lims for me are Cook >> Ausuka >>>>> Italiano and it's pretty dumb that over half the playerlist can agree that Cook's just scum here and then also be too afraid to vote her just cause she claimed Rolecop. More votes on Cook again please
-NamelessIn post 1689, Flower wrote:
You think Scum Odd Day Neopolitan in a Town 1-shot BP Rolecop game makes sense? Feels like there's a lack of scum power in that setupIn post 1688, Ausuka wrote: I don't really think Italiano bring scum neapolitan makes zero sense setup wise
-NamelessIn post 1691, Flower wrote:
Yeah but in that case to make the setup work it'd be even swingier than what Cook being real by herself would already imply since there'd be some do everything gigarole for scum to make it workIn post 1690, Ausuka wrote:
It doesn't make sense if that's the only scum pr but why would that be the caseIn post 1689, Flower wrote:
You think Scum Odd Day Neopolitan in a Town 1-shot BP Rolecop game makes sense? Feels like there's a lack of scum power in that setupIn post 1688, Ausuka wrote: I don't really think Italiano bring scum neapolitan makes zero sense setup wise
-Nameless
-NamelessIn post 1704, Flower wrote:
We're letting scum get away? LameIn post 1703, Black wrote: @Flower, Cook is not happening today
VOTE: Ausuka
Go hammer this Black Italiano is town
-AIn post 1709, Flower wrote:
I don't think you flip red here, I just think ItalianoIn post 1708, Ausuka wrote: Et tu flowerdefinitelyflips green though and I don't want to risk that going through when he's already E-1
-A
this is what i don't trust btwIn post 1858, Flower wrote:
Can't believe you didn't include me in the last team as well, so rudeIn post 1851, Asri Teroka wrote:
The current scumteams are ausuka/fire/flower flower/fire/cook ausuka/happy/flower and invisibility/Hu Tao/ItalianoVd and anyone who doesn't agree with that is a beautiful human beingIn post 1843, Ausuka wrote: I think of my wagon asri is probably the only one who I actively think is town
I'm sure people are going to suspect them for constantly changing their reads and acting like anyone who doesn't agree with {current scumteam here} is an idiot and I don't really blame you, good luck
Anyways Cook shouldn't be checking Ausuka/Italiano because:- If Cook is town then Ausuka is town (No reason to setup the Backup Watcher claim otherwise) and Italiano's probably scum fakeclaiming because too much investigative power otherwise so the check doesn't matter because it's still a 1f1 that has to get dealt with
- If Cook is scum then either Ausuka is scum and we won't get a real result or Ausuka is town and we wont be able to trust the result anyways. Italiano's locktown until massclaim in that case since otherwise the setup's kinda wack
-Nameless
- started out saying that off the claims, italiano was locktown and cook was lockscum
- follows up by saying that part of that is based on gameplay read and preflips, but thateven if she flips greenthey feel decent about him
- continues to argue that italiano shouldn't be limmed based on mechanics, and a couple arguments (which ausuka p quickly points out as faulty) about how his role doesn't make sense as scum if cook is town
- italiano is definitely green
and then finally at the end of the day when actually laying out the logic of the situation, they say that if cook flips town, italiano is probably scum
which goes pretty much counter to everything they were arguing initially and makes the rest feel like taking advantage of mech arguments to push an agenda
i don't think it's excusable as saying they had a strong scumread on cook and were allowing that preflip to influence their takes, bc they also specifically argued that italiano was still probtown even if cook was town, until it came to the end of the day
so im not really willing to trust flower's takes on mech at face value bc even giving maximum benefit of the doubt, they're allowing gameplay reads to influence the mech ideas that they're pushing. feels more to me like they're pushing agenda though, just in the kinda slimy way that they have framed arguments when talking to ausuka and black-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
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Haha, of course you did! What a wacky coincidence.In post 1963, ItalianoVD wrote: Ugh, this is why I hate this game sometimes. I targeted Black last not and my result was “not a vanilla townie”.
VOTE: ItalianoIt's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
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Why does scum-Cook tell everyone who the tracker is so the watcher knows who to be on?In post 1972, Flower wrote:
There's no world where Cook's town here, go re-read Ausukas mechposting where she says Cook's scum trueclaiming if there's a vig in the gameIn post 1969, Black wrote: If Cook is town, Flower and IVD are scum
If Cook is scum, I think IVD is town and Flower is probably town too
-NamelessIt's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!-
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Invisibility he or sheJack of All Tradeshe or she
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Invisibility he or sheJack of All Tradeshe or she
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@mod: v/la until monday I mean sorry whoopsInvisibility is actually AWESOME!-
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Flower They/ThemGoonThey/Them
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The slime's part of our charmIn post 1978, fireisredsir wrote: this is what i don't trust btw
- started out saying that off the claims, italiano was locktown and cook was lockscum
- follows up by saying that part of that is based on gameplay read and preflips, but thateven if she flips greenthey feel decent about him
- continues to argue that italiano shouldn't be limmed based on mechanics, and a couple arguments (which ausuka p quickly points out as faulty) about how his role doesn't make sense as scum if cook is town
- italiano is definitely green
and then finally at the end of the day when actually laying out the logic of the situation, they say that if cook flips town, italiano is probably scum
which goes pretty much counter to everything they were arguing initially and makes the rest feel like taking advantage of mech arguments to push an agenda
i don't think it's excusable as saying they had a strong scumread on cook and were allowing that preflip to influence their takes, bc they also specifically argued that italiano was still probtown even if cook was town, until it came to the end of the day
so im not really willing to trust flower's takes on mech at face value bc even giving maximum benefit of the doubt, they're allowing gameplay reads to influence the mech ideas that they're pushing. feels more to me like they're pushing agenda though, just in the kinda slimy way that they have framed arguments when talking to ausuka and black
Anyways I phoneposted 1858 40 minutes before the deadline so it didn't get my usual editing pass for sanity and for some reason I assumed the Watcher had to be real instead of Ausuka just being a Named Townie in that setup spec
In the scum!Flower game what do you think our motivation for coming into the game, suddenly reversing our slots read on Cook (I think? Italiano mentioned this but I haven't actually read what HPE posted) and then spending the rest of the game campaigning to get them limmed is?
I haven't ruled out Black also just being scum but regardless the setup doesn't work if the Watcher exists instead of Ausuka being a Named TownieIn post 1980, Something_Smart wrote: Why does scum-Cook tell everyone who the tracker is so the watcher knows who to be on?
-Nameless
VOTE: CookPlural | Experimental alt of usesPython-
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Flower They/ThemGoonThey/Them
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Did you miss the setup spec from Ausuka where Vig game = scum!Cook or do you actually believe Cooks new claim?In post 1979, Something_Smart wrote:
Haha, of course you did! What a wacky coincidence.In post 1963, ItalianoVD wrote: Ugh, this is why I hate this game sometimes. I targeted Black last not and my result was “not a vanilla townie”.
VOTE: Italiano
Cook either literally doesn't understand mech enough to know why 1-shot BP Rolecop is scummy (Certainly the persona she's got right now) or she's lying about not understanding (In which case I don't get the play but still scum). Over the night though even if her teammates are complete slankers they'd still have checked in long enough to explain to 0-mech Cook that if there's two kills her claim can't survive and she has to fakeclaim againIn post 1977, fireisredsir wrote: im here
uhh initial thoughts
we have a vig, people said yesterday that vig = scum cook? but then cook walks back the bulletproof claim so does that still apply? or is she just doing that bc she realizes she's kinda screwed. but if she's scum bulletproof, why claim it in the first place? also hate the tracker outing but not sure if that's just bad play vs scummy
The setup doesn't work if the Watcher is real and there's also the possibility that scum tried to Roleblock someone else hoping to hit the Vigilante which would save Cook at the cost of letting Italiano get a check offIn post 1977, fireisredsir wrote: italiano claiming result on black second is annoying and probably scummy. i kinda think that if town does have all minus one of these roles and also a potential watcher out there, scum must have some power? such as a roleblocker of some kind? so it's weird to me that nobody was blocked. im not sure what that means if anything
If Black is scum she's not Tracker (and her refusal to just post instead of waiting is giving me bad vibes since scum!Black can be stalling to figure out who's VT)In post 1977, fireisredsir wrote: i assume it's unlikely that black could be a scum tracker? idk if that's ever a scum role
If you don't know the mech go sheep Ausukas mechpostingIn post 1977, fireisredsir wrote: i am not very confident in trying to mechsolve games at all but on play i still think italiano is scummy
i don't really trust flower tbh
i usually go to SS for mech takes and im not entirely sure if i trust him completely here but i think i do more than flower
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
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I believe Cook's new claim. It makes much more sense in the setup than the old one (and than Italiano's claim) and the reasoning, while poor, is believable.In post 1984, Flower wrote: Did you miss the setup spec from Ausuka where Vig game = scum!Cook or do you actually believe Cooks new claim?It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!-
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Cook SheMafia ScumShe
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reasoning for faking 1sbp?Your friendly neighborhood chef and baker. LONG LIVE THE CHEFHAT REBELLION!
Cults With Guns //"ya true if you don't play mafia you are probably winning" – Alisae
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Flower They/ThemGoonThey/Them
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How would these posts be justified by an Ascetic Rolecop Cook?In post 1985, Something_Smart wrote:
I believe Cook's new claim. It makes much more sense in the setup than the old one (and than Italiano's claim) and the reasoning, while poor, is believable.In post 1984, Flower wrote: Did you miss the setup spec from Ausuka where Vig game = scum!Cook or do you actually believe Cooks new claim?
In post 1378, Cook wrote:
part of the reason i called BS on italiano's claimIn post 1377, iamveryhappy wrote: I even have a 14p game that has a 3v11 setup, this should be 3v10
on prs here I do agree the cook pr seems a bit too op, should be balanced by making other prs weaker
how many prs do we have here is the real question
I'm guessing three
how do I know this
I make setups and am p good at them
like look there in the future
Like a big part of why I'm scumreading Cook outside of mech is that these explanations make negative sense for me and I don't see how Cook comes to the conclusions there.In post 1384, Cook wrote: oh you haven't read that far back probably, nameless, but
i felt like mafia might be informed of my existence because of how strong i amIn post 112, Cook wrote:
agree andIn post 110, fireisredsir wrote: "defensive" is a bit of a weird read of that posti think that maybe my wagon knows something about me
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Cook SheMafia ScumShe
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i was committing to it. those were in fact plain lies. if mafia knew what i really was they would have killed me on the spot. but this was before mafia did nk's. i had no way of knowing if they were actually informed or notYour friendly neighborhood chef and baker. LONG LIVE THE CHEFHAT REBELLION!
Cults With Guns //"ya true if you don't play mafia you are probably winning" – Alisae
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Cook SheMafia ScumShe
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again i really think you're searching for reasons to get me killedYour friendly neighborhood chef and baker. LONG LIVE THE CHEFHAT REBELLION!
Cults With Guns //"ya true if you don't play mafia you are probably winning" – Alisae
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
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Yes.In post 1986, Cook wrote: reasoning for faking 1sbp?
I could have maybe understood simply claiming rolecop without any modifiers. But the 1sbp is inherently suspicious because it gives an excuse for why you aren't dying, and it screws up setup speculation.It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
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I mean Cook clearly wanted to appear to scum as a 1-shot BP rolecop. I don't see why those posts don't make sense as furthering that goal.In post 1987, Flower wrote: How would these posts be justified by an Ascetic Rolecop Cook?It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!-
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Cook SheMafia ScumShe
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specifically here's what went through my head:In post 1990, Something_Smart wrote:
Yes.In post 1986, Cook wrote: reasoning for faking 1sbp?
I could have maybe understood simply claiming rolecop without any modifiers. But the 1sbp is inherently suspicious because it gives an excuse for why you aren't dying, and it screws up setup speculation.
"oh! i'm ascetic. that means that i can't be protected. thus i will get nightkilled if i have to claim. so i almost need to play scummy town so that i avoid getting killed by mafia at least for one day. i will claim 1-shot bulletproof, because then that won't waste a protective trying to prot me if i claim, since they won't do anything vis a vis my asceticism. this will also keep the mafia off of me, since i will be a useless kill. perfect. i will fake this and then clear things up later."Your friendly neighborhood chef and baker. LONG LIVE THE CHEFHAT REBELLION!
Cults With Guns //"ya true if you don't play mafia you are probably winning" – Alisae
Inventor of 3d20 //Successful Rebellion Leader//-
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Black if you tracked S_S staying home can you come out with this information now before I get into a tunnel here?In post 1953, Black wrote: Hmm. Ok. Let me think on this. I'm not going to reveal right now so just give it some time
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You really think Cook and I arethisincompetent as scum? Or what exactly do you think our grand plan is?It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
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Or are you just unable to comprehend how anyone could see things differently from you?It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!-
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Something_Smart He/himSomewhat_BalancedHe/him
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Not trying to be insulting, but I really want to know what here makes you want to tunnel me. Because it seems like you're just being tribalistic and going after people who disagree with you.It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!-
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