Open 879: Fire and More Fire [game over]

[The Bulge]

The Bulge - Apparently, the main thrust of Bulge's scum read on me was my leading question at Ausuka. I had thought there was a significant portion to do with the mech speak accusation, but on reread it does seem very reasonable that that callout was nonspecific and not actually aimed at me. Bulge's accusation that it's ridiculous I would think so is, imo, silly, since his clarification that it wasn't actually about mechspeak was directly quoting a post about people specifically calling me out for mechspeak. The implication there, to me, was that the 388 was in fact singling me out. I don't really think that is unreasonable. Of the people voting me, I think this is the worst vote, but I don't particularly think it makes Bulge scum.

i don't think it's ridiculous you interpreted it that way, i think it's perfectly reasonable. but what i'm seeing is defensiveness, bad faith readings of several points against you, plus what i've talked about [enough already] regarding a lack of authentic scumhunting

[The Bulge]

you say it's the worst vote on you, so do you refute my reasoning as i just explained it? i think my vote on the wagon has the most substance to it by far, what makes it worse than a purported omgus vote, a bad meta case, and a sheep?

[The Bulge]

if your wagon is townlead, with ausuka as the most likely scum, what do you think is more likely: that scum is scumreading you? biding their time? pushing elsewhere?

[The Bulge]

the other scummos not presently on your wagon, i mean

[Skygazer]

oh gosh i might not be able to post today

[Skygazer]

havin a good come up tho

[Black]

oh gosh i might not be able to post today

I hope you have a good day! <3

[Bingle]

So, tl;dr: Meuh's 'progression' on Ausuka doesn't feel natural. It doesn't really feel like a reaction to Ausuka's actual play. It feels instead like Meuh feels she HAS to be defensive of Ausuka. I'm not sure if this is a WK situation or a lover situation, but I DO think that if someone thinks Ausuka is scum, Meuh is a far better option. If Meuh is town, then her defense of ausuka means more. If she's scum paired with ausuka, ausuka will become irrelevant when Meuh dies. If she's scum not paired with ausuka, we can then work on figuring out whether the townread was real or a ruse in an attempt to look town.

Spoiler:

VOTE: towel

I am a big believer in omgus theory

Getting town Ausuka energy here but I've never played with her as scum so I'm not sure what I should even be looking for

This seems like a very trite nonread. The acknowledgement that Meuh's meta on ausuka is weak and vague, one sided, and completely uninformed by ausuka's scumplay is very undermining of the read itself, but then literally everything afterwards makes it feel incredibly out of place. Meuh isn't sure of her ability to catch ausuka, until she's suddenly incredibly sure of her ability to read ausuka.

Ausuka's interactions with Bingle feel very reminiscent of Ausuka in the other games I've played with her
Her gameplay in general does tbh
Either she's very good at emulating it or she's just town again, willing to assume the latter for now

VOTE: Ausuka

I want to help Bingle's cause here. I don't really think she was signaling tbh, and my first impression from Ausuka's posts was that she felt confident in what she was saying. Initially I liked this but after reading over her ISO the confidence reads little scummy to me. Part of this has to do with me personally being more confident when I'm scum, and I know I can't really accurately apply that to other people but I want to push this gut feeling and this wagon anyway

Ausuka joins game -> rolls town -> gets into 1v1 early on in day 1 -> OMGUSes the other player in the 1v1 -> gets scumread for confidence and for her behaviour in those interactions -> eventually flips -> flips town -> Ausuka joins game -> rolls town -> gets into 1v1 early on in day 1 -> OMGUSes the other player in the 1v1 -> gets scumread for confidence and for her behaviour in those interactions -> eventually flips -> flips town -> Ausuka joins game -> rolls town -> gets into 1v1 early on in day 1 -> OMGUSes the other player in the 1v1 -> gets scumread for confidence and for her behaviour in those interactions -> eventually flips -> flips town -> Ausuka joins game -> rolls town -> gets into 1v1 early on in day 1 -> OMGUSes the other player in the 1v1 -> gets scumread for confidence and for her behaviour in those interactions -> eventually flips -> flips town -> Ausuka joins game -> rolls town -> gets into 1v1 early on in day 1 -> OMGUSes the other player in the 1v1 -> gets scumread for confidence and for her behaviour in those interactions -> eventually flips -> flips town -> Ausuka joins game -> rolls town -> gets into 1v1 early on in day 1 -> OMGUSes the other player in the 1v1 -> gets scumread for confidence and for her behaviour in those interactions -> eventually flips -> flips town ->

The growth in confidence doesn't seem warranted. The exaggeration here is explicitly exaggeration. Meuh has seen two Ausuka games. Literally two. This post is 6 iterations. Saying that that isn't a ridiculous exaggeration is laughable.

At least one scum on Ausuka, scum loveeeeee jumping on the classic day 1 Ausuka wagon (which I would know because I have)

Not only is this flawed, (other people will act the way I do because I act that way) but it doesn't really lead anywhere. Meuh does push at Black, but that was limp and later characterized as mostly for pressure. I think, if Meuh actually thought there was a very strong likelihood that scum were pushing Ausuka, attempts to sort umlaut and drew have been... not at all there. In fact, Meuh's take on Drew is: "That sure is a Drew post." That doesn't seem like someone thinking drew is a high priority sort.

Played with her twice, she was town both times and this happened in both games, sure she could still be theoretically scum but it's enough to find the Ausuka wagon bad

So this only happened twice? Ok so it is an exaggeration

Ausuka getting into spicy 1v1s early on in day 1, getting voted by the other player in the 1v1 and OMGUSing them, then getting scumread for her confidence in that situation is a specific enough thing that I think twice in two games is enough to form a pattern? Or do I need a 50 game sample size? Calling this an exaggeration feels like an exaggeration

No it doesn't? It feels like literally the truth.

VOTE: Meuh

I’ll probably do a readslist tonight.

Pedit: I think both Meuh and merlyn are defending ausuka much more strongly than anything ausuka’s done merits, FWIW.

Yeah but, but it's not really whether Ausuka deserves to be defended because she's posting so town, it's that the arguments being made against her are full of holes.

Exaaaaaaaaactly

The 'cases' on Ausuka:

I was pinged by an RVS phase post.
Umlaut thinks that Ausuka hasn't done much to be worth townreading.
Black thinks that Ausuka's confidence is ill supported, which according to Meuh is... true. Ausuka according to the two games that somehow result in a 6 iteration loop, usually comes across as overconfident.
Drew is sheeping.

I can understand not being convinced by any of these (or all of these) but 'full of holes' is a pretty strong stance. And also, Meuh doesn't dispute that Ausuka hasn't done much to be townread. Her defense basically sums up to "Ausuka is usually pushed as town".

In addition to Meuh's interactions with Ausuka, I think the specific push against Sky is telling as well. It's not completely irrelevant that Sky was wrong about having WK'd ausuka to Sky's alignment. It is completely bullshit that Sky not having WK'd Ausuka means scumMeuh wouldn't want to WK Ausuka. And the Sky push feels to me like a severe deflection from that. I feel like it's previous obvious that Meuh WOULD benefit from protecting scumpartner Ausuka. I feel like it's pretty obvious that scumMeuh WOULD benefit from Ausukatown or Ausukaotherscum. And I absolutely think that the unnatural progression from Meuh looks like WKing.

[Bingle]

you say it's the worst vote on you, so do you refute my reasoning as i just explained it? i think my vote on the wagon has the most substance to it by far, what makes it worse than a purported omgus vote, a bad meta case, and a sheep?

Worst in the sense that of the four votes, I see the most scum intention behind it, which is not much. OMGUS votes are generally NAI, I think Vizzy's blind sheeping is actually pretty towny, and I think Firebringers shitcase is actually very towny.

[Bingle]

if your wagon is townlead, with ausuka as the most likely scum, what do you think is more likely: that scum is scumreading you? biding their time? pushing elsewhere?

I'd expect that they're mostly staying out of it. If I get flipped today, I think the people on that wagon would be under a lot of scrutiny. I don't think that makes sense to look for scumreads.

Compare Drew/Meuh/Rat and the people who are basically ignoring the wagon entirely.

They're all kind of just dancing around my wagon, not committing to it but also not really condemning it. I think that's where scum likely is.

[Bingle]

but what i'm seeing is defensiveness, bad faith readings of several points against you, plus what i've talked about [enough already] regarding a lack of authentic scumhunting

I think the first is true. I have been defensive about people calling me out for mechspeak, but mostly because I explicitly don't think that's a thing I'm doing this game and it irks me that people are pushing me for a thing that I always get pushed for despite it being entirely NAI for me when I'm not even doing it in the first place.

I don't think anything I've done has been a bad faith reading of a point against me. It's entirely possible I've been misreading points against me, and I've been answering with more than my usual level of snark, but I don't think any of it was bad faith.

I also don't think I've been lacking in the scumhunting arena, and would be interested in why you think my scumhunting compares unfavorably with say, Ausuka. In fact I'd go so far as to say that I'm probably being one of the most proactive players about trying to work out other player's alignments, along the same levels as you, Black, and Umlaut. It's less than historical for me, but I've also been sick and have had less time to devote to mafia in general over the last month historically.

[Bingle]

Hope you're ok Bingle!

I'll be fine. I just made the questionable decision of buying a fruit cup from their grab-n-go because I didn't have time for lunch and have been paying for it. Thanks for the thoughts though!

[Doctor Drew]

I haven't been dancing around the Bingle wagon, I have been pretty clear I don't think anything they have done seems scummy and I don't have any interest in joining it.

I do find it strange that Bingle includes me in the group that is 'dancing around' the wagon.

[Bingle]

I haven't been dancing around the Bingle wagon, I have been pretty clear I don't think anything they have done seems scummy and I don't have any interest in joining it.

Sure you have. You've not had any interest in joining it, but that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't think scum will really want to hop on my wagon here. You also haven't done any real defending of me, which is reasonable. I don't particularly scumread your lack of involvement in the wagon, but it is where I expect scum to be atm. Similarly, Meuh also doesn't 'have any interest in joining it'. Compare: Umlaut and Merlyn actively defending me, although not particularly strongly.

[Merlyn]

Hope you're ok Bingle!

I'll be fine. I just made the questionable decision of buying a fruit cup from their grab-n-go because I didn't have time for lunch and have been paying for it. Thanks for the thoughts though!

ugh! food poisoning is the worst, feel better soon

[Doctor Drew]

I haven't been dancing around the Bingle wagon, I have been pretty clear I don't think anything they have done seems scummy and I don't have any interest in joining it.

Sure you have. You've not had any interest in joining it, but that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't think scum will really want to hop on my wagon here. You also haven't done any real defending of me, which is reasonable. I don't particularly scumread your lack of involvement in the wagon, but it is where I expect scum to be atm. Similarly, Meuh also doesn't 'have any interest in joining it'. Compare: Umlaut and Merlyn actively defending me, although not particularly strongly.

I am sure Bulge remembers from Fire and Ice python basically said the same thing(in a much more condescending tone) that not hard defending a town read(or in this case a not scum read) is a bad look.

I don't get that.

Unless I have a hard town read on you, or am informed you are town, I won't hard defend you. I will like to look elsewhere, I will be vocal that I will most likely not join the wagon, but I definitely have been wrong so if the wotc is that you have done the most scummy things, I won't throw myself in front of the train for you(obviously can be dependent on who is driving the wagon as well.....but on D1 I am going to not pay too much attention to that, need some information before there is some hard reads).

But enough about you(also not sure why, but triscuits are my jam when my tum tum wants to yeet all contents in all directions).

Merlyn, I hope you are here.....you voted me but really haven't mentioned me as of late. I believe you did say you don't like the Bingle wagon.....but I don't think I know your thoughts on others.....what do you think of Bulge pushing hard on them.

Osuka, you are completely different than I remember. You really seem to be playing it safe and yes.....are way less aggressive. This doesn't ping right to me.

Ausuka, why do you disagree? You were in the same game with Osuka and I, you cannot say they are the same here.

[Merlyn]

I'm very meh about you right now. Of the three wagons you're still the one I'd pick but I'm not as confident as I'd like to be. It's probably time for a readslist if I can summon up the energy.

[Umlaut]

oh gosh i might not be able to post today

havin a good come up tho

Please give a report on how it went when you get a chance!

[Umlaut]

I feel like "everyone on my wagon is town" is not the readlist Bingle comes up with if they are just making things up to sound towny

[Doctor Drew]

I feel like "everyone on my wagon is town" is not the readlist Bingle comes up with if they are just making things up to sound towny

See this is the thing, everything that people(like here) are using to town read Bingle, is NAI stuff.

Everything that people are using to scum read Bingle, is NAI stuff.

I know how wishy washy and non-commital I am coming off in regards to them.......but I just find it odd that they are the lightning rod here.

I have felt that there is scum on the wagon of them(Ausuka and/or Bulge), but I kinda feel there could also be an over correction on the other side and those defending Bingle could be scum either hoping to look towny, or thought they saw a signal.

And then there is me with my tinfoil hat lol.......this was kind of a stream of consciousness post. But I just can't understand why Bingle is at the center of everything.

I will say, Umlaut......in the Scotch Pocket tonight was some actually some Angels Envy bourbon. Always yummy.

[Radical Rat]

Alright, tell ya what.

VOTE: Cook

Is anyone actually townreading Cook here? I recognize she hasn't done much of anything TO read, but I don't think it's a coincidence that she was present for RVS, then vanished once things got serious, in combination with the delicious pre-flip associative from towwl.

[Radical Rat]

hey cook what are your thoughts on the leading wagons

i like all three but i think we're gonna mislim somehow

could osuka be defending the mechtalkers be anything of substance

also i'm liking the bulge but i'd like to point out that discussing that as a scum tactic is in of itself doing the same thing it claims to condemn: speaking in hypotheticals

hot take the quiet players are all vts

Also here's a collection of her handful of posts that I don't like.

[Bingle]

I’d be interested in Ausuka/Merlyn takes on meuhs response to sg being you didn’t wk ausuka compared to scum wouldn’t wk ausuka.

[Datisi]

beep

[Datisi]

boop