Mini Normal 2303 [Postgame!!!!]

[Flower]

No chance in hell we read this entire thing before the deadline so we're just gonna read from post 1000 onward. Anything anyone needs from us before that?

-Nameless

[Flower]

Spoiler: 1000-1100

I fell asleep last night.

Ok, so I decided to iso Black since I thought I would gain a lot from their interactions w/ Ausuka and Asri? It doesn't seem like I really have any support wrt iamveryhappy so I don't think there's a point reading again. I also chose Black because they're one of the few players that had an opinion of me this game and I just wanted to see if I could find enough context behind it.

92: RVS
207: I find myself nodding at a lot of these comments. I wonder if they could be interpreted as Black buddying (am I even using this word right?) HPE since it starts with reasons for suspicion and ends with a slight townread.
208 221 So this is where Black townreads Ausuka and the table is set for trouble to begin. I don't think it's unreasonable for Black to townread here, but I've talked previously about how disagreeing doesn't necessary mean opposing teams and so I don't know if agreeing makes someone automatically towny. I will say that Black said she agreed with Ausuka's thought process which I think is very town of Black.
264 Here Black responds to Asri doubting her read on Ausuka.
298 I think I missed this post when it was originally made. I really love this post because Black is really aware of the change from Asri's perspective and is confused by it. I personally wouldn't have brought it up as town and it's at this point in my reading that I know that Black is a really good player who from my perspective is leaning town.
478 This post in addition to 495 I interpret as town leaning because at the time there was no significant reason for Black to change their view of Ausuka. It could be I'm missing something because of how I'm only reading Black's posts. I think it's Black's genuine attempts to create a clear picture of what's going on.
585 So I asked for Black to read Italiano and Black returns with a scumread. It's interesting because basically right after this there's a lot of heat on Black and right before it there's a third vote on Cook? I don't think it's a distraction post or anything though because there were other spots in the game (like when Cook had 5 votes or something) where Black could have made any sort of move. In fact, they were very supportive of the wagon on Cook.
670 I really like how Black plays defense this game. I feel like if I were mafia I would be pushing harder on Italiano or Ausuka here but Black is very inquisitive and her interactions with Cook in later posts make a lot of sense to me. In particular, she comes across as kind of standoff-ish which tonally makes sense? I could just be so wrong with all of my reads here y'all.
750 I would have the same reaction as Black here to Asri's comments. I think if anything this game Black has been very coherent and explained their reasoning. She has been very consistent which makes the comment that Asri is seeing what they want to see exactly what town would say imo.
844 Does it make sense for Black to not have a read on Cook after interacting with Cook a few posts earlier? I think I buy that because at the time they mentioned how Cook was a null read and I don't think anything really happened besides some clarification of things between the two?
922 I don't get this post for two reasons. One, because what would the scumteam be then if it's both Cook and Asri? Doesn't Black have enough scumreads? Two, because Black mentioned how they thought Asri was probably annoying town earlier in the day (791) and there was no pressure on Asri at the time?
789 Lol'ed

Adding it all up, I really do think Black is town. There are multiple factors that I talked about but the sense I get from her posts is just that at the end of the day she has been trying to reduce the amount of chaos going on and has interacted in reasonable ways with too many people. Because of my opinion from this, I kind of think Asri is kind of town too?

Of course the first piece of content is a ISO wallpost. Pain

208/221 - Both of these posts are pretty scummy to me. 208's the kind of thing where I don't get how it'd lead to a mindmeld tr when it seems pretty NAI and 221's filler as hell
264 - Yeah that makes 208 look better
298 - Solid post
750 - Asri's literally voting for Black there lmao

I will say that Black said she agreed with Ausuka's thought process which I think is very town of Black.

Why is that very town of black?

Also @black, i forgot to bring this up earlier but why would this game have 2 scum?

It was the most "town" reasoning for townreading someone at that point in the game that I can think of. So it leans town to me. I'm not sure if that makes sense. My main distinction was that Black says she agrees with your thought process, which is different than agreeing with your conclusion. I think that's exactly what I was sort of trying to do in my entire post which is look to see if Black's actions make sense from a thought process standpoint.

Solid post

Like if you are this unsure about Ausuka why have you not engaged with them at all?

Like if you are this unsure about Ausuka why have you not engaged with them at all?

i don't always find engagement to be the easiest way to sort people

with ausuka

i hit submit early

but i was gonna say that i thought it would be more useful to wait and watch and see how things developed

i have found lately that with people i know well (not all i guess, but some) im actually generally better at reading them if i am more disconnected from them, like when reading from spec or something

I guess that's fair. I think I'm just not a fan of how you two have interacted with each other, which really is a lack of interaction. You are both in each other's "sus" category yet it doesn't seem like either of you are that interested in solving the other

I'll townbin Black for this, especially if Arsi flips green. Black's normally got that pretty laid back neutral vibe and if she's scum here then votes wise I don't see the point of setting this up as scum when there's like 2-3 other people with actual wagons going

Spoiler: 1100-1200

1101 - Wait did Italiano already claim? Can someone post the claims we already had? Anyways ok post but having read absolutely nothing from Italiano the section on him feels very
1117 - I haven't read any of happys posts this game but +town
1154 - Based also I feel called out
1157 - Huh?

Anyways I'm just gonna sheep Black here, pretty sure she's town and her reads are usually on point

VOTE: Cook

-Nameless

[Flower]

Ok I've read 1200 onwards, my brain is mush and I have no opinions on anything said during that time period

-Nameless

[Flower]

flower what are your opinions on me, not just looking at post 1117
take a break but
you may answer me later but just get it answered
well it's definitey better than 2120 kek

null town, haven't seen anything really townie or scummy from you from what I've read. I don't like your 1284 and 1313 but I think you'd be aware enough as scum to not be blatantly PR hunting like this in thread

-Nameless

[Flower]

At this point i'm probably just waiting for cook to claim lole

fine

1-shot bulletproof rolecop

do you SEE why it’s a bad idea

Is that 1-shot bulletproof ungated rolecop, 1-shot rolecop ungated bulletproof, or 1-shot bulletproof 1-shot rolecop?

[Flower]

Setup spec wise if you're real it'd imply either 3+ scum or in the 2 scum case it'd imply negative utility town PR, Ascetic Mafia/Roleblocker/some other way to prevent you from getting results, or you're the only town PR. I don't buy the claim.

-Nameless

[Flower]

I even have a 14p game that has a 3v11 setup, this should be 3v10
on prs here I do agree the cook pr seems a bit too op, should be balanced by making other prs weaker
how many prs do we have here is the real question
I'm guessing three
how do I know this
I make setups and am p good at them

part of the reason i called BS on italiano's claim

like look there in the future

Wait you thought it was 10/3 but 1-shot bulletproof Rolecop + 2x Masons would make the game unbalanced? Masons should have been possible from your point of view, it'd only be nonsense in 11/2 (And even then it could work depending on Mafia PRs)

-Nameless

[Flower]

that's two townies who can communicate plus a rolecop who doesn't need a prot role to stay alive, right?

Yeah, that's roughly balanced for 10/3 with either full Goon (So that you're mostly useless if it's

only

you + Masons) or Roleblocker/1-shot Strongman (So that mafia can deal with you claiming)

-Nameless

[Flower]

Is rolecop actually a powerful role, though

I really don't think it is

1-shot bp is a bit stronger but mostly the role just seems *weird* rather than overpowered

It'd depend on the scum roles I think, if scum have obviously scummy roles like Strongman/Ninja it'd be pretty decent

UNVOTE: Cook

I don't like the claim, I don't like the explanations, consider my vote spiritually here until I have time to read the first ~15 pages tomorrow to see if what Cook's talking about here makes sense with the Mason reaction and the "Oh scum on my wagon know something about me"

-Nameless

[Flower]

VOTE: Cook

The "Scum know something about my wagon" only works if scum are Informed that you are a PR in which case even in a basically vanilla scum game you thinking 1-shot bp rolecop + 2x Mason vs Informed Mafia in 10/3 is somehow townsided makes negative sense and it also makes negative sense for scum to try to wagon a PR instead of just shooting you at night. At a bare minimum either the "Scum know something" or the Mason overreaction isn't genuine.

Ausuka I don't think it actually matters at this point if the game could be balanced around a town 1-shot bp rolecop because the explanation given after the claim is scummy af and she's probably not getting any useful results. I think Cook being a Mafia 1-shot bp rolecop is pretty likely

-Nameless

[Flower]

Also design-wise even if town 1-shot bp rolecop can be balanced how would you even get to the idea of it instead of something more normal? Like you'd start with

Town Rolecop

9x Vanilla Town

3x Mafia Goon

Then you have to give the Rolecop a scummy role to find so maybe Roleblocker or Ninja

Town Rolecop

9x Vanilla Town

Mafia Ninja

2x Mafia Goon

So to make the Ninja do stuff we'd then add a Watcher or Tracker

Town Rolecop

Town Tracker

8x Vanilla Town

Mafia Ninja

2x Mafia Goon

From here I don't see the logical progression to making the Rolecop 1-shot BP. There's no role or modifier there that makes me go "Oh yeah then make the rolecop 1-shot BP to make the setup make sense"

-Nameless

[Flower]

Oh bulletproof rolecop claim from Cook? That’s like the most mafia role you can claim.

I’m not good with mechanics so I’m not gonna try to figure out anything out. I don’t think the claim changes much for me because of the fact it is a very scum-oriented role, both of them actually.

No, rolecops can be town. It is one-shot, and the bp one-shot. Sure not a useful role and town might have neglected to mentioned the bp aspect and maybe made their role more appealing to draw the NK.

Cook will be a simple slot to resolve in the future though, this one isn't sure why everyone keeps piling on there.

At this point i'm probably just waiting for cook to claim lole

fine

1-shot bulletproof rolecop

do you SEE why it’s a bad idea

Is that 1-shot bulletproof ungated rolecop, 1-shot rolecop ungated bulletproof, or 1-shot bulletproof 1-shot rolecop?

i survive one nightkill, and i can check people at night to see their role (but not alignment)

The rolecop is ungated, only the BP is 1-shot

[Flower]

Spoiler:

Also design-wise even if town 1-shot bp rolecop can be balanced how would you even get to the idea of it instead of something more normal? Like you'd start with

Town Rolecop

9x Vanilla Town

3x Mafia Goon

Then you have to give the Rolecop a scummy role to find so maybe Roleblocker or Ninja

Town Rolecop

9x Vanilla Town

Mafia Ninja

2x Mafia Goon

So to make the Ninja do stuff we'd then add a Watcher or Tracker

Town Rolecop

Town Tracker

8x Vanilla Town

Mafia Ninja

2x Mafia Goon

From here I don't see the logical progression to making the Rolecop 1-shot BP. There's no role or modifier there that makes me go "Oh yeah then make the rolecop 1-shot BP to make the setup make sense"

-Nameless

I mean you would need a strongman I think

Town Watcher
Town Backup Watcher
Town 1-shot Bulletproof Rolecop
Town Indecisive Doctor

Mafia 2-shot Ninja
Mafia 2-shot Strongman
Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker

I imagine you would just add roles that the strongman would be useful against and then go "lol let's make the rolecop bp"

I guess this is all just speculation

Do you actually think this is a realistic possibility over the way likelier chance that it's a vig game with scum!cook? If not why are you letting her get a chance to rolecop town when she's pretty obviously scum?

Also the point wasn't that you can't make town 1-shot bp rolecop but that in order for that setup to happen you either start with the premise of "I want a Town 1-shot BP Rolecop" and work the setup around it (Weird) or you implement 1-shot bp and strongman at the same time (Weirder because why bother instead of just making it no bp no strongman)

-A

[Flower]

I mean, it's just an example. I'm not saying the setup has to be exactly that, I'm saying it's possible for the role to exist in a setup built around a town rolecop. I think the possibility cook is town and we can get utility is more important than a mafia rolecop shot which is like, not great for us but ultimately I don't think it's that big of a deal

How likely is Cook flipping green in your eyes?

-A

[Flower]

Maybe like 50/50? She's certainly suspicious and I think is considerably >rand scum but it's hard to be sure about anything on d1 and people who don't make sense flip town sometimes

Ok then how about we flip Cook for being obvscum and go solve the game from there?

-A

[Flower]

Is it possible Cook would be our only investigative role? I personally don't think we should vote for her because it might be really hard to find scum this game.

In a setup where Town 1-shot BP Rolecop makes sense there's also very likely other mid to low power investigative roles like Tracker/Watcher/Weak Visitor/Backup/Whatever

This is why I prefer dayplay over mechanics.

Just vote Cook then

-A

[Flower]

btw since I've seen basically nothing from T3 what's the case there? I find it pretty sus that Invis and Ausuka both think Cook's gigascum and then vote the biggest counterwagon instead just cause they want Rolecop results

-A

[Flower]

btw since I've seen basically nothing from T3 what's the case there? I find it pretty sus that Invis and Ausuka both think Cook's gigascum and then vote the biggest counterwagon instead just cause they want Rolecop results

-A

Ausuka feels good and doesn't necessarily think Cook is giga scum, you misrepresent.

T3 can be town.

Invisibility and ItalianoVD have high team equity.

I mean, it's just an example. I'm not saying the setup has to be exactly that, I'm saying it's possible for the role to exist in a setup built around a town rolecop. I think the possibility cook is town and we can get utility is more important than a mafia rolecop shot which is like, not great for us but ultimately I don't think it's that big of a deal

How likely is Cook flipping green in your eyes?

-A

Maybe like 50/50? She's certainly suspicious and I think is considerably >rand scum but it's hard to be sure about anything on d1 and people who don't make sense flip town sometimes

Yeah ISOing T3 they're a lurker and I'm fine with leaving them for later

-A

[Flower]

Ok so when I checked in yesterday I missed that Cook claimed

Why is no one seeing how scummy Ausuka is posturing around this flip? Before Cook even claimed Ausuka was talking about letting the Cook slot resolve itself even though Ausuka clearly thought the slot was scummy. Ausuka has been riding the fence on this flip for days now. She knows Cook is going to flip town and that's why she has been so reluctant to hop on

People that are saying "oh Ausuka feels good" or "Ausuka feels town". No shit. Players that are good at this game are generally going to feel like they're town when they're scum

If no one wants to help me lim Ausuka then I'll figure out what to do with my vote before the deadline hits

I'd prefer a Cook lim today but I wont say no to an Ausuka lim, you've got my EOD compromise vote there

-A

[Flower]

UNVOTE: Cook
VOTE: Ausuka

[Flower]

UNVOTE: Ausuka
VOTE: Cook

[Flower]

Can we just kill Cook already? Ausukas post claim reactions make sense with being Backup Watcher so I don't want that lim anymore and I trust the low power 5 billion restrictions on when you can PR from Italiano way more than I do Cook's gigarole when both would serve the same purpose in the game

-A

[Flower]

Can we just kill Cook already? Ausukas post claim reactions make sense with being Backup Watcher so I don't want that lim anymore and I trust the low power 5 billion restrictions on when you can PR from Italiano way more than I do Cook's gigarole when both would serve the same purpose in the game

-A

You actually believe this claim?

It makes Ausukas posting make more sense, if she's scum she would have had to be preparing it since 1390. That's good enough for me to leave it for later when Cook's gigascum

-A

[Flower]

I can't believe you all are cool with scum Ausuka just drifting right by you

It's less anything to do with Ausuka specifically and more that town!Cook makes negative sense and I'm not cool with people letting scum!Cook drift by.

Outside of the Ausuka/Cook interactions what makes you think Cook is town?

-A

[Flower]

Did I miss why you think Cook is so scummy? What makes the Cook lim better than an Ausuka one?

It's a combination of the role being scummy (Like compare 1-shot BP Rolecop to Odd Night Neopolitan) and the attempt to justify the claim after the fact wrt the Mason reaction and the "Scum on my wagon know something" feeling like something that was thought of after the fact instead of being genuine in 1378 and 1384

-A

[Flower]

To clarify I haven't read pretty much anything before 1000 outside of people quoting/directing me to posts so I'm pretty sure I missed most of the Ausuka/Cook interactions you're talking about

-A

[Flower]

What do we think of the relative power level of the three roles claimed? Everything is conditional on something it seems.

Balance-wise Italiano locktown, Cook lockscum, Ausuka the claim is passable

I think there is at least one scum in the two and if you can somehow convince me it's not Ausuka I would be impressed

Ausuka can be scum but I don't see a world where Cook is town and if Cook's trueclaiming that implies a vig that could be shooting with good info instead of wasting time doing nothing when Cook's BP after an Ausuka flip

-A

[Flower]

I wanna say though that I think Ausuka's role makes sense as a scum role depending on the setup. I could be wrong but I think making it so the scum team gets an investigative role like that after the town version dies is pretty funny design. Depending on the other roles I feel like it could make sense balance-wise turning a goon into a PR

If Ausuka's scum she's fakeclaiming here. Even a straight up Watcher is pretty unusual for scum, a Mafia Backup Watcher that procs off a Town Watcher makes negative sense (Like yeah it's possible to make it a workable setup but I'd give that Four Question Marks out of Normal on the weirdness scale)

-A

[Flower]

Ok. So why do you think Italiano is locktown?

Combination of him just doing his own thing outside of the Cook wagon that makes him feel unpaired (esp. the happy vote in 1440 that pretty obviously isn't going anywhere) and the claim being the most believable of the bunch. There's an element of pre-flip association with Cook in that read but even if she flips green I feel decent about him

-A

[Flower]

This one is still against limming any investigative claim on the first day. Going for the backup is a half measure, but at this point this one sees no other compromise.

What's going to happen is that scum are just going to claim roleblocked or call a random townie vanilla and keep the actual results in the PT, stop being so copbrained and just lim scum

-A

[Flower]

ok im here

i think italiano is most likely scum of the three, i don't believe his claim

one point that idk if its been brought up but

if cook is town then having a town bulletproof rolecop means that basically anyone who claims after is probably going to be trueclaiming, i would expect? so i don't see why ausuka or italiano would be likely to fakeclaim here, i guess unless they thought it was the only option to prevent their own lim, and are just hoping the claim can buy them time to get a lim on cook. that seems fairly unlikely to me

and of those two claims i think odd night neapolitan sounds more likely to be a scum role than backup watcher

i guess it's possible cook is scum and both ausuka and italiano are town?? but idk i think italiano is scum either way, regardless of the alignment of other two

If town has a 1-shot BP Rolecop then it makes negative sense setup wise for scum to have an Odd Night Neopolitan, if anything you'd expect it to be the other way around. If you think Italiano's trueclaiming he shouldn't be the lim until Cook gets flipped

i am also kinda confused about why black says she is willing to trust flower here

flower feels like they're twisting mech for agenda purposes to me

idk how limming cook here makes the most sense ever mechanically, even if you scumread her

Regardless of alignment I don't lie about mech if I think someone might correctly contradict me. I know Invis/Black/happy from previous games so for that to be happening here I'd need to be scum with happy and also have assurance that the rest of the playerlist wont contradict me so probably at bare minimum Ausuka as well

I thought about that because I feel like Cook is the type of role that scum really want limmed. If she's town and telling the truth then they have to lim her. Flower is pushing awfully hard for the lim

like if you genuinely had this thought prior to just now

then how does it follow that flower is good at mech

if scum really want to elim cook if she's town. and you were thinking about that. then doesn't that mean, without taking a read of cook into account, the lim is bad for town? and so it would be bad mechanically? and so the option that flower is pushing for may not actually be ideal?

The lim is only bad for town if Cook is town, it's negative utility to keep a bp scum rolecop that'll lie about results and can't get vigged alive

---

Preferred lims for me are Cook >> Ausuka >>>>> Italiano and it's pretty dumb that over half the playerlist can agree that Cook's just scum here and then also be too afraid to vote her just cause she claimed Rolecop. More votes on Cook again please
-Nameless

[Flower]

I don't really think Italiano bring scum neapolitan makes zero sense setup wise

You think Scum Odd Day Neopolitan in a Town 1-shot BP Rolecop game makes sense? Feels like there's a lack of scum power in that setup

-Nameless

[Flower]

I don't really think Italiano bring scum neapolitan makes zero sense setup wise

You think Scum Odd Day Neopolitan in a Town 1-shot BP Rolecop game makes sense? Feels like there's a lack of scum power in that setup

-Nameless

It doesn't make sense if that's the only scum pr but why would that be the case

Yeah but in that case to make the setup work it'd be even swingier than what Cook being real by herself would already imply since there'd be some do everything gigarole for scum to make it work

-Nameless

[Flower]

Not really? Scum just need a gated strongman and it's fine

The problem with the BP rolecop isn't that it's inherently broken, it's not especially if scum have roles like neapolitan which really aren't scum indicative

The problem is that having a BP investigation role is like pretty fundamentally unfun without mafia counterplay and I doubt it gets passed

Still swingy because it depends on keeping your Strongman alive until you can kill the Rolecop and also gives no indication of who needs to get Strongmanned without another scum investigative role, if they get limmed before then then town would be in a really good spot since at that point the 1-shot BP may as well be ungated

-Nameless

[Flower]

Can we get a list of people willing to flashwagon Cook here instead? I'm here at the deadline

-Nameless

[Flower]

Italiano, Hu Tao, Black, Invis, Happy, KKFC, I've seen y'all post in times that indicate y'all should be available before the deadline and seen y'all express interest in a Cook lim. Can I interest you in a Cook flashwagon?

-A

[Flower]

With me voting Cook and Ausuka also being willing to vote there that'd be 8 votes if all y'all agreed, we only need 7 for a lim

-A

[Flower]

@Flower, Cook is not happening today

We're letting scum get away? Lame

VOTE: Ausuka

Go hammer this Black Italiano is town

-A

[Flower]

This kind of confidence from you kinda reminds me of Fire & Ice...

We're confident as scum yeah but we also tend to be confident as town too, don't think it's AI for us

I hope you didn't replace into a scum slot Flower. I much prefer when we're on the same team

As long as you didnt roll scum we're good

-A

[Flower]

Et tu flower

I don't think you flip red here, I just think Italiano

definitely

flips green though and I don't want to risk that going through when he's already E-1

-A

[Flower]

I actually think on my wagon only black has actually tried to like case me as scum and the rest are just sheeping her for some reason / survival votes

Any thoughts about how the Cook wagon dissipated and if there's scum there that contributed to that on wagon/on the sidelines?

-A

[Flower]

UNVOTE: Ausuka

[Flower]

What's the Hu Tao case?

-A

[Flower]

VOTE: Hu Tao

You know if we're flashwagonning we can still lim Cook

-A

[Flower]

VOTE: Hu Tao

You know if we're flashwagonning we can still lim Cook

-A

Don't you agree that if Cook is town then scum really want her limmed today? You'll probably answer with "no way Cook is town" or something but if you consider for a split second that she is, wouldn't her lim be really bad?

She's never getting nightkilled with the 1-shot BP + the sus on her and her being able to prove she's a rolecop doesn't matter since the issue is if she's a Mafia Rolecop and not whether she's a Rolecop in the first place. Any result is probably going to be either Vanilla from someone who hasn't claimed or just confirming the roles from Ausuka/Italiano and if we're limming her d2 instead we get pretty much the same relevant information as we would from Italiano.

Most likely people to get Rolecopped by Cook N1 are Flower/Ausuka/Italiano which would only be useful info if scum!Ausuka is fakeclaiming Backup Watcher but in that case the only reason to prepare that claim and use it is if she's partners with Cook in which case Cook will either lie to confirm Ausuka or just say she checked Flower/Italiano/Random Person

-A

[Flower]

Like this cost-benefit analysis

does

require trusting that I'm town but in the town!Flower case it's fine to basically treat Cook as just Bulletproof without the Rolecop nightplay wise if we're not leaving her alive until at least d3/d4

-A

[Flower]

Oh I see.

You down to flashwagon Cook here?

-A

[Flower]

VOTE: Cook

Flashwagon let's go

[Flower]

I think of my wagon asri is probably the only one who I actively think is town

I'm sure people are going to suspect them for constantly changing their reads and acting like anyone who doesn't agree with {current scumteam here} is an idiot and I don't really blame you, good luck

The current scumteams are ausuka/fire/flower flower/fire/cook ausuka/happy/flower and invisibility/Hu Tao/ItalianoVd and anyone who doesn't agree with that is a beautiful human being

Can't believe you didn't include me in the last team as well, so rude

Anyways Cook shouldn't be checking Ausuka/Italiano because:

• If Cook is town then Ausuka is town (No reason to setup the Backup Watcher claim otherwise) and Italiano's probably scum fakeclaiming because too much investigative power otherwise so the check doesn't matter because it's still a 1f1 that has to get dealt with
  
• If Cook is scum then either Ausuka is scum and we won't get a real result or Ausuka is town and we wont be able to trust the result anyways. Italiano's locktown until massclaim in that case since otherwise the setup's kinda wack

Also the extreme resistance to a Cook wagon going through while everyone agrees she's scum and the counterwagon being a meh lurker slot makes me think there's scum interference defusing the wagon

-Nameless

[Flower]

40 minutes until deadline and the Cook wagon has once again dissipated

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Flower]

intent to hammer on ausuka

if nobody else votes hu tao

I think of my wagon asri is probably the only one who I actively think is town

I'm sure people are going to suspect them for constantly changing their reads and acting like anyone who doesn't agree with {current scumteam here} is an idiot and I don't really blame you, good luck

The current scumteams are ausuka/fire/flower flower/fire/cook ausuka/happy/flower and invisibility/Hu Tao/ItalianoVd and anyone who doesn't agree with that is a beautiful human being

Can't believe you didn't include me in the last team as well, so rude

Anyways Cook shouldn't be checking Ausuka/Italiano because:

• If Cook is town then Ausuka is town (No reason to setup the Backup Watcher claim otherwise) and Italiano's probably scum fakeclaiming because too much investigative power otherwise so the check doesn't matter because it's still a 1f1 that has to get dealt with
  
• If Cook is scum then either Ausuka is scum and we won't get a real result or Ausuka is town and we wont be able to trust the result anyways. Italiano's locktown until massclaim in that case since otherwise the setup's kinda wack

Also the extreme resistance to a Cook wagon going through while everyone agrees she's scum and the counterwagon being a meh lurker slot makes me think there's scum interference defusing the wagon

-Nameless

Cook you got any objections to checking outside of Italiano/Ausuka?

[Flower]

Btw if Ausuka flips red Cook is always scum since otherwise there's no reason for scumsuka to setup the backup watcher claim the way she did

[Flower]

okay screw it

VOTE: ausuka

sparks fly someone dies

someone hammer if this isn’t

What the fuck

I was literally about to hammer Hu

Why did you just switch?

Vote Hu Tao for E-1

[Flower]

I'll wait for Italiano to post results before limming Cook, but she should absolutely die today

-Nameless

[Flower]

So Ausuka probably died because of her claim. Asri was an interesting choice for a kill and I'm guessing this one came from a vig of some sort?

Asri was the vig shot for hard defending Cook, Ausuka got shot because Cook voting Ausuka instead of Hu Tao at the end of d1 basically hard cleared her. If Ausuka flipped red there Cook always gets limmed so the fact that Cook was ok with the lim basically proved it was scum!Cook + town!Ausuka (town!Cook also became impossible there since town!Cook should basically consider Ausuka locktown for the way the claim happened meaning that Hu Tao was the better lim)

-Nameless

[Flower]

We still kill Cook here since she's scum Rolecop, Black since you're outed can you fullclaim?

-Nameless

[Flower]

oh and one last thing i LIED about the bp

i’m ascetic. the bp call was so that i didn’t get obliterated n1. i had to play scummy town so that mafia wouldn’t shoot me for townleading, because i could not get protted

nope
2 deaths=vig/third party
there is no way there is a role this cracked in this setup

It's a vig shot. As per the Normal rules:

The game should have at least one Mafia or Werewolf group (of at least two members). In mini games (at most 13 players), there must be exactly one such group,

with no third parties.

[Flower]

there’s genuinely no way that there’s five town pr’s in this setup

Wow we can actually agree on something, that's a first

-Nameless

[Flower]

alright, i listened to everyone’s feedback and all and decided to rolecop black. she’s tracker

I don't know if revealing my role right away was the best play but I could be wrong. Maybe I'm just not a fan of being outed like this

We still kill Cook here since she's scum Rolecop, Black since you're outed can you fullclaim?

I think I'd like to keep my result secret for now. I'll reveal it before the day ends just in case I'm the N2 target

If you have a no visit or you tracked someone to Ausuka please post, otherwise understandable

-Nameless

[Flower]

If you have a no visit or you tracked someone to Ausuka please post, otherwise understandable

Why would you want me to claim if I got a no visit?

Scum cant multitask so Cook didn't do the kill, a no visit strongly implies the person you checked is town since at a minimum 2/3 scum should have visited n1. Like this we don't waste time wagoning town

-Nameless

[Flower]

I got a no visit, but I don't see why that person couldn't just be a goon

That would imply two goons since you'd assume that otherwise Goon would be killing and maf PR would be PRing

In the Goon no visit scenario the visits would be:

Vig -> Asri
Italiano -> ?
Black -> ?
Cook -> Black
Goon -> Ausuka
Goon2 -> No visit
4x Town -> No visit

That's a 4/5 chance of the no-visit coming from town if we're already in the double goon/other maf PR doesn't PR n1 scenarios

-Nameless

[Flower]

a funni I think sheep would do is to make the backup watcher a named townie

I don't think that's likely.

Setup has too much Town power if the Town Watcher is real, Ausuka was almost certainly a Named Townie:

Town Tracker

Town Watcher

Town Backup Watcher

Town X-Shot Vigilante

Town Odd-Night Neapolitan

Vanilla Town x5

Mafia 1-shot Bulletproof Rolecop

Mafia x2

[Flower]

Also why are you assuming the watcher is ungated?

If the Watcher is gated then killing them increases Town power which would be pretty weird

-

Why are you assuming Cook is fake and Italiano is real?

Already explained how Cook voting Ausuka d1 outs her as scum but in the town!Cook/scum!Italiano scenario the setup imbalance gets even worse

-Nameless

[Flower]

Also why are you assuming the watcher is ungated?

If the Watcher is gated then killing them increases Town power which would be pretty weird

-

Why are you assuming Cook is fake and Italiano is real?

Already explained how Cook voting Ausuka d1 outs her as scum but in the town!Cook/scum!Italiano scenario the setup imbalance gets even worse

-Nameless

i already explained how my ausuka vote was a miscommunication you’re finding reasons to deathtunnel me

like if i were vig i would have shot you on suspicion of being a condemner in any other game

As soon as Ausuka claimed Backup Watcher you should have locktowned her, there's no miscommunication there. In a scum!Ausuka game she has no reason to save town!Cook by crumbing that Ninja/Strongman makes sense and then claiming a role that makes town!Cook make sense if there's no Vig

-Nameless

[Flower]

Anyways we're still killing Cook here, just waiting for Black to post her Green check

-Nameless

[Flower]

If Cook is town, Flower and IVD are scum

If Cook is scum, I think IVD is town and Flower is probably town too

There's no world where Cook's town here, go re-read Ausukas mechposting where she says Cook's scum trueclaiming if there's a vig in the game

-Nameless

[Flower]

That being said cook might still be scum here so like come to your own conclusions etc. I would be significantly more skeptical of her if two people die tonight as I have said.

[Flower]

I want to hear from fire today

Also do we think a massclaim hurts town or helps town here?

Gut says hurts since pretty much everyone but the Vig has claimed

-Nameless

[Flower]

this is what i don't trust btw

- started out saying that off the claims, italiano was locktown and cook was lockscum
- follows up by saying that part of that is based on gameplay read and preflips, but that

even if she flips green

they feel decent about him
- continues to argue that italiano shouldn't be limmed based on mechanics, and a couple arguments (which ausuka p quickly points out as faulty) about how his role doesn't make sense as scum if cook is town
- italiano is definitely green

and then finally at the end of the day when actually laying out the logic of the situation, they say that if cook flips town, italiano is probably scum

which goes pretty much counter to everything they were arguing initially and makes the rest feel like taking advantage of mech arguments to push an agenda

i don't think it's excusable as saying they had a strong scumread on cook and were allowing that preflip to influence their takes, bc they also specifically argued that italiano was still probtown even if cook was town, until it came to the end of the day

so im not really willing to trust flower's takes on mech at face value bc even giving maximum benefit of the doubt, they're allowing gameplay reads to influence the mech ideas that they're pushing. feels more to me like they're pushing agenda though, just in the kinda slimy way that they have framed arguments when talking to ausuka and black

The slime's part of our charm

Anyways I phoneposted 1858 40 minutes before the deadline so it didn't get my usual editing pass for sanity and for some reason I assumed the Watcher had to be real instead of Ausuka just being a Named Townie in that setup spec

In the scum!Flower game what do you think our motivation for coming into the game, suddenly reversing our slots read on Cook (I think? Italiano mentioned this but I haven't actually read what HPE posted) and then spending the rest of the game campaigning to get them limmed is?

Why does scum-Cook tell everyone who the tracker is so the watcher knows who to be on?

I haven't ruled out Black also just being scum but regardless the setup doesn't work if the Watcher exists instead of Ausuka being a Named Townie

-Nameless

VOTE: Cook

[Flower]

Ugh, this is why I hate this game sometimes. I targeted Black last not and my result was “not a vanilla townie”.

Haha, of course you did! What a wacky coincidence.

VOTE: Italiano

Did you miss the setup spec from Ausuka where Vig game = scum!Cook or do you actually believe Cooks new claim?

im here

uhh initial thoughts

we have a vig, people said yesterday that vig = scum cook? but then cook walks back the bulletproof claim so does that still apply? or is she just doing that bc she realizes she's kinda screwed. but if she's scum bulletproof, why claim it in the first place? also hate the tracker outing but not sure if that's just bad play vs scummy

Cook either literally doesn't understand mech enough to know why 1-shot BP Rolecop is scummy (Certainly the persona she's got right now) or she's lying about not understanding (In which case I don't get the play but still scum). Over the night though even if her teammates are complete slankers they'd still have checked in long enough to explain to 0-mech Cook that if there's two kills her claim can't survive and she has to fakeclaim again

italiano claiming result on black second is annoying and probably scummy. i kinda think that if town does have all minus one of these roles and also a potential watcher out there, scum must have some power? such as a roleblocker of some kind? so it's weird to me that nobody was blocked. im not sure what that means if anything

The setup doesn't work if the Watcher is real and there's also the possibility that scum tried to Roleblock someone else hoping to hit the Vigilante which would save Cook at the cost of letting Italiano get a check off

i assume it's unlikely that black could be a scum tracker? idk if that's ever a scum role

If Black is scum she's not Tracker (and her refusal to just post instead of waiting is giving me bad vibes since scum!Black can be stalling to figure out who's VT)

i am not very confident in trying to mechsolve games at all but on play i still think italiano is scummy

i don't really trust flower tbh

i usually go to SS for mech takes and im not entirely sure if i trust him completely here but i think i do more than flower

If you don't know the mech go sheep Ausukas mechposting

-Nameless

[Flower]

Did you miss the setup spec from Ausuka where Vig game = scum!Cook or do you actually believe Cooks new claim?

I believe Cook's new claim. It makes much more sense in the setup than the old one (and than Italiano's claim) and the reasoning, while poor, is believable.

How would these posts be justified by an Ascetic Rolecop Cook?

I even have a 14p game that has a 3v11 setup, this should be 3v10
on prs here I do agree the cook pr seems a bit too op, should be balanced by making other prs weaker
how many prs do we have here is the real question
I'm guessing three
how do I know this
I make setups and am p good at them

part of the reason i called BS on italiano's claim

like look there in the future

oh you haven't read that far back probably, nameless, but

"defensive" is a bit of a weird read of that post

agree and

i think that maybe my wagon knows something about me

i felt like mafia might be informed of my existence because of how strong i am

Like a big part of why I'm scumreading Cook outside of mech is that these explanations make negative sense for me and I don't see how Cook comes to the conclusions there.

-Nameless

[Flower]

Hmm. Ok. Let me think on this. I'm not going to reveal right now so just give it some time

Black if you tracked S_S staying home can you come out with this information now before I get into a tunnel here?

-Nameless

[Flower]

Fire stayed home

Cool, fire locktown

You really think Cook and I are

this

incompetent as scum? Or what exactly do you think our grand plan is?

1193 was a reaction test for Black since we're not 100% she's real. If she'd said you stayed home I would have locktowned the both of you.

Mafia Tracker

makes 0 sense so either Black is town and I can trust her to tell the truth or Black is scum with Cook. In the scum!Black case:

• I don't think Black has the balls to greencheck her partner so Cook/Black/S_S doesn't make sense as the team (Therefore you're Green)
  
• If the team was Cook/Black/not S_S then it'd be weird for her to clear you instead of just letting me tunnel (And she'd know I'm a pretty notorious tunneler so therefore she's Green)

-A

---

S_S the only mechheads still alive are you and happy so I'll try to be as clear and explicit as I can be here, if you assume a town!Flower game I'm confident the both of you will be able to figure out what I'm trying to say here (Well maybe not happy, he's English Second Language so it might get lost in translation).

If Cook is town here then this setup wouldn't have passed review because it's reasonably possible to mechanically solve the game by the start of D3 in such a way where scum instantly lose if they don't win one of three specific 1v1's against (Two against a PR, one against a VT) assuming they didn't find and kill Black or Cook or another specific person n2 or earlier. This is still the case even if no scum dies until MeLo/ELo
Assumptions being made in that proof (Note that I don't believe all these are the case but most are either reasonable assumptions or the assumptions that would minimize Towns ability to mechanically lock the game):

1. Italiano is scum (i.e. Neapolitan check isn't considered)
   
2. Ausuka was a Named Townie (i.e. no Town Watcher, Scum Watcher can be assumed for the setup if you like since it makes no difference)
   
3. Ausuka is treated like Vanilla Town (i.e. not mechanically cleared just because she claims Backup Watcher, Rolecop can clear her but it's not required for the proof)
   
4. The Vig is 1-shot (2-shot means the game is completely mechanically locked without even the chance to win with a 1v1)
   
5. The Vig can die before MeLo/ELo (Makes no difference actually since there's still a 1v1 at the end that scum have to win, although it changes which 1v1 occurs)
   
6. The Vig doesn't shoot Black or Cook or another specific person (For the proof I assumed Vig shot VT, shooting scum also works though it might change which 1v1 occurs)
   
7. If Cook is Town then Black is Town (
   Mafia Tracker
   makes 0 sense)
   
8. Black and Cook don't check the same person and all of their checks stay alive (Makes it harder for scum to win but it's something that would have been brought up in review)
   
9. Black and Cook only check town (If they checked scum then trying to make the setup work would imply that they get a red check, which would hurt scum more than a green check)
   
10. Cook checks Black before D3 (Required for the mechanical lock, but realistically a Town Tracker claim with multiple clears would look pretty legit

Think outside the box for this one and understand that I get why you thought Cook was mechanically possible with the information you had.

-Nameless

[Flower]

Spoiler: More Mech

There's definitely not a scum watcher. But why are you assuming there's no town watcher?

Red herring backup is rare, you should need extraordinary evidence to believe it's the most likely scenario.

If there's a Town Watcher the lock gets even stronger, that was me giving scum a chance

Why does mafia tracker make 0 sense? I've definitely seen them before.

sheeps only other modded game was Mini Normal 2053 back in 2019, you

can

make Mafia Tracker work but is it a role combo you'd reasonable expect a newer mod to run?

I wish you would just post the steps of the proof instead of posting the assumptions and making me figure out what you mean. It's not that I necessarily couldn't if I tried, but it seems unnecessary.

Me too but sadly in this case it's pretty necessary, sorry

[Flower]

Spoiler: More Mech

There's definitely not a scum watcher. But why are you assuming there's no town watcher?

Red herring backup is rare, you should need extraordinary evidence to believe it's the most likely scenario.

If there's a Town Watcher the lock gets even stronger, that was me giving scum a chance

Why does mafia tracker make 0 sense? I've definitely seen them before.

sheeps only other modded game was Mini Normal 2053 back in 2019, you

can

make Mafia Tracker work but is it a role combo you'd reasonable expect a newer mod to run?

I wish you would just post the steps of the proof instead of posting the assumptions and making me figure out what you mean. It's not that I necessarily couldn't if I tried, but it seems unnecessary.

Me too but sadly in this case it's pretty necessary, sorry

Spoiler: Even More Mech

I will say that you're focusing on the wrong things, just assume the assumptions are true and figure out how I'd force scum into a 1v1.

-Nameless

[Flower]

i don't think anyone expects this to be fake lol but might as well confirm that yes i did

ngl i am getting flashbacks to hollow knight where that turned into a mechfest+me being soft cleared and i just had no idea how to play in that gamestate and kinda threw

i will try not to do that this time zzzzzzz

We can move away from mech then. Given that Ausuka + Hu Tao were both town what do we think about the wagons that were happening at the end of D1?

-A

[Flower]

my initial reaction was thinking that scum probably had no reason to be especially active in shaping things near the end of the day if both wagons were town

like, at the very least no need to take action to expose themselves

which is why idk why scum cook would vote ausuka at the end there. even if you believe it makes no sense from her as town to think ausuka could be scum, there's no benefit to her as scum to do that

Realistically speaking outside of Black I don't think anyone on wagon had a clear reason to be voting Ausuka instead of just it being a case of "I hate the other wagon even more" or "It's almost deadline and I don't want to no-lim". Ausuka making it to D2 basically guarantees she doesn't ever get limmed, especially with Black looking like she was getting out of her tunnel

-A

[Flower]

Bruh, why does town-Cook out the tracker in the first place? And if you think I’m scum and Cook is town, you really believe that there would be a Tracker, a Watcher, a Backup Watcher, a Vig, and a Rolecop?

I mean I’m bad at mechanics, but not that bad, that’s crazy.

I mean I thought the only other scenario that possibly makes sense is if Black is scum with Cook, but I kinda did away with that idea. Cook is just scum here.

You're not gonna convince people with mech because the only people still alive that do mech are happy, S_S, and us. Everyone elses eyes have glazed over.

Why arent more people bothered with Cook claiming 1-Shot BP Rolecop with Ausuka pointing out that if there's a vig then Cook's probably trueclaiming scum and then after the vig shoots and Ausuka flips town her claim suddenly changes to one that isn't a blatant scumclaim

-A

[Flower]

Why arent more people bothered with Cook claiming 1-Shot BP Rolecop with Ausuka pointing out that if there's a vig then Cook's probably trueclaiming scum and then after the vig shoots and Ausuka flips town her claim suddenly changes to one that isn't a blatant scumclaim

Because Ausuka could have been wrong, and you could have killed her to set up the agenda you're pushing rn

Ausuka's part of the Normal Review Group, it'd be pretty weird for her to be wrong about setup spec this simple

if the mech is obvious then SS will agree with you and then okay fine whatever

if he disagrees or thinks it could go either way then im going off dayplay

And if it's scum!S_S deliberately lying about mech?

-A

[Flower]

Like the only people actually meching here rn are happy, S_S, Italiano, and I. Happy, Italiano, and I all think Cook is mechanically scum, do you think we're the full scum team or maybe we fucking know what we're talking about and aren't lying when we say the setup doesn't make any sense if Cook's town?

-A

[Flower]

Like the only people actually meching here rn are happy, S_S, Italiano, and I. Happy, Italiano, and I all think Cook is mechanically scum, do you think we're the full scum team or maybe we fucking know what we're talking about and aren't lying when we say the setup doesn't make any sense if Cook's town?

-A

i didn't see happy think cook is mechanically scum, where is that

GOD I REALLY HATE THIS
1. spewed a pr
2. setup unbal problem assuming not bastard
@sheep is this game bastard?
3. rolecops are more likely to come from scum faction
4. surprisingly scum didn't make you tank a hit

[Flower]

Day 2 Unofficial Votecount

Cook (4):

iamveryhappy, ItalianoVD, Flower, KatyKimFanClub

ItalianoVD (2):

Cook, Something_Smart

Not Voting (4):

Invisibility, fireisredsir, T3, Black

With 10 players alive, it takes 6 votes to reach majority.

There are (expired on 2023-06-30 13:10:00) remaining.

[Flower]

I don't really know what to think rn

I'm leaning towards yeeting IVD. The last time Flower was this adamant about their agenda they were scum. Not the most definitive tell but it's making it hard for me to trust them

I mean it works for our scum games

because

we can and often do this same sort of thing. In order for the mech I'm talking about to not be applicable though Ausuka (Part of the NRG), happy (Designs setups off-site apparently), Myself (Mech enjoyer who likes the towncred for being right about mech first instead of being blatantly wrong and then getting contradicted), and Italiano would all need to be wrong/scum. Do you think that's realistically the case here? Like even in a scum!Flower game we'd be objectively correct that Cook's mechanically scum here and I'm more surprised that you're more worried that Cook is town instead of the possibility that I'm scum hard bussing Cook (Also not our style but at least it's more believable than the implications of a town!Cook/scum!Flower game)

-A

[Flower]

I mean it works for our scum games

because

we can and often do this same sort of thing

as town

.

-A

EBWOP

[Flower]

Why arent more people bothered with Cook claiming 1-Shot BP Rolecop with Ausuka pointing out that if there's a vig then Cook's probably trueclaiming scum and then after the vig shoots and Ausuka flips town her claim suddenly changes to one that isn't a blatant scumclaim

How is mafia tracker too complicated for sheep but mafia 1-shot BP rolecop is fair game? That seems like a weird inconsistency.

Because there's a Vig in the game and that's the kind of thing where if scum have no counter to it a Mafia 1-Shot Bulletproof Rolecop gets suggested to address it during review. Mafia Tracker on the other hand isn't likely to get suggested as a counterbalance to town PRs so sheep'd have to proactively add it in the game

Tracker and rolecop can't get green checks, so if I'm assuming they only check town, then they have basically 0 info. I really don't see what you're getting at.

If we have 5 Town PRs (With 3 info roles and a vig) are you unironically suggesting that scum gets 0 compensation in the form of PRs? If Cook were real a No Visit/Vanilla result is pretty much a Green check

-A

[Flower]

Why arent more people bothered with Cook claiming 1-Shot BP Rolecop with Ausuka pointing out that if there's a vig then Cook's probably trueclaiming scum and then after the vig shoots and Ausuka flips town her claim suddenly changes to one that isn't a blatant scumclaim

How is mafia tracker too complicated for sheep but mafia 1-shot BP rolecop is fair game? That seems like a weird inconsistency.

Actually this is probably the weirdest thing to come from S_S in this part because he's part of the NRG. He should already have experience with someone carelessly adding a Town Vigilante and needing to suggest some sort of counterbalance and this is making me feel like he's twisting mech for an agenda

Because there's a Vig in the game and that's the kind of thing where if scum have no counter to it a Mafia 1-Shot Bulletproof Rolecop gets suggested to address it during review.

I don't think this is a thing that happens during reviews? Mafia bulletproof is not a "counter" to a vig, it's a random slap in the face.

Case in point. You'd add Mafia 1-Shot BP in a Vig game so that the Vig can shoot limbait without just straight up soloing the game by shooting all the Mafia, how is this a new concept for you?

-A

[Flower]

no
I think it's more on the side of 3-shot
2-shot seems too weak, no modifier seems too strong
this game lasts approx. 5 days

The vig is either 2-shot to keep the game on odds or 1-shot and there's a townie with the Weak modifier to keep the game on odds

He should already have experience with someone carelessly adding a Town Vigilante and needing to suggest some sort of counterbalance and this is making me feel like he's twisting mech for an agenda

Can you link to a review where this happened?

I would never suggest this as a counter to vig. I don't think Isis or Koba would either. But I've been wrong before.

I just checked, turns out you are technically correct in the sense that setups with Vig's are either passed with minimal modifications because the setup works first try or the setup doesn't work and the Vig gets dropped. Given that we've had a vig shot though...

Anyways this is distracting from the actual problem at hand when it comes to sorting Cook, namely

---

MECH ENDS HERE

It is indisputable fact that if Cook was actually trueclaiming 1-Shot Bulletproof Rolecop D1 she's scum here, to suggest otherwise would imply that Ausuka/Flower/happy/Italiano are all wrong/lying scum. Given that's the case the mech doesn't actually matter. What we actually have to figure out is the following:

Does it make more sense for Cook to have trueclaimed d1 and then changed her claim to one that doesn't instantly get her limmed after Ausuka flipped green and the Vigilante shot Asri?

OR

Does it make more sense for Cook to have done a gambit d1 by claiming 1-Shot Bulletproof instead of Ascetic?

Keep in mind that if town!Cook

was

gambiting here there's ways to not get shot n1 without claiming a role that's scum in a Vig game (e.g. claiming Even Night/Novice)

-Nameless

[Flower]

is it just me
or would the vig have a chance to shoot ausuka last night

Vig shooting Ausuka and scum shooting Cook is technically possible but think about it from the Vig's perspective:

• Pretty much every single person d1 was in agreement that if there's a Vig then Cook is scum
  
• Vig therefore assumes Cook is scum
  
• Can't shoot Cook because 1-Shot BP
  
• Shoot a likely partner
  
• Asri spends the entirety of d1 hard defending Cook

I think it's pretty likely that Asri was the vig shot and that the vig was trying to partner hunt

-Nameless

[Flower]

scum shooting

Asri

EBWOP

[Flower]

Power supply died so this is pretty much just a prodge. Since it's 7/3 with 6 votes to lim and Black's sheeping fire, fire's a priority pocket right now if both are town. If scum decide to close ranks and go for a powerwolf sweep in that scenario the only way for town to win through the pocket is with the vig and considering they're likely 1-shot it's not something I want to rely on.

Fire what's your take on Cook through a dayplay lens? I don't trust S_S's mech

-A

[Flower]

What if the vig is not os? who would you want the vig to shoot? why is the vig os?

If there's no Cook lim then anyone who isn't voting Cook (since Cook'd have 1-shot BP). Vig is either 1-shot with another Townie being able to kill themselves at night (e.g. Weak) or 2-shot because otherwise shooting's negative utility since it brings the game to evens so the game ends at MeLo instead of ELo. Vig ain't 3-shot/ungated because that's too much town power

-A

[Flower]

Got a new power supply

i still think that if backup watcher and ascet rolecop are on townside that a third investigative (italiano) can't exist

Are you forgetting that you found Black Tracker? Like I'm in agreement with you that there's too many investigatives if all the claims are town (Like, the number isn't the problem. The combined power is), my problem is that it still points to you being scum even if we took your Ascetic claim at face value (We don't but w/e)

Tracker - Black
Watcher - Unknown, not confirmed to exist
Town Backup Watcher - Ausuka
X-Shot Vigilante - Unknown, confirmed to exist
1-Shot BP/Ascetic Rolecop - Cook
Odd Night Neapolitan - ItalianoVD

Like all of these are roles that scum would really want to know the exact role of and it feels like without the scum rolecop even if the setup's balanced winrate wise with scum PR's it'd be the kind of setup that's won pretty much entirely through nightplay which is pretty ugh.

-A

---

Cook if you don't think there can be 3+ investigative PR's why do you think Italiano's more likely to be scum than Black?

-A

[Flower]

Wow after 2137 I'm really starting to hate this gamestate. d1 there were only like 4? people qualified to make a mechanical judgement on whether Cook is scum through setup spec (Ausuka/S_S/happy/Flower, idk maybe I'm missing someone. Also S_S wasn't even fucking posting during that entire time), the rest either completely checked out or were too scared of what'd happen if Cook flipped green to go for the lim relying solely on d1 dayplay (which fair enough but kind of a pain) and that's like 70% of the reason why the Cook wagon kept dissipating.

At this point I'm kinda at a fucking loss for what to do cause it's pretty blatantly obvious that Cook's scum through setup spec with the d1 1-Shot BP Rolecop claim and through dayplay with the incredibly convenient Ascetic claim after both Ausuka flips green and the Vig shoots when Ausuka said "Vig game = Cook's scum", and every time we try to point it out peoples eyes just fucking glaze over

If Cook's somehow still alive come MeLo/ELo just deadsheep Ausuka and I and lim her already, this is just painful

-A

[Flower]

I kinda forgot Invis existed, he hadn't posted in a while

-A

[Flower]

Kinda want to look into S_S tomorrow regardless of what Cook flips

[Flower]

if someone really wants to hammer this lemme write a last will and testament first

if someone quickhammers, they are scum and a vig or tomorrow's town should kill them

immediately

wdym last will and testament? You full claimed like 3 days ago, we should have already gotten anything you're about to post then instead of now

-A

[Flower]

Cook

is town

and town should be ashamed of managing to get two PR's killed in rapid succession. gj

lol we'll see

Black

is locktown.

if there's a watcher you need to be on black.

Black might be town? Also:

Cook if you don't think there can be 3+ investigative PR's why do you think Italiano's more likely to be scum than Black?

-A

---

fireisredsir

is letting himself be complacent as far as having thoughts, but also got nv confirmed by Black? so i dunno.

scum!Black doesn't have the balls to clear her teammate, fire's town

Something_Smart

isn't on the same team as Flower I don't think, or they're distancing. or maybe s_s is town. i'm townleaning here

Yeah I get bad vibes from S_S

KKFC

just suddenly dropped back today. don't know what that's about but it's not good

If you were paying attention you'd know why he's the towniest person here

Invisibility

also has dropped back today.

Invis exists I guess?

T3

hasn't engaged today? posted a bunch of thoughts i didn't read.

T3 also exists I guess?

iamvh

is not a slot i'm happy with as far as content.

happy's hard to gut read, we need to re-read their trajectory

ItalianoVD

does not have a good claim and its gonna look worse once I die

debatable

Flower

is probably scum

<3

-A

[Flower]

fireisredsir is letting himself be complacent as far as having thoughts, but also got nv confirmed by Black? so i dunno

I don't think fire is 100% confirmed btw. He could still be a goon

Statistically speaking they're likelier to be town compared to picking a random person

-A

[Flower]

Kinda want to look into S_S tomorrow regardless of what Cook flips

[Flower]

rethinking of it I might not believe that tracker claim at all judging on cook flip
assuming cook is scum I don't think that you can just play it cool like that admitting to be tracker while outed, and feels like a bit forced
that is where I'm coming from and I am concerned about it
also you said you would claim target and result, what is it?

Fire stayed home

[Flower]

Look into S_S tomorrow

[Flower]

Look into S_S tomorrow

Especially if we're dead

[Flower]

Holy shit we almost just threw the game right there, we weren't expecting the vig to be able to shoot both N1 and N2 with a Weak in the game

-A

---

Town Novice 2-shot Weak Bodyguard

Twice per game we can target someone at night and if they're targeted by a killing action we try to die in their place. If we successfully target scum we die. Can't act n1

N2: Targeted Something_Smart

---

Went on S_S because:

• We were pretty sure that he's both scum and that vig couldn't shoot both n1 and n2, so if we died 2200/2201 would be enough to signal he's scum without instantly losing the game. Didn't target other people that could have been scum because if S_S was scum there I don't see a way to get him limmed through dayplay
  
• If he's town then we can presumably trust him on there being a Watcher who should have been on Black/Klick
  
• We knew he wasn't the Vig because otherwise he would have shot Italiano instead of Asri n1

Popcorning to Invisibility

---

@mod V/LA until the 1st

[Flower]

when did you decide that SS was likely scum and did your opinion change at all after the cook flip?

and what made you decide to use it as an investigative rather than a protective

D2 I thought he was scum for deflecting from Cook onto Italiano so hard cause I thought Cook was scum, after the flip he was even scummier cause he thought Cook made more than negative sense setup wise during the day when no she didn't cause she was fakeclaiming even until she flipped.

Used it to get a check on S_S instead of being on Black because when I was looking at past mini normals with a Vig and a Weak the Vig couldn't shoot both N1 and N2 (1-shot/Non-consecutive/etc.). Me dying with a red check on S_S would work because pretty much every mech person other than S_S lost all their credibility after Cook and it'd mean that we don't waste a lim resolving us while also bringing us back to odds. If he's town then I'd still need a green check on him otherwise

I'd

have thrown the game by voting him

Popcorning to Invisibility

Why are we popcorning when there's an unclaimed watcher and a vig out there?

It's ELo? If we wait until they're run up they're just gonna get cc'd by scum

-A

[Flower]

It's ELo? If we wait until they're run up they're just gonna get cc'd by scum

We have an essentially confirmed scum in Italiano, though, so we might as well kill him first and not help scum out on what to do tonight.

Unless you don't think Italiano is scum?

Good point, no popcorn then. I'll be on S_S tonight so that we don't risk triggering Weak unless there's a good reason for us not to?

-A

[Flower]

im confused why vig didn't shoot italiano

If vig thinks Italiano is scum then we'd still be on evens after the shot and it's pretty reasonable to assume Italiano gets limmed today anyways. Going for an iffy slot instead was probably better, especially if they're hedging against not being able to shoot N3 due to dying/2-shot/etc.

If they dont think Italiano is scum then idk cause that would probably be the best shot at that point

-A

[Flower]

Flower, if Cook had flipped scum, who would you have targeted?

Still you cause I knew happy probably got the crumb from 2202 so in scum!S_S we go 4/1 by the start of D4 with plenty of flips to work with and in town!S_S we save a lim on a slot that'd look pretty questionable

-A

[Flower]

Yeah, that would have been proper. It's a borderline throw to crumb a target like that and then target someone else.

Why did you choose me as your target?

Nameless disagreed with most of your mech on the theoretical end and I disagreed with your "Yeah I can see Cook being town and gambiting" so it's pretty much just a hero shot from the both of us cause if Cook flipped red you'd look bad and if she flipped green it felt like TMI

-A

[Flower]

Nightplay wise I think the vig shouldn't be shooting tonight and that if the Watcher has a red check on Italiano they also shouldn't come out. If they have a red check on someone else then they should come out and we should figure out if it's a good idea for me to be on them instead of S_S. If it is I'll 50/50 it to try and eat the bullet there

I trust Italiano to some extent.
If you want me to claim I should
Claim targets/actions @neapolitan

Claim tomorrow instead unless you have useful red/green checks you haven't crumbed (Italiano Red is not a useful check)

-Nameless

[Flower]

I trust Italiano to some extent.
If you want me to claim I should
Claim targets/actions @neapolitan

Also like how would a town!Italiano setup even work? That'd be

Town Tracker

Town Ascetic 3-shot Rolecop

Town Backup Watcher

Town Novice 2-shot Weak Bodyguard

Town Vigilante

(At this point they might actually be ungated)

Town Odd-night Neapolitan

Town Watcher/Vanilla Town

Vanilla Town

Vanilla Town

Vanilla Town

Mafia

Mafia

Mafia

That just feels like too many PR's at that point

Also I just realized something

im confused why vig didn't shoot italiano

Vig could be Loyal

-A

[Flower]

Wow, this is a lot of town PRs?

Italiano is confirmed right

Italiano's very likely scum here, why do you think Italiano's confirmed?

-A

[Flower]

What do we think about Italiano giving up instead of trying to go for the sweep after KKFC and happy thought he could be town? Also since we're going to be on S_S the Watcher should probably ask for clarification overnight on who they have to target to see the kill if S_S is the target of the nightkill

-A

[Flower]

nah but
we already have 4 town power roles: the weak thingy, tracker, rolecop and vig
surely enough

Tracker's dead and so is the Rolecop, Klick/Black was the Tracker and Cook was Rolecop.

From the PR's still alive we've got:

• Novice 2-shot Weak Bodyguard (Me, and there's no more checks coming from here since I'm stuck keeping S_S alive)
  
• Vig (Not outed, but also the optimal play from them is to stop shooting for the rest of the game)
  
• Watcher (Maybe exists? But if they do then the setup probably implies a Ninja so they might not actually be that useful)

We still have dayplay to do, don't turn your brain off trying to solve with nightplay cause we don't actually have the roles for that. Also my point wasn't if Italiano is scum (like he already admitted it), my question is why he gave up on trying to pocket you/KKFC for the sweep?

-A

[Flower]

Wow, this is a lot of town PRs?

Italiano is confirmed right

Italiano's very likely scum here, why do you think Italiano's confirmed?

-A

Oh I meant confirmed scum sorry! I was confused by your response at first.

I trust Italiano to some extent.
If you want me to claim I should
Claim targets/actions @neapolitan

why did you trust Italiano here?

I trust that italiano is Neapolitan yes
but the red one

Oh these make more sense

italiano obviously wants to die and not say anything and just let his team go to next phase

Well, not necessarily. He just doesn't want to keep pretending to be town and potentially give more away, when he assumes it's pointless.

The reason I was holding off was in case Flower wanted to say more, since they are probably dying tonight.

If you're waiting for us to do a re-read we won't have time until we get back from V/LA but D1 wagonomics is probably gonna be pretty useful. If we don't have a watcher then fire's probably? town from the tracker result since then scum probably don't have a Ninja. Wagonomics wise I like happy being on Italiano in 1531 after 1527 like fire mentioned. POE that'd leave KKFC and Invis then?

I'm down to end the day without doing a re-read since there's a guaranteed two confirmed town still alive in 5p (You and Vig/BG) and one confirmed town still alive in 3p so it should be pretty sortable

-A

[Flower]

VOTE: Italiano

I hate this vote btw

[Flower]

Makes me think my KKFC read isn't accurate so sort that out later but invis prob scum here

[Flower]

Like scumvis can afford to get limmed, townvis cant so ending the day with a scumread from confirmed town is

[Flower]

If vig can shoot both n3 and n4 consider shooting Invis so that we go 3/1 and mechanically lock the game

[Flower]

If vig can shoot both n3 and n4 consider shooting Invis so that we go 3/1 and mechanically lock the game

A vig shot on scum mechanically locks the game since either scum cc vig and it gets resolved at night with a no-lim or they don't and you lim one and shoot the other

[Flower]

I ended the day cuz I assumed the time for discussion was tomorrow like people had been saying

I can kinda believe this btw, you did something similar in Divide and Conquer

[Flower]

Just as a reminder for nightplay:
We're Bodyguard on S_S
Vig should try to shoot scum tonight if they can shoot n3 and n4
Watcher should check with the mod how watching interacts with BG to figure out who they should be on between S_S and I

[Flower]

I follow the will of the people

Who do you think is town then between fire/KKFC/happy?

[Flower]

Also can we do fast night? Don't think there's much either alignment needs to consider for tonights actions

[Flower]

That's kind of where we're at with fire too but happy feels the towniest out of KKFC/Invis/happy, I just don't know what to make of your hammer there as either alignment

[Flower]

cause like scumvis/KKFC team feels really weird to hammer like that with sus on the full team but the individual play makes me thing fire town and happy town

[Flower]

cause like scumvis/KKFC team feels really weird to hammer like that with sus on the full team but the individual play makes me thing fire town and happy town

Actually nvm I can see Invis hammering weirdly regardless of alignment

[Flower]

POE it's still probably just Invis/KKFC

[Flower]

KKFC

just suddenly dropped back today. don't know what that's about but it's not good

If you were paying attention you'd know why he's the towniest person here

Hi Flower I was wondering why you said this? Was this a mechanics thing?

Thought you were vig