Open 879: Fire and More Fire [game over]

[Radical Rat]

He's like a YouTube commenter

[Firebringer]

bingle is ur towntell being an asshole or u just trying to match osuka energy here

I don't have one. My towngame and my scumgame are very similar, because I'm good at playing as scum.

then shouldn't i just yeet you just to be safe

[Firebringer]

like if ur going to argue that u don't have a meta and ur games are too similar to have a tell. Then ur basically asking everyone to null read u imo

and then if ur arguing im also very good at scum.
I don't know why i shouldn't just vote park u

[Umlaut]

I believe I talked before about their early recklessness not likely to come from scum in this setup, and then they dumbtelled forgetting the setup by questioning why I would wait for two scum to flip, which... osuka strikes me as being too egotistical to fake a mistake like that, and obviously would be more conscious of it as scum.

This is... actually not a bad point at all

[Ausuka]

Doctor drew when people try to get wagons through at deadline

[Ausuka]

yeet

Black [8]:

Firebringer,

Meuh

, Radical Rat, Doctor Drew, Bingle, Merlyn, Ausuka, Donempire

[HAMMER]

Bingle [2]:

The Bulge

, osuka

Doctor Drew [1]:

sheepsaysmeep

Firebringer [1]:

Black

Merlyn [1]:

Invisibility

sheepsaysmeep [1]:

Umlaut

not voting [1]:

Skygazer

I would be quite surprised to learn there was only one scum on Black.

Does anyone disagree with this and think it's likely there was only one scum on Black? Because that's... kind of important for where we choose to vote today.

Is it? Scum didn't even know Black's alignment and it was a rushed end-of-day wagon. I would have believed it possible that there were zero scum on the wagon if Meuh hadn't flipped red. There could also be three scum on the wagon or two or one, I don't know and I don't really see why you're treating it as a point of focus.

[Bingle]

like if ur going to argue that u don't have a meta and ur games are too similar to have a tell. Then ur basically asking everyone to null read u imo

and then if ur arguing im also very good at scum.
I don't know why i shouldn't just vote park u

If there was no external evidence (results of what I've done, results of things that would be against my wishes, interactions I've had with other people or other people have had with me that make us unlikely partners) I would be a fine compromise lim, sure. It's why, generally speaking, I'm an excellent investigation target.

In this case, I don't think it's reasonable to think I shoot someone I'm comfortably scumreading or a lurker slot I have no read on when I should be more concerned about not killing a partner than anything else. Even if you argue that I was faking my scumread on meuh, and was absolutely convinced she was town (lmao) she would still be a subpar kill over most of the thread because I could reasonably continue pushing there and not look suspicious for it. You say that NKA is going to be useless here, but you just have to apply it backwards. Who would a scumplayer absolutely not want to kill?

[Bingle]

I believe I talked before about their early recklessness not likely to come from scum in this setup, and then they dumbtelled forgetting the setup by questioning why I would wait for two scum to flip, which... osuka strikes me as being too egotistical to fake a mistake like that, and obviously would be more conscious of it as scum.

I townread him early for the recklessness as well, iirc, but I should probably go back and look at that. I don't know I buy the egotistical = reluctant to dumbtell bit, tbh. I think being unwilling to play dumb is more a function of insecurity than ego, and I don't think osuka is insecure. I think he genuinely doesn't believe he's a moron, and the GTKAS link in his sig makes me think he's willing to lean into being seen a moron for his own benefit.

I just can't get over how fucking awful this repeated attempt to twist my words into endorsing scumreads on me is, and frankly if I'm somehow wrong here we're probably more likely to win with osuka dead.

[Bingle]

Ausuka, what are your thoughts of the world?

Clearly I was wrong about you being scum with Meuh, which makes me feel a lot better about you, actually.

[Bingle]

• Invisibility - I think Vizzy here is still very town. She's chaotic and sheepy, but ime Vizzy just be like that. There's not really a concern coming from her that she's going to be in danger, and I haven't noticed anyone trying to make Vizzy's position stronger, which I would expect of someone loverpaired to her. I don't see an agenda, and I don't see any worry about being scumread for her actions. I geuss most of it boils down to gut and tone, but I just don't believe Vizzy is scum here.
  
• Firebringer - Firebringer is pretty clearly town here, imo. He started with a NAI gimmick, but he dropped it as soon as he saw something he thought was worth pushing. His case on me was a bad one, but I maintain that it's not something that scumbringer brings to bear on specifically me. Like, he brought up Elections as part of it, where he watched scum me shut down literally every scumread on my partner LLD from D1 to great effect. I'm not a player who it's easy to get a strong town read on D1, and if FB scum here was pushing me I think he'd get cold feet on getting rid of someone who he knows would be an asset throughout the game if I was scum. I would have expected Firebringer to want to investigate me N1 and then push me D2 when he got confirmation I was town, or (if he realized that the best use of the cop was to vet nightkills) to quietly shoot me N2.
  
• Radical Rat - Rat was very willing to put a E-1 down on basically nothing, and I maintain that's very +town for them specifically. They absolutely would have gotten the nuance of being afraid of sacrificing resources and they were not at all worried about that. Add to that the bits and pieces of strong analysis they bring in from time to time like the osuka ego thing, even when I don't agree with them, and I'm pretty sure that Rat is actually trying to solve this game.
  
• Ausuka- A lot of my concern about Ausuka died with Meuh. It's possible that Ausuka was humoring the Meuh townread, but posts like 869 actually make me think she's genuine in her thought processes. If I'm wrong on a strong townread, it's this one, but I don't think I am.
  
  
• Donempire - meh.
  
• Merlyn - Merlyn feels reasonable overall, and when I interact with her I get all the town feels, but when I actually try to pin down the read I just... What has she really done? For as here as she seems to be, there's a general lack of specific things I can remember liking about her.
  
  
• sheepsaysmeep
  
• Doctor Drew - The only thing I can really say here is that Drew does feel weird with his treatment of me. It's very much a buddying feel, and while it's not impossible it comes from town I think this is a pretty good bet on scum.
  
  
• Umlaut - Umlaut was definitely where I expected scum to be regarding my wagon yesterday, and the transition from "Maybe Bingle is an okay info lim but I don't really want it" to "We absolutely need to lim Bingle for information" doesn't seem natural at all. Honestly, my biggest hesitance in calling Umlaut scum is that he doesn't feel anywhere near as town as he did in Coalition, but that might be due to coalition being full of lurksacks and shittunnels.
  
• osuka

[Ausuka]

Ausuka, what are your thoughts of the world?

Clearly I was wrong about you being scum with Meuh, which makes me feel a lot better about you, actually.

\o/ rn every time i open the thread i want to close it again.

Invis and umlaut are probably where i want to look most right now. Invis's posts on d2 have just been about arguing the nk makes her town which doesn't really mesh with the idea she doesn't care about how she's read to me, and his d1 pushes particularly merlyn felt kind of in retrospect. It doesn't seem like there's any interest in limming there today though. Umlaut's focus on the wagon aspect, when scum didn't even know what black was and it was just a deadline wagon, felt meh. I was also not a fan of his vote on me d1 and how it was just 'you didn't do anything towny' at the stage of the game where PoE is like not really a thing, he didn't really talk about why my read on black was scummy after I clarified it or anything, etc etc. Ultimately as you have gone to great pains to stress I might be OMGUSsing so you decide if it's scummy or not shrug. I also don't really like how he plays normally a lot of the time, with the push on cook/sheep and basically most of his townreads, and then occasionally drops something like 'ausuka didnt post anything towny' or 'let's eliminate bingle for i n f o r m a t i o n'
Also to be more specific the meat of his push on sheep was like, sheep says "I prefer to lim not bingle but I can vote bingle over no lim" and umlaut is like "Well this is planning a jump onto the bingle wagon while not taking responsibility" even though that's just how deadlines work? it kind of just felt like he was trying to push sheep through rather than sort I guess. Maybe he got the sense sheep slot was probably town limbait and decided it was the best push? Idk, scumhunting is definitely harder when there's no actual informed minority

Idk if osuka is scum? stuff like stuff like, "you call this reason bad but you state that fb believes it. wouldn't that make it a "good" reason in his mind? it's clearly good enough to get him to vote you" makes me want to side with you in the argument and it's not like you were wrong about meuh being scum which was your conclusion from the whole thing. town wagoning town does happen all the time and 'wagonomics' or whatever is even less reliable in a game where, crucially, the scum do not know each other, so i'm not sure if i understand the point at all. i think my 'omgus' vote was explained but i feel like it's still common enough to call votes like that omgus. i do feel like saying ??? things is not a super reliable scumtell and i've had moments in the past where i didn't know what osuka was talking about and we were both town- but like scum osuka probably does do stuff like that too. Maybe drew saying 'osuka isn't being aggressive enough' made him ramp it up to 1000 to the point it makes no sense? It's kind of annoying to read and think about and i'm not super confident i'm going to get a read out of it. If osuka is scum it would make sense for him to be scum with firebringer

I struggle to read people like drew because instinctively I don't like his play and want to vote for him even though he feels somewhat like tunnelly town but I feel like, when I feel the way I do about drew, the person often ends up flipping town, if that makes sense? I feel like his reads have been super stagnant but I guess some people play like that. I'd probably just be willing to sheep someone towny on the drew read.

I think I townread you and sheep and not really anyone else. Merlyn and RR and maybe fire? Are probably more on the town side of neutral.

[osuka]

He's like a YouTube commenter

ouch

this hurts more than my head hurts right now and i have like a cataclysmic hangover

[osuka]

like if ur going to argue that u don't have a meta and ur games are too similar to have a tell. Then ur basically asking everyone to null read u imo

and then if ur arguing im also very good at scum.
I don't know why i shouldn't just vote park u

i agree with everything you’ve said up until exactly here.

we’ve played together before, in a game where i explicitly said i actively try to set my meta on fire every time i play. most of the time i’m also aiming for the null consensus, which i also believe i mentioned in that game

what part of this doesn’t apply to me?

[Merlyn]

What has she really done? For as here as she seems to be, there's a general lack of specific things I can remember liking about her.

that's what people said about me at my high school reunion

[Merlyn]

My main scumread hasn't really changed and I'm kind of just skimming though the Osuka/Bingle fight. I'll go back and look for things that have changed for me

[Bingle]

My main scumread hasn't really changed and I'm kind of just skimming though the Osuka/Bingle fight. I'll go back and look for things that have changed for me

I assume this means don? Sell me on why he's scum?

[Datisi]

vote count 2.02

with 11 votes in play, it takes 6 to make a decision. day 2 ends in (expired on 2023-07-08 15:30:00).

yeet

Bingle [2]:

osuka, Umlaut

osuka [2]:

Bingle, Doctor Drew

Firebringer [1]:

Donempire

Donempire [1]:

Radical Rat

Invisibility [1]:

Ausuka

not voting [4]:

Invisibility, Merlyn, Firebringer, sheepsaysmeep

mod notes

this is a mod note.

flavour

[Radical Rat]

He's like a YouTube commenter

ouch

this hurts more than my head hurts right now and i have like a cataclysmic hangover

It's meant with love

[Invisibility]

this was one of my nullslots and the way Umlaut is talking about wagons in a setup where what they're saying doesn't make sense (which people have already said what is to be said about that I think. Like how Umlaut's questions are pointless) rubs me the wrong way VOTE: Umlaut

[Invisibility]

If I were to guess, I'd say both scum pairs probably would have gone one on/one off, but I don't want to be building cases off of that assumption

yeah it's not like both scum in a pair can be faulted for knowingly limming town when they like, didn't know

[Invisibility]

Osuka isn't 'as' clear of a read for me. It is based off vibes from previous games where they seemed way more aggressive. It really wasn't until the back and forth got going with Bingle didn't come out, but seemed a bit manufactured. I mentioned I this Ausuka has a high probability of being scum as well, this is partly because they were in the first game I was with Osuka and they keep saying they are just as, or more aggressive here, something isn't jiving there.

I don't think I have the previous experience with Osuka to say for sure but I felt like Osuka was pretty dang aggro out of the gate with 120 and 134

[Doctor Drew]

Osuka isn't 'as' clear of a read for me. It is based off vibes from previous games where they seemed way more aggressive. It really wasn't until the back and forth got going with Bingle didn't come out, but seemed a bit manufactured. I mentioned I this Ausuka has a high probability of being scum as well, this is partly because they were in the first game I was with Osuka and they keep saying they are just as, or more aggressive here, something isn't jiving there.

I don't think I have the previous experience with Osuka to say for sure but I felt like Osuka was pretty dang aggro out of the gate with 120 and 134

That's the thing, that is Osuka holding back. You are kinda seeing some of the real aggression come out now with the back and forth with Bingle.....but even that feels performative.

Also fuck you Bingle you piece of human garbage.....see? Totally not trying to buddy them lol.

I keep saying it, I just never saw what other people saw in Bingle. Plus he is part of the Whiskey Pocket, though so is Umlaut and I am feeling more wary of them as days go by.

Ausuka, I don't change my reads for the sake of changing them, you can call it stagnant, but if nothing causes me to change them why would I. That being said here is a nice 180 for you(or maybe a 90 lol), your reads list does read pretty towny and your fleshed out read on me is kinda how my game goes, so there is that.

[Invisibility]

well hot dang I can only imagine what Osuka is like in most games

[Doctor Drew]

viewtopic.php?t=90809

[Doctor Drew]

viewtopic.php?t=90720

Two games I have experience with them.