Open 106 - Impotence Mafia (Game Over!) before 714

[StrangerCoug]

I hereby understand and confirm my role.

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: EmpTyger

. Why don't I have stripes like you?

[StrangerCoug]

Soo I just noticed. We have to catch the mafia, right? Well they are gonna try to play like the town. So how do we know who is in the mafia?

That's what we will hope to find out.

Anyway, all other random votes are irrelevent as we will by lynching StrangerCoug today.

Vote: StrangerCoug

I know there are joke votes and random voting but what is with this comment.

Oh I know he's just kidding with me xD

Also do we really need to confuse people with fake claiming scum roles Nat?

Not to meta-defend him, but keep in mind that Natirasha acts anti-town in general. He has admitted to being the serial killer in at least one game, though.

[StrangerCoug]

Hence "at least one"—the one game I played with you where you did so and actually were the serial killer.

[StrangerCoug]

Natirasha:
I'm giving you 24 hours to convince me not to vote you.

I'm officially making my random vote a real vote for threatening to vote another player.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm officially making my random vote a real vote for threatening to vote another player.

Is that really a scumtell?

Some people consider it so, and knowing Natirasha the way EmpTyger's post is worded rubs me the wrong way. (EmpTyger may not be familiar with Natirasha's meta, but seriously, why give another player an ultimatum?) The massclaim issue is another thing against Emp, and I don't like the idea of it at this stage of the game.

[StrangerCoug]

The ultimatum is because we are under a deadline situation and I see no advantage in waiting. Why do you think an unhelpful player should be tolerated?

I don't think unhelpful players should be tolerated, but I don't like the concept of an ultimatum in Mafia either. I buy your defense for the ultimatum, however, so I will

unvote

you. I'll look at reactions when I check on my other games.

-----

Vote Count:

ZazieR

(1) - yorgi

mrfixij

(0)

chenhsi

(0)

yorgi

(0)

EmpTyger

(3) - chenhsi, Zakeri, Caboose

afatchic

(0)

BlondeSoWut

(2) - ZazieR, Appassionata

StrangerCoug

(1) - BlondeSoWut

Appassionata

(0)

Zakeri

(0)

Caboose

(1) - mrfixij

Natirasha

(2) - Natirasha, afatchic

Not voting

(2) - EmpTyger, StrangerCoug

With 12 players alive, 7 votes will achieve a lynch.

Deadline for Day 1 is January 3.

[StrangerCoug]

OK, looking at this EmpTyger/Natirasha deal again, I'm still looking at EmpTyger, but for the massclaim suggestion instead of the ultimatum. As I said, I see why EmpTyger's is going after Natirasha, and I'm not liking Nat either. I'm pretty sure at least one of these two people is scum at this point, but page 3 is too early to say anything definitive.

FoS: Natirasha and EmpTyger

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote, Vote Appassionata.

Any particular reason? We're clearly out of random voting.

[StrangerCoug]

Not sure which one's really scummier than the other, but I'm leaning EmpTyger at the moment.

...Ah, what the hell.

Vote: EmpTyger

again.

[StrangerCoug]

SC:

OK, looking at this EmpTyger/Natirasha deal again, I'm still looking at EmpTyger, but for the massclaim suggestion instead of the ultimatum. As I said, I see why EmpTyger's is going after Natirasha, and I'm not liking Nat either. I'm pretty sure at least one of these two people is scum at this point, but page 3 is too early to say anything definitive.

Why did you eliminate the possibility that we are both innocent?

When two people are pretty high on my scum list, them both being innocent is simply not something I think about. I know that I could be completely wrong, and I may find people more suspicious than you two, but that's my current stance.

And, specifically, what are you finding suspicious about my suggestion?

It's already been addressed, so I didn't talk about it, but since you asked so nicely, I will: A vig massclaim supports the Mafia more than the town. To massclaim vig/not vig means that it takes at most two nights to completely shut down the vig. The first night, the mafia roleblocks one claimed vig and kills another. If the town gets a nightkill, the roleblocked vig has to be one of the two shooting blanks, so the best roleblocking target is the vig that the Mafia didn't do anything to the previous night.

<snip>
I'll look at reactions when I check on my other games.

Did you find anything?

Most people seem to be going pro-town about it.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP due to crosspost: Caboose, I'll address your case when I get back home. Have to look at apartments now.

[StrangerCoug]

OK, as promised, here's my response to Caboose:

Something that I find odd:

Stranger, any particular reason for the double FOS while you have a vote available to be cast?

Not sure which one's really scummier than the other, but I'm leaning EmpTyger at the moment.

...Ah, what the hell. Vote: EmpTyger again.

So, you only place a vote right

after

someone calls you down on it? That's kind of weird to me and it kind of looks like scum cracking under pressure. Plus, the vote looks hastily placed.

Vote: StrangerCoug

I didn't want to revote EmpTyger so soon after unvoting him, but given my vote on him was for the ultimatum against Natirasha and he explained why he felt it necessary, I removed my vote. I had nothing new to contribute to his massclaim idea, which is why I didn't originally addressed it. Yes, I revoted in response to mrfixij, but that was because I realized that I should have taken his massclaim suggestion into account before unvoting, which I failed to do.

[StrangerCoug]

I didn't want to revote EmpTyger so soon after unvoting him, but given my vote on him was for the ultimatum against Natirasha and he explained why he felt it necessary, I removed my vote. I had nothing new to contribute to his massclaim idea, which is why I didn't originally addressed it. Yes, I revoted in response to mrfixij, but that was because I realized that I should have taken his massclaim suggestion into account before unvoting, which I failed to do.

Why is Emp's suggestion of vig claim scummy?

I answered this already. Post #67.

[StrangerCoug]

Anything that helps the Mafia more than the town is scummy in my eyes, thus the idea is scummy in my eyes.

[StrangerCoug]

It's very possible for townies to have bad ideas. Miserable ideas, even. But EmpTyger admitted that he didn't think it through all the way before bringing it up, and he should have thought it through all the way.

[StrangerCoug]

I believe so on both counts, but the one example I can think of off the top of my head is unfortunately ongoing. Your question convinces enough for me to go ahead and

unvote EmpKing

, however.

I believe you mean EmpTyger.

Natirasha's general anti-town behavior is still helping nobody, so

vote: Natirasha

.

[StrangerCoug]

I thought I said Nat was helpless, not useless.

[StrangerCoug]

Soo I just noticed. We have to catch the mafia, right? Well they are gonna try to play like the town. So how do we know who is in the mafia?

That's what we will hope to find out.

Anyway, all other random votes are irrelevent as we will by lynching StrangerCoug today.

Vote: StrangerCoug

I know there are joke votes and random voting but what is with this comment.

Oh I know he's just kidding with me xD

Also do we really need to confuse people with fake claiming scum roles Nat?

Not to meta-defend him, but keep in mind that Natirasha acts anti-town in general. He has admitted to being the serial killer in at least one game, though.

Why did you call Nat anti-town in this post? I thought that the scumclaim by Nat was clearly a joke.

I implied that being anti-town was his meta. Not that he was really antitown in this game yet.

I'm officially making my random vote a real vote for threatening to vote another player.

Voting for EmpTyger for something that's not a scumtell.
+scumpoints

I'd explain my experience with this, but it's in an ongoing game. But depending on the circumstances, it can be a scumtell.

Some people consider it so, and knowing Natirasha the way EmpTyger's post is worded rubs me the wrong way. (EmpTyger may not be familiar with Natirasha's meta, but seriously, why give another player an ultimatum?) The massclaim issue is another thing against Emp, and I don't like the idea of it at this stage of the game.

EmpTyger was trying to get Nat to not be useless, and you vote him for it? I don't get that. How is offering an ultimatum to get someone to stop acting anti-town scummy? And the fact that you're voting Nat yourself for being useless just adds to the hypocrisy here.
+more scumpoints

I think EmpTyger and Natirasha are scummy independent of each other. Unlike EmpTyger, I never said anything along the lines of "stop doing this unless you want me to vote you". My first vote on EmpTyger was for the threat itself, not the reasons thereof which was the basis of my unvote. I felt was right for EmpTyger to call Natirasha out for his actions. I did not feel it was right, however, for EmpTyger to give Natirasha an ultimatum. Clear?

I don't think unhelpful players should be tolerated, but I don't like the concept of an ultimatum in Mafia either. I buy your defense for the ultimatum, however, so I will unvote you. I'll look at reactions when I check on my other games.

I don't see what your hang up is over Emp's threat. He's pretty much doing what you're doing now, which is basically saying "Be helpful or be lynched."

My later posts reflect my understanding of why Emp did what he did. I do not see myself as a hypocrite regarding this given I dropped the ultimatum case when I started pressuring Natirasha.

I don't like the unvote, either. You tried to make a crap case on Emp and then you backed off when you saw that it would blow up in your face.
+even more scumpoints

See response to my #5 in isolation.

OK, looking at this EmpTyger/Natirasha deal again, I'm still looking at EmpTyger, but for the massclaim suggestion instead of the ultimatum. As I said, I see why EmpTyger's is going after Natirasha, and I'm not liking Nat either. I'm pretty sure at least one of these two people is scum at this point, but page 3 is too early to say anything definitive.

FoS: Natirasha and EmpTyger

Don't know why you FoS'ed Nat since he didn't do anything particularly scummy. This post also suggests fencesitting which = more scumpoints.

I don't like rehashing what I or other people have said, and once again I was hesitant to revote Natirasha so soon.

Skipping over your case on my #9–#13 in isolation as either stuff I've addressed the best I can already or stuff I'll address below.

It's very possible for townies to have bad ideas. Miserable ideas, even. But EmpTyger admitted that he didn't think it through all the way before bringing it up, and he should have thought it through all the way.

Not thinking off all possibilities before bring up an idea =/= scummy

It's still more pro-town to think things completely through than not.

I believe so on both counts, but the one example I can think of off the top of my head is unfortunately ongoing. Your question convinces enough for me to go ahead and unvote EmpKing, however.

Natirasha's general anti-town behavior is still helping nobody, so vote: Natirasha.

You jump off of Emp and go onto Nat, still with no explanation as to all this anti-town behavior Nat is showing.

Again, I don't like rehashing stuff already said. You yourself have said that some of his posts are useless. Not all of them, but I find fluff posts like those you brought up scummy.

I thought I said Nat was helpless, not useless.

WHY?

Has Natirasha contributed to scumhunting worth squat yet, for example?

[StrangerCoug]

Why are people only looking at Emp and Nat as mafia? What about Ap and Chen?

Why Appassionata and chenhsi?

[StrangerCoug]

SC:

When two people are pretty high on my scum list, them both being innocent is simply not something I think about. I know that I could be completely wrong, and I may find people more suspicious than you two, but that's my current stance.
<snip>

Your suspicions happen to align with who has the most votes and why they’ve gotten them, even to the point of contradiction. Why would you attack me for attacking Natirasha, when Natirasha is your second highest suspect?

I just clarified it's the ultimatum itself that was the reason for my first vote on you, not specifically you issuing it against Natirasha. I unvoted when you explained that you were using it to try to get Natirasha to, in a word, behave.

<snip>
I'll look at reactions when I check on my other games.

Did you find anything?

Most people seem to be going pro-town about it.

That’s nice and vague. Which people- more importantly, who not?[/quote]
I thought Zakeri's and Caboose's responses were the most helpful, and BlondeSoWut seems to be pro-town. I don't like how Natirasha acted, but probably because I'm against massclaiming vig/non-vig on Day 1. I wasn't specific because I thought the town in general reacted in a pro-town manner.

It's very possible for townies to have bad ideas. Miserable ideas, even. But EmpTyger admitted that he didn't think it through all the way before bringing it up, and he should have thought it through all the way.

I *strongly* disagree. To take an extreme example: in lynch-or-lose, then, you’d argue that a player should just cast a vote when they think they’re ready, and do nothing- no discussion of thoughts, no seeking of feedback until then? Of course not.
No, it is antitown to do nothing until you’re sure. That is how mafia get to not commit to anything, giving them maximum potential opportunism.

I understand you here, but I don't remember saying town wasn't allowed to think out loud; in fact, if thinking out loud was forbidden, this game would go nowhere.

[StrangerCoug]

My next suspect is Zakeri:
However she hasn’t really posted much so I can’t really post much against her. But what I don’t like is her excuse to jump onto Natirasha. She uses the excuse because she has said she would be no help, which for multiple reasons is wrong.

Natirasha is male.

2) this isn’t scummy in itself. And if she refuses to be helpful, get the mod to replace her.

I'm not a fan of getting the mod to eject people for refusing to be of any help per se, but there are some case where I find this warranted (e.g. the only thing someone's done all game is spew insults).

[StrangerCoug]

What does it matter that Emp gave Nat an ultimatum?

It doesn't and it never has. It mattered that Emp gave an ultimatum period. Why is this still unclear?

So wait a second. Giving ultimatums is a scumtell, and it's basically what you're doing.

Show me where I personally am giving another player an ultimatum.

What's your current stance on ultimatums being a scumtell?

Still think so. Scummy kind of pushy.

So the person who deserves your vote has the most scumpoints or the least townpoints?

To be grammatically correct, the fewest townpoints pretty much. I generally equate anti-town with scummy unless otherwise is obvious.

Is it possible

not

to have a few fluff posts in a game?

Yes, whether I like them or not.

Go down the list of players and tell me the people who have contributed to scumhunting worth a "squat" then, according to your judgement.

I will when you answer my question.

[StrangerCoug]

SC:
I'm not sure whether you're reaching to find reasons to consider me more suspicious than Natirasha, or bending over backwards to find reasons to consider Natirasha less suspicious than me.

Both of you have acted suspicious.

<snip>
I don't like how Natirasha acted, but probably because I'm against massclaiming vig/non-vig on Day 1.
<snip>

So, you think Natirasha is suspicious- but vote me for voting him.

How freaking hard is it to understand that I originally voted you for the ultimatum itself and I would have reacted the same at that point if you had issued an ultimatum against any other player in the game!?

Then, when that doesn't work, you say that the massclaim is more significant, and vote me again- but you just said that Natirasha's reaction to the massclaim was also antitown.

Hence why I've looked at both of you.

<snip>
It's very possible for townies to have bad ideas. Miserable ideas, even. But EmpTyger admitted that he didn't think it through all the way before bringing it up, and he should have thought it through all the way.

I *strongly* disagree. To take an extreme example: in lynch-or-lose, then, you’d argue that a player should just cast a vote when they think they’re ready, and do nothing- no discussion of thoughts, no seeking of feedback until then? Of course not.
No, it is antitown to do nothing until you’re sure. That is how mafia get to not commit to anything, giving them maximum potential opportunism.

I understand you here, but I don't remember saying town wasn't allowed to think out loud; in fact, if thinking out loud was forbidden, this game would go nowhere.

You don't remember? Um, I *quoted* you saying it. As I just did again.

And, incidentally, you can't just wave your hands and say "I'm doing something that doesn't make any logical sense but I can't say why." It didn't work for McCarthy.[/quote]
Damn it, you got me there.

[StrangerCoug]

Also SC: I'm confused by one thing reading over you and Cabosse. Are you stating you believe Nat is scum?

Yes.

[StrangerCoug]

It doesn't and it never has. It mattered that Emp gave an ultimatum period. Why is this still unclear?

So the "24-hour" thing in Emp's ultimatum was the scumtell?

The 24 hour thing does have to do with my interpreting it as scummy, yes.

Show me where I personally am giving another player an ultimatum.

You putting your vote is an implicit ultimatum, pretty much saying "Scumhunt or die."

OK then, we have differing opinions on what does and does not constitute an ultimatum.

Yes, whether I like them or not.

What's random voting for, then?

Random votes help get the game started; therefore, random votes ≠ fluff posts. If there's no content and no purpose for it, then it's fluff.

[StrangerCoug]

It's still not a scumtell. But it is really scummy that you're jumping on Emp for something that is not a scumtell.

I interpreted the ultimatum as a scummy kind of pushy. Making demands may not be scummy, but I think being pushy like that is.

[StrangerCoug]

Whats the difference between making a demand and being pushy?

Making a demand is "Do this or else." Being pushy is being bossy. You don't have to make a demand to be pushy.

[StrangerCoug]

Okay, I think you’re just making your reasons up as you go along. It’s gone from “threatening to vote Natirasha” to “making an ultimatum” to simply “being pushy”. And from “suggesting a massclaim” to “not thinking something all the way through” to simply “thinking out loud”.

I want to you to lay out your complete case against me, now.

Not just a list of what I’ve done; I want an explanation of why you think what I’ve done is suspicious. Because that part keeps changing.

Will do:

I’m considering an immediate massclaim of vigilante/not-vigilante. Still tihnking through, but the way I see it:

1) We force the mafia to claim before they have a strategy.
2) The mafia don’t learn the identity of our powerroles. (The real vig is masked in 2 “vanillas”, the roleblocker is masked by 5 vanillas.)

Vigilantes are power roles. The benefit to the Mafia is that they'll eventually find out who the vig is by process of elimination. The odds of the town roleblocker hitting the Mafia roleblocker isn't very high mathematically, and I fear that the vig shooting real bullets will be found and even possibly dead before the town RB locates the Mafia RB. Which is why the consensus is that your idea is bad. The Mafia want the actual vig dead before the Mafia RB is blocked himself, do they not?

Natirasha:
I'm giving you 24 hours to convince me not to vote you.

The pushy ultimatum. Again, being pushy is scummy.

While I'm at it, prove that it mattered to me that your ultimatum was against Natirasha.

The ultimatum is because we are under a deadline situation and I see no advantage in waiting. Why do you think an unhelpful player should be tolerated?

OK, I bought this. For me to attack this, therefore, is invalid.

[StrangerCoug]

I remember saying that I think Natirasha and EmpTyger are scum independent of each other.

[StrangerCoug]

I remember saying that I think Natirasha and EmpTyger are scum independent of each other.

Um...how? You realize there is only one scum faction, right?

Yes. What I mean by you two being scum independent of each other is that I think you two are scum for different reasons and I see no connection between you.

[StrangerCoug]

Also, how is the idea of a "mass-claim" scummy, it has it's logical parts.

It benefits the Mafia more than the town.

[StrangerCoug]

Heyy. Finals week here. Soo crazy!!

Soo. What did I miss. Did we lynch anyone?

Today is the 11th and the game started on the 3rd, so that would mean someone would have been speedlynched. Didn't happen, but I'm pretty sure that either I'm the primary suspect or I'm mentally blowing the case on me out of proportion.

About 40 minutes away from a final myself, so wish me luck on that part.

[StrangerCoug]

Caboose, cus he followed the crowd with his vote and hes too quiet! And hes got no real reason for his vote. If I was in the mafia Id just vote for who everyone else is voting and stay quiet. Thats wut hes doing.

One, there's not a lot to talk about. Two, I'm debating whether or not this is WIFOM.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: I thought he was asking you about me instead of about Appassionasta, but the points still stand.

[StrangerCoug]

SC - How would it be a WIFOM?

BlondeSoWhat made an "I would do X as scum" statement, which is a classic component of WIFOM. I'm used to people trying to use WIFOM as a defense, but here it's an attack. WIFOM is still an effed up mind game.

[StrangerCoug]

So WIFOM can indeed be used as an attack, mrfixij?

[StrangerCoug]

So WIFOM can indeed be used as an attack, mrfixij?

Please elaborate. WIFOM is essentially fluff that adds nothing to conversation except the illusion of thought. Or, in more realistic terms, the illusion of practical thought. WIFOM is neither pro-town nor anti-town, it's just shoveling.

Would using "I would do X as scum" as justification for voting someone for doing X him- or herself qualify as attacking someone with WIFOM?

[StrangerCoug]

"Role playing"?

[StrangerCoug]

Heyy! I'm smarder than you guys thinkk!

I swear I think Apass is in the mafia! Hes doing exactly wut I would if I was in the mafia.

And if hes in the mafia so is Yorgi. He doesnt talk about Yorgi at all. He wants town peoples lynched. Hes not gunna waste his time on the other mafia peoples.

...Do you even know what the hell you are talking about? I'll leave whether it's WIFOM to accuse someone of something you say you'd do as Mafia up for debate, but using your weak reasoning for suspecting Appassionata to put yorgi in a scummy light? Something is wrong with this picture.

Unvote: EmpTyger
Vote: BlondeSoWut

[StrangerCoug]

Caboose Im only saying Yorgi is in the mafia if Apass is. I said so in case I die before Apass.

Yet there's nothing substantial backing up your saying so.

[StrangerCoug]

When two people are pretty high on my scum list, them both being innocent is simply not something I think about.

Why not?

The short and sweet answer is that it's their job, not mine, to prove their innocence. Me thinking about them both being innocent also doesn't fit with my aggressive play style. In theory, I could have a knife at everybody's throat, but I am rarely set off by an entire game. But if you want someone lynched, you push and push and push.

[StrangerCoug]

I could also ask what’s insubstantial about BSW’s observation that Apassionata seems to be ignoring Yorgi. Or, better, how come you’re ignoring me all of a sudden.

The insubstantialness is that BlondeSoWut is using WIFOM to paint both of them in a scummy light. (I'm not denying that distancing is a scum tell; I simply have nothing with which to back their doing so.) Why I'm ignoring you all of a sudden, if I interpret you correctly, is because I think I have a more substantial case on BSW than on you.

-----

Vote Count:

xofelf

(0)

mrfixij

(0)

chenhsi

(0)

yorgi

(0)

EmpTyger

(1) - chenhsi

afatchic

(0)

BlondeSoWut

(2) - StrangerCoug, yorgi

StrangerCoug

(3) - Caboose, Natirasha, EmpTyger

Appassionata

(1) - BlondeSoWut

Zakeri

(1) - mrfixij

Caboose

(0)

Natirasha

(2) - afatchic, Zakeri

Not voting

(1) - Appassionata, xofelf

With 12 players alive, 7 votes will achieve a lynch.

Deadline for Day 1 is January 3.

[StrangerCoug]

SC:
BSW said, essentially:
“Observation: If Apassionata is mafia, then I suspect yorgi is too for <reason>.
<reason> = Apassionata seems to be ignoring yorgi.”
1)

That’s not WIFOM.

It makes absolutely no claim about how mafia would not act.

You missed BlondeSoWut's saying "If I were Mafia, I'd do it too", which is where I'm getting the WIFOM.

2) I asked you what’s insubstantial about <reason> and all you could say is that the observation is insubstantial. In fact, you don’t deny that <reason> is valid- you admit that to you it’s a valid scumtell!

To me, insubstantial = with little or no backing. There's not much else I see to it. Of course I admitted the tell (in this case, distancing) as valid. However, I don't see anything solid to back it up. Apassionata could be distancing from yorgi by ignoring her, or yorgi simply may not have said anything to catch Apassionata's attention. yorgi is, however, voting BlondeSoWut for roughly the same reason that I am.

And, for good measure, how is Natirasha not strictly worse than BSW using your logic?

Natirasha's just plain anti-town. BlondeSoWut is painting two people in a scummy light based on how he claims he would be playing as Mafia.

Once again you are finding a reason not to vote Natirasha… (let me guess, this is me insubstantially using WIFOM, right?)

If I'm reading what you're saying in a negative way, it looks more to me like you're poisoning Natirasha's well than insubstantially using WIFOM, but to address your concern, I simply believe I can better back up my vote on BlondeSoWut than on Natirasha, though the latter hasn't completely gone away as a suspect.

[StrangerCoug]

I don't like the fact that Stranger is voting for BSW who is ultimately unconfirmable as of now.

How am I any more confirmable than BlondeSoWut?

[StrangerCoug]

Why do you refer to BSW as “he”?

Because I'm paying more attention to my case on her than her gender.

That’s *still* not WIFOM.

It *still* makes absolutely no claim about how mafia would not act.

Prove that, to be guilty of WIFOM, you must make a claim as to how mafia would not act as opposed to how they would act. Last time I checked, it worked either way.

BSW made 2 observation:
1) She suspects Appassionata is mafia because <reason1>.
2) If Appassionata is mafia, then she suspects yorgi too, because <reason2>.

You argue that BSW is mafia because <reason2> is insubstantial in proving <statement1>. Which, compared to some of your more egregious illogical attacks this game, almost isn’t even worth attacking.

<reason1> is insubstantial in the first place.

And, for good measure, how is Natirasha not strictly worse than BSW using your logic?

Natirasha's just plain anti-town. BlondeSoWut is painting two people in a scummy light based on how he claims he would be playing as Mafia.
<snip>

And, once again, how is Natirasha not strictly worse than BSW using that logic?

How is my answer not an appropriate response?

[StrangerCoug]

BlondeSoWut, acting like you're a paranoid person on caffeine isn't helping the case on you any.

[StrangerCoug]

Emp, I really really really really want to win! Thats why Im playing! So Im trying to find out whos in the mafia. I think its App so I said that and I said why. I know I might die so incase I do, I said Yorgi could be in the mafia with App. I really am trying. I dont know wut more you want from me. I said who I think is in the mafia. I voted for him. I said why. I answered questions. Now people are voting for me. I dont get it.

You sound really stupid, and annoying.

Vote: BSW

OMGUS? Being stupid, or annoying does not decide alignment, fyi.

Unvote, Vote Appassionata

As suspicious as I find BlondeSoWut (for WIFOM, whether EmpTyger agrees with me or not), I agree that being stupid and annoying does not warrant a vote, and I see where you're getting the OMGUS accusation from. BSW screams more scum than village idiot to me, though.

As a side note, I think it's kind of ironic that I don't want to waste my time and energy on EmpTyger either.

[StrangerCoug]

Really what am I doing wrong? What is stupid about the way Im playing? I said who I think is in the mafia. I said why. What more do you want? Really.

You to control yourself, for one thing *facepalm*

[StrangerCoug]

As a side note, I think it's kind of ironic that I don't want to waste my time and energy on EmpTyger either.

Why are you being so dismissive?

I've explained my actions to him all that I can and the only thing we seem to be able to do is disagree with each other.

[StrangerCoug]

And, for those still thinking your responses legit:

Why do you refer to BSW as “he”?

Because I'm paying more attention to my case on her than her gender.
<snip>

My next suspect is Zakeri:
However she hasn’t really posted much so I can’t really post much against her. But what I don’t like is her excuse to jump onto Natirasha. She uses the excuse because she has said she would be no help, which for multiple reasons is wrong.

Natirasha is male.
<snip>

You asked whether I kept calling BlondeSoWut "he". People do pay more attention to their own cases than the genders of who they're attacking, and while I have suspected Natirasha I have never had a solid case on him. Now we're bickering over stupid trivia that has very little to do with the game. That's why I'm done arguing with you.

[StrangerCoug]

4) Falsely accused a player of WIFOM.

This is where the "disagreement" part comes in. I say WIFOM is a claim as to how mafia would or would not act; you think only the latter constitutes WIFOM. To use an example (that obviously doesn't apply to this game, but still gets the point across), you'd think that if a claimed doctor survives the night, the claim must be false. But what if the Mafia decided to roleblock him? What if the Mafia decided to do nothing seeing as he or she is acting suspicious enough that there's a chance to mislynch him or her? Are there not elements of WIFOM involved in this scenario?

True story: Open 81. I was driven to claim vig on Day 1. The Mafia attempted to kill me Night 2, but I was protected by the doctor. Subsequently the Mafia decided that I was to their benefit despite being cleared (since that's what you get for announcing targets) and that the doctor had done suspicious enough things to warrant being kept around. Both of us made it to LYLO. End result? Vanilla townie gets mislynched and the doctor and I force the game into a draw. Do you not think WIFOM was involved in keeping the doctor especially around?

5) The point to the gender slip was that either

you know BSW’s true identity (implying that you talked with her about it pregame) or you were lying about how seriously you were considering Natirasha suspicious.

First of all, prove that, by consistently using the masculine singular pronoun to refer to BlondeSoWut, I know BSW's true identity. For BSW to be female would mean that the gender displayed next to his/her posts is incorrect. Natirasha's gender is not relevant to my case on him (regardless of my case's solidity); that would be sexist. That's why I'm dismissing the gender issue as "stupid trivia", and I'm still confused as to why the hell you're bringing up two of my references to other people's genders and twisting them to make them sound related when they are not.

FoS: EmpTyger

Also, just noticing that you never responded to this:

<snip>
I can’t think of why you care, or why you think the mafia care that much whether the mafia roleblocker is blocked. They get slightly less information, but that’s nothing to do with whether the real vigilante is dead or alive. Really curious where you’re going with this.
<snip>

The mafia RB being blocked was simply something I failed to account for when I jumped at the massclaim issue.

[StrangerCoug]

Stranger- if you don't pay attention to peoples gender sign, then why would you assume Blondesowut is male?

I did not say I don't pay

ANY

attention to people's genders. I simply said I paid more attention to case than gender.

[StrangerCoug]

It's simply a bad habit that many people have to automatically assume people on the Internet are male.

[StrangerCoug]

Stranger- if you don't pay attention to peoples gender sign, then why would you assume Blondesowut is male?

I did not say I don't pay

ANY

attention to people's genders. I simply said I paid more attention to case than gender.

Obviously you didn't pay attention to it, so why did you assume someone by the name blondesowut would be male?

Why the heck does that matter at all?

That's my question to EmpTyger.

[StrangerCoug]

If BSW is an alt, then I don't know who it's an alt of. Even if I knew or were to figure out for the life of me that an account is an alt, I for the life of me wouldn't know how to determine who it really is. Looking at this from a third party's point of view, it makes more sense for EmpTyger to attack me with the alt case than the gender case. EmpTyger's gender case is invalid for reasons I've already stated; implied inside knowledge is a scum tell and I would be able to see where he'd be coming from in terms of that.

[StrangerCoug]

I think the Alt case, and gender case are the same thing aren't they? he is saying you know that persons alt because you continually call them a male when gender says female and everything about the name says female, which would imply you know something more than we do, either by RL friendship, or scumbuddies.

*grumble, grumble* That's what I get for mistaking her with you. But no, they are not the same as his "gender case" also involves Natirasha.

[StrangerCoug]

SC:
Are you conceding my points 1-3, or are you hoping that if you ignore them and only talk about 4 and 5, people will forget about the rest?

Points 1-3 are conceded.

4) [WIFOM]

<snip>
To use an example (that obviously doesn't apply to this game, but still gets the point across), you'd think that if a claimed doctor survives the night, the claim must be false. But what if the Mafia decided to roleblock him? What if the Mafia decided to do nothing seeing as he or she is acting suspicious enough that there's a chance to mislynch him or her? Are there not elements of WIFOM involved in this scenario?

The relevant argument would be that mafia would *not* leave a claimed doctor alive, so yes of course that's WIFOM! (And if the mafia *do* kill the doctor- then there's *no* WIFOM! You can't secondguess something that did happen, only what didn't happen. I mean, seriously, consult a script of Princess Bride: the WIFOM scene is about how Vizzini making various inferences about how his opponent would *not* put the poison in glass A, and *not* in glass B.)

The way you are trying to twist the definition of WIFOM, every time someone accuses someone else of doing something suspicious, it's WIFOM.

That is absolutely false. This is saying that I think, for example, OMGUS is a subset of WIFOM. They're both scum tells, but I know them to be distinct. What set me off is that BSW said she'd do what Appassionata was doing as scum herself. The case itself does not constitute WIFOM.

I'm not going to address the goddamn gender issue anymore since you and I should both know by now that it's crap. I just admitted to mistaking BlondeSoWut with afatchic and therefore the former's gender. Natirasha, regardless of my case's solidity, never had anything to do with my confusion. May we move on?

[StrangerCoug]

FOS based on meta... nice. i just want him to explain how he knows BSW is a guy, since its obviously an alt. account.

I already explained what had happened at #226.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote: BlondeSoWut

, but I'm not voting Appassionata until I see what the case on him is. It doesn't look like I'm lynching EmpTyger today, but in the event of both him and me surviving Night 1, that's the first person I'm looking at.

[StrangerCoug]

Why if you feel both Emp and Nat are scum independant of each other did you never vote nat?

I thought (and still think) EmpTyger to be more suspicious than Natirasha. The latter seems to be doing quite nicely under the radar, though. In fact,

mod: Please prod Natirasha

for not posting since the 13th.

[StrangerCoug]

…Did you somehow miss the 6 itemized reasons I already gave? (3 of which, I might add, SC’s only defense against was to completely ignore and try to distract with the BSW wagon.)

I only ignored them because I had no comment. I was not attempting to distract from the BlondeSoWut wagon by doing so; in fact, I unvoted because I had stopped actively pursuing her case and her lynch isn't viable right now. It's still beyond me why you're twisting my Natirasha and BlondeSoWut cases together in whatever way you think you can when one, they're clearly unrelated, and two, I had a much better backing for the BlondeSoWut case than the Natirasha case (especially since my first decent scum tell on Natirasha, his being under the radar, came just yesterday).

[StrangerCoug]

SC:

<snip>
(especially since my first decent scum tell on Natirasha, his being under the radar, came just yesterday).

If your “first decent scum tell” was only yesterday, then how did you FoS him 3 weeks ago?

Because merely agreeing with player X's case on player Y you don't like is not a "decent scum tell" from player Y. I will FoS in lieu of a vote for suspicious behavior if I don't think a vote is warranted.

[StrangerCoug]

If you're calling staying under the radar a scumtell, then you must frequently vote for town power roles, because that's their job too. Power roles need to find the proper balance to make themselves look scummy enough to not be NK'd and towny enough to not be lynched. As it is, your "tell" sucks.

Power roles should not vanish from the thread for two weeks while posting elsewhere.

My question is: Why don't SC or xolelf have a vote on anyone yet?

What do you mean "yet" with regard to me? I had a vote on EmpTyger, then EmpTyger again, then BlondeSoWut. I explained why I pulled my BSW vote and leaving it idle.

[StrangerCoug]

alright...my computer has been fixed for the most part...at least i can post now

i read through things to see what i missed but i'm not entirely sure about anything right now. As my computer is fixed i will be getting back into the swing of the game within the next few days.
But if people could prompt me as to what you want me to give my opinion on, i would be rather grateful..thank you so much

Start with EmpTyger and his making my Natirasha and BlondeSoWut cases sound like they have to do with each other when they don't. Your opinion of Appassionata would be good too.

[StrangerCoug]

Start with EmpTyger and his making my Natirasha and BlondeSoWut cases sound like they have to do with each other when they don't. Your opinion of Appassionata would be good too.

Need I say more?

Yes. Why am I forbidden to answer xofelf's question? I don't understand why the post of mine quoted here is scummy.

[StrangerCoug]

Let's get the ball rolling and do something. I owed Appassionata a reread. Here it is:

Starts with a random vote, and then the case on me, then on BlondeSoWut. The case on me is fine, but he reduces the case on BlondeSoWut to crap. Just read this:

Emp, I really really really really want to win! Thats why Im playing! So Im trying to find out whos in the mafia. I think its App so I said that and I said why. I know I might die so incase I do, I said Yorgi could be in the mafia with App. I really am trying. I dont know wut more you want from me. I said who I think is in the mafia. I voted for him. I said why. I answered questions. Now people are voting for me. I dont get it.

You sound really stupid, and annoying.

Vote: BSW

This is

argumentum ad hominem

.

I don't know for sure if anyone is mafia.
I don't like BSW and Natarisha. Apparantly, though from what I read Nat always acts like that, though I do not understand it.
BSQ, I see no logical reason why he would be doing things the way he is now...

I don't know for sure if anyone is mafia.
I don't like BSW and Natarisha. Apparantly, though from what I read Nat always acts like that, though I do not understand it.
BSQ, I see no logical reason why he would be doing things the way he is now...

If you have no clue who's Mafia, then why the heck are you voting?

Good play ruined by a bad vote reason and not having a clue.

Vote: Appassionata.

Claim or die.

[StrangerCoug]

<snip>

I don't know for sure if anyone is mafia.
I don't like BSW and Natarisha. Apparantly, though from what I read Nat always acts like that, though I do not understand it.
BSQ, I see no logical reason why he would be doing things the way he is now...

If you have no clue who's Mafia, then why the heck are you voting?
<snip>

1) You are twisting Appassionata’s “I don’t know for sure” into “no clue”.

The difference being?

2) Since when is certainty a prerequisite for voting?

Since voting blindly became invalid. If you're not reasonably certain that someone is scum, then at least make an educated guess before you vote. Appassionata saying "I don't know for sure if anyone is mafia" implies that he is not reasonably certain of and does not have an educated guess as to scum.

[StrangerCoug]

*grumble, grumble*

Unvote: Appassionata

[StrangerCoug]

@ everyone regaurding Apass. isn't vig the claim for the scum to make? if he claims Vanilla townie, he gets lynched, so he claims a PR, yet can't really be countered since all three would have to counter in order for Apass to be lynched. so what is everyones thoughts on the claim?

Since there are three vigilantes (only one of which actually shoots), vig's the easiest power role to fake here, yes. Therefore, I would treat it identically to a Day 1 doctor claim—don't lynch the person without a good reason.

[StrangerCoug]

Why should we believe Appass just cus he says we should? If saying wut he said makes him town, wouldnt mafia say that so we think they r town?

Uh, BlondeSoWut, Appassionata said nothing along the lines of us believing him. Read please.

[StrangerCoug]

Vanilla.

[StrangerCoug]

I need to drop my hard feelings. Now.

EmpTyger, I must admit that you played a good game. It takes a good Mafioso to be suspected by numerous people as you state in #558 and make it to the end.