In post 765, Donempire wrote:
Okay i will make a case today, but datisi, before that i want you to tell me what you think about appearance's 519, and my 461?
i don't think anything about either. i don't think anything appearance listed out there is scummy. like, i feel like i've also been townreading sheep for the majority of the game and that my read was explained even less than fire's and nobody gave me any shit for it. i don't see why that's supposed to be scummy for fire.
your 461 is at least, like plausible. scum!fire keeping a tvt fight going would at least make sense as scum motivation. doesn't really convince me that that is what happened, though.
now that you bring up that post, mind explaining why your shea read progressed the way it did this game?
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
In post 767, Donempire wrote:
Legacy vote from merlyn. Can't be bothered unvoting right now
So who do you want to lim? Fire or Merlyn/Nurse?
Well... obviously fire ranks higher but merlyns slot gave me really bad vibes and her replacement isn't doing hot either. I can go either one but right now i wanna finish what i started.
UNVOTE:
Age of Empires Elo: 1500 something in DE, 1800 in HD
Formerly Dongempire
In post 768, Deltabreedy wrote:
@Datisi: How did Fire's defence of you (whilst saying also that you can speak for yourself) sit with you? Did it make you feel good/bad, uneasy/confident in their alignment?
you mean 737? doesn't really do anything for me. i don't see it as a defense, because i don't think my action there needed defending. or like, i don't think me not hammering is alignment indicative for me there, i think fire also knows it's not alignment indicative for me, thus it's something that cannot be defended because the action itself isn't bad. does that make sense i hope it does.
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
In post 765, Donempire wrote:
Okay i will make a case today, but datisi, before that i want you to tell me what you think about appearance's 519, and my 461?
i don't think anything about either. i don't think anything appearance listed out there is scummy. like, i feel like i've also been townreading sheep for the majority of the game and that my read was explained even less than fire's and nobody gave me any shit for it. i don't see why that's supposed to be scummy for fire.
You explain why you dont find his third point plausible, none for his first and second which are his strongest. Especially 330 is straight up buddying levels, and nothing for that? Why would town fire be so adamsnt about chainsawing you? If he thinks the case is bad, then he could show that by pointing out the flaws instead of regurgitating your points.
As for appearance's first point, being contrarian is easier when you're positioning yourself on a wagon because you won't face resistance from the wagoned, nor from other people who think you're jumping on a wagon for bad reasons. Build enough credibility doing that and you have a free pass to create unbased pushes, ergo 771.
In post 775, Datisi wrote:
your 461 is at least, like plausible. scum!fire keeping a tvt fight going would at least make sense as scum motivation. doesn't really convince me that that is what happened, though.
What theory do you have in mind then.
In post 775, Datisi wrote:
now that you bring up that post, mind explaining why your shea read progressed the way it did this game?
Yeah, that should be easy. Here's my "read progression" in the spoilers below. Note that i didn't give a specific reason for townreading shea.
Spoiler:
In post 122, Donempire wrote:
Honestly don't like status' and fire's back and forth at all. It feels more like a forum discussion than anything meaty. I also didn't like the e-1 vote at all. It's not a personality thing, i've seen so many games where scum put e-1 to hide behind the "joking, funny" defense. Thing is, pushing someone based on them putting someone at e-1 is also not a substantial push, so if they can make the push out to be just that, it essentially saves them the day.
In post 226, Thestatusquo wrote:
to answer their question it seems like extremely level 0 analysis that a wagon getting to e-1 would react in a certain away especially because the slot is clearly an alt with experience.
bestie it was page 9 what kinda profound analysis do you expect of me here
also my read was made in mind with appearance being an alt with some experience, if they were a complete noob i could see them freezing up under pressure but i don't think scum with experience reacts like that
I keep hearing that appearance is the alt of someone. I'd like to hear how you reached that conclusion, because everything from the way he speaks to his general manners seems like a knowledgable newbie, and if its an alt it's probably an alt of a new player. There might be something i'm not seeing.
I think experienced scum (or rather knowledgable scum) reacts exactly like Appearance does. That is, trying to deflect attention, being overly apologetic (171,173,182), trying to make out his push to be a misunderstanding, and spamming posts in such a quick succession that don't seem like scumhunting but rather panicking to being on a knife's edge. I do think an experienced scum would have handled this better, but then again i don't think he has that experience.
Why not vote here? I'm down for a Datisi wagon but I can't help but worry that 176 might apply here...
This is actually super slimy. Or at least you're completely misunderstanding me, whether thats intentional or not I don't know.
I think that it should be pretty clear that "I think x might be scum" is not "subtly framing things with words to create a narrative on someone" I am literally expressing a read here.
This is semantics, what you said in 176 can just as well apply here, it would just be not subtle. Just saying that someone is scummy without backing it up with at the very least some example posting is textbook shading, and arguing that it's not your "exact wording" does not detract from your hypocrisy.
I don't agree with anyone who has said the response seemed townie to me it seemed extremely preservationist and I don't think any of what they've done this game is helpful for finding scum.
Pretty much my thoughts as well.
In post 461, Donempire wrote:
Fire is defending datisi so blatantly that i think he's scum trying to buddy him. Fwiw i think its fire scum with delta/bingle being tvt. I can understand both their viewpoints. I also know dats' scum meta and this doesn't seem like it to me.
To be clear, i think fire's trying to point out some "gotcha" moments to both gain relatively easy towncred while also keeping the discussion between the two ongoing and potentially turn it on delta.
Roden (?) delta status should be town here. I'd honestly like if we offed fire today over appearance due to what i said about splitting scum into two factions.
I think that my status read has been fairly consistent up until post 461, which has been to scumread him constantly, so i assume you're asking about 461. And 461 is more about fire and appearance rather than shea. See, i had little time in d1 to make a case on shea, fire and push my appearance is sk therefore no lim strategy. I wanted to reduce the number of fronts i'd be fighting essentially. My read on shea hadn't actually changed, but i wanted him to be a non factor and maybe even back me up when i would push fire. If i were to antagonize him further i feared it would be harder to get a fire wagon up and running. You might think this is nonsensical, but check my previous town games where i constantly do this.
Age of Empires Elo: 1500 something in DE, 1800 in HD
Formerly Dongempire
In post 768, Deltabreedy wrote:
@Datisi: How did Fire's defence of you (whilst saying also that you can speak for yourself) sit with you? Did it make you feel good/bad, uneasy/confident in their alignment?
you mean 737? doesn't really do anything for me. i don't see it as a defense, because i don't think my action there needed defending. or like, i don't think me not hammering is alignment indicative for me there, i think fire also knows it's not alignment indicative for me, thus it's something that cannot be defended because the action itself isn't bad. does that make sense i hope it does.
No, the one from yesterday - oughtta clarified.
Refer to me as 'Delta' or 'Tom'. Cheers! |
'Black, if you're scum, I'll eat my shoe.'
Never forget
Regular V/LA Wednesday evenings and Thursday all day (UTC+1)
The amount of people referring to their own meta in this game is actually annoying me now - pointing back at meta as though it -proves- anything.
Imo pointing at your own meta and saying 'This is my [alignment] play in my mind makes any referring to meta moot, because it indicates an awareness of meta and if you're aware of it, you can play towards and away from it.
Refer to me as 'Delta' or 'Tom'. Cheers! |
'Black, if you're scum, I'll eat my shoe.'
Never forget
Regular V/LA Wednesday evenings and Thursday all day (UTC+1)
In post 778, Donempire wrote:
Yeah, that should be easy. Here's my "read progression" in the spoilers below. Note that i didn't give a specific reason for townreading shea.
Spoiler:
In post 122, Donempire wrote:
Honestly don't like status' and fire's back and forth at all. It feels more like a forum discussion than anything meaty. I also didn't like the e-1 vote at all. It's not a personality thing, i've seen so many games where scum put e-1 to hide behind the "joking, funny" defense. Thing is, pushing someone based on them putting someone at e-1 is also not a substantial push, so if they can make the push out to be just that, it essentially saves them the day.
In post 226, Thestatusquo wrote:
to answer their question it seems like extremely level 0 analysis that a wagon getting to e-1 would react in a certain away especially because the slot is clearly an alt with experience.
bestie it was page 9 what kinda profound analysis do you expect of me here
also my read was made in mind with appearance being an alt with some experience, if they were a complete noob i could see them freezing up under pressure but i don't think scum with experience reacts like that
I keep hearing that appearance is the alt of someone. I'd like to hear how you reached that conclusion, because everything from the way he speaks to his general manners seems like a knowledgable newbie, and if its an alt it's probably an alt of a new player. There might be something i'm not seeing.
I think experienced scum (or rather knowledgable scum) reacts exactly like Appearance does. That is, trying to deflect attention, being overly apologetic (171,173,182), trying to make out his push to be a misunderstanding, and spamming posts in such a quick succession that don't seem like scumhunting but rather panicking to being on a knife's edge. I do think an experienced scum would have handled this better, but then again i don't think he has that experience.
Why not vote here? I'm down for a Datisi wagon but I can't help but worry that 176 might apply here...
This is actually super slimy. Or at least you're completely misunderstanding me, whether thats intentional or not I don't know.
I think that it should be pretty clear that "I think x might be scum" is not "subtly framing things with words to create a narrative on someone" I am literally expressing a read here.
This is semantics, what you said in 176 can just as well apply here, it would just be not subtle. Just saying that someone is scummy without backing it up with at the very least some example posting is textbook shading, and arguing that it's not your "exact wording" does not detract from your hypocrisy.
I don't agree with anyone who has said the response seemed townie to me it seemed extremely preservationist and I don't think any of what they've done this game is helpful for finding scum.
Pretty much my thoughts as well.
In post 461, Donempire wrote:
Fire is defending datisi so blatantly that i think he's scum trying to buddy him. Fwiw i think its fire scum with delta/bingle being tvt. I can understand both their viewpoints. I also know dats' scum meta and this doesn't seem like it to me.
To be clear, i think fire's trying to point out some "gotcha" moments to both gain relatively easy towncred while also keeping the discussion between the two ongoing and potentially turn it on delta.
Roden (?) delta status should be town here. I'd honestly like if we offed fire today over appearance due to what i said about splitting scum into two factions.
I think that my status read has been fairly consistent up until post 461, which has been to scumread him constantly, so i assume you're asking about 461. And 461 is more about fire and appearance rather than shea. See, i had little time in d1 to make a case on shea, fire and push my appearance is sk therefore no lim strategy. I wanted to reduce the number of fronts i'd be fighting essentially. My read on shea hadn't actually changed, but i wanted him to be a non factor and maybe even back me up when i would push fire. If i were to antagonize him further i feared it would be harder to get a fire wagon up and running. You might think this is nonsensical, but check my previous town games where i constantly do this.
In post 780, Deltabreedy wrote:
The amount of people referring to their own meta in this game is actually annoying me now - pointing back at meta as though it -proves- anything.
Imo pointing at your own meta and saying 'This is my [alignment] play in my mind makes any referring to meta moot, because it indicates an awareness of meta and if you're aware of it, you can play towards and away from it.
Yeah i find it annoying as well. Thing is i had to point that out here because a) dats knows my meta, andb) my point makes no sense without knowing how i play.
Age of Empires Elo: 1500 something in DE, 1800 in HD
Formerly Dongempire
The thing with Don that makes me not want to push them is their stance in response to Fire and I day one. It'd be so easy for scum to either let the argument happen or to pile in themselves, but they actually supported the more widely contrarian side and I agree with their conclusions on Fire.
That said, their end of D1 and D2 so far feels real iffy.
Is there a world in which Fire is Shea's partner, with Don as the SK?
Refer to me as 'Delta' or 'Tom'. Cheers! |
'Black, if you're scum, I'll eat my shoe.'
Never forget
Regular V/LA Wednesday evenings and Thursday all day (UTC+1)
In post 778, Donempire wrote:
You explain why you dont find his third point plausible, none for his first and second which are his strongest. Especially 330 is straight up buddying levels, and nothing for that? Why would town fire be so adamsnt about chainsawing you? If he thinks the case is bad, then he could show that by pointing out the flaws instead of regurgitating your points.
this is ignoring the context of the fact that 330 is literally me pointing out the flaws in the case
here is the exact quote that i am refuting:
In post 328, Deltabreedy wrote:
All you've done over the last page and a half is attempt to discredit rather than attempt to explain where it's wrong.
You've done this by feigning outrage, by appealing to the playerbase, insinuating that my line of reasoning comes from a position of attacking your character and you've failed to actually engage with anything that I said outside of the vote on you.
how exactly do you expect me to point out the flaws in this case except by quoting the posts that prove this is a misrepresentation? im not regurgitating datisi's points and i don't think you actually read the back and forth very closely if you think that's the case. my argument didn't have anything to do with datisi's points. it was that delta was misrepresenting and pushing a flawed case
In post 780, Deltabreedy wrote:
The amount of people referring to their own meta in this game is actually annoying me now - pointing back at meta as though it -proves- anything.
Imo pointing at your own meta and saying 'This is my [alignment] play in my mind makes any referring to meta moot, because it indicates an awareness of meta and if you're aware of it, you can play towards and away from it.
Yeah i find it annoying as well. Thing is i had to point that out here because a) dats knows my meta, andb) my point makes no sense without knowing how i play.
I mean, I'm still aggrieved that you didn't put across a fire case and just accepted the Appearance lim in the end. Why did you sit back and relax over contributing your fire case?
Refer to me as 'Delta' or 'Tom'. Cheers! |
'Black, if you're scum, I'll eat my shoe.'
Never forget
Regular V/LA Wednesday evenings and Thursday all day (UTC+1)
In post 778, Donempire wrote:
I think that my status read has been fairly consistent up until post 461, which has been to scumread him constantly, so i assume you're asking about 461. And 461 is more about fire and appearance rather than shea. See, i had little time in d1 to make a case on shea, fire and push my appearance is sk therefore no lim strategy. I wanted to reduce the number of fronts i'd be fighting essentially. My read on shea hadn't actually changed, but i wanted him to be a non factor and maybe even back me up when i would push fire. If i were to antagonize him further i feared it would be harder to get a fire wagon up and running. You might think this is nonsensical, but check my previous town games where i constantly do this.
in 700 you use 461 to claim that you were townreading shea and therefore you wouldn't have shot him lmao
In post 778, Donempire wrote:
You explain why you dont find his third point plausible, none for his first and second which are his strongest. Especially 330 is straight up buddying levels, and nothing for that? Why would town fire be so adamsnt about chainsawing you? If he thinks the case is bad, then he could show that by pointing out the flaws instead of regurgitating your points.
this is ignoring the context of the fact that 330 is literally me pointing out the flaws in the case
here is the exact quote that i am refuting:
In post 328, Deltabreedy wrote:
All you've done over the last page and a half is attempt to discredit rather than attempt to explain where it's wrong.
You've done this by feigning outrage, by appealing to the playerbase, insinuating that my line of reasoning comes from a position of attacking your character and you've failed to actually engage with anything that I said outside of the vote on you.
how exactly do you expect me to point out the flaws in this case except by quoting the posts that prove this is a misrepresentation? im not regurgitating datisi's points and i don't think you actually read the back and forth very closely if you think that's the case. my argument didn't have anything to do with datisi's points. it was that delta was misrepresenting and pushing a flawed case
In post 778, Donempire wrote:
I think that my status read has been fairly consistent up until post 461, which has been to scumread him constantly, so i assume you're asking about 461. And 461 is more about fire and appearance rather than shea. See, i had little time in d1 to make a case on shea, fire and push my appearance is sk therefore no lim strategy. I wanted to reduce the number of fronts i'd be fighting essentially. My read on shea hadn't actually changed, but i wanted him to be a non factor and maybe even back me up when i would push fire. If i were to antagonize him further i feared it would be harder to get a fire wagon up and running. You might think this is nonsensical, but check my previous town games where i constantly do this.
in 700 you use 461 to claim that you were townreading shea and therefore you wouldn't have shot him lmao
I'm keen on seeing the response to this.
Refer to me as 'Delta' or 'Tom'. Cheers! |
'Black, if you're scum, I'll eat my shoe.'
Never forget
Regular V/LA Wednesday evenings and Thursday all day (UTC+1)
In post 780, Deltabreedy wrote:
The amount of people referring to their own meta in this game is actually annoying me now - pointing back at meta as though it -proves- anything.
Imo pointing at your own meta and saying 'This is my [alignment] play in my mind makes any referring to meta moot, because it indicates an awareness of meta and if you're aware of it, you can play towards and away from it.
Yeah i find it annoying as well. Thing is i had to point that out here because a) dats knows my meta, andb) my point makes no sense without knowing how i play.
I mean, I'm still aggrieved that you didn't put across a fire case and just accepted the Appearance lim in the end. Why did you sit back and relax over contributing your fire case?
I realize how it looks in game, but i was busy irl with a lot of things. I simply couldn't afford the time. I'm really trying hard.
Age of Empires Elo: 1500 something in DE, 1800 in HD
Formerly Dongempire
You've had plenty of time for retorts, for engaging with Merlyn, engaging with me, engaging with fire - we're still waiting. Twice you've committed to either a case, or a 'something' and twice now we're left wanting.
Ninja'd:
Nurse you're yet to explain either your reads on either fire or I. Where are we now, post #65?
Are you even reading all of D2 as a minimum?
Refer to me as 'Delta' or 'Tom'. Cheers! |
'Black, if you're scum, I'll eat my shoe.'
Never forget
Regular V/LA Wednesday evenings and Thursday all day (UTC+1)
In post 780, Deltabreedy wrote:
The amount of people referring to their own meta in this game is actually annoying me now - pointing back at meta as though it -proves- anything.
Imo pointing at your own meta and saying 'This is my [alignment] play in my mind makes any referring to meta moot, because it indicates an awareness of meta and if you're aware of it, you can play towards and away from it.
In post 781, Deltabreedy wrote:
Shea used self-referential meta in an attempt to prove townhood - for me self-referential meta is a scumtell
Ok you might be town.
I was kinda hoping no one would say any of that out loud but, yeah self-meta is scummy in this set up. Every single player can legitimately scum hunt and they don't have to worry about naming it look genuine, since it
should
be genuine. Pointing out how much you're within your town meta and how you're totally scum hunting just sounds like a desperate justification to stick around in the game.
In general Don has just been focused on sounding townie and saying the right thing.
