Mini #704: Hunchback of Notre Dame, Game Over

[CarnCarn]

Caboose, can you repeat your (non-existant) case against me?

[ThAdmiral]

admiral: so what you've established is that you think i'm a bad player. how does knowing that i was not in fact group scum in that game, but more or less the equivalent of the town vigilante, strike you?

i'm pretty confused how a "history of bad play/logic being continued in this game" makes me scum when it didn't make me scum last time.

and ok, so you disagree with my reasons for thinking caboose and cwr could be scum together, but you conveniently left out all the reasons i listed for thinking caboose is scum irregardless of cwr.

Ok this is actually a fair point (although you

were

technically self in that game...). Bad play does not equal scum.

unvote

On the caboose thing: well two of the 5 points against him are based on the scum pair thing, and a couple of the others revolve around the fact that he is/was a lurker. It's not a

bad

case, but I don't think I will follow it.

[Mizzy]

I think that scumpairing analysis on day one is completely WIFOM and no case should be using it. I can't take that shit seriously. I mean, what info are we going off of to even say those things? You can draw conclusions til the cows come home and still the only way to verify them is to kill both people in the pairing. Not a great way to play, at least on day 1.

[Axelrod]

I still have to do a thing up on thAdmiral. He's really doing a lot of "vote/quick unvote" at the first sign of a defense. And general wishy-washyness.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

@Mizzy:

I am beginning to think my vote should be elsewhere now.

Unvote

for the moment while I wait to see responses.

That was ten days ago. Found that "elsewhere" spot for your vote yet?

@CarnCarn: I have pending questions for you on Post 273

@roflcopter: In light of your recent statements about Caboose:

"likelihood that caboose is scum with clockwork rising dramatically"
"meteoric rise in the probability of caboose being scum"
"++scum points"

Where is Caboose on your "scumlist" currently?

[Mizzy]

Machiavellian-Mafia:

I'm waitching rofl and Axelrod at the moment but I haven't made any concrete determinations, yet...though if I were forced to pick someone, anyone, I'd pick rofl for his #285. I don't like when things are labeled as facts that are strewn with opinion.

[CarnCarn]

Sorry for double post, just noticed this:

Chances of scum being on my wagon... quite high.

So who is more likely to be scum to you? Is it CR, who is your current vote, or is it one or both of {Caboose, Destrutor}, who are on your current wagon? If it's the former, does it mean you consider CR's chance to be scum to be very high (i.e. higher than "quite high")? If it's the latter, why did you not switch your vote?

Good questions and points here. At first, I thought Caboose's vote on me for FoSing might have been to just get a reaction, but he is serious about keeping his vote on me. Destructor's "me too" vote is also scummy, especially since he seems to be defending CR. Another person trying to derail a scumbuddy's wagon, perhaps. The only way destructor and Caboose would be scum (IMO) is if they were trying to protect CR-scum. Otherwise, they could be VERY opportunistic about destroying town-CR.
So, to answer your question, I find both Caboose and destructor to be scummy, but I also think that that is dependent upon CR being scum. So, I'm keeping my CR vote, as I think his lynch will give the most information about peoples' attacks and defenses.

[CarnCarn]

You are telling me that CarnCarn's response to my question, see 292, is not in some way of being suspicious because I didn't join the wagon?

I don't see any deeper meaning there. Are you telling me that these players haven't been suspicious of me because I didn't jump onto that wagon? Because it certainly seems like that to me.

I will only answer for myself. My comment was more than just that you are scum for not joining the Ramus wagon, but that you are scum because you didn't join it

for an invalid reason

.

[ClockworkRuse]

admiral: so what you've established is that you think i'm a bad player. how does knowing that i was not in fact group scum in that game, but more or less the equivalent of the town vigilante, strike you?

i'm pretty confused how a "history of bad play/logic being continued in this game" makes me scum when it didn't make me scum last time.

and ok, so you disagree with my reasons for thinking caboose and cwr could be scum together, but you conveniently left out all the reasons i listed for thinking caboose is scum irregardless of cwr.

This is a good point.

For the record, I was looking at the game to hopefully build a little bit of a meta on you. That didn't work out due to the nature of the game.

You are telling me that CarnCarn's response to my question, see 292, is not in some way of being suspicious because I didn't join the wagon?

I don't see any deeper meaning there. Are you telling me that these players haven't been suspicious of me because I didn't jump onto that wagon? Because it certainly seems like that to me.

I will only answer for myself. My comment was more than just that you are scum for not joining the Ramus wagon, but that you are scum because you didn't join it

for an invalid reason

.

The reason wasn't invaild. You just didn't like it.

With MM, you, and... I believe it was Mizzy, on his wagon, I felt like the amount of pressure being applied was going to suffice against him. You had been asking him good questions and I felt like it would benefit the town if we kept applying pressure all around.

And you are willing to lynch me just to get information? So when I turn up town, what exactly are you going to learn? We've already heard your assumptions about if I flip scum if I get lynched, but what of the other way around?

In other words; How does an information lynch help the town?

[CarnCarn]

You are telling me that CarnCarn's response to my question, see 292, is not in some way of being suspicious because I didn't join the wagon?

I don't see any deeper meaning there. Are you telling me that these players haven't been suspicious of me because I didn't jump onto that wagon? Because it certainly seems like that to me.

I will only answer for myself. My comment was more than just that you are scum for not joining the Ramus wagon, but that you are scum because you didn't join it

for an invalid reason

.

The reason wasn't invaild. You just didn't like it.

With MM, you, and... I believe it was Mizzy, on his wagon, I felt like the amount of pressure being applied was going to suffice against him. You had been asking him good questions and I felt like it would benefit the town if we kept applying pressure all around.

And you are willing to lynch me just to get information? So when I turn up town, what exactly are you going to learn? We've already heard your assumptions about if I flip scum if I get lynched, but what of the other way around?

In other words; How does an information lynch help the town?

It was clearly invalid because Ramus already said he wasn't feeling any pressure to answer the questions put forth to him. Your reason for not voting was because there was adequate pressure, when it was obviously not the case. Why do you keep avoiding this?

And more "strawman" questions towards the end of your post. I've already answered them, but will reiterate here:
I am

not

supporting your lynch just to get information. I've explained that I think you are scum and said why. In addition, the actions taken by Caboose and destructor, for example, will have a better context if we know your alignment.
And for the case where you are town, I already said what I think must happen. Your wagoners, including me, will be under a lot of scrutiny. The chances of your lynch taking place with only townies voting is unlikely (unless it is a 4 vote deadline lynch, which I prefer not to happen; I will say right now that I highly prefer a majority lynch

before

deadline).

[ClockworkRuse]

You are telling me that CarnCarn's response to my question, see 292, is not in some way of being suspicious because I didn't join the wagon?

I don't see any deeper meaning there. Are you telling me that these players haven't been suspicious of me because I didn't jump onto that wagon? Because it certainly seems like that to me.

I will only answer for myself. My comment was more than just that you are scum for not joining the Ramus wagon, but that you are scum because you didn't join it

for an invalid reason

.

The reason wasn't invaild. You just didn't like it.

With MM, you, and... I believe it was Mizzy, on his wagon, I felt like the amount of pressure being applied was going to suffice against him. You had been asking him good questions and I felt like it would benefit the town if we kept applying pressure all around.

And you are willing to lynch me just to get information? So when I turn up town, what exactly are you going to learn? We've already heard your assumptions about if I flip scum if I get lynched, but what of the other way around?

In other words; How does an information lynch help the town?

It was clearly invalid because Ramus already said he wasn't feeling any pressure to answer the questions put forth to him. Your reason for not voting was because there was adequate pressure, when it was obviously not the case. Why do you keep avoiding this?

And more "strawman" questions towards the end of your post. I've already answered them, but will reiterate here:
I am

not

supporting your lynch just to get information. I've explained that I think you are scum and said why. In addition, the actions taken by Caboose and destructor, for example, will have a better context if we know your alignment.
And for the case where you are town, I already said what I think must happen. Your wagoners, including me, will be under a lot of scrutiny. The chances of your lynch taking place with only townies voting is unlikely (unless it is a 4 vote deadline lynch, which I prefer not to happen; I will say right now that I highly prefer a majority lynch

before

deadline).

I was addressing one point to your case, so don't call them "strawmen" just because I don't ask questions about every single point. I wanted to see your answer.

And I understand what you feel. I felt like the pressure was adequate despite what he said. The fact is, I didn't find him more scummy than Ort. So I am scum because of that?

"It's the way you did it." - Well, that is how you are reading into it. I did find Ramus scummy. Excuse me for not being clear enough when I said it, but if I felt that Ramus was scummier than Ort at that point, I would have voted him.

[destructor]

Hi, letting you all know I'm going to have limited access until Dec 14.

I will get another post in before the weekend is over. I feel like I'm kind of losing touch in this game, so if anyone has anything specific they'd like me to comment on or any questions, they're welcome too.

[roflcopter]

@roflcopter: In light of your recent statements about Caboose:

"likelihood that caboose is scum with clockwork rising dramatically"
"meteoric rise in the probability of caboose being scum"
"++scum points"

Where is Caboose on your "scumlist" currently?

second, behind clockworkruse

[Battousai]

Answer them again please, or give me a post number to where you explain how being emotional is a reason to vote. C) Where did you get counterproductive, I said contradiction. Also you said a vote on someone is better than a vote on no one. But later in the day you unvoted and didn't place another vote.

I can't go back and re-read right now, sorry. You'll have to go look on your own.

The reason I asked you to give a post number or explain again because I didn't find anywhere where you gave a reason on why being emotional is reason to vote.

You just made an accusation, as did CR, and didn't post where he took someone else's opinion and applied it as his own.

My point was that he posted in 138 and then later destructor asked him who else he was suspicious of, which I still can't find an answer to. Then he got into a tussle with CWR and the OMGUS fiasco, and then FoSes me and votes destructor in 163. No case. He just sat around, dodged questions, argued and then made shit votes/FoSes (possibly in an attempt to look productive.)

So you are saying he was lazy because he didn't scumhunt while being attacked. I've been in a game before (you moded) where someone was being attacked, but didn't scumhunt and at the end, were town IIRC. (The game was your Troy meet Helen)

Then why didn't you answer it?

Because at first I didn't think it was addressed to everyone, and then I had no idea what Whoever-the-hell's Gambit was and I still don't. How can I answer when I don't know what it is and why should I answer when I think it's not relevant and a possible distraction? Plus, I was very strapped for time.

Yet you keep wanting Ort to answer this and you get after Ort for not answering.

[Axelrod]

Okay, while we have a little time, here's what I got on thAdmiral:

What stuck out at first, was the complete lack of talking about anyone else. All his early posts are general/theory type remarks, and he rather pointedly doesn't attack anyone or vote for anyone (other than random 1st vote).

The first post where he expresses an opinion about anyone is Here. And it's a pretty wishy-washy opinion - "ortolan was 'a bit' defense, but that just seems like his natural play," "I don't think Battousi is scum, but it doesn't appear he's really scum-hunting" and "I don't want to pick between either of bat/CR."

Well, go find someone to pick then, how about that? Instead of sitting back and waiting to see who the rest of the players offer up to you on a silver platter?

Ultimately he will Vote: ortolan close to the deadline, even though still expressing doubts about same.

It's somewhat notable to me that thAdmiral hasn't really

said

anything about CR up to this point. Hasn't defended him, hasn't criticized those voting for him, nothing. Despite that CR's the largest wagon of the game. All he's said is that he hoped he didn't have to pick between bat/CR because he didn't think either were scum.

He immediately unvotes Ort in his next post, and jumps to the Caboose lurker wagon. This is now his "favorite" lynch, though, again he hasn't said anything about Caboose up to this point. One must assume that he's basing this vote entirely on MM's vote from post #195.

This vote too is immedaitely unvoted in thAdmiral's next post after Caboose makes a post, and he has been questioned for calling Caboose his "favorite" lynch. Says he hopes we could find a better target than a lurker. Still does not appear to be making any efforts to find said target himself, however.

The most aggressive post he has made in the game comes
Here when he criticizes CarnCarn for setting up what he calls a binary lynch (i.e. saying something like, if X flips town then we go after Y, or vice-versa). Doesn't vote for Carn here.

It is interesting to me that he

continues

to question those voting for CR, without ever actually saying anything about CR himself. He says it seems to him the people voting CR are voting him for his "play" choices, rather than his being scummy, and he asks for clarification. Personally, I would think that if you did NOT find CR to be scummy or a good lynch target, and he was so close to a lynch approaching a deadline, you'd say more about it (as town). You'd be more critical of those voting him, perhaps.

He then votes roflcopter because of what he perceives as his "tunneling" on CR, and poor logic in making assumptions about who would be scum-buddies with CR before we know CR's alignment. He also makes a bizarre point about rofl's play in another game, where rofl was NOT mafia, but thAdmiral is comparing his play in that game to his play in this game, and making some kind of point which I don't even understand. Sounds like he's just saying that rofl has a history of being wrong about people, but still acting certain even when he's wrong.

Again, this vote is quickly unvoted in thAdmiral's last post. Why? Because rofl has apparently made a "fair" point that "bad play does not = scum." It is as if he realized his own earlier point did not make any sense.

He still doesn't pick anyone to go after or call anyone scummy-looking. What he says now is that the case against Caboose is not a

bad

case, but that he won't be following it. (because....it's not good enough?)

He's been extremely non-committal for the entire game. He's avoided discussing other players. Every vote he has cast has been quickly unvoted. It very much looks like scum coasting, trying to stay below everyone's radar by not rendering any strong opinions.

What about it Admiral? Who looks scummy to you

right now

(and why.)

[petroleumjelly]

Day One: Vote Count #14

5 ClockworkRuse (Natirasha, ortolan, Axelrod, CarnCarn, roflcopter)
2 CarnCarn (Caboose, destructor)
1 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia)
1 Mizzy (Battousai)
1 roflcopter (ClockworkRuse)

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch, and

4

to lynch at deadline. Currently no deadline.

Not Voting – 2 – Mizzy, ThAdmiral

Natirasha replaces urielzyx, effective immediately. A deadline of three days will be implemented once Natirasha has had time to catch up with the game.

[Natirasha]

Y hallo thar. I'll reread later--Team Fortress 2 more important now.

[Battousai]

Axel: Concerning ThAdmiral- the reason I have him as leaning scum is because I felt he was not really contributing much plus seemed to distance himself from any wagon that was forming (it continued into the Caboose it seems from your analysis)

[Mizzy]

The reason I asked you to give a post number or explain again because I didn't find anywhere where you gave a reason on why being emotional is reason to vote.

One should never vote or otherwise act on emotion. It clouds one's vision and is generally an anti-town way to do things. This is why OMGUS votes are scummy; because they are based off emotion and not facts or a case.

So you are saying he was lazy because he didn't scumhunt while being attacked. I've been in a game before (you moded) where someone was being attacked, but didn't scumhunt and at the end, were town IIRC. (The game was your Troy meet Helen)

No, that is not what I am saying. I'm saying that he was dodging questions, not defending himself, and made some scummy plays on top of that.

Yet you keep wanting Ort to answer this and you get after Ort for not answering.

Why are you speaking in the present tense for all this? These things are all in the past. And yes, I wanted him to answer it because the way the post was worded, it was directed only towards him, and he was dodging it. By the time I realized it wasn't aimed only at him, things had begun to move on and I don't think that everyone answered it anyway.

[ThAdmiral]

@ axelrod: I can see where you are coming from as I realize in this game I have been jumping around with my suspicions a lot and have not taken many strong stances, but first of all I want to clear up a few places where you have misquoted me or misrepresented me.

The first post where he expresses an opinion about anyone is Here. And it's a pretty wishy-washy opinion - "ortolan was 'a bit' defense, but that just seems like his natural play,"

"I don't think Battousi is scum, but it doesn't appear he's really scum-hunting"

and "I don't want to pick between either of bat/CR."

My actual quote is:

I doubt battouasi is scum. Even though I don't think it's justified he is "scum hunting", which is pro town.

I.e. i thought he

was

scum hunting.

It's somewhat notable to me that thAdmiral hasn't really

said

anything about CR up to this point.

I thought that I had made it pretty clear that I was against a clockwork lynch, but (looking over my posts) I realize I haven't said this explicitly, so: I am against a clockwork lynch.

He immediately unvotes Ort in his next post, and jumps to the Caboose lurker wagon. This is now his "favorite" lynch, though, again he hasn't said anything about Caboose up to this point. One must assume that he's basing this vote entirely on MM's vote from post #195.

I said it was my "favored" lynch, i.e. in a situation where I wasn't sure who I thought was scummy it was the lesser of many evils. It was based on mm's post that showed that caboose was posting in other games but not this one.

It is interesting to me that he

continues

to question those voting for CR, without ever actually saying anything about CR himself.

To set the record straight I am fairly suspicious of those on the cr wagon, and my vote will most likely end up on one of them.

Again, this vote is quickly unvoted in thAdmiral's last post. Why? Because rofl has apparently made a "fair" point that "bad play does not = scum." It is as if he realized his own earlier point did not make any sense.

To be honest this is true...
I still believe his bad play/logic is anti-town to a degree, however it does not mean he is scum.

What about it Admiral? Who looks scummy to you

right now

(and why.)

Now before I answer this I will explain why my play may have seemed "non-committal" etc.
Basically I believe that whoever is scum in this game is playing very well. I don't think I've been able to get a strong lead on anyone, however I feel like I have been able to say with relative certainty that some people are not scum. Due to this there are a few people I don't want to vote for, and everyone else is up in the air.

However as I stated earlier my suspicions lie mostly with those still on the cr wagon.

[Natirasha]

Alright, from my (very very) short reread, heres what I think.

The case against CWR I disagree with. Not sure why, but I think that there is all 3 scum on this wagon.

Unvote

.

roflcopter is his usual useless self.

Axelrod, is quite logical and pro-town.

Of everyone, though, the person that strikes me as the most scummy, though, is Mizzy. I'm unsure why, except a deep gut feeling, but

Vote: Mizzy

.

Overall...
Townie: Axelrod-MM
Pro-Town: CWR, CarnCarn, Battousai
Neutral: destructor, ortolan
Pro-Scum: roflcopter, Caboose
Scum: Mizzy, Thadmiral

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

Hi, letting you all know I'm going to have limited access until Dec 14.

I will get another post in before the weekend is over. I feel like I'm kind of losing touch in this game, so if anyone has anything specific they'd like me to comment on or any questions, they're welcome too.

How do you feel your current vote on CarnCarn? None of the reasons you listed were particularly strong IMO: his FOS on rofl, his IGMEOY on Caboose, and his jump away from CR.

[roflcopter]

roflcopter is his usual useless self.

Axelrod, is quite logical and pro-town.

that seems like an odd stance to take, considering axel and i have expressed very similar opinions and concerns thus far

[CarnCarn]

roflcopter is his usual useless self.

Axelrod, is quite logical and pro-town.

that seems like an odd stance to take, considering axel and i have expressed very similar opinions and concerns thus far

I also find that putting both you and Caboose in the pro-scum group is strange to say the least, especially without any explanation.

[roflcopter]

yeah, well i can safely say that nat is a hypocrite when he calls anyone useless