Mini 2308 | Blood over Utopia | Utopia fell.

[Deal With The Devil]

I can be convinced of the merits of Sacrifice, but I don't think Snivy was acting in good faith when I gave them blowback and I did not see town in the responses they gave to me.

-Drew

Pre Edit: I was responding to you, Marci, and meow. You were both kinda asking variations of the same thing.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

based on this interaction, can you elaborate? i think the suggestion from him - to use the vig as a double elimination - would be a fairly reasonable way to use the sacrifice ability, and would counteract the issue you brought up (that mafia would control the council). it seems like a fairly normal discussion on mechanics, so i'm not sure what your thought process is here

Not really on topic but isn't double day like really low EV

[camelCasedSnivy]

i was trying to find a way to make sacrifice work, if not now then later so eh

[camelCasedSnivy]

My main issue is that when explaining that, especially when reads are just starting to develop, it is much easier on D1 than compared to later in the game for scum to sneak into the council.....they still wanted to push it for D1. Ya they aren't screaming from the mountain tops that is must go through, but they still want it to happen.

And again, it was at that point I was like the simplest explanation is that they are scum.

They even tried to placate my initial blow back on it, not arguing the merits of if it is a good idea or not, just trying to placate my concerns to make sure I will come around and agree to it.

Manipulative is not generally a town trait.

-Drew

also i proposed the psuedo-vote idea for it where we all decide who is gonna get vigged

[SirCakez]

i like meowmeow's entrance, first posts I've read this game that really made me feel town

could you elaborate on what made you townread me?

I can follow the town thought processes that lead you to where you got, I don't think it's faked

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Hi Snivy, do you have any reads so far?

[camelCasedSnivy]

Hi Snivy, do you have any reads so far?

probably

im sitting in a car rn so when i get home ill make some

[SirCakez]

I think Sacrifice is useful but would put it in same bucket as assassination - not useful today

[camelCasedSnivy]

if you want any right now, im still on the fence about penguin's reasoning for voting merlyn over a misunderstanding but wasnt clear if that was rvs

[meowmeow]

i'd also like to ask, given your merlyn push, do you think advocating for no elim is equivalent to a mechanical disagreement on something like the development abilities? additionally, do you think RCE was actually advocating for a no elim in those posts?

RC wasn't actually advocating for a no lim though? I think he wanted to use Sacrifice in place of the regular elimination, which is along the lines of project discussion. I think she kind of went "he's asking for no lim and that's odd," because typically asking for no lim is anti town, but I'm not sure why she thought that was scummy in this case exactly

and I guess part of the answer is that Merlyn just doesn't care as much about the other project mech stuff that was happening today, which is fair. But it seemed like jumping on RCE for saying "no lim" when that wasn't really happening

i agree rce wasn't actually advocating for a no lim, he was just using it rhetorically to question people's opposition to using the sacrifice. i think merlyn misunderstood what he was trying to say, and her push on him definitely wasn't good. but like, based on merlyn's interpretation of that post, that it was advocating for a no lim, i don't think it's strange for her to vote him for it, or to prioritise it over some other kind of mechanical disagreement. so when you're asking things like "why is she voting rce for a mechanical disagreement" and not addressing the core issue of merlyn's interpretation of that post, it kind of feels like you're more interested in pushing merlyn than sorting her. it's not like pushing merlyn for that post is inherently scummy, but i don't see why you go about it in this way that doesn't really address the elephant in the room that needs to be resolved. is there anything i'm misunderstanding about your side of the interaction?

[meowmeow]

based on this interaction, can you elaborate? i think the suggestion from him - to use the vig as a double elimination - would be a fairly reasonable way to use the sacrifice ability, and would counteract the issue you brought up (that mafia would control the council). it seems like a fairly normal discussion on mechanics, so i'm not sure what your thought process is here

Not really on topic but isn't double day like really low EV

i don't think so? i mean, i don't know about the double day setups you might be referring to, but i think the core mechanic of "town gets 2 kills for every mafia kill" is pretty favourable to the town, although i'm not like an expert in open games so you might be right and if the game is mountainous otherwise i guess that might be lower ev than you would expect

i guess it is pretty off topic though!

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i agree rce wasn't actually advocating for a no lim, he was just using it rhetorically to question people's opposition to using the sacrifice. i think merlyn misunderstood what he was trying to say, and her push on him definitely wasn't good. but like, based on merlyn's interpretation of that post, that it was advocating for a no lim, i don't think it's strange for her to vote him for it, or to prioritise it over some other kind of mechanical disagreement. so when you're asking things like "why is she voting rce for a mechanical disagreement" and not addressing the core issue of merlyn's interpretation of that post, it kind of feels like you're more interested in pushing merlyn than sorting her. it's not like pushing merlyn for that post is inherently scummy, but i don't see why you go about it in this way that doesn't really address the elephant in the room that needs to be resolved. is there anything i'm misunderstanding about your side of the interaction?

What do you think Merlyn misunderstood? Based on 181, it seems like she understood fine?

[meowmeow]

i agree rce wasn't actually advocating for a no lim, he was just using it rhetorically to question people's opposition to using the sacrifice. i think merlyn misunderstood what he was trying to say, and her push on him definitely wasn't good. but like, based on merlyn's interpretation of that post, that it was advocating for a no lim, i don't think it's strange for her to vote him for it, or to prioritise it over some other kind of mechanical disagreement. so when you're asking things like "why is she voting rce for a mechanical disagreement" and not addressing the core issue of merlyn's interpretation of that post, it kind of feels like you're more interested in pushing merlyn than sorting her. it's not like pushing merlyn for that post is inherently scummy, but i don't see why you go about it in this way that doesn't really address the elephant in the room that needs to be resolved. is there anything i'm misunderstanding about your side of the interaction?

What do you think Merlyn misunderstood? Based on 181, it seems like she understood fine?

i don't think she understands that rce is trying to point out that arguments against using the sacrifice apply just as well as arguments against using our elimination, except the sacrifice has perks on top of that. as far as i can tell, he isn't sincerely advocating for a no elimination here, but rhetorically trying to point out that arguments against using the sacrifice don't hold water. i think merlyn saw it as a proposal to use the no elimination over the sacrifice, based on 181 saying "even if we use the sacrifice we can use the lim too" and later accusing rce of wanting to no lim and saying she doesn't think town would do that. if she didn't misunderstand, i don't see why she would accuse him of that; it doesn't seem like a very effective scum tactic. and if we were to argue on the premise that rce

was

proposing that as a mechanical plan, i again don't really see why it would be so strange for someone to be more suspicious of that than disagreements over the development projects or whatever.

it's possible i'm actually the one misunderstanding here, in which case i am very sorry!

[RCEnigma]

When I was responding to Marci it was specifically about framing it as an extra kill when using it lieu of the day lim doesn’t cull numbers it’s just an alternative to it. The numbers don’t change.

I didn’t get Merlyn taking that as scummy since they never explained how it would be, in the context of using one over the other and not both.


Meow made me think maybe I was being anti town when they said not using the budget would fund scum for a second though.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Ok, I think I read correctly. Initially I didn't get the impression that RCE was using it was a rhetorical device, but was instead saying that you can execute someone regularly or execute someone via Sacrifice to similar effect except Sacrifice gives you cash, which I think he is affirming above

I guess my qualm with 181 is - why is this something worth voting over when at least one person was going to be yeeted out via Sacrifice anyway? Two day eliminations is quite punishing for the town (Double Day setup is 13 town vs 3 scum), but even assuming that Merlyn doesn't know that, what is the material difference between the two options? It seems like a fairly minor point of disagreement imo.

RE not an effective scum tactic, I don't think scum will always do what is most effective; sometimes they just do whatever to get by. I feel like she saw that someone was pushing no lim and decided to push them for it without really thinking about the merits of the argument

Note: fixed broken formatting

[camelCasedSnivy]

because we can use the sac to, in the worst case, kill the scummiest townie, and in the best case, find a scum

[meowmeow]

it definitely feels wrong that double day would be bad for town by ev, considering it is just 2:1 town kills vs 1:1, but i guess i don't know that for sure. do you have a link to the ev stuff?

my view is that it's perfectly normal to be dubious of someone advocating for a no elim over the alternative of eliminating while still using the sacrifice ability because it involves giving up a town kill for no reason, similarly to why we don't propose no elim in most scenarios even if a vig exists or whatever. i seem to have been wrong about the initial interaction though and i don't really have confidence this is scummy for csf anymore

UNVOTE:

for now, i'll try and find something else

[biancospino]

prodding HighFlyingDwarf

[biancospino]

Votecount 1-V

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to hammer.

flavor

Spoiler:

execution votes

Merlyn (3):

Aureal (212), Cat Scratch Fever (228), Roden (250)

Roden (2):

RCEnigma (20), PenguinPower (87)

PenguinPower (1):

camelCasedSnivy (88)

RCEnigma (1):

Merlyn (181)

camelcasedSnivy (1):

Deal With The Devil (182)

HighFlyingDwarf (1):

SirCakez (268)

Not voting (4):

Random Nurse, HighFlyingDwarf, marcistar, meowmeow (316)

projects votes

Bureau of Investigations (4):

Aureal (110), meowmeow (258), camelCasedSnivy (259), SirCakez (267)

Trading Outpost (3):

PenguinPower (86), RCEnigma (159), Roden (187)

Neighborhood Watch (1):

Merlyn (33)

Election Security (1):

Cat Scratch Fever (160)

Elected Jury (1):

marcistar (294)

Not voting (3):

Random Nurse, HighFlyingDwarf, Deal With The Devil (231)

notes

• The Deadline is due in (expired on 2023-08-08 09:00:00).
  
• Random Nurse is V/LA on Thursdays, Frydays and Saturdays.

[Merlyn]

I guess my qualm with [p]181[/p] is - why is this something worth voting over when at least one person was going to be yeeted out via Sacrifice anyway? Two day eliminations is quite punishing for the town (Double Day setup is 13 town vs 3 scum), but even assuming that Merlyn doesn't know that, what is the material difference between the two options? It seems like a fairly minor point of disagreement imo.

Some of this is greek to me. No idea if you're right or wrong, no idea if that setup applies to this game. It is a fairly minor point, I have to give you that, but like, yeah and? What is anybody going to be pushing early D1 that's not a minor point? Your push on me is over something pretty minor.

I don't even like RC's responses (or non responses) to my vote. Basically they've let two other folks do the arguing for them- when they finally addressed it, it wasn't even to me directly, but to the two folks arguing in his favor. It feels lurky to me.

My take on Devil and Marci is TvT. Devil Drew is playing the way I've grown to expect him to as town which is looking for loose strings to pull and seeing if anything unravels. I get the thought process behind the snivy vote, don't know if I agree yet or not, but the vote itself is not inherently scummy. Marci's confidence strikes me as town, that kind of posting without careful evaluation and reevaluation I see from scum a lot.

I have to think more about the Cakez thing. My first impulse it that it's overblown but I don't know- it is kind of weird to say you're keeping your random vote stage vote until...I guess it's not more random? And then voting anyway, for a lurker. It's like little pings.

[camelCasedSnivy]

its not double day its double day every other day

also the second lim doesn't happen if scum

and IF evs still arent in our favor we could just... not use the sac for the time being

[Aureal]

Can I ask people voting for Trading Post to explain what combinations they want to use which would require the extra budget? I feel like there's just been an assumption we're going to need them.

we could do
census/a development
assassination/autopsy
neighborhood watch/census

Yay, someone actually responded like I asked.

Census doesn't seem like a big priority at first, we probably want to use it mid-game. Like when there's exactly 8 people left, to keep the pools small as possible, would be perfect but we can't count on numbers working out exactly like that.
I think we actually want to use Autopsy the day after we use Assassination? I doubt we're allowed to target the same person with both- they won't be a dead person yet while people are deciding who to target!
Neighborhood Watch I feel like is most useful late game when Census would be unavailable- if it gets to ELO in particular (to make it hard for scum to coordinate quickhammers if nothing else). But I never roll scum so I might not have a great sense of how useful daytalk is for them, other opinions welcome.

[Deal With The Devil]

Can I ask people voting for Trading Post to explain what combinations they want to use which would require the extra budget? I feel like there's just been an assumption we're going to need them.

we could do
census/a development
assassination/autopsy
neighborhood watch/census

Yay, someone actually responded like I asked.

Census doesn't seem like a big priority at first, we probably want to use it mid-game. Like when there's exactly 8 people left, to keep the pools small as possible, would be perfect but we can't count on numbers working out exactly like that.
I think we actually want to use Autopsy the day after we use Assassination? I doubt we're allowed to target the same person with both- they won't be a dead person yet while people are deciding who to target!
Neighborhood Watch I feel like is most useful late game when Census would be unavailable- if it gets to ELO in particular (to make it hard for scum to coordinate quickhammers if nothing else). But I never roll scum so I might not have a great sense of how useful daytalk is for them, other opinions welcome.

When's the last time you rolled scum?

-Drew

[Aureal]

You were in the only scum game I've had since 2006. Which was multiball. Barely even counts.

[Deal With The Devil]

You were in the only scum game I've had since 2006. Which was multiball. Barely even counts.

Fire and Ice? I can't even remember it lol.

Just thought it was odd you made a point to say that you don't know how useful scum daytalk is, even if it had been ages since you were scum.