Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

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Post Post #1150 (ISO) » Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:48 pm

Post by Random Nurse »

In post 1149, biancospino wrote:
In post 1143, Random Nurse wrote: thus making it so at best they'd have to wait two Nights to commit a NK
You can actually already accomplish this by making all scum, e.g., compulsive odd-nights Visitors (with multitasking off) to allow to kill only on even nights; or using a combination of night specific/nonconsecutive to get whatever schedule you want
But I don't think they'd allow multiball in a Mini Normal with those changes alone.

I was trying to use the $$$ as a means to smooth it out to better allow multiball in Mini Normals.

Not sure how else to bring multiball back.
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Post Post #1151 (ISO) » Sat Sep 02, 2023 2:55 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

I am in favor of adding Bulwark to the Normal role list

it is a simpler variant of Shield, and Bulwark has an interesting dynamic of being able to both protect and get guilties so it really should be considered the Watcher of protective roles

I also like the idea of Thaumaturge, as a Thaumaturge becomes much stronger after someone claims a role
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Post Post #1152 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 2:41 pm

Post by T-Bone »

Sure I will unilaterally add them. I actually don't know what our process is for making roles normal.
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Post Post #1153 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:16 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

I'm not really sure either, I think these role proposals would be discussed by the NRG presumably
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Post Post #1154 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:28 pm

Post by Ircher »

In post 1152, T-Bone wrote: Sure I will unilaterally add them. I actually don't know what our process is for making roles normal.
In my experience in the NRG, implosion would bring them to the NRG for feedback, and then after a while, implosion would make a unilateral decision whether to make the role normal.
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Post Post #1155 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:54 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

Which of these wordings for Thaumaturge is best?

Each night, you may learn whether or not a player is either Town or Vanilla (but not both).
Each night, you may learn whether or not a player is exactly one of {Town, Vanilla}.

I assume the second is best, but the first might be simpler.
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Post Post #1156 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 4:39 pm

Post by T-Bone »

Great, give me a list of roles people want to consider normal and then I will unilaterally add them or not!
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Post Post #1157 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 5:14 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

Normal proposals I've found here and weren't suggested by me that I think could be Normal, and my thoughts on them:

Vain - Possibly a good idea I think? We have both Loyal and Disloyal.
Publishing - Seemingly good idea, but only works for investigative roles and might work strangely for Checkers. I feel this doesn't detract heavily from Normals, however this would necessarily cause the moderator to post information in the game thread. Also note that Publishing Informed can exist!
X-Result - The generalization of a X-Shot modifier that only depletes on a specific type of investigation result. If the greylist comes back, this would easily be on the greylist.
Gutless - Somewhat interesting, but would make Doctor interesting. This was originally suggested by creating a wiki page and saying the modifier was Normal, however.

Here is a post with some other Normal proposals, though I'm thinking Cursed isn't normal.
In post 919, DDynamo wrote:Informant Role: Targets a player to make them informed of a detail of the setup. Basically the Mailman, but the message you send is predetermined by the Moderator and unknown to the player.
Charging Modifier: A further modifier to X-Shot. Charging makes it so you get charges back for events that occur in the game, such as a Cop that gets a charge every time a Town Power role is eliminated at day.
Skimmer Role: If the Skimmer visits the same target as the Doctor, the Skimmer gets protected as well.
Famous Modifier: The existence, but not alignment, of the full role of the player is announced by the moderator at the beginning of the game.
X-Result Modifier: A role that only consumes charges if the role receives a certain result, such as a Cop that's only allowed one guilty result before the role ceases to function. That would be created in a game read as "1-Guilty Cop".
Cursed Modifier: Your role will only work on other players who are also Cursed.
Obsessive Modifier: Opposite of Roaming Modifier, if you target a player you must continue to try to target that player every night until they die, at which point you're free to change.



Thaumaturge is a role I've invented and really should see discussion before being Normalized, though I consider a Thaumaturge to be a Neapolitan variant with its checkerboarded results seeming like they would make the role interesting especially if there are role claims.
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Post Post #1158 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 5:19 pm

Post by Random Nurse »

In post 1140, Random Nurse wrote: I've got an idea for a new PR.

A Town/Scum "Sensor."

The variation I thought of only works Day 1, but I suppose could work any Day.

Basically after being eliminated, after being flipped the Mod confirms whether or not there was at least one Scum on that wagon.

A Scum Sensor probably wouldn't be that useful, but in multiball it could be.

Then again that would be OP if only Town votes...
In post 1141, Random Nurse wrote: Also, I like the idea of a Vote-Activated modifier.

For example, you, the Town Tracker, can only use your ability the following Night if you were the 1st vote on a successful elimination.

That would add a nice layer of complexity and weaken PRs further to smooth things out.

Any consideration on these?
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Post Post #1159 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 5:20 pm

Post by camelCasedSnivy »

if all town are on a wagon with a sensor that makes it too op so nah

the second one is kinda weird and i feel like theres a better way to do that
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Post Post #1160 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 5:21 pm

Post by camelCasedSnivy »

i dont really think Publishing should be Normal but other than that temporal lichs roles sound good
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Post Post #1161 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 5:23 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

In post 1158, Random Nurse wrote:Any consideration on these?
I don't think Sensor is Normal. Its reliance on wagons feels way too abNormal to me.

Vote-Activated also doesn't feel Normal to me. A reason that Supersaint isn't Normal is that it makes vote order relevant, and Vote-Activated makes vote order relevant.
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Post Post #1162 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 5:27 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

Impersonal and Procrastinating are also ideas worth considering, being the inverted version of Personal and Lazy respectively.

Oh, and I meant to say that a Gutless Doctor would be useless, not interesting.

Impersonal is a strange modifier though, as an Impersonal Roleblocker is very close to just being a Bulwark.
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Post Post #1163 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 5:37 pm

Post by Random Nurse »

Uh huh.

Alright.
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Post Post #1164 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 5:43 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

If anyone is still wondering how Thaumaturge works and why I said the results were checkerboarded:

Thaumaturge Results TableTownNot Town
Vanilla
Negative Result
Positive Result
Not Vanilla
Positive Result
Negative Result
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Post Post #1165 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:41 pm

Post by DragonEater70 »

In post 1157, TemporalLich wrote: Normal proposals I've found here and weren't suggested by me that I think could be Normal, and my thoughts on them:

Vain - Possibly a good idea I think? We have both Loyal and Disloyal.
Publishing - Seemingly good idea, but only works for investigative roles and might work strangely for Checkers. I feel this doesn't detract heavily from Normals, however this would necessarily cause the moderator to post information in the game thread. Also note that Publishing Informed can exist!
X-Result - The generalization of a X-Shot modifier that only depletes on a specific type of investigation result. If the greylist comes back, this would easily be on the greylist.
Gutless - Somewhat interesting, but would make Doctor interesting. This was originally suggested by creating a wiki page and saying the modifier was Normal, however.

Here is a post with some other Normal proposals, though I'm thinking Cursed isn't normal.
In post 919, DDynamo wrote:Informant Role: Targets a player to make them informed of a detail of the setup. Basically the Mailman, but the message you send is predetermined by the Moderator and unknown to the player.
Charging Modifier: A further modifier to X-Shot. Charging makes it so you get charges back for events that occur in the game, such as a Cop that gets a charge every time a Town Power role is eliminated at day.
Skimmer Role: If the Skimmer visits the same target as the Doctor, the Skimmer gets protected as well.
Famous Modifier: The existence, but not alignment, of the full role of the player is announced by the moderator at the beginning of the game.
X-Result Modifier: A role that only consumes charges if the role receives a certain result, such as a Cop that's only allowed one guilty result before the role ceases to function. That would be created in a game read as "1-Guilty Cop".
Cursed Modifier: Your role will only work on other players who are also Cursed.
Obsessive Modifier: Opposite of Roaming Modifier, if you target a player you must continue to try to target that player every night until they die, at which point you're free to change.



Thaumaturge is a role I've invented and really should see discussion before being Normalized, though I consider a Thaumaturge to be a Neapolitan variant with its checkerboarded results seeming like they would make the role interesting especially if there are role claims.
I really want Vain to be normal, I always wanted to have something like a Vain Vigilante for instance.
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Post Post #1166 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:42 pm

Post by DragonEater70 »

I dislike publishing as normal though
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Post Post #1167 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:46 pm

Post by DragonEater70 »

In post 1161, TemporalLich wrote:
In post 1158, Random Nurse wrote:Any consideration on these?
I don't think Sensor is Normal. Its reliance on wagons feels way too abNormal to me.

Vote-Activated also doesn't feel Normal to me. A reason that Supersaint isn't Normal is that it makes vote order relevant, and Vote-Activated makes vote order relevant.
Agreed
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Post Post #1168 (ISO) » Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:51 pm

Post by biancospino »

In post 1165, DragonEater70 wrote: I really want Vain to be normal, I always wanted to have something like a Vain Vigilante for instance.
Tbf you already can do pretty much that specific role; combined Vigilante (loyal Vigilante) (loyal Bodyguard)

Which is to say that Vain can essentially already faked in normals for Town only, with the roundabout construct "combined [role] (loyal Vig) (loyal Bodyguard)", except this is quite ugly and gives the townie a gunsmith guilty that probably shouldn't have
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Post Post #1169 (ISO) » Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:02 am

Post by RH9 »

In post 1161, TemporalLich wrote:
In post 1158, Random Nurse wrote:Any consideration on these?
I don't think Sensor is Normal. Its reliance on wagons feels way too abNormal to me.

Vote-Activated also doesn't feel Normal to me. A reason that Supersaint isn't Normal is that it makes vote order relevant, and Vote-Activated makes vote order relevant.
I agree with this for similar reasons.
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Post Post #1170 (ISO) » Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:05 am

Post by RH9 »

In post 1156, T-Bone wrote: Great, give me a list of roles people want to consider normal and then I will unilaterally add them or not!
As a complement/antithesis to Thaumaturge, maybe add Logician (it doesn't have a wiki page yet, but it checks if the tatget is either Mafia or a PR [but not both])?
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Post Post #1171 (ISO) » Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:09 am

Post by RH9 »

Regarding , I would say add Informant, Famous, X-Result and Obsessive. (Maybe also Skimmer?)
Charging feels too vague to be Normal (though it'd a good modifier for other games) and I'm ambivalent on Cursed.
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Post Post #1172 (ISO) » Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:10 am

Post by biancospino »

In post 1170, RH9 wrote:
In post 1156, T-Bone wrote: Great, give me a list of roles people want to consider normal and then I will unilaterally add them or not!
As a complement/antithesis to Thaumaturge, maybe add Logician (it doesn't have a wiki page yet, but it checks if the tatget is either Mafia or a PR [but not both])?
Isn't it actually the same then? Would return positive on (Vanilla Mafia) and on (PR Town), which is the same as
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Post Post #1173 (ISO) » Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:11 am

Post by camelCasedSnivy »

isnt that the same thing as a Thaumaturge but with inverted results
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Post Post #1174 (ISO) » Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:11 am

Post by RH9 »

In post 1157, TemporalLich wrote: Normal proposals I've found here and weren't suggested by me that I think could be Normal, and my thoughts on them:

Vain - Possibly a good idea I think? We have both Loyal and Disloyal.
Publishing - Seemingly good idea, but only works for investigative roles and might work strangely for Checkers. I feel this doesn't detract heavily from Normals, however this would necessarily cause the moderator to post information in the game thread. Also note that Publishing Informed can exist!
X-Result - The generalization of a X-Shot modifier that only depletes on a specific type of investigation result. If the greylist comes back, this would easily be on the greylist.
Gutless - Somewhat interesting, but would make Doctor interesting. This was originally suggested by creating a wiki page and saying the modifier was Normal, however.
Out of these, I think Vain, Gutless and X-Result seem like good ideas.
Publishing could work, I guess?
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