Mini #704: Hunchback of Notre Dame, Game Over

[Battousai]

Interesting YOU would say tunneling kills townie considering your earlier play with Ort. Also, replace both with either for a more correct grammar sentence in the post you quoted from me.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

@Mizzy: The deadline is about two days away and I still haven't seen you vote since your unvote over 2 weeks ago.

I will vote when I am comfortable with doing so and not a moment before.

I'm currently waiting on something a little more substantial from our star replacement, Natirasha, before voting him for his blatant inconsistencies. You want me to vote sooner then get him to post.

This sounds like you are planning to vote him regardless of what he will post. So if this is the case and he has blatant inconsistencies, why not vote now? Plus voting him will probably prompt him to post. Not voting is the worst thing one can do near a deadline.

[Mizzy]

This sounds like you are planning to vote him regardless of what he will post. So if this is the case and he has blatant inconsistencies, why not vote now? Plus voting him will probably prompt him to post. Not voting is the worst thing one can do near a deadline.

His next post or posts can stop me from voting him, which is why I am waiting. What he says will directly impact my actions.

And no, it's not the worst thing. Voting for someone who isn't going to get lynched is equal to not voting at all before a deadline; they are equal. Neither action stops a no-lynch.

Your vote isn't doing shit to stop a no-lynch, so leave me alone until that fact changes.

[CarnCarn]

I wouldn't mind lynching both me and CR today, but unfortunately that's not possible.

I would self-hammer to lynch at deadline if it was for an actual majority, but I think self-hammering here is pretty pointless for me, even in the face of no lynch.

I also wouldn't mind a Caboose lynch.

[destructor]

CR, you should probably claim now. I think the deadline is about 36 hours away.


Mizzy's minimal voting activity is unhelpful. I've seen her be the same with her votes as town before, so I'm inclined to see it as a null-tell in her case, even if I believe it's anti-town.

His next post or posts can stop me from voting him, which is why I am waiting. What he says will directly impact my actions.

What would be the difference between (a) voting him now then unvoting if his next post changes your mind, and (b) waiting for him to post, which he may never do, before deciding what to do? If he never posts, does that mean you won't vote him? If you will, how long do you wait before placing the vote?

You can always remove a vote, so I see no point in waiting to decide when you've already found a reason to vote someone. Yes, this is somewhat consistent with my past experience with you, but I don't see a good reason to hold back on something like this.


rofl, you haven't commented on my own read of CR or my case on CC. Can you do that?
You also say that no lynching would be unforgivable, but won't vote CC to stop one. Which is more important - avoiding a No Lynch or keeping CC alive?
What do you think CC's reasons for FOS'ing you were?

Mod:

Can Caboose and ortolan be prodded? They seem to have disappeared.

[petroleumjelly]

Day One: Vote Count #15

3 CarnCarn (Caboose, destructor, ThAdmiral)
3 ClockworkRuse (ortolan, CarnCarn, roflcopter)
1 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia)
1 Mizzy (Natirasha)
1 roflcopter (ClockworkRuse)

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch, and

4

to lynch at deadline. Deadline is December 11, at 9:59 pm CDT.

Not Voting – 3 – Axelrod, Battousai, Mizzy

Caboose and ortolan have been prodded.

Rule Change

: I have decided to retract the option of quoting excerpts from the novel by players if they are found in their role PMs. The more thought I give it, the less I like it. Apologies in advance if anybody had made plans contingent on this. The rules post has been modified to show this change.

[ThAdmiral]

it doesn't help the scum because you're scum

accusing me of tunneling doesn't help your case, because

tunneling is not in and of itself a bad thing

Yes it is.

[CarnCarn]

You also say that no lynching would be unforgivable, but won't vote CC to stop one. Which is more important - avoiding a No Lynch or keeping CC alive?

My take is that, if he's scum, he knows a hammer on me will get him in hot water since the case on me is paper thin at best. Scum are of course OK with a no lynch, even if it's technically possible to hammer a townie.
If he's town, he's got a good read on me, and honestly, a 4-vote lynch here doesn't really give too much information. Decent chance that wagoners could be all town. Although, in this case, I doubt everyone on my wagon now is town.

Also, I wonder when CR will get around to voting me. He's definately taking his time, that's for sure.

[ortolan]

I apologise, I got halfway through a re-read yesterday then got interrupted

I didn't want to post anything more because I haven't yet seen any reason to change my vote and didn't want to simply re-iterate what I previously said about CR.

Will finish re-read then post again tonight (Aussie time, it's 7pm here already)

[Mizzy]

What would be the difference between (a) voting him now then unvoting if his next post changes your mind, and (b) waiting for him to post, which he may never do, before deciding what to do? If he never posts, does that mean you won't vote him? If you will, how long do you wait before placing the vote?

You can always remove a vote, so I see no point in waiting to decide when you've already found a reason to vote someone. Yes, this is somewhat consistent with my past experience with you, but I don't see a good reason to hold back on something like this.

I don't like vote hopping without extremely good reason. Not to mention that doing such things is kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. I would rather be sure of a vote and stick with it than be wishy washy, but you do seem to know that already.

I suppose that my big issue with the way things are at the moment is that I don't think that either Carn or CWR should be lynched. Since I won't vote either one of them, no vote I place is productive. No vote I am okay with making is going to be anything but unhelpful in my eyes.

[ortolan]

I am somewhat torn, because if it wasn't for CR I see myself voting roflcopter at this point. This is based on him being obsessed with accusing others of "distancing" which seems to be a prime scum excuse for going after townies when they lynch a mafia player- he has accused both me and Caboose of "distancing" ourselves from CR (but later retracted the comment about me). Furthermore rofl seems to be voting Caboose after MM already made the case for him, even though immediately before rofl only thought Caboose worthy of being classified as "ambiguous".

It seems implausible that CR and roflcopter are scum together however, due in part to roflcopter's very vocal mudslinging.

And CR still strikes me as scummy, as recently as Post 292 he is still using the same (imo very bad) arguments to attack me (even though he has ostensibly withdrawn his case on me due to lack of evidence), which amount to these:

Ortolan's defense of Ramus detracts from the reactions that we can get from the latter.

Essentially CR voted for me based on policy, because potentially answering someone else's case can detract from the responses they give. He didn't ever argue this actually indicated I was scum, just that it wasn't helpful to town. Not only this, but he then went on to say:

And if you missed it, Ramus

did

defend himself. And his defense was better than anything Ortolan could give. And no where did I imply that Ramus was "oh-mah-gawd total scum" scummy. Hell, I barely even gave him a passing look.

So basically he's acknowledging in this that Ramus did defend himself anyway and these were "better" than the responses I could give, entailing that necessarily what I said did not detract from Ramus' need to defend himself (because he did so better than I could anyway), and thus there was not even policy reason to vote for me.

So the beginnings of CR's case actually amounted to nothing- he was voting for a policy reason which in fact wasn't a reason (yet he pursued me so persistently)

Rather than Caboose or myself, I see Mizzy as a more likely scumbuddy with CR. I dislike how she happily attacked me alongside CR then when he admitted to tunneling me, as if in synchronisation, she began to focus elsewhere also. And I'm still suspicious of the crap that went on with Post 155- Mizzy interpreting CR's posts for him etc.

And finally agreed with someone else who said that if nothing else one of the biggest merits of the CR lynch is the information potential. If he's town and thinks the people attacking him are scum he should be happy to have them exposed as such. roflcopter, as an alternative lynch target would not provide so much information (due to him not making/eliciting such lengthy discussion as of yet). Furthermore, I think his generally impulsive play may be somewhat explained by his meta (I am playing with him in another game where he's behaved similarly.)

[Axelrod]

Well, we are quickly running out of time. Natirasha has done nothing since coming in to make me think better about him than I did about uriel (which was not good). He's make one very odd and self contradictory post and commented that

everyone

seems artificial.

I think I'd rather push this lynch than any other at the moment.

Vote: Natirasha

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

After re-examining recent events:

1. I like neither CarnCarn nor CR as a lynch. If a gun was pointed at me and I had to pick one out of these two, it would be CR for the information, but again, it would be a last resort.

2. Out of my three previous suspicions, ThAdmiral has improved the most, so I won't consider voting him. I wouldn't mind voting for Uriel/Nat since Nat has done pretty much nothing since replacing. But I still consider Caboose my top choice given his weak CarnCarn vote and the fact that he has conveniently disappeared again when my initial pressure on him wore off.

So my current voting plan is the following, ignoring game-changing things that might come up such as claims:

Keep vote on Caboose right now
If no one else votes Caboose at deadline -24 hours, I will vote Nat
If there is no significant wagon on Caboose or Nat by deadline -12 hours, I will vote CR.

[Mizzy]

Checking in from work; I don't know how active I will be from now until the deadline so I am going to lodge my vote against Natirasha just in case.

My reasons for voting him have to do with his less-than-stellar replacing in and subsequent disappearance. Without the deadline in place, I would have called for his replacement, but time doesn't allow for that.

Vote: Natirasha

[roflcopter]

willing to switch to a natirasha or caboose wagon at deadline

my unwillingness to switch to a carncarn wagon has to do with a)my belief that he's town, b)my very strong belief that out of cwr and carncarn, cwr is the more likely to be scum and c)the fact that taking my vote off of cwr would make it less likely that anything could happen before deadline to make him the lynch

[CarnCarn]

Would also switch to Caboose wagon for deadline; not a big fan of lynching Nat on one/two posts that I think are really just Nat being Nat (and I actually agree that something seems "artificial"/strange about this game, but I can't put my finger on it).

[roflcopter]

having been in/being in several other games with caboose, i can say from experience that lurking like this is extremely uncharacteristic of his play

[Natirasha]

Sorry for my absense, I've been busy lately(seriously, just look at what all I'm doing on this site, and then there's my TF2 clan, and my basic responsibilities as a student.

So...ummm...yeah.

Unvote, vote: Caboose

. One of my goals no matter the alignment is to survive, unless I have explicit reason to believe that my death serves the greater good. As such, I'm going to ensure I don't die.

Honestly, I'm going to use the night to reread and try to sift through the strangeness of this game and find some actual evidence.

[destructor]

Caboose's lurking (he's definitely posting elsewhere on site) trumps CC's scumminess. The only other votes on CC are from Caboose himself and Thad, for reasons I don't wholly support myself. Nat's play doesn't seem malicious to me so far and I expect it to improve. Caboose hasn't really done anything different all game.

Unvote
Vote: Caboose

That's 3 votes on Caboose. CC is down to 2.

A claim from either CR or Caboose would be good right about now.

[ClockworkRuse]

Interesting YOU would say tunneling kills townie considering your earlier play with Ort. Also, replace both with either for a more correct grammar sentence in the post you quoted from me.

Did you notice how I admitted to tunneling and backed off? I saw how weak the case was and realized I needed some perspective.

CR, you should probably claim now. I think the deadline is about 36 hours away.


Mizzy's minimal voting activity is unhelpful. I've seen her be the same with her votes as town before, so I'm inclined to see it as a null-tell in her case, even if I believe it's anti-town.

His next post or posts can stop me from voting him, which is why I am waiting. What he says will directly impact my actions.

What would be the difference between (a) voting him now then unvoting if his next post changes your mind, and (b) waiting for him to post, which he may never do, before deciding what to do? If he never posts, does that mean you won't vote him? If you will, how long do you wait before placing the vote?

You can always remove a vote, so I see no point in waiting to decide when you've already found a reason to vote someone. Yes, this is somewhat consistent with my past experience with you, but I don't see a good reason to hold back on something like this.


rofl, you haven't commented on my own read of CR or my case on CC. Can you do that?
You also say that no lynching would be unforgivable, but won't vote CC to stop one. Which is more important - avoiding a No Lynch or keeping CC alive?
What do you think CC's reasons for FOS'ing you were?

Mod:

Can Caboose and ortolan be prodded? They seem to have disappeared.

Why am I claiming? Why isn't CarnCarn claiming as well?

You also say that no lynching would be unforgivable, but won't vote CC to stop one. Which is more important - avoiding a No Lynch or keeping CC alive?

My take is that, if he's scum, he knows a hammer on me will get him in hot water since the case on me is paper thin at best. Scum are of course OK with a no lynch, even if it's technically possible to hammer a townie.
If he's town, he's got a good read on me, and honestly, a 4-vote lynch here doesn't really give too much information. Decent chance that wagoners could be all town. Although, in this case, I doubt everyone on my wagon now is town.

Also, I wonder when CR will get around to voting me. He's definately taking his time, that's for sure.

I didn't want to, you've played pretty pro-town all game. I get the whole 'save myself from a lynch', but you would get more information out of my lynch than yours. So why would I vote someone I've considered more pro-town than non?

Ortolan, I'm not going to quote that block of yours. First, you can call my vote a policy vote for

pressure

at first. Your reaction of how scummy it was kept me going. That doesn't mean that my thoughts on you amount to nothing. Why are you still so eager to defend yourself against a case no one is pushing?

Well, we are quickly running out of time. Natirasha has done nothing since coming in to make me think better about him than I did about uriel (which was not good). He's make one very odd and self contradictory post and commented that

everyone

seems artificial.

I think I'd rather push this lynch than any other at the moment.

Vote: Natirasha

... What? If I live through this day, you can certainly expect a re-read on you. You are willing to lynch based on one post by a player?

Same with you Mizzy.

Caboose's lurking (he's definitely posting elsewhere on site) trumps CC's scumminess. The only other votes on CC are from Caboose himself and Thad, for reasons I don't wholly support myself. Nat's play doesn't seem malicious to me so far and I expect it to improve. Caboose hasn't really done anything different all game.

Unvote
Vote: Caboose

That's 3 votes on Caboose. CC is down to 2.

A claim from either CR or Caboose would be good right about now.

Once again, why am I claiming at L-2 at deadline?

Looking at Caboose, he's been posting on the site quite a lot, as destructor pointed out. Looking at his posts, the last one he made here was six days ago. Since then he has been posting in a few other games and other places. I had to go five pages into his posts to see a post from this game.

So he has been lurking pretty heavily.

Looking back through the posts Caboose made, after the random he made he seemed pretty uninterested in changing it. Making only small comments such as;

Of all the gambits that I know of, the one I HATE, no, LOATH the most is Fong's gambit. It's not catching anyone. It's just bad play. And it also gives a good excuse for scum who do something scummy early on.

Vote for me if you think I'm scummy. The one think I loathe is whiny players who don't do anything.

What was whiny about what I said?

For one, you call my play a bad one, yet you haven't made any real play yourself. Secondly, you call sum while you're at it. VOTE FOR ME IF YOU'RE GOING TO CALL ME SCUMMY.

There might be some people out there (ClockworkRuse for example) that might deserve my vote more than you. I'm still trying to determine that.

Forgot where his vote was, which I don't consider pro-town;

Unvote

Caboose, I see you're still keeping your early vote on Batt. Did you mean to do this?

Completely forgot about that.

Unvote

I would like to keep my vote on someone. And TheAd jumping on my bandwagon with little reasoning makes me a little suspicious, but I'll let him defend himself before placing a vote.

Couldn't bother to make cases for himself or re-read;

Could someone please summarize why CR is obvscum?

I found this a pretty weak vote;

townlist:
mizzy
carncarn
mach-maf
axelrod

Maybe it's just me, but I really don't like kinds of lists. The players often end up dead the next day.

FoS: roflcopter

That's how rofl rolls, there's no need for an FoS because of it.

And let me get this straight...you don't want ROFL helping the scum inadvertently by telling everyone who he thinks is what, and yet you FoSed him? An FoS tells us you might suspect someone is scum. However, if he is scum, and he posted a list of those he thinks is innocent, there's no real harm done because the scum will find out anyway. So to me, you basically scolded someone as if they were a bad townie and then accused them of being scum. Which is it?

Mizzy beat me to it. I don't get why a town list, especially from someone like rofl, merits an FoS.

Vote: CarnCarn

For FoSing rofl for a BS reason.

The pattern of Caboose's posts continues. In both of his twos posts after I pointed out the pattern, he is still delaying actually scumhunting and placing vote.

Yes, it does continue, and will continue. I post in short spurts of writing, I don't read or make really really long posts.

Then continues to argue that his vote is correct based on contrived opinons.

Chances of scum being on my wagon... quite high.

2 votes is a wagon?
Also people who say this are usually scum.

Vote stands.

Reading over Caboose, I'm comfortable dropping the hammer on him. He hasn't added anything all day, he's voted seriously once on a very weak reason, he's lurked heavily, and he was an over-all lazy townie.

Vote: Caboose

[CarnCarn]

I didn't want to, you've played pretty pro-town all game. I get the whole 'save myself from a lynch', but you would get more information out of my lynch than yours. So why would I vote someone I've considered more pro-town than non?

Unvote, Vote: Caboose

Let's try to get a majority lynch if possible.

Caboose's complete disappearance is unsettling and it's interesting that CR choose not to vote me given the chance. Of course, it's possible that CR is still scum and Caboose is town, who just looks really scummy.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

Caboose, if you haven't truly disappeared from this game yet, it's claim or die time with the deadline in less than 24 hours.

[Axelrod]

... What? If I live through this day, you can certainly expect a re-read on you. You are willing to lynch based on one post by a player?

Well, ignoring for the moment the posts of the player he replaced (which I wasn't), when we're up against a dealine, and considering that the one thing he did say made absolutely no sense at all...yes. I'd just as soon get rid of someone who might be scum and is definitely going to be useless as someone who might be scum but is at least posting.

But I'm not against the Caboose wagon either. Reviewing his posts, he's managed to be just as useless but used more words. I've never played with him before, so I don't know how he typically is, but this doesn't look too good.

I don't know when the deadline hits my time (Eastern Standard). I can next check back in around 9:00 a.m. in case something else happens.

[petroleumjelly]

Day One: Vote Count #16

5 urzassedatives (Machiavellian-Mafia, Natirasha, destructor, ClockworkRuse, CarnCarn)
2 CarnCarn (urzassedatives, ThAdmiral)
2 ClockworkRuse (ortolan, roflcopter)
2 Natirasha (Axelrod, Mizzy)

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch, and

4

to lynch at deadline. Deadline retracted until urzassedatives has time to catch up.

Not Voting – 1 – Battousai

urzassedatives replaces Caboose, effective immediately. A deadline of three more days will be reinstated after urzassedatives has had time to catch up.

[roflcopter]

god this deadline/no deadline/deadline/no deadline dance is killing me