Open 889 | Secrets of the Anuket Topaz | fin.

[T3]

What do you think is scummy about T3

he has a lot of posts for not trying to scumhunt at all

I’m definitely making reads and commentary on players, that is undeniable. The main thing I struggle with is active scumhunting, like actually pressuring people and asking questions.

[camelCasedSnivy]

ok actually in the spare time

VOTE: Andresvmb's slot

[camelCasedSnivy]

What do you think is scummy about T3

he has a lot of posts for not trying to scumhunt at all

I’m definitely making reads and commentary on players, that is undeniable. The main thing I struggle with is active scumhunting, like actually pressuring people and asking questions.

that's probably what I'm getting

[jjh927]

what if every scum are in the lowposters that arent me

How did you go from this to where you are now

[camelCasedSnivy]

what if every scum are in the lowposters that arent me

How did you go from this to where you are now

i stopped believing in that a while ago lmao

[jjh927]

I'm aware, that's why I asked

[Shirou]

[Andresvmb]

Okay apologies for that. Week ended up being busy and I fell asleep reading yesterday. I’ll read every post come back with some quick thoughts. And then I’ll be around.

[Andresvmb]

I should be able to get through this in like 2 hours or so there aren’t that many posts.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: jjh

Wrong account lmao

You were thinking jjh was trying to pocket you?

[Andresvmb]

ok so I thought after my streaming activities that I would get into this game but I have a hard time getting into the mood so I'ma just wait until I am "in the mood"

VOTE: Alisae

[Andresvmb]

271 is almost openly Scummy. I’m a bit surprised by it to be honest.

[Andresvmb]

in fact can we wait until gob and andres get replacements

I SHALL NOT BE REPLACED.

[Andresvmb]

I figured that would happen but it is still unfortunate that no one got to check in between the vote/unvote.

I wondered why Prism hadn't considered you actually scum-reading them as a likely possibility. Added with your history of apparently misreading them, if we assume Prism is town, it felt a bit puzzling that they thought you had to be doing it for a purpose other than suspecting them.

You are making the opposite mistake of Firebringer as described in 140.

I did not assume a scumread as suggested by Firebringer, but did think it likely. This is most obvious in my post 118: "There are two

good

reasons for him specifically to vote me that way

with zero substance

".

First, voting to annoy me and see what happens can help pursue a scumread, and I explicitly thought this was a good idea. Annoying me to see what happens really could be a good play, and he wouldn't be the first to sort me that way. It sucks for me when that's the tactic, but if it works it works.

Second, if there is a scumread but not an intent to annoy me, voting me

without explanation

is a

bad

idea. It is denying other players the chance to agree with his reasoning and any degree of insight into his sincerity.

Thus, if one of his goals was to see me voted out or to pursue the scumread,

consider changing tactics.

My motivation in expressing annoyance was not to vent, but on the off-chance that clear knowledge and feedback

somehow

improve his reads and indirectly help me as a result. My feedback on changing tactics was sincere, I wanted him to take it, I believed it to be useful, and it was very short and direct because I know his time is more valuable and scarce than my own.

---

If StD voted Prism because he was suspicious, why didn't he say so when Prism was talking about him "only doing it to annoy him or for reactions" for example?

It's a minor thing but it kinda bugs me that it took me asking him to confirm whether Prism said was right or not. Wouldn't the normal behavior be to explain shortly "I'm voting you because I think you're scum" rather than "uh okay" and dip out?

The lack of explanation is not indicative. He never plays that way. There are four answers to this working together harmoniously. The first is that I'm a jerk and don't deserve it. Other players are irrelevant to this reason. The second is that sometimes he does not have time to play that way. The third is that he rarely wants to play that way regardless. The fourth is that it makes it significantly easier to play scum if he does not play that way.

---

I don't think I see the utility here that you do

Dragons is a player that often skirts the nullish line, as he will readily admit. I don't view voting him out on the basis that he has a lower chance of being resolved through dayplay as negative EV. This is a policy judgment, but one that is comparative to other players and not in isolation. I wouldn't care if Dragons AFK voted me, refused to speak with me all game, and spammed up the game with 20 pages of nonsense so long as I think he can be accurately read, and if he can be accurately read without doing any of those things then that is all the better.

If I have an active scumread, I will always prioritize that vote. But until Dragons towntells or I am convinced another player will be harder to resolve by future dayplay, I will always be happy to vote the slot.

---

Scum don't have an obligation to instantly hammer if STD is town, but anyone theoretically could. If your instinct on a townflip would be to beat the hammerer with a stick then I think we could find ourselves going downhill very quickly.

I actually forgot that Day 1 does not have an escape mechanic available Night 1; I joined last time on Day 2.

My mindset was that a scum that blitzes instantly escapes. If the hammering player doesn't escape, we qualitatively evaluate on Day 2. I definitely did not mind a town hammer, but I would have preferred explicit passovers. This would have made the probability of Dragons being scum go up with every passover.

Scum don't get an escape mechanic on day 2 either if we don't collectively suck. If we get a scum on day 1 it is a very big deal. Don't policy people in this setup a few days into day 1.1

Also just as a reminder, if we don't suck we get 5 conftowns per scum killed in these 2 days. Which is probably most of the people on wagon if we only get 1.

@jjh I’m like horrified at that long post. I think you’re Town, and I would say T3 is Town. Given Prism’s proficiency, you’re telling me that they thought it was appropriate to vote based on a personal preference instead of a decent Scum Read after a lot more posting

given the massive reward for the Town if we get some things right

? I almost want to slot Prism as Scum and push it to the edge. The game is only beginning to heat up, and they thought this was reasonable? They’re posting too much for me to want to flip them just yet if I’m honest, but I’m having a real hard time viewing the motivation as Towny.

[Andresvmb]

Like the comment about executing STD not being negative EV is a total head scratcher.

[Prism]

...And the fact it was mechanically impossible to accomplish the actual scum motivation behind it-setting up a blitz and escape-is irrelevant to you?

[Andresvmb]

...And the fact it was mechanically impossible to accomplish the actual scum motivation behind it-setting up a blitz and escape-is irrelevant to you?

I can think of at least 3 different reasons why Scum would do what you did there. And you can hide behind sophisticated reasons, but (i) limiting the amount of information Town get, (ii) ensuring Scum don’t lose outright after two days, and (iii) voting a slot with sufficient cover seem like pretty strong ones. I don’t think the motivation you mention (which is impossible) is the only motivation that makes any sense there.

[jjh927]

I think Prism just hadn't read the setup information in years or something

Prism has seemed very towny to me and I'm getting increasingly inclined to go back to STD as the game goes on

[camelCasedSnivy]

in fact can we wait until gob and andres get replacements

I SHALL NOT BE REPLACED.

neither of you ended up being replaced

[camelCasedSnivy]

this might be angleshooty but i think that both gob and andres wouldn't have waited this long to post as scum and therefore I'm good calling them both town for now

[Prism]

...And the fact it was mechanically impossible to accomplish the actual scum motivation behind it-setting up a blitz and escape-is irrelevant to you?

I can think of at least 3 different reasons why Scum would do what you did there. And you can hide behind sophisticated reasons, but (i) limiting the amount of information Town get, (ii) ensuring Scum don’t lose outright after two days, and (iii) voting a slot with sufficient cover seem like pretty strong ones. I don’t think the motivation you mention (which is impossible) is the only motivation that makes any sense there.

Can you describe to me in what worlds those first two things happen as a result of my vote? What has to happen, exactly?

Dragons has to actually get voted out shortly after I vote. This is

very unlikely to happen

without the escape-blitz mechanic. The way to actually get that result is scum to hope for E-1, then post basically the same thing with a real hammer. [Note that as town, I didn't think anyone else is likely to put him at E-1 and give me the chance to do so because I believed there to be the escape mechanic. E-2 is effectively E-1 for town players.]

The stronger argument is that I

would not believe

in policying Dragons as town because of 1 and 2. jjh is arguing the irrationality, even though he thinks it's plausible for me. I'm unwilling to delve into arguing the sincerity of my belief. Dig up my last two games with Dragons if you want: They're Divide & Conquer and Moderators of the Discord Server.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t like Shirou’s interactions with imaginality

I get the reverse feeling. As in, I appreciate Shirou pushing imaginality to further explain their thinking. And it’s fair to ask if imaginality had read every post thus far since what they had asked about had been at least answered in part. I think imaginality realized that they were being called out (fairly) for not paying sufficient attention, and pivoted to a more specific follow up not to look bad. I don’t know if I maginality actually cares about the response but I’m still reading.

[Prism]

It dawned on me that 445 was really not interesting and not worth the words. Sorry about everyone.

I'm still mostly fine staying put and waiting for more from Andres, patchwork, and gob.

Camel's latest string of posts have been null-scum. The T3 counterwagon idea was the first time camel expressed any conviction and persistence, but it was very half-baked and weirdly timed to defend gob. Camel even recognized he felt a weird obligation to defend gob (because he once previously used the same awful assumption?) which made me forgive it but then...doesn't stop and still just randomly votes around?

[camelCasedSnivy]

doesn't stop and still just randomly votes around?

yeah i don't put someone at E-1 when we have time

[Andresvmb]

...And the fact it was mechanically impossible to accomplish the actual scum motivation behind it-setting up a blitz and escape-is irrelevant to you?

I can think of at least 3 different reasons why Scum would do what you did there. And you can hide behind sophisticated reasons, but (i) limiting the amount of information Town get, (ii) ensuring Scum don’t lose outright after two days, and (iii) voting a slot with sufficient cover seem like pretty strong ones. I don’t think the motivation you mention (which is impossible) is the only motivation that makes any sense there.

Can you describe to me in what worlds those first two things happen as a result of my vote? What has to happen, exactly?

Dragons has to actually get voted out shortly after I vote. This is

very unlikely to happen

without the escape-blitz mechanic. The way to actually get that result is scum to hope for E-1, then post basically the same thing with a real hammer. [Note that as town, I didn't think anyone else is likely to put him at E-1 and give me the chance to do so because I believed there to be the escape mechanic. E-2 is effectively E-1 for town players.]

The stronger argument is that I

would not believe

in policying Dragons as town because of 1 and 2. jjh is arguing the irrationality, even though he thinks it's plausible for me. I'm unwilling to delve into arguing the sincerity of my belief. Dig up my last two games with Dragons if you want: They're Divide & Conquer and Moderators of the Discord Server.

Like in life, I like to make the assumption that players play suboptimally and make irrational decisions. If your belief that no player would ever hammer STD there is actually true and widely shared, why did jjh unvote? Do you think it’s because they think that it’s

extremely unlikely

that STD actually gets executed? And why does it have to come from Scum? If one of the Town for whatever reason decides to lolhammer, and STD flips Town, then what?

My point is that you’re playing a dangerous game as Town by actually placing the vote there instead of just attacking STD and threatening to push them to the edge if they don’t contribute because they seem perfectly happy to just sit there even when under some pressure and when that doesn’t work, follow through with the threat.

I’m only harping on this because I can tell you’re experienced and the mechanics here massively reward a Scum execution. So why don’t we try and be a bit surer?