Open 888 | Welcome to Feryland! -- End!

[DragonEater70]

Actually you know what, I have a gut feeling Kittie is scum.

Her hedginess, indecisive newbiness, and cutesy innocence and towniness are things that I've seen newer scum players wielding with much effectiveness in the past.

Dannflor is right - I think that if Black was scum, she would be pushing things much more aggressively this game. And that orobably applies to all the veteran players.

And I actually think that from reading the game state, it makes a lot of sense that scum haven't been very aggressive this game, and that instead they laid low and let town tear each other apart. I already had a game like that in the newbie queue, where I locked three other townies as town on Day 1, and then eliminated two of them on Day 1 and Day 2 because they were just 1v1'ing each other while the scum hedged on the sidelines.

I think if you view it in this light, then this game makes a lot more sense.

VOTE: kittie

[Afrayed Knott]

Also DE why are you role fishing? 896

Dragon just so you don't miss it....

It's not role fishing

I literally explained why I thought that it's possible that someone would have a guilty because VIP thought it was TMI, which it wasn't.

But it is, you assume there are no masons and then state that it would be a crazy notion if Black and Comet are masons. You also state that there maybe a possibility someone may have an investigative role. If that isn’t fishing I don’t know what is.

Why even bring this up?

Yes you could argue that based on probabilities it has to be either this or that. But there is a simpler reason. And that’s you have a greater understanding as you know what column we are in, and there is only one way that would be a fact?

[DragonEater70]

Knott, you clearly have no clue what roefishing is if you think I was rolefishing.

Setup speculation (which I didn't even do, I just said there was a possibility of an investigative existing) is NOT the same as role fishing.

[DragonEater70]

Do you ACTUALLY believe that if I were scum in column B (which is what you are implying by saying I know the column) I would say "I don't think Black and Comet are masons" and actually expect that this would somehow give me insight into their roles?

I can't believe you actually believe this shit, sorry.

[Afrayed Knott]

I do believe it so it’s not shit. Your reaction is also not considered as it’s been before

You can shout as much as you want. I think you are. And No I am considering you are scum in A or C.

[Kittiesecret]

cutesy innocence

I can confirm this is just personality

[DragonEater70]

Ok sorry guys, I'm feeling terrible so I won't be able to post until tomorrow probably

[Dannflor]

hi sorry for dropping off, i had a really busy day at work yesterday and went to sleep early

I have some thoughts on this game ill share today

[Cometbright]

Read through but am stuck on phone which is awkward cause really need to pin up quotes for a response which I can’t do easily on phone.

Will respond to something from you Knott real quick - I realise now I was confused and was under the impression you voted Black thinking it was a Black/Gimli scum team in Day 1 because of the weird vote test thing you did and when I asked if that was what you were doing in #781 your response in #786 didn’t actually clarify if that was the case and I interpreted it as you saying “Yes that was why I did it and you can’t tell me what to do with my vote so back off.” hence me bringing up what I viewed as your poor reasoning for the Black/Gimli scum team. There’s still bits I’m confused about but we’ll touch on that later.

I still have some issues with this whole Timmer/Black thing but I’ll get into that when I’m not on phone.

[Cometbright]

Just in case you’re around Knott and can respond, let me make sure we’re on the same page here so I don’t end up confused again.

Your current scumteam is Black (now Dann) and Timmer. Timmer you view as scum for several different reasons whereas Black you viewed as scum because it looked like she was trying to cover and help Timmer out of his wagon. Do I have that all right? Am I missing anything?

[TimmerRC]

OMG, I'm so sorry guys, life has been busy over here and I feel like i need a restart on how im viewing this game with two new players? That disrupts my head big time. But I'm home and reading up now.

[TimmerRC]

Just read pages 37/38. Welcome Dann!

These pages are not very useful to me, chatter about past games just isn't something I can use. I can barely keep up with my own game, I certainly don't have time to go read another one, and even if I did, a good scum can easily point to a playstyle someone used in a certain alignment and find ways to cherrypick posts to try to suggest a similar alignment here. It's null for me. Moving on.

Quick vibestate at this point. Afrayed mentioned on one of those pages that Gimli's downfall was their lack of engagement with the game, and this certainly contributed and may have been exploited by the scum. I can see exploiting that fact working in either of two essentially opposite ways; if scum guessed that a limp Gimli would prob get town-limmed without their help they could have kept their attention elsewhere. or, they could have just as likely given nudges to keep our attention on them. I don't like that both options are equally plausible.

[TimmerRC]

Ok, caught up.

This is a fucking challenging spot.

I feel like the things people are dwelling on the most are things that aren't very fruitful in general, but I can also see that it's kind of all we've got.

Kittie is barely here. An experienced player knows that being scum and simply quiet-coasting is kind of lame, but a new player may not realize that, so she's hard to call.

Afrayed has had a stubborn "no i'm right and you are wrong" Pingu arms crossed meme thing all game and it is dense and convoluted. I lean towards self-blindered town for them but the style of posting is brutal to read alignment into.

Dragon and now Dann are discussing past games as mafia histories to show that they are town, and I just can't trust that and it is taking up too much space in my brain. Dragon also is discussing being performative but a good mafia player can use their playstyle in any alignment so that's null.

And VIP has changed into Merlyn, so welcome, but that will doubtless reset them in my head.

About the only person I feel I have clarity on is Comet, who just feels townie to me.

[Dannflor]

I agree comet is townie

[Dannflor]

Do you have a read on Dragon, Timmer?

[Kittiesecret]

@Dannflor

Timmer had some what I felt were good reads on Dragon back on day one.
I would be interested in seeing an update though

@Dragon, you are a different story.

You weren't quite as vote-crazy early on, making only 4 of the first 31 votes (12.5%), but you've made 8 of the last 20 in the game (40%).

In fact in those 20 votes, no one else has made more than 2. And of those 8 votes, 7 of 8 were votes for people who already had votes against them. Please double check this, but:
- you voted Kittie when VIP's vote was on them,
- VIP when black and python were on them,
- back to kittie, same scenario,
- on Black, a vote that i think was the only one on him but it lasted only one post of yours, and then...
- on yourself(!) when VIP was on you,
- then Gimli when Knott and Python were,
- Knott when Comet and I were on them,
- on me when Knott and Python were on me...

From what I can see your only vote in that streak that was an original vote was your vote for Black, and you changed that vote in your very next post, self-voting instead.

So my question for you is why are you making so many votes than everyone else in this stage of the game, but only 1 of them is an "original" vote that wasn't following an established lead, and that lasted all of 1 post of yours?

Since we use votes to show where we're at, i'll VOTE: Dragon

In post 560, DragonEater70 wrote:
I still haven't caught up, and I am not sure when I will have time to fully catch up (I do intend to do ot as soon as I can),
Considering that i just found that you are basically voting more than the rest of the game combined right now, I would say that you are posting a ton and know very well where the game is at? You are def my top scumread at the moment.

[TimmerRC]

Do you have a read on Dragon, Timmer?

The biggest thing I can point to with Dragon is that they have 184 posts, but I think I can count the number of times they actively promoted an original thought on one hand. It's a lot of talking, a lot of replying, a ton of votes, a TON of referencing past games which is useless to players in my position. I wouldn't be stunned at all if they were bad.

[Cometbright]

pg 12- Ah, a classic python fake hammer.  Gimli, Black, and Comet all dumbtelled, huh?  Yeah that's too many dumbtells

Not entirely sure what you're saying with this. You think it's scummy that we all played along with the fake hammer?

[Cometbright]

Please tell me where it says I should do what you are insisting I do.

Please tell me where I said that? You can play or vote how you like - I'm just also allowed to scum or town read you for how you play respectively.

You should read this for your first dig

I did miss this - my bad. I think I skimmed and didn't pay it too much heed cause I'm generally hesitant to get too heavy into speculating why someone was killed A: because it's a WIFOM minefield and B: I don't want to give mafia any assistance with their own night kill analysis. I still think my point regarding why sheeping them isn't the best of ideas is valid though - you say they were forceful and killed for their reads but their main scumread (Gimli) that they pushed ended up flipping town - doesn't that sort of put a bit of a damper on that whole idea?

[Cometbright]

Bu that was not my reason for my vote, stop misreping me thank you

Now that I have a better idea of why you're actually voting Black here I'm still a little bit confused by the logic. The posts you specifically outlined regarding Black as being suspicious is #565/#647 where you say you feel like Black is trying to deflect a wagon, right? My points regarding the whole Black/Gimli thing still apply here - Black being scum is conditional on Timmer being scum according to your own argument right? If Timmer is town then the whole scumpartner trying to deflect their fellow scum's wagon here obviously doesn't make sense, so in no world should you want Black executed before Timmer - a Timmer flip actually would confirm if your theory is even right or not whereas a Black flip gives you less info to work with.

Now you did vote Timmer first, true. If your vote had stayed on Timmer then I think it'd be an okay vote even if I disagree with it, but why would you switch to putting Black at E-1 so quickly? I don't find the arguments of pressure being of much worth because again it was so early that only three people (you, Dragon and VIP/Anen) had posted so what exactly does putting Black to E-1 do? Again - you state it clearly in #985 that you are confident in Timmer scum and it's the *interactions* with the Timmer slot that has you scumreading Black so Black!scum is absolutely conditional on Timmer!scum right? I just don't get why you would ever want to hammer Black before Timmer knowing that.

[Cometbright]

This is pretty much the main reason I'm scumreading you. When I try and put myself in town!Knott's shoes where I'm fully committed to your arguments and beliefs then I would be pushing hard for a Timmer execute as he's my confident scum and then when he flips scum I then push Black because of her scummy interactions of trying to cover for scum!Timmer. Instead you've been trying to mostly get Black executed first and it makes no sense from my town!Knott perspective. Lets say Black flips scum - I was already confident in Timmer scum so that isn't helping me... and if Black flips town then I've made a serious blunder but it doesn't even clear Timmer in my head because I'm scumreading Timmer for reasons outside of the Black interactions so I've gained nothing from it.

Whereas if I look at your posts from a scum!Knott perspective then I can see a more logical/realistic reason for why I've been acting the way I am - getting a townie to E-1 so early in day 2 is putting pressure on town and not me or my scum!partner. I can rationalise and make sense of the actions (even if personally I think putting someone to E-1 that early is just going to make everyone on the wagon look scummy) - which I can't do as town!Knott.

If you can explain if I'm missing something here then I'd appreciate it - I've seen multiple people now saying they see you as very townie and I'd love to understand/agree with them, but I just don't get the whole pushing for Black before Timmer thing you've been doing.

[Cometbright]

Okay it's very late and I should sleep. Enjoy your evening yanks

[Merlyn]

pg 12- Ah, a classic python fake hammer.  Gimli, Black, and Comet all dumbtelled, huh?  Yeah that's too many dumbtells

Not entirely sure what you're saying with this. You think it's scummy that we all played along with the fake hammer?

All of you? No, Gimli did and he obviously turned out town. I'm saying that reading that many dumbtells in a row seems disingenous to me, like scum could have hoped to gain towncred there. It does make me want to look more closely at you and Black. And DE to some extent.

[Merlyn]

Hi merlyn welcome to the game

Yeah that's too many dumbtells

what's a dumbtell? for those of us with fuzz in their brains

A dumbtell is when somebody pretends not to know something when they really do. In this case, I'm saying that I wouldn't be surprised that someone or more than one someone who professed they didn't know that a hammer hadn't really happened actually did know, and played it up to be able to give a towny 'oh no!' kind of reaction.

@Mod

I acknowledge that I have placed people at E1 without informing everyone, and I have confirmed in the rules that I have to do this. Please note that this is only my second game back after a long absence and my first game didn’t last long. So I am still rusty. Sorry

It's not a rule per se. Players aren't required to make note of voting to E-1. It's considered a good practice in Newbie games.

[Merlyn]

Forgot to type the rest of what I meant to say! I wanted to add that it doesn't usually benefit town to accidentally hammer and it can potentially benefit scum to 'accidentally hammer' or get town to hammer another townie without meaning to, so it's just not great practice anywhere to not announce.