Splitting hairs but I don't think I was widely townread at that time. Basically everyone had me in null, and was either well-aware of my range or immediately perceptive of it.
Only today have player's reads mostly trended out of it.
This paragraph is one of the most important I will post all game.
The strongest indicator camel and It's interactions were +town actually dates back to camel's first push on T3. I immediately intervened, shut it down, and started pushing camel for it. This was his first attempt at a real push and hunting activity, and I immediately slammed the door on it and put him on the backfoot. This is very disadvantageous for me: I can easily get towncredit elsewhere essentially on demand, while camel is more inexperienced and would struggle.
In short, I totally shut down camel's first real active move and immediately put him on the backfoot, which would be setting up the team for failure as he is the weak link.
On a totally separate and more academic note, the interesting thing about camel's push on me is that it was an OMGUS completely lacking in substance, and this was probably intentional. He was very explicit about framing it as a 1v1 and playing up the idea it was a spat. This was probably intentional to deflect from the fact I had his number at two different points, first in his half-baked push on T3 and second when he accidentally admitted his own reason for pushing me was bad. He was not eager to fight it out on the merits.
When I later stayed dogged, he played into a more emotional exasperated angle to again lean both to appeal to me and deflect again as a 1v1 not worth reading.
I'm going to lean town on imaginality overall for it, but the opposite perspective would be that camel voted imaginality at the end after I forced him to take a stand, and therefore camel could not blitz imaginality and leave. This can mean that camel wasn't planning on escaping with an imaginality flip, but I think it's more likely that another scum might be waiting in the wings for it. Him asking for a revised votecount might also imply he wanted attention to shift away from imaginality, but this is a stretch.
I didn't finish this thought. I think this suggests that camel did not like the stagnation on the imaginality wagon and was concerned my push would cause it to flip to him. The opposite explanation would be that camel didn't want dueling scum wagons, but it's not intuitive that he would back off from a bussing vote instead of doubling down on it when he's getting scumread.
mod i am very busy with work stuff consider me v/la till friday night
@StD i think my townread of you has been superficial and I think town you would put me in your scum pool at this point. I also didn't like your interactions with camel when i went back to it.
I also told the scum team we are definitely killing shirou here to save him from himself.
So your welcome shirou
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
This is what I found in terms of people trying to guide the D2 focus towards Titus v me:
In post 1648, Ydrasse wrote:
gut impulse is that it's titus + imaginality + 1
In post 1902, jjh927 wrote:
Imaginality scum becomes a lot more likely if you're town [this was to Titus]
In post 1919, Ydrasse wrote:
i think titus is a good vote if people wanted to vote her but i don’t think that happens so i’m on imaginality
In post 2084, Ydrasse wrote:
UNVOTE:
going to reread soon, don’t feel so keen about this vote anymore
titus v imaginality could be s/s but that doesn’t feel right rn
In post 2308, gob wrote:
Well we never want to vote outside of Titus/imaginality today because they were both the strongest c-wagons when you factor out people afk-parked on Ydrasse.
"holy shit this entire time i thought imaginalitys profile was a purple seahorse" - camelCasedSnivy
In contrast, I think I am growing more confident that Andres is scum.
First, I am still suspicious of the way camel continuously lumped gob and Andres together into one bucket. A collection of some interactions are below.
In post 444, camelCasedSnivy wrote:
this might be angleshooty but i think that both gob and andres wouldn't have waited this long to post as scum and therefore I'm good calling them both town for now
In post 455, Andresvmb wrote:
It’s possible Snivy knows gob is Town and is defending a slot that’ll flip in the hopes that no one will go after them tomorrow, but I don’t know how much I actually believe this take.
in that world i feel like i would say gob is town and then proceed to do nothing about it except to hang onto that read
This is the most substantive interaction he has with Andres.
In post 459, camelCasedSnivy wrote:
i think gob, andres, shirou are all town and ydrasse + firebringer are in my probably town tier
In post 1939, camelCasedSnivy wrote:
for now i think shirou is my only townread, my tr on gob and andres is falling off and at the same time titus is just nulltown for me
In post 2072, camelCasedSnivy wrote:
speaking of which, {jjh927, std, andres, imaginality} are in my poe, i could compromise on {T3, Prism} but i dont think we'll get there
In post 2191, Prism wrote:
This was less than a minute. Why did you think gob was town? What changed?
my reasoning for townreading gob was pretty bad, it was just the inactivity + his progression on me that townread him. i think, aside from my prior jjh scumread that gob could be a partner. otherwise gob is kinda in my "willing to lim but not really" with andres
firebringer ydrssse (and gob and andres i would arue too)
These quotes constantly treat Andres and gob as being two peas in a pod to put in the same pool, even as the nature and frequency of their posting are two different tales.
Importantly, he is angleshooting and making excuses to lump them both into a vague townpool.
I think this is an unusual and overbroad choice as scum, and I think the tactical choice is meaningful. I think he is making up an excuse to fit a partner into the townpool. This identical treatment continues even as gob gets more widely townread as an individual. This still leaves open the question of which of the two it is, and it is difficult to tell from camel's side. Some posts are openly WIFOM.
Second, I actually do not favor Andres individually upon review. I'm going to review a few different moments.
In post 454, Andresvmb wrote:
gob takes the cake for the Scummiest entrance I’ve seen in a while (and so many players agree!).
Also, jjh is Town. I’ll die on that hill.
In post 455, Andresvmb wrote:
It’s possible Snivy knows gob is Town and is defending a slot that’ll flip in the hopes that no one will go after them tomorrow, but I don’t know how much I actually believe this take.
This set of posts is interesting: the reason that everyone is scumreading gob is because we're wondering if gob is whiteknighting town, and Andres takes it a step further to wonder if camel is whiteknighting gob in turn. This isn't so different from my own criticism at the end of the day-which was that I just found the defense bizarre, despite camel being candidly half-hearted in it, but I'm knocking Andres for very lukewarm prescience.
I also find the hard-town jjh read strange. It was VERY early and jjh is skilled at the scum alignment as well. Next up we have a much more extended interaction with myself:
Spoiler: Andres/Prism Day 2 spat
In post 1989, Andresvmb wrote:
I think we should be flipping in {STD, Shirou}, there’s a decent chance Prism is Scum too.
I have so much to read and very little thread presence, but I would think that as Town, it makes a lot of sense to listen to Alisae and I like these takes.
Andres gives me as a third choice. Nothing to write home about. I do think it is important to note that this is at a time when I am not widely townread: most players have me at null, and gob was repeatedly calling for my head.
In post 1997, Andresvmb wrote:
I need to just read and shut up frankly. I don’t like feeling like if I say something, people are just going to put me down bysaying well you haven’t read so whatever your opinion is useless.
The bigger issue is underexplanation. Your
conclusions
are second-order and not what people are actually looking forward to.
I don’t have the time to be providing detailed explanations. It’s partly why I don’t play much anymore - I can’t give it the focus I think my fellow players deserve (as either alignment).
Even so, I’ll say this. The biggest issue I have with Shirou from what I have been able to read is the confidence they expressed in their read of Alisae. They were perfectly happy to twist every post and position into a Scum narrative to get their way, which it looks like eventually they did. I’m fairly certain we need to punish that. Because the motivation is particularly strong in this game to not have Scum executed D1.
Should I be reading scum or town intent into the fact Andres stated he couldn't do what I was asking, then gave what I was asking for anyway?
In post 2005, Prism wrote:
I am terrified. The bar you set was insanely low and both of these players instantly clear it. I would love to know what gymnastics you use to justify setting the bar impossibly high for others.
In post 2006, Prism wrote:
Even more frightening is that you have me as third with Dragons and Shirou. I could infer rational reasons for Alisae's belief because e had a specifically biased worldview that colored certain interactions. Something tells me yours are significantly worse at best and nonexistent at least.
Are you calling me Scum? Just say it. I don’t know what this is even supposed to mean.
These are best read collectively. He thinks my objection to his Shirou/Fire anti-team read is scummy. He moves to worrying I am scumreading him as I become more critical.
In post 2011, Andresvmb wrote:
I could be wrong but Prism seems to be dismissing Alisae’s reads completely and at the very least you would be considering them seriously here given the confirmation that they were coming from a Town perspective. You could argue they were wrong and perhaps expand on that but I don’t find it convincing in the least to just dismiss their views with “they were biased though rational”. I take that to mean that because they were attacked directly by some of the slots, it’s reasonable that they Scum Read them? Okay, you’re sitting on the outside - isn’t the strength of the push there not give you some suspicions? It does to me.
This post is terrible but plausible. Assuming it's from town, the takeaway is Andres insists my refusal to listen to Alisae's reads is scummy.
In post 2010, Prism wrote:
You think that Shirou's 989, coming off the heels of an interaction where Firebringer and I are exchanging jokes, is an attempt to insert himself and ingratiate himself with Firebringer in a way that would not occur if Firebringer was also scum.
This is drastically underestimating both players and I could easily find parallel scenarios to rule out every possible S/S pairing that doesn't involve imaginality. I am not calling you scum for it, but I do think it is a very bad read and hipfiring in a way that prioritizes giving content over actually solving and giving
good
content.
You’re not calling me Scum for it? So just a bad player?
Again, more concerned with whether or not I'm scumreading him than my substantive critiques.
In post 2017, Andresvmb wrote:
You’re way too focused on the reasons as to why Alisae thought you were Scum, and therefore any and all reasons Alisae had for SR’ing STD / Shirou (which were independent of your slot) are bad? This doesn’t make sense to me. I admit that in part, I threw your name out there as a compliment to an STD / Shirou Scum Team. It kind of fits, but Town (and that includes me) never get the Team right on the first try. I certainly don’t think I will either. I do, however, think Shirou is an excellent slot to scrutinize.
His interpretation of my posts is wrong which makes this difficult to parse, but it's unclear to me why he's backing off of me here.
In post 2020, Andresvmb wrote:
Also, disagreeing with another player is a terrible reason to vote them.
I’m not just going to let that slip by.
It’s a really bad explanation for your vote on Alisae. This is a game based on opinions and perceptions, that then gets facts thrown into it. You will find yourself disagreeing with others. If you go around voting those you disagree with, and protecting those that you agree with (or presumably agree with you), then you’ll be the easiest player to pocket.
He does let it slip by. I stop talking to him about it and he townreads me a few minutes later. As a sidenote, it is deeply ironic that he is lecturing me about how I need to not vote people I disagree with, shortly after complaining that I am severely critiquing him and his reasoning without scumreading him.
In post 2017, Andresvmb wrote:
You’re way too focused on the reasons as to why Alisae thought you were Scum, and therefore any and all reasons Alisae had for SR’ing STD / Shirou (which were independent of your slot) are bad? This doesn’t make sense to me. I admit that in part, I threw your name out there as a compliment to an STD / Shirou Scum Team. It kind of fits, but Town (and that includes me) never get the Team right on the first try. I certainly don’t think I will either. I do, however, think Shirou is an excellent slot to scrutinize.
You are still mixed up but I am again tired and bored. I doubt anyone else has any interest in this conversation. I'm fine with you assuming the worst and scumreading it. My hope is that you shift your commentary elsewhere.
My vote and strongest SR is Shirou. You’re the one who is wrong.
The next two posts for me are the coup d'grace, keeping in mind that Andres has repeatedly been uncomfortable and uncertain as to whether I am scumreading him for his tertiary push on me just because of how sharp-tongued my critique is.
In post 2024, Andresvmb wrote:
My vote and strongest SR is Shirou. You’re the one who is wrong.
I am very aware and have been since post 1. It is impressive what you are managing to read into 2021.
Do you really want to keep doing this? I wished you a good night and was sincere in it.
You’re being so obnoxious I will slot you as Town and stop this interaction. Go for the discredit all you want and ignore flipped Town. You do you. When the game is over we can compare notes to see what actually happened. And if you’re Scum good for you for demotivating me into TR’ing you.
I think these are adjustments to the type of player Andres had wrongfully pegged me as: someone who reflexively scumreads their own scumreaders. Andres was worried the entire dialogue that my scumread grew as we exchanged words. These read like an attempt to dial it back lest he get tunneled.
Prior to these final two posts, Andres said first that my dismissive attitude reinforced a scumread on the slot and that my rejection of Alisae was scummy and that he wouldn't let it slide. He then swaps to townreading the former and lets the second slip, coincidentally as he becomes more and more concerned that I am reflexively scumreading and tunneling him. If these thoughts were legitimate, I think he would have instead wondered if my aggression was an attempt to shut him out.
The short of the spoiled commentary: Andres at one point asserted I was scummy for my dismissive attitude towards himself and Alisae, asserting he wouldn't let it slide. As he was increasingly criticized, he became increasingly concerned with whether or not I was scumreading him even as it was plain I did not. He then quickly switches to emphasizing I am not his primary scumread and townreading me for being obnoxious as my criticisms ramp up. I am speculating that this is an on-the-fly adjustment: Andres is scum fearing he had hit on a reflexive tunneler, and he reacted accordingly by trying to recenter the Shirou scumread and giving me a townread.
mod i am very busy with work stuff consider me v/la till friday night
@StD i think my townread of you has been superficial and I think town you would put me in your scum pool at this point. I also didn't like your interactions with camel when i went back to it.
I also told the scum team we are definitely killing shirou here to save him from himself.
So your welcome shirou
I hunted down all of the times Andres called a player obnoxious to see how he reads it. It's not clear. Usually it's in the context of bad mechanical advocacy and wider leadership. For interpersonal scrutiny, once he found the same sort of abrasion & condescension scummy and had it reinforced via flip. It's difficult to confidently evaluate these across contexts.
I didn't finish this thought. I think this suggests that camel did not like the stagnation on the imaginality wagon and was concerned my push would cause it to flip to him. The opposite explanation would be that camel didn't want dueling scum wagons, but it's not intuitive that he would back off from a bussing vote instead of doubling down on it when he's getting scumread.
Overall, I think this points to imaginality town.
I have something to say about this but I'll wait for everyone to see this first.
hi i am very tired and mapping out my thoughts = many words is not happening right now
preference to vote andres > dragons, it's close. camel's song and dance around andres day 1 and andres saying nothing of merit about camel isn't good. andres has also had some questionable pushes, reading back it feels like wolf who has the Intel and is one step ahead of town who is doing silly things .
dragons not voting camel after having camel low in reads isn't great but i believe the vibes around dragons as being frustrated town who cant communicate feels a bit spiteful to town for not getting it etc
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
"You are the Joker of mafia players" - Oversoul
"last time I was scum with Firebringer
his first post in the scum PT was "yes I rolled scum!"
I decided to post "haha just don't post that in the main thread", but to get up to date on the main thread first.
His first post in the main thread was "yes I rolled scum!" -popsofctown
In post 3057, Lazy Shirou wrote:
I just hope that if the game doesn't end with StD, and any of [JJH/T3/Prism] escapes tonight, you all seriously consider my theory that camel may have been the weakest link of the scum team tomorrow
It's possible too that camel hammered Titus to avoid a Imaginality lim at all costs but /shrug by this point
If I was making an assumption as to how I’m looking at the game, I would start with the place that Scum didn’t bus D1 too hard (too much risk, but would still distance), could have possibly bussed D2 but would still avoid doing it, and Camel was definitely the weakest link.
For what it’s worth, I do think you’re Town and I agree with your logic. I don’t know what those assumptions would point to, but I can tell you that in a theoretical team that contains both Camel and I, I would have escaped or certainly asked to escape. I hate playing Scum and can’t maintain it long-term. Even if Camel’s positions made little sense overall, they seemed more convincing and less likely to be voted due to sheer apathy than I am right now. So it wouldn’t have been great to keep me. Camel also voted my slot (as has been pointed out), when I didn’t return the favor. They probably benefit more from my escape than vice versa. So I don’t think I make sense in a team with Camel but whatever works for everyone else.
@Prism look it doesn’t really matter what you think I am. Ultimately if we lose because I get voted out I will take responsibility - I just haven’t played well which is why I’ve been trying to outsource my vote.
I’ll give you a response. I was worried you would tunnel me, but that’s not why I started TR’ing you. I felt your sharp worded criticisms were somewhat harsh, but I didn’t think you were fabricating anything, and I felt your conviction and focus made it more likely that you were Town. I’ve said this before and you can go find it - my biggest strength as a Town player is not getting executed. I never have, actually, on this forum. In 31 completed games (actually, maybe I got executed in ELo once in what is honestly a complete miscalculation). I even escaped a fake cop guilty. I don’t have thousands of games but I don’t like playing more than 1 game at a time. In any event, if I couldn’t contribute with a solve from being permanently behind, I was going to try to demonstrate my Towniness and give honest takes in real time. I think that being Scum in the situation you raised, I would have maintained my view that you were Scum but still disengaged. So it’s going to be up to you if you believe what I’m saying when I haven’t really given you a reason to.
In post 3094, Prism wrote:
There was zero appetite for voting you yesterday apart from one or two off-handed suggestions from gob.
Camel had 2 extremely vocal players aggressively pushing him with another strong widely townread voice in Firebringer.
The only scumteam that has you leave over camel is the one where no one on the team knows how to count.
I disagree slightly, in that I think I’m a much weaker Scum than Camel seems to be. Otherwise, with all that pressure, they would have been executed. They managed to avoid that. I would have pushed to escape pretty hard only because I would be even less likely to write anything here and would get executed because I haven’t said anything.
But I get the point - have the one player actually being suspected get out of the game, regardless of what that means for the rest of the team. I would just argue that if I was Scum, my escape leaves you with a lot less to work with.
I don’t think your interpretation is crazy or anything. I’m trying to give you my perspective. But if you need to see me flip to believe it, so be it.
In post 3085, Prism wrote:
I hunted down all of the times Andres called a player obnoxious to see how he reads it. It's not clear. Usually it's in the context of bad mechanical advocacy and wider leadership. For interpersonal scrutiny, once he found the same sort of abrasion & condescension scummy and had it reinforced via flip. It's difficult to confidently evaluate these across contexts.
I think if I had to guess - I’m more likely to call Town obnoxious than Scum. Except when I was calling NPOM obnoxious in the first game I played on this forum - they were Scum and just trying to get under my nerves. I remember that well.
The Deathtunnel Archon Shirou without any of his aggro or hyperposting powers.
