open 894: near vanilla (game over)

[Bellaphant]

Also, sepertse but related, both k and proj talk a lot about the negatives ,, the reasons to sr people, rather than questions/sorting? Playstyle, but I struggle

[Aisa]

Dann, you've picked on a few players so far for being "performative", in the sense of narrating their thought process out loud to seem town. Do you think narrating your thought process is always scummy / worth a vote on Day 1?

(and aisa )

:')

[Aisa]

Also, sepertse but related, both k and proj talk a lot about the negatives ,, the reasons to sr people, rather than questions/sorting? Playstyle, but I struggle

If K could actually be a bit more negative that would be like a dream come true for me

[ProjEctRy]

Also, sepertse but related, both k and proj talk a lot about the negatives ,, the reasons to sr people, rather than questions/sorting? Playstyle, but I struggle

I don't understand the issue with this.

Firstly, what is the issue with talking about the negatives - the reasons to sr people? Isn't discussing the reasons to sr people scum hunting? The 'negatives' are what I don't like about peoples comments or actions. Genuinely, how do I determine who is scum without discussing the reasons why I think they're scum?

Secondly, I disagree that I do that instead of asking questions / sorting. I've asked a lot of questions (whether you believe the questions to be good or bad is a different matter). My questions generally are to other people - how did you reach this conclusion - why did you think this etc. Those questions assist my understanding of other peoples motivations, which helps me determine who I believe to be town or scum.

[Aisa]

Projectry, I'm interested in your response to Titus's latest posting

[ProjEctRy]

There are two major assumptions in your thinking.

1) All people are convinced in the same way. Maybe a case convinces you but others like to find the answers themselves. There is no universal convincing case.

2) Lawyers making a case is different here. However, I play more like a judge rather than a lawyer. I listen for the facts and make a ruling. Either a mod pronouncement or something radical is needed once a read is hard.

I used to play more like a stubborn advocate but that made me more heated and less effective. Sometimes I fall but I try not to.

Regardless of assumptions as to how people play, your own admission of your play style validates (in my mind) my concerns. You have played the exact opposite as to how you describe approaching the game.

I don't believe you are trying to 'find the answer' yourself. You have tunnelled the entire game based upon an unjustified theory. You've also explained that your profession 'fuels your thinking' and that you 'listen to the facts and make a ruling', however in my opinion this is not how you are playing. You theory of Kurtapika and T3 is based off of 'gut feelings' and lacks any justification. Listening to the facts and forming a judgement is in contradiction to theories supported by 'gut feeling'. If you are listening to the facts and making a ruling, you should be able to point to specific things that lead you to conclude they are scum.

As for my read on K, it would not be more substantial with more words. You could write a wall on my posts allegedly having no depth but the more words you use, the more you undermine.

My case on K is the same. It's about awkward speech and the absence of logical follow through with T3. I'll spoiler a longer case tmo for you.

As for T3 you will get more comfortable about reading teams when you play more. K is treating T3 like a partner and my secret read is treating K like I would if I was scum with K.

I think this is missing the point, it's not about 'more words'. Its about providing an actual explanation, outside of gut feelings, to support your theory.

In regards to K's 'awkward speech', I've not necessarily seen this myself, although as noted I'm planning to do an ISO on him to consider him further to see what, if anything, I'm missing. But, even so your suspicion of awkward speech was mentioned very early and I've not seen you point to further examples of this.

Regarding K allegedly treating T3 like a partner, yes I will get more experienced at identifying this as I play, but I don't think there is anything to this in this situation. Your concern would be applicable too many different players, including yourself.

Your response hasn't really satisfied my concerns. I need to go back and review my thoughts on Sky, then I'm going to decide whether I'm going to switch my vote.

[Titus]

Project, I said that I would spoiler a case today so of course my response wasn't a case.

My initial read was weak, however I played in the background just listening. My ruling is K + T3 plus a third. Could it be wrong? Of course, but I'd need a flip to change my mind. I'll deliberately be holding back by analysis on the third, even in my thinking.

[ProjEctRy]

Project, I said that I would spoiler a case today so of course my response wasn't a case.

My initial read was weak, however I played in the background just listening. My ruling is K + T3 plus a third. Could it be wrong? Of course, but I'd need a flip to change my mind. I'll deliberately be holding back by analysis on the third, even in my thinking.

No of course. Im busy tonight so I wasn’t going to be considering the game further until tomorrow so I was expecting you’d have responded by the time I went back to review my vote on Sky. I should have specified.

[Dannflor]

aisa is there a reason you unvoted

said you wanted to explore other options

and then didn't vote anyone else

[Skygazer]

ufh my head hurts

[Aisa]

aisa is there a reason you unvoted

said you wanted to explore other options

and then didn't vote anyone else

I unvoted because I wanted to give myself a little time to think without contributing to end the day
As part of my thinking I did want to have a think about other possible votes, but I got a bit bored and logged off before I decided my next push

[Dannflor]

Dann, you've picked on a few players so far for being "performative", in the sense of narrating their thought process out loud to seem town. Do you think narrating your thought process is always scummy / worth a vote on Day 1?

(and aisa )

:')

no

I take people's personalities into account

it's not being performative by itself there are very specific ways in which scum are more likely to word their posts that also happen to be performative

[Dannflor]

I'm pretty uneasy about the dead gamestate with no counter wagon

it makes me think kurtapika is either a miselimination or scum is currently hard bussing him

[Dannflor]

I kind of want to go back to T3

I pretty much only moved off of him on the condition that pressure on a V/LA slot wasn't doing anything and eventually he'd come back

but he has not

I don't really want to let him just lurk the day phase out

[Dannflor]

VOTE: T3

Titus would you be able to agree to this?

[Aisa]

I think one of the reasons I got bored is that I wanted to look into Black vs Afrayed but they're both V/LA so I can't talk to them so I got a bit demotivated. Then I tried to look into the whole discussion on Skygazer but it was just a bunch of people discussing whether Sky lurking was AI and for whatever reason that also failed to sustain my interest

Unrelated, I've decided Projectry's 878 was a very towny reaction

[OutWorldER]

I'm pretty uneasy about the dead gamestate with no counter wagon

it makes me think kurtapika is either a miselimination or scum is currently hard bussing him

I'm not sure about the hard bus theory right now because two votes (Yours and Titus) don't feel like could be bussing mafia. Bellaphant, maybe. Aisa's vote also doesn't seem great, but she's seemed fairly townie all game. So I don't think it's a hard bus unless the scum team is exactly Kurta/Aisa/Bella.

Related to the gamestate observation, I also get like, this very strange sense that the game is weirdly divided into separate pods. Like there's 3 or so different games going on at once in the same thread. The last vote count with 5 single vote wagons contributes to this feeling.

[Dannflor]

I also believe kurtapika is largely a town driven wagon

Which makes the non existence of a counter wagon pretty weird

The nearest we’ve come is skygazer

[T3]

WHAT'S UP

I am ready to catch up and become a mafia weapon

[Aisa]

T3 is not a bad vote based on his content so far. Obviously the glaring thing is there has not been much content so far

I promise I will be useful again tomorrow

[T3]

Spoiler: Some stuff up to page 10

UNVOTE: Kurtapika

Im new to the game so struggling to get involved, but whilst weak my initial suspicions would be for T3.

I’ve found his posts to be the most defensive. Particularly 39.

I also don’t like 63. I don’t like that he answered for Asia, whilst saying not to answer for her. Asia has been prodding slightly at T3 and I’m conscious whether answering for her was almost doing her a favour to get her off his back. Almost a ‘look im on your side’.

This read could be completely off, but I’d be curious to know peoples thoughts.

I feel Kurtapika is awkward and distant.

Don't like how Titus responded to Project here when Project didn't mention Kurpitaka at all, feels like she's trying to convince him.

Mainly vibes tbh, it's page one.

I can't argue with vibes but I'm a little surprised your vibe-o-meter picked up on that post and not the several other jokes on that page

Weird shade

VOTE: t3

Why is T3 scum fypov?

I am voting T3 because aside from their initial light push on Bellaphant, there isn't much content in his 24 or so posts.

I feel that T3's primary motivation in this game thus far has been to get people to town read him rather than to find scum or even genuinely push the game forward.

• I dislike that T3 immediately undercuts the strength of his push on Bellaphant with 38 and calling it "weakly scummy" in 45.
  
• Aside from that one read, T3 hasn't put forth a single other stance or thought about the game in terms of people's alignments.
  
• Instead, his posts consist entirely of questions (that haven't gone anywhere yet) or explain-y self-defense posts.

For these reasons it feels like T3's start to the game has been more performative than not and I would think town!T3 would have outed some more reads by this point in the game with how clearly active he's been.

That's fair-ish? In my recent scumgames I've been pushing players a lot more than I used to, in my last scumgame I directed 3 mislims. As town I say I'd probably provide more passive commentary - in fact did you not literally just mod Secrets of the Anukat Topaz, where all I did the entire game was provide passive commentary aside from the fact that I pushed camel.

was reading this post and i went. wow :O this is exactly what i THOUGHT but i couldn't put it into words and here it is!!! i don't townread t3 much but this is kind of what i meant by talking about motivation and whatnot earlier. t3 wants to start talking because they: (choose one or the other) feel pressure to solve as town / feel pressure to be townread as scum. they push bella because they: think this post from bella is a bit off / want to make an opportunistic push
okay this doesn't make sense but i guess what the slashes indicate are that these are different motivations for town/scum respectively. i guess what i'm trying to articulate that there's two different worlds (and while there may be many more reasons!) and to me i think both make sense! it's just that i think i sliightly? favor the town world over the scum world in likeliness.
i don't think the push is articulated well. i now understand that maybe bella's "oh i have a townread!" post doesn't do much to start discussion and can thus be seen as scummy, but t3's push at the time seemed a tad bit reachy even if they seemed genuine about it. i think that scum t3 is likely, but town t3 is more likely because imho scum has no reason to be going around and picking fights, especially not when the game has just started. if i were in t3's position (assuming town bella scum t3) i would've just not posted that at all LOL. sure, t3 could've done all of that just to get a roundabout town read but honestly wifom is lame occam's razor for the win and what is simplest is that (at least in theory) scum wants to be present but not contentious, they want to be townread and i don't think scum t3 goes into this knowing it will get them widely scumread.
sorry this is a bit sheepy i think but wow reading that post was kind of like. in the nicest way possible it's kinda like a gateway drug i read it and i was like. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IVE BEEN THHINKING. gently mindmelds(correct word??? idk) at you

Jupiter is town 100% for this, I would be very surprised if this is in their scumrange at all.

I think T3 is capable of sparking discussion much more concretely and usefully as town which is why his claim of wanting to spark discussion reads as performative to me

Again, did you not just mod Secrets of the Aunkat Topaz?

Eh, I just really dislike the directions of their posts: it's very negative and feels quite agenda driven.

Negative is just a personality trait of his I'd say, I'm not seeing the agenda driven part but I remember in Backup6 I scumread town!Dannflor mainly because I thought that there was no way he actually believed the stuff he was saying.

honestly it's pretty interesting considering how you view them as performative- could you explain more on that point? i think their straightforwardness reads as a bit more genuine to me imo. the lack of content is actually a bit of a red flag that i hadn't exactly noticed, though i suppose it could be excused by the fact that people have generally been pushing them for a handful of pages and maybe this is to be expected?

it can mostly be distilled to the fact that T3's espoused motivation for his opening posts was to "spark discussion," presumably to get the game going and find scum

basically all of his posts after that point was focused on self defense or other contentless questioning

I think T3 is capable of sparking discussion much more concretely and usefully as town which is why his claim of wanting to spark discussion reads as performative to me

I like this case and I'd be interested to see what T3 has to say about it
Alternatively if replying directly to Dann's case is boring I'd be interested in T3's reads so far

VOTE: T3 why not

At that time I was thinking about a scumread on Black and a scumread on Aisa. I didn't have any townreads, although Ower was kinda lean town. I'm townreading Ower a bit more now after my mindmeld with him in 211. Titus is also scummy

[Titus]

Things on K.

60 "My feeling is that Bella's lack of disclosure on the tr itself after being challenged reads as scum." This is overly formal and reads like a lawyer writing it. If it read naturally, then it would say something like "Bella not disclosing the TR is scummy.". The rest of the post is particularly hard to understand but largely states that Bella's postings are ambiguous which is not the gist I see at all.162 Copies defense from Black. 335 Lim the no posters = avoid conflict 339 All votes are random. Town should post content. Many words. Pointless message. 566 "Curious if you'd be able to walk me through the thought process in scum chat that you would guess as theoretically having happened for me to suggest this move." - Guessing the thought process is something easily handwaved. IT's what could happen and it's why proof beyond a reasonable doubt isn't really a thing in mafia.

Also the feeling of being

forced

to find a read outside of current TRs is bad. If his scumreads were genuinely townread, he should say so. However his goal is to survive, so he can't go there.

My largest reservation is that perhaps English isn't K's first language.

[Titus]

VOTE: T3

Titus would you be able to agree to this?

I would but I'm not going to dismantle the K wagon for it.

[Titus]

I also believe kurtapika is largely a town driven wagon

Which makes the non existence of a counter wagon pretty weird

The nearest we’ve come is skygazer

T3 has been vla and the third won't use their limited cache to create a counter. They've played passively with their vote to try and get a counter going to no avail.

[schadd_]

;