Open 898: Don't Fall In The Volcano! | Game Over!

[Klick]

VOTE: Black

I spent the first three minutes of noticing the thread was open trying to think of some sort of witty RVS commentary, but this is all I've got.

[Klick]

Do you guys purposely not play together or something?

We try not to, yeah. Mostly on my part. I'm uncomfortable with the potential for IRL tells unintentionally influencing my play. It's manageable up to a point, but when you live your life around someone and know them really well, it's difficult to avoid, for me at least. So I'd rather avoid the issue entirely.

Besides, she's too good at reading me

[Klick]

VOTE: Black

Do votes during this day actually matter?

I believe they matter a decent amount. Why do you think they don't?

[Klick]

What kind of experience with social deduction games do you have? (@Neko)

PEdit: Bella and I hydra'd in Cosmos a while ago. Good fun. It was one of the only things that would get her to play a Large Theme

[Klick]

I'll be on for a while tonight, Bella and the kids are at grandparents'. I'm feeling chill, want to do some lo-fi hip-hop scumhunting.

PEdit: hiya Skya

[Klick]

de70 town

VOTE: klick hi

Thank you, I was beginning to feel ignored

Were you expecting me to respond to anything in particular?

[Klick]

@Klick Tos1, Tos2, Untrusted, First Class Trouble, etc etc

Cool. Makes sense that you'd not expect D1 votes to matter much then.

MS mafia games care about D1 more than most social deduction games. We put quite a bit of stake in the ability to sort alignment through behaviour, even early on. Consequently, our games don't tend to rely on Night Actions to solve the game as much as other sites, preferring to solve through mostly behaviour instead.

[Klick]

Klick is town btw

I'll return the favor, you seem towny here so far

Why's Neko town?

[Klick]

Are you unsure of how to approach reading me, Black?

[Klick]

UNVOTE: Black

Just because I don't want to bandwagon someone D1 without knowing much

@Sky is your theory that it's Black and Neko, and Black coached Neko into unvoting her?

[Klick]

Fair. I think my play has been pretty neutral so far on the surface

I've recently gotten into poker and am trying to incorporate a little bit of what I've learned so far into my play

[Klick]

You should explore the Skygazer gut townread more if you think you can @Black

[Klick]

I unvoted black simply because it seems foolish to eliminate someone D1

The question of whether or not to eliminate D1 comes up often amongst players from other sites and has sometimes been a bit of a hot topic.

I'm willing to discuss the question in detail with you if that's something you're interested in

But generally, the consensus amongst players on MS is that eliminating D1 is better for villagers than not-eliminating. The Villagers only have so many chances to eliminate Mafia, and no-eliminating D1 wastes one of those shots.

[Klick]

Sky are you talking about 13? I thought this was a townslip until I realized the sample PM's are in the setup post

I think you're probably right that this is what Sky was referring to

[Klick]

I unvoted black simply because it seems foolish to eliminate someone D1

The question of whether or not to eliminate D1 comes up often amongst players from other sites and has sometimes been a bit of a hot topic.

I'm willing to discuss the question in detail with you if that's something you're interested in

But generally, the consensus amongst players on MS is that eliminating D1 is better for villagers than not-eliminating. The Villagers only have so many chances to eliminate Mafia, and no-eliminating D1 wastes one of those shots.

True, but I think i'm inexperienced enough to be following a bandwagon Day 1

Don't worry about rushing it too much. Take your time to get your bearings. This day will be determined by people making reads on each other based on how people are talking. If you feel like someone is Mafia or Villager, feel free to say so. I think everyone in the game with us knows your experience level with this kind of play and will keep it in mind when you post.

The best thing you can do to help others atm is give your opinions on whether people are town or scum, even if it's just a gut feeling.

[Klick]

My gut feeling is that sky is mafia; because he thinks me unvoting is scum when I didn't want to bandwagon someone within an hour or two of joining the game

Seems like an easy way to push a noob off if you ask me

I wouldn't be surprised if Skygazer's reasoning for voting you was a bit less straightforward than they stated.

Is there anyone in particular who you feel is unlikely to be Mafia?

[Klick]

I do think it's strange that sky thought I was scum because I seemed confused about her Dragon TR. I'm not sure why she wouldn't just say right then that she thought 13 was a townslip

Putting me at e-1 and keeping it there after I pointed it out doesn't feel great either

i felt like DE70's townslip was kind of obvious and i felt like the fact that you hadn't picked up on it was scum indicative. i didn't realize it was e1 but i wasnt too bothered by it either tbh.

My first thought upon seeing it was that it was in 'possibly intentional' territory

[Klick]

I do think it's strange that sky thought I was scum because I seemed confused about her Dragon TR. I'm not sure why she wouldn't just say right then that she thought 13 was a townslip

Putting me at e-1 and keeping it there after I pointed it out doesn't feel great either

i felt like DE70's townslip was kind of obvious and i felt like the fact that you hadn't picked up on it was scum indicative. i didn't realize it was e1 but i wasnt too bothered by it either tbh.

My first thought upon seeing it was that it was in 'possibly intentional' territory

I do think it's strange that sky thought I was scum because I seemed confused about her Dragon TR. I'm not sure why she wouldn't just say right then that she thought 13 was a townslip

Putting me at e-1 and keeping it there after I pointed it out doesn't feel great either

i felt like DE70's townslip was kind of obvious and i felt like the fact that you hadn't picked up on it was scum indicative. i didn't realize it was e1 but i wasnt too bothered by it either tbh.

My first thought upon seeing it was that it was in 'possibly intentional' territory

Same

I just wanna say that Aureal is a freaking QUEEN for making this game

I mean my role is a freaking gladiator!

This pinged the fuck out of me. I typed up a reply with a vote but then thought I better check the vote count. Since he's E-2 already I'm holding off for now.

Was this just the town way to read that post then

[Klick]

I think Neko's pretty solidly town with his latest posts

[Klick]

VOTE: Dannflor
OMGUS

[Klick]

DragonEater even more town

[Klick]

VOTE: klick

Black town

Vote your scum buddy with me Clap

This is very transparently Black's scum partner

[Klick]

DragonEater even more town

Read on Black?

I'm not really swayed by your case on Black but regardless I think Black!scum is pretty plausible atp
She needs to start towning yesterday

[Klick]

VOTE: Klick

184 reminds me of a recent Klick scumgame where he made a similar non-committal, half-shade comment about me:

I'm fairly happy with the Black wagon, I think there's potential for scum there but I don't really want to add momentum to it atm

At least you have a reason

That link was me trying to imitate what my take on you would be if I were town
Looks like I did it well!

[Klick]

VOTE: Black

On what basis? Do you actually think I was fishing for a townread? The townread was already implied...how does it benefit me to get him to say it if I'm scum?

It's not that. You're tossing out weak, rebuttable town reads and you're omgussy. Would give examples but I'm on my phone.

why didn’t you vote klick

...I quite like this actually

[Klick]

If I run with all the easy reads the PoE I get atm is {FakeGod, Black, Claptastik, Titus}

Which feels reasonable

[Klick]

Process of Elimination

That group of four is the group of players I think the Mafia is more likely to be in

[Klick]

DragonEater even more town

Read on Black?

I'm not really swayed by your case on Black but regardless I think Black!scum is pretty plausible atp
She needs to start towning yesterday

VOTE: klick

Black town

Vote your scum buddy with me Clap

This is very transparently Black's scum partner

I'm not fully getting this

Do you think she's scum? If not, why the exclamation point? If yes, why do you disagree (?) with my case?

'Do you think X is scum' is more broad than a yes-or-no question. I think Black has pretty decent scum equity. Surely you get that, as the person who was talking all about the percentage odds of Black being scum earlier? My thoughts on Black aren't very solidified. I think Black is within both her ranges right now, from my perception.

The was because I also had Black/Dann as a pet theory in my head at the time. It was highly speculative and held little weight, which is why I was fine being really vague about it.

I just don't think the reasons you laid out for Black!scum really coincide with things that would make her scum. I don't disagree with the direction atm, and I don't feel like going into the details of your reasoning is that productive a use of my time and posts.

[Klick]

VOTE: Black

On what basis? Do you actually think I was fishing for a townread? The townread was already implied...how does it benefit me to get him to say it if I'm scum?

It's not that. You're tossing out weak, rebuttable town reads and you're omgussy. Would give examples but I'm on my phone.

why didn’t you vote klick

...I quite like this actually

Huh???

I think Dannflor's perception of me is that I am also tossing out weak, rebuttable town reads and I'm omgussy. Which means it's odd that Claptastik didn't find me suspicious on those grounds.

[Klick]

Why not? It's pretty obvious vote from my pov after eliminating sky and you from execute pool, and neko's obvtown.

Heck, his poe list (203) is literally two guys voting him, one person who said he'd vote him, and a person who's not here.

It looks like someone who's trying hard not to leave a paper trail.

Not my fault you're not town mate

'People voting me or talking about voting me' is a large pool for you to pretend it's significant

[Klick]

RE: percentages - yes, of course.

What I meant is do you think Black has like, 30%, 50%, or 70% to be scum (as an example)?

RE exclam - okay makes sense, so you were basically mindmelding and wanted to point it out.

Last paragraph - sure. Then what do you scumread her for?

I don't like the percentage question on principle, but that's just me being an ass and I'll go with it. I'm at probably 40%ish scum on Black. That's not really due to much on Black's part at this point, as much as other players are just townier. Like I said in the last post, my thoughts on Black aren't well-defined and she's in the PoE largely based on not yet being towny.

[Klick]

I feel like I'm close to having enough information to try to infer some sort of solve but I'm not quite there yet.

I'm fairly happy with most of my townreads (specifically DragonEater, Neko, Skygazer).

[Klick]

Honestly I have no comment for any of this but i am present

This guy's screaming newbtown all along. If he's scum, kudos!

I agree with this

[Klick]

VOTE: Black

I don't feel certain about Claptastik yet but I'm pretty happy with this as the game-running narrative

[Klick]

What is "game-running narrative"?

I like that you and Claptastik have voices and I want to add weight to them especially since I don't have particular feelings towards Black!town

[Klick]

VOTE: Black

I don't feel certain about Claptastik yet but I'm pretty happy with this as the game-running narrative

This vote is awful btw

This commentary is awful btw

[Klick]

Black how about instead of admiring the coolness of the use of BBCode inside quotes, you give me a rundown of who do ypu actually TR right now and why? I'm specifically interested to know who you TR out of the people on your wagon.

I thin you and Neko are the most likely to be town

I think there's one scum in Clap/Klick. Most likely Klick. Not sure if they are partnered but I'm worried about it. I'm not sure if partners would vote together like this

Dragon why is Klick your top townread?

After our conversation earlier about how you weren't sure how to read me, I'm far from convinced you have as strong feelings about me being scum as are conveyed in your recent posts

I find it more likely you're pushing this harder in direct response to the pressure on you

[Klick]

Honestly my feeling is that you and black are both town and its just you two being extra picky over each other; the E-1 on page 2 seemed very random, and I have a feeling would've been hammered without much info if I didn't Unvote. I think sky is also another case of aggressive townie, my gut feeling right now is saying that titus and maybe klick is scum; Dannflor doesn't really rub off as scum but i haven't had the chance to really interact with them to be fair

Yea considering everything I'm now starting to feel like black is scum

VOTE: Black

That should be black E-1

I'm having a hard time believing this progression. I don't think anything Clap said should convince anyone that I'm scum, and if you think Klick is likely scum then it makes me wonder why you decided to join the wagon he's on instead of questioning "hmm could this be a mislim?"

Honestly at this point I'm going mentally back and forth and I've realized I've dug myself into a very deep mental game I wasn't expecting

Welcome to the asylum, enjoy your stay

[Klick]

I'm the type of player that doesn't respond well to pressure. I get focused on everyone's shitty scumreads on me and it derails the game and it's not fun for anyone

Somewhat same
I've been working on my responses to pressure, but my buttons can be pushed the wrong way

[Klick]

and I am going to make your life hard, intentionally

Like what the fuck is this? You don't want to sort me. You just want to be right about me so you can say "OoO I caught scum Black!!11!!"

I'M TOWN

If you're town I'm the wrong person to counter-push. I somewhat understand your concerns about my vote on you, but I feel that most of the votes on me have been just as lazy, and the difference is just that the vote is on you instead of me.

We're in similar spots if you're town. If that's the case then I think the scum are more likely to be in the quieter crowd.

[Klick]

Black how about instead of admiring the coolness of the use of BBCode inside quotes, you give me a rundown of who do ypu actually TR right now and why? I'm specifically interested to know who you TR out of the people on your wagon.

I thin you and Neko are the most likely to be town

I think there's one scum in Clap/Klick. Most likely Klick. Not sure if they are partnered but I'm worried about it. I'm not sure if partners would vote together like this

Dragon why is Klick your top townread?

After our conversation earlier about how you weren't sure how to read me, I'm far from convinced you have as strong feelings about me being scum as are conveyed in your recent posts

I find it more likely you're pushing this harder in direct response to the pressure on you

Why are you assuming I have strong feelings about you being scum? I think you're the most likely to be scum here but that doesn't mean the feelings are strong. This just feels like shade. Town!you would more than likely ask me how strong my feelings are instead of just jumping to conclusions to make me look worse

Why are you assuming I think you have *strong* feelings about me being scum? I think the urgency you're conveying in your posts about the potential of me being scum is strong relative to how much evidence you seem to be working with.

...or we could avoid the semantic argument and talk about more important things.

I don't think your vote on me holds water. I think it's there because you're feeling defensive and want a plausible counterwagon. What I want to discern is whether that's town defensive or scum defensive.

If you're town, I want to get somewhere with you beyond vague baseline paranoia.

[Klick]

Klick's townplay is generally very good and I'm legitimately shocked he agrees with some of the reasons being presented against me, so I think it's more likely he's just scum going along with the easy counterwagon

I agree with zero of the reasons but I don't think that means you're town

[Klick]

Like I think town!Klick sees poor reasons being used to push someone and he questions them. Instead he is just blindly following them. It doesn't track with how I would expect Klick to sort here

This is an inaccurate read
I do not have patience to whack away at weeds
I will settle for a pretty garden

[Klick]

Klick's townplay is generally very good and I'm legitimately shocked he agrees with some of the reasons being presented against me, so I think it's more likely he's just scum going along with the easy counterwagon

I agree with zero of the reasons but I don't think that means you're town

???

So you see people casing me for like 10 reasons that you don't agree with and you have no reaction to it at all?

Yeah basically
I don't expect DragonEater or Claptastik or like most people to make cases that hold high accuracy

[Klick]

I think Black is more likely to be town right now. I dont have a lock read yet but im confident i can get a very confident read there given enough time

I have an extremely good record of reading Black and if people can find me as town it would be cool if people trusted that

Dragon I believe it’s obvious he wants to catch scum!black and will do so by tunneling her regardless of her alignment so he can say he caught her

UNVOTE:
I'll take this. I'm not really 100% here atm but I'm willing to have a look at what you mean with Clap later

[Klick]

VOTE: Klick

Kinda think Clap is just a bad/stubborn townie

Tin foil read that Klick/Dann is the solve so I want to go back here

This is probably your towniest post so far lol

[Klick]

What if this game is actually just really easy

[Klick]

I think this argument is +town for both of you

[Klick]

It's only an option if people like you let them get away with it.

You're implying here that you don't think it's normal for townies to change their reads as new developments happen, which is a really weird opinion to have

You wouldn't think this was a weird opinion to have if you were on the site 5ish years ago. Reads being fluid and subject to change easily and people just accepting that is a pretty recent update to our meta.

[Klick]

VOTE: FakeGod

[Klick]

VOTE: FakeGod

whats the incentive to vote FakeGod here?

In short, I'm not convinced that FakeGod is solving instead of just posting enough out in the open designed to look plausible enough to get by atm

[Klick]

Just got off work, I'm exhausted, I've skimmed everything and will give proper responses to the backlog when I'm more alive. But I'm alright to give front-of-the-mind thoughts

The topic I'm most interested in right now is the pressure from FakeGod on me for the Black E-1, and Kawaii's interest in it. If anyone wants to have a dialogue about that atm I'm present for it

In very brief: I was vaguely aware that Black was at E-1. I didn't care that much about it. In the very early stages of the game I find that sort of stuff somewhat amusing. If people want to do crazy stuff early on, that's their prerogative. Ultimately there's stuff to read into that sort of play. The E-1 contributed to us progressing the thread in a healthy way.

tl;dr risk-averse play during RVS is for losers.

[Klick]

KawaiiKame posted something about my read on FakeGod not making sense to them

I acknowledge that FakeGod had some content in their ISO that looked like solving on the surface
My point was rather that the content itself felt forced, felt like it was driven by what FakeGod wanted to push into the thread rather than what FakeGod thought. It felt like the purpose of their posting was to look a certain way, as opposed to just solving. And that bothered me.

Their posting still feels this way to me, and it feels like more than just a playstyle issue.

@KawaiiKame: If you didn't get my reasoning on FakeGod, what did you think of Black seeing my reasoning and going 'oh yeah, I was thinking that as well'? I took that as validation that what I was seeing had tangibility, which is why I'm confused that you've not said anything about it

[Klick]

During my lunch break I skimmed and thought Kawaii looked towny. I'm not really in a place to try to validate that thought atm tho

[Klick]

If I get heat for it, then so be it.

But it's anti-town and I'm calling it out.

I give this a resounding 'meh'
I'm having fun

[Klick]

it's bugging me that black made no indication she knew about the gladiator thing until it was heavily hinted at, so maybe she is just scum here

I think Sky's mind is still here
because Sky actually cares about this
because Sky believes in the argument they were making
because Sky is town

[Klick]

Like I think scum!Sky moves on from this when they realise that no one cares about it at the same level they do
It's no longer relevant in the thread narrative

[Klick]

kawaii is just asking a lot of nothing questions and kind of commentating the game

i don't super feel they are invested in finding scum

They do that as town

I concur, I think it's playstyle

My source is this game

[Klick]

I feel like the reads in this game have splintered all over the place over the last few pages. It feels unnatural and is probably caused at least in part by scum

[Klick]

kawaii is just asking a lot of nothing questions and kind of commentating the game

i don't super feel they are invested in finding scum

They do that as town

I concur, I think it's playstyle

My source is this game

What is your read on Dannflor?

I lean town
His approach feels very naturally similar to this game
I like his progression on me and him using his weight to project a townread on you
It feels like he cares about that for town reasons and not scum-trying-to-get-townread reasons

It's not solid, he obviously understands optics well, but I think he's +town atm and don't want him gone today at all

[Klick]

do either of you specifically town read kawaii or do you just believe that isn't a reason to scum read them

I want to look more closely at Kawaii and Claptastik, I feel like those are the two reads I'm slacking on atm
I thought Kawaii was town earlier but I'd have to recontextualise to put together why

[Klick]

I don't know with Klick I like instantly felt that something was off about how he was posting

he did later say that he was trying to incorporate elements of poker or something into his gameplay which i thought maybe explained the difference and he was intentionally trying to play more reserved

but idk at this point i am leaning back towards klick mimicking his town game as opposed to actually being town.

Boooo

[Klick]

Here is something that is bothering me Dann

I think Black's expressed paranoia of the two of us looks rather towny

I also think that positioning to want either you or me out today is exactly what Black would want to be doing if she were scum here

Can you help me alleviate my cognitive dissonance there, because I both see Black!town and think this is too good for Black!scum

[Klick]

Black I'm pretty sure is town

Like this is also my initial thought at this point in progression but I want you to insist that this is correct again so I can just say okay

[Klick]

yeah 504 seemed off to me too, and i'm skeptical that klick townreads me here. the reasoning for the townread feels like a reach too

Who are you saying this to, and why do you think it's a reach?

I don't think I'd want to drop a flat townread on your slot if you're town and I were scum, frankly

[Klick]

Is the reason that you're skeptical I townread you related to me generally expressing that I find you hard to read in the past?

I am also surprised that I just believe you're town here, but I feel like I can clearly see your progression of thought and I believe in it

[Klick]

Currently I have black, neko, de70, and you north of null
skygazer null
fakegod, kawaii - scum pool

Am I actually just that close to a solve I'm happy with

[Klick]

That's very close to where I am atm

Basic map of my reads is

{Neko, Skygazer, DragonEater} - town
{Dann, Black} - leaning town
{Claptastik, Kawaii} - mixed, want to look closer
{FakeGod} - scummy

Which is really simple if my townreads are just correct and none of them actually feel that wrong

[Klick]

Meh

I promise I'll read everything that transpired since my fight with Black at SOME point, but I am not sure it will be today because like Black I also got a job recently and have less time for mafia during the day.

And I already have plans for this evening.

I am still anti-voting Klick and will continue to do so until I see a good case against him (which I haven't seen yet. 504 is a pretty NAI post).

Also if Klick is Dann's partner we should vote Dann.

Maybe dragon is scum

I don't see who Dragon is scum with in this scenario though
Like in a vacuum I can see why 579 looks scummy. But most variations of scum!Dragon should be pretty satisfied with the game narrative and not have a huge reason to draw attention peddling the Klick/Dann theory

If it were like Dragon/FakeGod, then I'm not sure why Dragon is putting pressure on us just as FakeGod has removed his vote on me. It's discordant
It's weird from a Dragon/Clap team as well

I could maaaaybe see Dragon/Kawaii coordinating in this way?

[Klick]

i didn't explain forever mostly just because i was annoyed by your posting and wanted to annoy you back

i am very mature

I find it hilarious how similar we seem to be

[Klick]

I think if we yeet {FakeGod, Claptastik, KawaiiKame} into the sun the game will end fwiw

[Klick]

i keep coming back to how strange of a post 577 is

Yeah I'm not familiar with kawaii efforting this hard. It kinda feels like he's artificially trying to town it up

Which would make sense if his team is in a bad spot

[Klick]

Is FakeGod trying to bait me into an argument about anti-town play lmao

[Klick]

I think klick is approaching this in a way that doesn’t optically make him look very good

Clap intentionally is

Rereading, and this post cracked me up. This site is like mafia bizarro world or something.

I don't understand why you find this odd

He's basically saying that he believes you're trying too hard to avoid getting scumread

[Klick]

It's about the level of effort and intention you're putting into it

Scum care about looking like town slightly more than town do

[Klick]

It's about the level of effort and intention you're putting into it

Scum care about looking like town slightly more than town do

Yes, I'm intentionally putting effort into scum hunting. And here, that's scummy. IOW this is bizarro world.

BTW, I'm not implying anything scummy about dann with this point. It's just an interesting (to me at least) observation by a relative outsider looking in. I sometimes get the feeling that the people here have been playing together for so long, and therefore wifoming each other for so long, that some conventional wisdom regarding mafia has been turned upside down.

I think I disagree with the overall point but I also don't necessarily agree with Dann's argument atm

[Klick]

I think klick is approaching this in a way that doesn’t optically make him look very good

Clap intentionally is

Rereading, and this post cracked me up. This site is like mafia bizarro world or something.

I don't understand why you find this odd

He's basically saying that he believes you're trying too hard to avoid getting scumread

What is your read on Neko?

Kinda want you to go into detail about it if you can

And I also want to go into detail on it and look closer

That's why I haven't done it yet, I need to be home and in the right headspace to stare at this for long enough to do that

[Klick]

Right. Time to solve.

I'm feeling really low energy but I'm hoping I can just sit down and get in the zone

[Klick]

I'm going to start with things that I feel rather confident about atm and want to reaffirm

I think DragonEater and Skygazer are top town and I don't think reevaluating there is productive at all
I'm also going to be writing off Dann and Black for the day - I feel there's stuff there from both of them that feels towny, and while I think they're both strong scum players who could have me feeling this way in the current position as scum, I think we benefit from assuming both of them are town for the moment

Leaving {Neko, Claptastik, Kawaii, FakeGod}

I have felt that Neko is town but that has been vague and past its expiry date so it's due a more concrete examination
I think if Clap is scum here he is playing a pretty solid game, but I think a more critical look is in order
I can't quite identify why I gut townread Kawaii's early approach, and with limited options I lean towards that read just being inaccurate and scum being here
I have looked at FakeGod's ISO for quite a while previously and frankly don't see much of a reason to remove them from the PoE at all, but I'm open to the possibility that they just aren't towntelling in a way that I can pick up on

There's my baseline before starting

[Klick]

My only prior experience with Kawaii was in Monkey Business. If I did anything good in that game, it was finding Kawaii as town immediately and repeatedly insisting that everyone kept them alive. I thought Kawaii was obvtown because they seemed to really care about the reads they were giving to the thread. Their takes felt really genuine, and they weren't afraid to go against the grain to give what they believed about the game. They formed a worldview and it showed in their posting.

I don't get any of that here? What I feel from Kawaii's ISO in this game is a lot more cold, removed, and descriptive. It feels like there's a concerted effort to show a coherent thought process, without the oomph behind it. Reading these posts, it feels like Kawaii is developing the complexity of their points as they're making them:

Dann-I like Dann's switch in thought about Clap/Klick in 538 and 542, they show a fluidity in thinking and attention to detail specifically to Klick's words in 504. Though I disagree with Dann's conclusion of Klick feeling performative with replication, I do feel Klick is off this game; letting things happen instead of actively pursuing anyone. Dann's switch in thought is specifically surprising since he defended Klick previously in 324, 328, 332 Is this potentially distancing between Dann/Klick? Yes. Does this feel like a natural switch in thought with Dann reflecting on the game? Yes. Though partner equity between Dann/Klick exists it's lessened with this change in thought.
What concerns me though is this,

Why are you voting Clap over Klick when it seems pretty obvious that there is a bigger appetite for a Klick wagon

i don't feel as confident in my read on klick

i think clap flips scum a lot of the time

i think there are some people on this playerlist who might be likely to follow me onto the wagon of my choosing

if Dann is scum he has the persuasive power to both defend and distance himself from Klick and to convince Black to vote clap twice in 333 (off of klick), and 556 to e-2. in defending and distancing from Klick, Black is a focal point, Dann mirroring her,

I just think it seems really convenient to hop on my wagon despite not agreeing with any of the reasons why I could be scum

I think it’s reasonable for klick to want to pressure you

He doesn’t have to think you are lock scum like dragon to want to put pressure on you to sort you

think klick/claptastik is still my top 360 no-scope pick for a scum team actually

I don't know with Klick I like instantly felt that something was off about how he was posting

This is hard to believe considering you townread him for *reasons* and tried to dismantle his wagon

What I mean by mirroring is Dann being defensive when Black is being accusatory, then Dann reflecting Black's klick read in thinking but not in action. Dann sees Black as town twice in 321 and 545
I agree with Dann in Black being town. When initially reading the interactions between black and dann about klick made sense. If it's town/town both have diverging ways of thinking that end up to close to the same conclusions. If it's scum/town then Dann is pocketing Black. If scum/scum then this is a masterclass in deception especially with this in the game. The back and forth between black and dann feels way too organic to be calculated so I highly doubt scum parity exists between them. Dann's change in and flow of thought is in line with solving so I feel he slightly leans town at the edge of nai; his scum parity in potentially defending, distancing, and derailing votes off of klick weighing dann down. Since Klick is my highest scumread I want to flip Klick to see if Dann is town/scum.

Klick is insanely flippant this game, not only failing to unvote Black in e-1, but noticing she was and straight up not caring,

I was vaguely aware that Black was at E-1. I didn't care that much about it

This is sai, why would town notice and not care? Because it's funny? For the meme? Doesn't make sense to me at all.

Klick continues to not make sense, voting Black again in 260, citing he's happy with the "game running narrative", refusing to elaborate. Why is Klick happy with seeing Black as scum? What info is gained with this view? How does falling into this belief help solve?

Klick keeps going,

and I am going to make your life hard, intentionally

Like what the fuck is this? You don't want to sort me. You just want to be right about me so you can say "OoO I caught scum Black!!11!!"

I'M TOWN

If you're town I'm the wrong person to counter-push. I somewhat understand your concerns about my vote on you, but I feel that most of the votes on me have been just as lazy, and the difference is just that the vote is on you instead of me.

We're in similar spots if you're town. If that's the case then I think the scum are more likely to be in the quieter crowd.

Klick states, "most of the votes on me have been just as lazy, and the difference is just that the vote is on you instead of me"
Why is Klick voting Black without reason and saying the votes on Black are lazy?

It's like saying, "Ik the votes on you including mine are lazy but the votes on me including yours are lazy too"
This whole thing is a giant "No U" that Klick initiated by voting Black only to basically say, "We're the same"
If Klick is town then he makes a really good observation on their mutual positions and scum playstyle. But if Klick is town why is his playstyle so sai? Voting Black a 2nd time (to E-2) with 0 attempt to solve. Like why? Klick even admits he doesn't agree with any reasons to be voting Black,

Klick's townplay is generally very good and I'm legitimately shocked he agrees with some of the reasons being presented against me, so I think it's more likely he's just scum going along with the easy counterwagon

I agree with zero of the reasons but I don't think that means you're town

Klick redeems himself with this unvote,

I think Black is more likely to be town right now. I dont have a lock read yet but im confident i can get a very confident read there given enough time

I have an extremely good record of reading Black and if people can find me as town it would be cool if people trusted that

Dragon I believe it’s obvious he wants to catch scum!black and will do so by tunneling her regardless of her alignment so he can say he caught her

UNVOTE:
I'll take this. I'm not really 100% here atm but I'm willing to have a look at what you mean with Clap later

Klick realizing voting Black is a mistake and unvoting her is good play, it's either town Klick waking up or scum Klick seeing eliminating Black doesn't have enough support. Pretty nai but it does lessen Klick's scum behavior since this is town behavior.

Klick then goes onto lead the charge against FakeGod accusing him of having fake thoughts,

I acknowledge that FakeGod had some content in their ISO that looked like solving on the surface
My point was rather that the content itself felt forced, felt like it was driven by what FakeGod wanted to push into the thread rather than what FakeGod thought. It felt like the purpose of their posting was to look a certain way, as opposed to just solving. And that bothered me.

I'm seeing a shift in thought/approach once the 2nd Black vote fell, hopefully Klick is close to a solve he hoped to have in the beginning,

I feel like I'm close to having enough information to try to infer some sort of solve but I'm not quite there yet.

This is what I want most from Klick now. In alignment he's a slight scum lean to me with getting Black to E-2 in the 2nd vote then unvoting her and changing play.

It feels significantly different from what I've just read over in Monkey Business.

I could see Kawaii being scum here

[Klick]

"Resetting reads to neutral" doesn't really feel like something I would be able to do as town. Even without prior knowledge of playstyles or anything, there are just going to be people you should find less or more likely to be scum/town

Not at all, 90% of this day 1 is just "They acted like this in this scum game" and at this point I legitimately have no reads on anyone because most of it relies on knowing each others playstyle and metaing the shit outta them

I can see where you're coming from

Hiya
I'm doing Neko next, and atm I'm very much back in 'Neko is obvtown' camp
But I don't know how effectively I can put the read into words

It would help quite a bit if I could dialogue it with you if you're around for a bit

[Klick]

A very succinct summary is that Neko reads as extremely genuine and is having legitimate struggles that he would be having here if he were town, and they'd have to be significantly faked if they were scum

But not only that, they'd have to be

regularly

and

consistently

faked

If Neko is scum why is he reminding us every other post that he is new and struggling to form reads

I believe that most scum with amorphous social deduction experience but no MS experience would be putting in at least minimal effort to avoid using the 'new card' as a crutch
But Neko just looks like he's saying it because it's where his head is actually at

[Klick]

my gut instinct about neko is that new scum often use the "idk what's going on i have no reads" as a shield, however, i feel that neko is different because there seems to be some genuine frustration around not getting a bead on anyone. that is, it seems more like a genuinely difficult situation for neko to be in and not just a convenient position to take up.

Haha yeah

[Klick]

I hate making scum cases because they always feel like a crapshoot at best
I feel like Kawaii could pretty viably be town even despite me feeling off about them and my PoE being small

I feel much more comfortable towncasing someone like Neko and feeling like I'm probably just right

[Klick]

@Black: That's alright I did a post on it anyway, it's a decent start. Fine to hash it out in more detail when you're around

[Klick]

cases are for convincing people of a gut scum read, they aren't actually the reasons for a scum read

This is exactly why 1) I rarely make cases and 2) I'm more likely to read a case to get a read on the player writing it than for its intended purpose

[Klick]

Dann how do you read FakeGod atm

[Klick]

Hey Skygazer, could you unlock the Mafia PT for Newbie 2127?

[Klick]

Time to play my favorite minigame

Claptastik, why are you town? What's the difference here that means you're town and not scum that I should be seeing? I don't think this game is THAT different from Newbie 2127 for you from a surface glance.

[Klick]

I want to lean towards town just because like, he's kind of playing to lose if he's scum?

not pushing any counter wagons,

devotes his time to a random town case on Black

seems generally stubborn and self-righteous

idk I've misread those types of qualities before as scum I suppose but it doesn't *feel* right to me.

I get what you're saying

There is the question of 'what is scum!FakeGod trying to accomplish atm'

My running theory for that was 'get me eliminated' but there's not exactly a clear long term plan after that happens

There's also the possibility that scum!FakeGod just overestimates their position here and thinks they're not in too much trouble

I get frustrated if FakeGod is town because I feel like I'm left with extraordinarily few options
But maybe Kawaii is the more reliable vote for today

[Klick]

I don't think Clap and FakeGod are that likely as partners to each other

[Klick]

VOTE: KawaiiKame

[Klick]

Goodnight sleepy dragon

[Klick]

Let me know when you're back Black, I want to get on the same page with you on a few things

[Klick]

I'm home now but I'm running a fever so I don't feel like reading the wall posts

I'm willing to admit I could be wrong about Neko and I also wouldn't mind fading kawaii today

ayy fever club

If you vote Kawaii you'll have officially voted everyone in the game today

[Klick]

Kawaii is e-2 I think

@klick is there anything specific you want to talk about

What's your read on FakeGod

[Klick]

Yay