Eminence in Shadow: Season 1 [Game Over]

[PenguinPower]

VOTE: ssbm_kyouko

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I have often found that players' particular word choices are strange and done meta-dives where I check if a player normally uses those words. It feels like you, T3, were familiar with that, and you delivered the evidence of town!Klick to me unprompted, and in a manner that I would normally find Klick to be town for myself if this particular SR on Klick was based on his verbiage. I do not think you should have that level of familiarity with my play, which makes me think that you are in a PT with someone that advised you on my meta. Of this playerlist, that someone is almost certainly one of Gamma or Koba, or maybe Dunnstral.

Setting aside how likely this is to be T3 gaining info rather than a coincidence where you are jumping to conclusions, this seems like something I would be unlikely to do. Perhaps if you look at how I play in the mafia threads I have been a part of, you would agree:

viewtopic.php?t=91474
viewtopic.php?t=90969
viewtopic.php?t=90850

I focus on mech, what we should be claiming, potential town power roles, how we look if specific players die at night. I don't talk about player meta in the mafia pt at all.

noted

[ssbm_Kyouko]

It feels like you, T3, were familiar with that, and you delivered the evidence of town!Klick to me unprompted, and in a manner that I would normally find Klick to be town for myself if this particular SR on Klick was based on his verbiage.

Is this in reference to 503 and 516?

503 is his initial reaction to me SRing Klick - I don't think that it's reasonable for him to have read 495 and think that my issue with Klick is that he used the words "convince me" without prior knowledge that this is the kind of thing I am liable to push on from time to time.

516 is the unprompted evidence that Klick uses this verbiage as town

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Dunn and mines bottom tier is mostly the same as yours so I don’t see how town you reads 2 ppl as scummy if they share similar views as you

I still don't actually know what this means

Dunn you and I share very similar bottom scumreads

It makes 0 sense for town you to have those bottom scumreads and also scumread Dunn and I

I disagree with this as reasoning on quite a few levels -

1. I don't actually have a conscious awareness of yours and Dunn's scumreads, and didn't when I developed my reads. My read on yourself and Dunn is independent of your reads on anyone else.

2. The bottom reads themselves are not particularly controversial, I don't think? To the point where I wouldn't be surprised if there were, say, three scum in my bottom six, and the last partner decided to have their scumbuddies all towards the bottom.

3. I also don't think my lower reads at this stage are powerful enough to justify them shifting my view of other players based on them. If anything, the bottom of my list is the bottom mostly because the top have pulled away from them, not the other way around.

4. I don't even scumread you or Dunnstral.

What do you think about the fact that Gamma has an acute awareness of your and Wheme's scumreads?

[KawaiiKame]

It feels like you, T3, were familiar with that, and you delivered the evidence of town!Klick to me unprompted, and in a manner that I would normally find Klick to be town for myself if this particular SR on Klick was based on his verbiage.

Is this in reference to 503 and 516?

503 is his initial reaction to me SRing Klick - I don't think that it's reasonable for him to have read 495 and think that my issue with Klick is that he used the words "convince me" without prior knowledge that this is the kind of thing I am liable to push on from time to time.
516 is the unprompted evidence that Klick uses this verbiage as town

UNVOTE: Sakura Hana
VOTE: T3

[Klick]

1) I have 6 bottom reads: {STD, Gamma, Penguin, Pooky, Chungus, jjh}

2) I looked at the VC and saw I was with four of those bottom reads on jjh

3) I then looked at the previous VC and saw that three of those four were also the majority of the Cakez wagon

4) I found this interesting, and I found it further interesting that these were essentially the only slots in the game involved in the game's major wagons so far

5) I generally assume most scumteams have at least some sort of goal they are trying to achieve by this point in the game

Therefore, by this line of logic,

(a)

Pooky/STD/PP are mafia because they vote as a unit - ???

(b)

Pooky/STD/PP are mafia because they are not townie - ???

(c)

Pooky/STD/PP are mafia because I don't know what the mafia would be doing if they aren't mafia ???

I was already presuming point (b) as per evidence 1) (and it's the most influential actual reasoning for me for suspecting anyone in this group)
Point (a) is an observation I made in evidences 2) - 4) that feels like it could be significant. It is inferential and does not carry a huge amount of weight
Point (c), aka evidence 5), is a general belief I have about how most scumteams operate that serves as supporting evidence for point (a) in this specific circumstance

I hope this line of thought satisfies your legitimate curiosity as to how I arrived to the ideas I have about where the scum might be at this moment, Pookington. I am not particularly interested in further inquiries on this matter.

[Klick]

also please don't vote off jjh until he gets to play the game.

I'll at least check the thread once a day.

I'm very happy with returning there if jjh doesn't exist in some capacity later
I just want more to happen atm

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm saying {Pooky/Penguin/STD} is a unit that i expect to be high % scum because none of you are towny and idk what else scum is intentionally doing at all if they're not involved there

I think this would make more sense if you made the group {Penguin, STD}. and even then I wouldn't agree there is "high%" - ">rand" maybe?

More importantly though, why is Pooky a part of the group if Penguin and STD are following his vote around? Independent of other players, how is he scum?

[Klick]

What do you think about the fact that Gamma has an acute awareness of your and Wheme's scumreads?

It's not really outside the realm of what I'd expect Gamma to pay attention to tbh

[Klick]

I'm saying {Pooky/Penguin/STD} is a unit that i expect to be high % scum because none of you are towny and idk what else scum is intentionally doing at all if they're not involved there

I think this would make more sense if you made the group {Penguin, STD}. and even then I wouldn't agree there is "high%" - ">rand" maybe?

More importantly though, why is Pooky a part of the group if Penguin and STD are following his vote around? Independent of other players, how is he scum?

I think what's notable is being part of the makeup of the two major wagons so far, not necessarily the sheeping itself

I don't have a case to give on Pooky!scum outside of what I've already talked about.

[Sakura Hana]

Like your reaction feels so tailor-made to me, and it's also totally unprompted, it just feels too perfect to be a coincidence.

Why are you voting STD instead of any of those names you mentioned?

because what I said is whack and nobody is going to listen

And why does that stop you from voting them?

[Sakura Hana]

@Klick

: Within the reasoning you've given so far, i think out of the 3 it's more likely pooky town and 2 sheep scum than an entire scumteam piling up, like when does that even happen. More importantly consistently during the day.

@BCG

: Please answer the questions i gave you during my re-read

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Like your reaction feels so tailor-made to me, and it's also totally unprompted, it just feels too perfect to be a coincidence.

Why are you voting STD instead of any of those names you mentioned?

because what I said is whack and nobody is going to listen

And why does that stop you from voting them?

I don't think it will accomplish anything right now. I think I'd be better served to keep T3, Gamma, and Koba at an arm's length, watch them for something more concretely scummy that people will listen to, and attack later

[Gamma Emerald]

Idk
I kinda don't expect that to be true

I think this is a very nebulous statement but the posts in the topic review seem to indicate you have evidence to back this up so I won’t press it

[Gamma Emerald]

The answer would be that they're not intentionally doing anything

I think an issue I do see with your mindset is that you seem to be assuming scum have a broader-scope plan. I think that’s probably rarer than you think it is, yes scum generally try to coordinate but I think in the majority of scenarios scum will often just take their own approach

[Gamma Emerald]

Also I think voting blocks very rarely contain high density of mafia, I’ve led myself on wild goose chases with that belief before

[Gamma Emerald]

What do you think about the fact that Gamma has an acute awareness of your and Wheme's scumreads?

What does this even mean

[Gamma Emerald]

@Luka

could you explain your Sakura progression in more detail?

Out of all the TRs in 159 this feels the least natural since you had just been voting her, and as a result I feel like 153 is a valid post, I don’t see a real thru-line for how you got to that townread. I think that’s a leader for scum in that pool of 4 town if there is any since I can see the Sakura questioning as a distancing tactic.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Dunn and mines bottom tier is mostly the same as yours so I don’t see how town you reads 2 ppl as scummy if they share similar views as you

I still don't actually know what this means

Dunn you and I share very similar bottom scumreads

It makes 0 sense for town you to have those bottom scumreads and also scumread Dunn and I

I disagree with this as reasoning on quite a few levels -

1. I don't actually have a conscious awareness of yours and Dunn's scumreads, and didn't when I developed my reads. My read on yourself and Dunn is independent of your reads on anyone else.

2. The bottom reads themselves are not particularly controversial, I don't think? To the point where I wouldn't be surprised if there were, say, three scum in my bottom six, and the last partner decided to have their scumbuddies all towards the bottom.

3. I also don't think my lower reads at this stage are powerful enough to justify them shifting my view of other players based on them. If anything, the bottom of my list is the bottom mostly because the top have pulled away from them, not the other way around.

4. I don't even scumread you or Dunnstral.

What do you think about the fact that Gamma has an acute awareness of your and Wheme's scumreads?

What does this even mean

Based on Klick's point #1 about why he disagrees with Wheme's reasoning, I expect him to feel that town is not considering someone's scumreads when forming a read on them.

However, you scumread Wheme because his scumreads line up partially with the scumreads in 597 from Klick - meaning you are considering Wheme's reads. I think Wheme's rebuttal makes a lot of sense (Dunn and Wheme are in the second from the bottom tier) and that the reason you voted Wheme is very shallow (Wheme's scumreads are in Klick's bottom tier so Klick asspulled his disagreement with the list), but I wanted to know what Klick thought about this.

It seems like you are paying more attention to who scumreads who, and picked out a very surface-level issue to "gotcha" Wheme with. I feel like it's something Klick should take issue with but he excuses it as something he expects you to be doing. I'm weighing the possibility now that he's right.

[Klick]

The answer would be that they're not intentionally doing anything

I think an issue I do see with your mindset is that you seem to be assuming scum have a broader-scope plan. I think that’s probably rarer than you think it is, yes scum generally try to coordinate but I think in the majority of scenarios scum will often just take their own approach

I am told this not-infrequently

It frustrates me, but it is also probably largely true and I need to accept it

[Gamma Emerald]

Based on Klick's point #1 about why he disagrees with Wheme's reasoning, I expect him to feel that town is not considering someone's scumreads when forming a read on them.

However, you scumread Wheme because his scumreads line up partially with the scumreads in 597 from Klick - meaning you are considering Wheme's reads. I think Wheme's rebuttal makes a lot of sense (Dunn and Wheme are in the second from the bottom tier) and that the reason you voted Wheme is very shallow (Wheme's scumreads are in Klick's bottom tier so Klick asspulled his disagreement with the list), but I wanted to know what Klick thought about this.

It seems like you are paying more attention to who scumreads who, and picked out a very surface-level issue to "gotcha" Wheme with. I feel like it's something Klick should take issue with but he excuses it as something he expects you to be doing. I'm weighing the possibility now that he's right.

You might be right
I honestly think a significant portion of my issue with Wheme is his attitude irritates me. He seems to think he deserves being sheeped when I don’t think he’s really put in the work to prove he deserves it. He did a similar thing last game but with different execution and circumstances so I felt like this could be the scum side of that same coin but I think a better approach is to let him actually do things outside of the particular irritating behavior and see how I feel about that.

[Klick]

also please don't vote off jjh until he gets to play the game.

I'll at least check the thread once a day.

I'm very happy with returning there if jjh doesn't exist in some capacity later
I just want more to happen atm

I've just realised you meant the opposite of what I thought you meant here lol

[Luka]

Luka was prodding at 2/4 players there, and I don’t feel like enough work was shown to how he went from there to having townreads on the slots

Pure skill
continue to accuse me of tmi it wont mask the aura of brilliance
klick seems p town btw

[Luka]

How does people voting as a block equate to there must be mafia in those people

save the dragons + gamma top 2 scum reads
this is just really bad

[Luka]

@Luka

could you explain your Sakura progression in more detail?
Out of all the TRs in 159 this feels the least natural since you had just been voting her, and as a result I feel like 153 is a valid post, I don’t see a real thru-line for how you got to that townread. I think that’s a leader for scum in that pool of 4 town if there is any since I can see the Sakura questioning as a distancing tactic.

Did you read the thread
It was the post that was like uh complaiing about being voted that felt town idk