Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]

[DragonEater70]

Okay, sounds legit

What do you think of Elements/Ydra/Klick/Dragon/DV?

[Klick]

I think it's a good shot
I feel like it's possible to feel more confident on either Elements or someone else with a bit more discussion

I'd like to talk about DV!town a bit as well because that read isn't as strong as I've presented it
I think DV is town but I want to solidify it

[Klick]

I'm going to be fading in and out of discussion periodically unless I'm needed for a discussion topic in particular
I'm still basically around

[DragonEater70]

Yeah I'm pretty much at the same headspace except that Ydra and Elements are flipped for me

If you are scum you are really pocketing me well

So anyway how do we go about solidifying these reads

[Klick]

As for my read on Klick, he feels like he's not trying to be TR'd at all (unless he is playing a game of "let's pocket Dragon and get null'd by everybody else", which if it is the case then I wish him luck with that since idk how far it will get him), and I think that makes him pretty towny.

who do you think is trying to do that then?

he hasn’t posted a lot so i struggle to see how someone can very comfortably make that call i guess. there’s a part of me that thinks he could be playing a clever wolf game based on how he treated you by like… kind of uno carding you. i don’t know how likely this is but i felt it was possible, and if he was doing something like that he’s now got someone in his court without much loss. with what looks like recent history it makes sense to me that he might want to capitalize on that when presented with the chance, etc

implo is trying very hard to be TR'd.

So… this was actually my exact thought.

I think I might have been wrong on my read of you

On Ydra: I liked that her read on me was just vibes. It also made sense to me because I think my play has been mostly pretty boring and easily could provoke the thought of “this is where I think scum would be”.

btw, i just realised my browser messes up the font that prism uses for the vcs

Just checking: Is the latest VC readable for everyone?

Most mobile browsers render a different font than the one I use, which is fine by me, but if the VC is mangled or difficult to parse, let me know and I'll switch it up.

It’s been fine for me!

Also miscellaneous thoughts:

Klick moved up in my reads a bit because of him saying that he’d been ambiguous about his read on Dragon, at a time when I think he had only really expressed a scumread there. I think this is more likely from town because scum are more likely to be hyper-aware of the “positions” they are taking on people while town are more likely to believe that because they

felt

ambiguous about someone it would come across in their posts.

On implosion, there are specific ways in which I feel he has tried to look town, but I want to give implosion a chance to be able to properly engage with the game (and also see whether the things concerning me continue) before going all in on that.

When I go through my townreads (which I have too many of, I know), the one that least holds up to scrutiny at the moment is T3. I was doubting Appearance for a while but looking back I feel like the backtracking by saying that maybe Klick/Dragon didn’t look like distancing was more likely consistent with townie lack of confidence. Still not sure though, because the T3 read in particular doesn’t feel proactive, as if they’re taking the fact that T3 will be in the coalition as a given and not questioning it, but again… could be town struggling with confidence in their reads.

This string of posts is when my read on DV shifted from 'potentially scum' to 'probably town'

[Klick]

For some background context: DV and I are rather good friends. We've played probably over a dozen games of Survivor together. We've met up IRL. Probably my best MS friend that I'm not married to. We don't keep up super often because I don't really know how to do that, but I'd like to say I know DV rather well.

I don't really have that much Mafia experience with DV though. If I get to an accurate townread on DV, it's likely going to be through the avenue of 'I believe DV genuinely believes what he's saying'.

And that's sort of the vibe I get from the above three posts I think? Particularly the last one. I feel like I'm getting genuine DV consideration.

[Klick]

My only recent interaction with DV in Mafia was in TM2023, as his teammate, and he was scum

viewtopic.php?t=90836

I'll look through this later and see if it gives any good insight into how to properly read DV. I seem to remember having thoughts on the difference between town and scum DV while this game was going on, but I'd need a serious refresher

[DragonEater70]

I liked 131, 132, and the first two reads is 147 - but something doesn't fully sit right for me with regard to the read on Appearance

Maybe it's just DV's writing style but it feels sort of fake? IDK

Other than that these are exactly the posts I TR him for.

[Klick]

DV's writing style can appear fake on the surface to some. It's the careful consideration thing I was talking about earlier

Does it feel like performative trying to show considered thought of both sides of the Appearance coin to demonstrate a thought process?

That is something DV would likely try to do as scum but it's also how DV just thinks in general

[DragonEater70]

Does it feel like performative trying to show considered thought of both sides of the Appearance coin to demonstrate a thought process?

Kinda?

[Appearance]

Appearance can you talk to me about your reads a bit

Just in general, why do you TR the people in your coal and who do you think is scummy

i think i've explained most of my reads in the coalition minus ydra.
re: ydra, it's more so the way that she's been posting. there's a level of genuineness there and also, she seems to be trying to poke.
idk. mainly that sort of mindset usually makes me think of town.

[DragonEater70]

If you think that's just how he plays that does somewhat allay that doubt

Pedit: I meant like explain in detail

Also, who do you scumread?

[DragonEater70]

Also are you an alt? Somebody mentioned you were an alt

[Appearance]

Also are you an alt? Somebody mentioned you were an alt

yeah.
i'm a secret alt.

[DragonEater70]

You kinda ping me as being an alt of

RH9____

Anyway cool, I think you are town

[Appearance]

Pedit: I meant like explain in detail

Also, who do you scumread?

oh.
the first part's hard since t3 is just vibes.
you and elements is for content.
you, because you were discontent with tring people, elements for not exclusively concerned with forming a coalition earlier.
ydra is for tone.

for the second part, idk. i can't read implo/dv well tbh.
klick could be town, i guess? but idk.
kyouko, i think could also be town. her analysis seems solid.

[DragonEater70]

So if I get it correctly you have no scumreads at all?

[Appearance]

So if I get it correctly you have no scumreads at all?

technically, yes.
tho i'm going to reread implo and dv's isos later today.
since if klick/kyouko are town, then those two will be in the poe by default.
of course i could be wrong on t3.

[DragonEater70]

HEAL: Appearance

[DragonEater70]

Also I'm 99% about who you are but maybe I'm just confbiasing

[DeasVail]

I liked how Elements mentioned having the thought of not wanting to be in the coalition because that's a thought that I had early on as well.

Which I know is unfortunately not necessarily a reason to think someone is town, but something I have been thinking about is how scum would want to position themselves in/out of the coalition etc. It's probably premature to think too much about that but.

I've also been thinking a lot about the implo read. It's in some ways easier that we're in a coalition phase rather than voting for scum because I think there's a risk here of me just reading everything implo posts in this game with a scum-tinted lens, for whatever reason, and I need to keep that in check.

I'm looking back over the early posts to rediscover what my early qualms were. I think that posts like 76 gave me the impression of the focus being more on how implosion appears to others, rather than the read itself. Of course, town will want to explain their read to others in a way that is accessible and comprehendible, and I'm not sure that I feel as strongly about that now. It's just really interesting to me that DragonEater and I had very similar thoughts on it when looking back it no longer *strikes* me the same way. Maybe I was just annoyed by 78 because I still don't see what is so "interesting" about having [4 townreads, 2 not-townreads who have posted, 2 not-townreads who haven't posted] and in 81, the "This is a good question and I think the answer is that i'm not really sure and i should probably go to sleep" part of his post made me think there was an effort behind phrasing that to appear more transparent and town.
All of this is largely irrelevant now, and I'm not sure that I even believe in much of it anymore (well maybe except for the "interesting" part).


I think the main concern I have re: implosion at the moment is that he clearly has a very logical approach to thinking about the game and his reads etc., but it seems to me that there are examples here where he departs from this to make (what I believe are) less logical points for the sake of convenience. 165 really struck me as something like this because the point about Klick's rhetoric being different should have been enough. Klick's group having "a much higher chance of being all town" shouldn't be a reason why Klick's post was less concerning? Especially since I believe implosion as town would be the kind of player that would expect there to be some amount of error in his early reads in need of re-evaluation.

In any case, this is an ongoing consideration for me and there is a freedom in not having to consider ~eliminating~ implosion, but I think I am still at a point where I would prefer he isn't in the coalition.

[DeasVail]

I have a general liking for Kyouko's points and posts but I don't think I can rule her out as scum, really.

[Appearance]

btw, i just realised it's elements bday (or maybe my timezone is early).
just in case, happy bday, elements!

[DeasVail]

I think that a coalition with me/klick/dragon/elements/Ydra is probably fine. If anything I'm probably now least confident of Ydra but that's more because my confidence in the others has increased.

PEdit: I think it's an early timezone thing

[DeasVail]

Klick, I think Appearance could be a consideration for town? It's maybe more of a general vibe thing than anything specific, but I think Appearance would probably try harder to have more "solid" opinions here. I don't think the vagueness is necessarily scum-indicative for him.

When it comes to the read of me, I do have to say it was a mild surprise to me that I was in your initial town group. Like I said about Ydrasse's read on me, I didn't think I had played in a particular TOWN way and so I would have probably been more suspicious of Ydrasse if she were townreading me back then. I think for me it's not so much about scumrange but more an absence of things that I would try and make sure to do if I were scum.