Mini Normal 2323 [There is an Inventor] | FIN

[Duelist Kage]

Greetings, I am your new Gamma! My lucky number is 19, I like long walks in mysterious forests, and voting scum.

VOTE: Enchant

I agree that it is quite likely to be a 2-person scum team with this vig-happy setup and the talk from Dragon at the start of the game.

And I have no idea why dave is talking like there must be a backup. A backup in addition to the backup shot we see in the Katsuki flip? What does the mod have to do with any of it? I am confused.

[Duelist Kage]

Oh.

You could just come out and say it, not sure why you're beating around the bush.

[Duelist Kage]

Yeah, that shouldn't be because of Katsuki. Her ability was specific to the Night it gets activated so she couldn't have inherited Dannflor's role as that role died during the Day.

I was thinking it was reasonably likely another scum would be a backup but I guess it's much more likely now.

[Duelist Kage]

Greetings, I am your new Gamma! My lucky number is 19, I like long walks in mysterious forests, and voting scum.

VOTE: Enchant

I agree that it is quite likely to be a 2-person scum team with this vig-happy setup and the talk from Dragon at the start of the game.

And I have no idea why dave is talking like there must be a backup. A backup in addition to the backup shot we see in the Katsuki flip? What does the mod have to do with any of it? I am confused.

Actually that's kinda on point i think, dragon strikes me as the kind of person who would pull this kind of stuff

anyways, did you perhaps have more theories to entertain us with duelist? this game certainely feels like we're at a standstill lol

Well maybe, I've been trying to work up a theory on what's going on with night actions but I need to read some more to see if my newest suspicion has something to it. I've only read portions of the game and that led me to suspect Black, so I'm trying to reassess.

The replacement of kyouko doesn't help.

[Duelist Kage]

I'm a little confused as to why we are assuming scum have a backup?

Did you miss any sections of posts?

Well that's a little rude. If you're making people read between the lines you can't really blame them for not understanding. I'm glad you said as much as you did, that info is helping me form a new theory, but I'm not sure why you aren't just saying it.

[Duelist Kage]

Okay, I'll say a little more. I'm operating on the theory that Black or Katsuki shot the other. Does anyone want to claim giving them a gun? It would be helpful to know if that came from town rather than Dragon's invention.

[Duelist Kage]

N1: Dragon gives doublekill to Black or Katsuki + Second scum tries to make night kill but is blocked
N2: Black and Katsuki die from the invention + Second scum gives dave the other doublekill

I keep forgetting it's not inherent multitasking, so yeah this makes perfect sense for a 2 scum team.

The first invention not being claimed was throwing me off for a while, maybe there was concern we'd just vote them out because of it? Dunno.

[Duelist Kage]

It's so nice to explain why none of that is possible and be ignored.

[Duelist Kage]

I don't think a town backup gives you something that makes you make dire pronunciations about how town needs you to townread them. If they think you're scum they give you the first one, which just kills you. If they don't think you're scum, why the hell are they giving an invention to you? Give it to a scumread!

[Duelist Kage]

And I don't think this game has room for there to be a town version of that inventor! Why aren't there more deaths if there's been two?

[Duelist Kage]

And I don't think this game has room for there to be a town version of that inventor! Why aren't there more deaths if there's been two?

Yeah I'm confused how he got the shot so fast. Its possible that it's something scum did night 1 and that's why there was no kills? Rules says they can't multitask iirc

N1: Dragon gives doublekill to Black or Katsuki + Second scum tries to make night kill but is blocked
N2: Black and Katsuki die from the invention + Second scum gives dave the other doublekill

I keep forgetting it's not inherent multitasking, so yeah this makes perfect sense for a 2 scum team.

The first invention not being claimed was throwing me off for a while, maybe there was concern we'd just vote them out because of it? Dunno.

With the assumption the second one is a backup, of course.

[Duelist Kage]

Elements replaces ssbm_Kyouko, please welcome them!

Hello Elements! I think the remaining scum's N1 kill was blocked. You wouldn't happen to be able to provide info about a blocking action N1 to hopefully wrap up this game would you? Maybe even with a side of rolecop showing if the target was a backup?

[Duelist Kage]

If the N1 maul was blocked, I believe somebody would have claimed it as that's pretty incriminating. Unless you also consider a protection as a block

What if it was a jailkeep and so somewhat ambiguous whether it was the intended target or killer? Or just lack of certainty that it was their own action causing it rather than someone else's and not feeling the need to start outting roles like that yet?

[Duelist Kage]

The first invention not being claimed was throwing me off for a while, maybe there was concern we'd just vote them out because of it? Dunno.

Or they could have thought it was from the Town inventor and just kept quiet about it. I believe the only ones they would have claimed would be the vig/bg one as it's just a suicide. The other two would probably be the two that wouldn't get claimed by a Town that thought it was from a Town so I'm seeing either of those as to what was given

I don't see that it matters why it wasn't claimed at this point, it wasn't and that's that. I'd want to give town info about why people were going to be dying, maybe even get a roleblock on me to stop it, but apparently someone thought differently.

[Duelist Kage]

No you don't.

[Duelist Kage]

yo yo yo (it's like a yo yo but moves in all three dimentions at once)
I'm not going to religiously read 93 pages so throw things at me to look at so I can catch up
or don't, up to you i guess

I already did, see above.

Elements replaces ssbm_Kyouko, please welcome them!

Hello Elements! I think the remaining scum's N1 kill was blocked. You wouldn't happen to be able to provide info about a blocking action N1 to hopefully wrap up this game would you? Maybe even with a side of rolecop showing if the target was a backup?

Ok now you're just being fishy VOTE: Duelist

Do you

not

think that a missing N1 kill warrants any blocking actions being claimed here so we can narrow down the suspect pool? Or rolecop results showing someone is a backup? Please explain why, in that case. It's d3 with a caught scum and probably one remaining, so I don't see the wisdom in continuing secrecy of valuable information. We could even go full massclaim but that's quite possibly overkill given the situation. We definitely should be claiming these relevant pieces of information if we have them.

[Duelist Kage]

Am I not being clear? I'm saying it to everyone. If you have info from n1 on a blocking action or rolecop of a backup, please claim it NOW.

[Duelist Kage]

In fact I will further clarify. Any action that could have stopped the night one kill needs to come out now so we can evaluate. Even if it's a doc protect, that's a clear and we don't want our forced vig to blow up a conftown, do we?

Would we rather just massclaim? Are people more comfortable with that?

[Duelist Kage]

Elements, you're killing me here. Have you seen my request?

[Duelist Kage]

You guys are quite frustrating.

It's a fact that Black had a gun N2. No way do scum give her anything but the double-kill invention. Chew on that for a bit. I'll be back later when you're ready to talk seriously.

[Duelist Kage]

In fact I will further clarify. Any action that could have stopped the night one kill needs to come out now so we can evaluate. Even if it's a doc protect, that's a clear and we don't want our forced vig to blow up a conftown, do we?

No, what's optimal is that we eliminate somebody, and then shoot the counterwagon. Consider both wagons as if they're being eliminated and claim accordingly. There's no real need for a mass-claim or a claim of any sort. Let the PRs decide on what's optimal for them, they have the information.

Do you just not believe in mass-claims or something? That's an absurd position. This is a great place to do a mass-claim; we have a good amount of information already and putting it all together will allow us to strategize what to do in the future. If not just flat-out solve things.

We have a townie who's forced to suicide-bomb someone tonight- don't we want to figure out who is confirmed town

before

that so he can target in PoE? There's one scum left unless anyone wants to argue against that point- anyone who had a confirmable N1 action is basically confirmed town because the remaining scum would be trying to make a night kill. Or find out who can hopefully roleblock to prevent that from happening? There may be multiple people who can roleblock- do we want them all to decide on their own to stop him and waste actions? Coordination is important.

[Duelist Kage]

It's a fact that Black had a gun N2.

This feels an awful lot like TMI

Wow, I'm sorry you think that Gunsmith actions are TMI. Just wait until you hear what I found out about Night 1!

[Duelist Kage]

Did you see where gamma thought kyouko had a guilty on dragon?

Still have no idea why gamma thought kyo had a guilty
does gamma get paranoid about night action results? like, i could maybe see red!gamma thinking there was a guilty because of her knowing dragon was red and then acting like she was trying to protect dragon?
I can see it as a tmi red play to try and look more town
I don't see where anyone would see a dragon guilty from

Well Gamma followed your/kyouko slot which was performing a JAILKEEP and ROLE INVESTIGATIVE action. And there was no kill that night.

So that may have had a little to do with it???



I'm assuming that's a combined action on the same target since mutitasking modifier was removed months ago, but feel free to say something if that's somehow wrong.

[Duelist Kage]

I'm even gonna take a wild guess at your target being Jackson, but I haven't looked through stuff enough to that be very firm, just saw kyouko was sus of him. Can't say I've liked his behavior today at all, feels very much like he knows he could get mech-guiltied and wants to deny info.

[Duelist Kage]

Well Gamma followed your/kyouko slot which was performing a JAILKEEP and ROLE INVESTIGATIVE action. And there was no kill that night.

is this you claiming some sort of follower?

Yes, obviously I had a follower and a gunsmith shot.

[Duelist Kage]

There's one scum left, Elements. You're basically conftown because your action is confirmed and so am I. There's no multitasking. No way scum decide to no-kill so they can go investigate some townie.

[Duelist Kage]

I don't know exactly what your investigative is but I'm assuming not a full cop. That would be OP with a JK. ScumGamma would expect you targeted her to block the kill there, not Dragon.

[Duelist Kage]

i mean, scum can still be manually multitasking though? the no multitasking rule is there to make sure the inventor wolf can't also do the factional kill

No, the modifier was removed months ago and just reintroduced as Simultaneous, too late for it to be in this game.

viewtopic.php?t=91867

[Duelist Kage]

I know, it's a bit hard, I was struggling to make sense of it until dave's revelation which made me realize Dragon clearly wasn't the target because he gave Black the gun and there's no multitasking.

[Duelist Kage]

Wait why the hell you would give macho

idk, take it like a fruit vendor? the activation is non-madatory and this maybe allows to check if like there indeed is 2 scum or 3

my N2 was also spent on Black so no result from that one

Right, that's exactly what I'd expect it to be for. If we didn't hit the scum inventor first we'd all be expecting a likely 3-scum team. That action could be an earlier tip-off, if people are communicating.

[Duelist Kage]

also ummm not that it matters but i've read my role PM wrong, the macho is not activated it's passive, so that's basically a machoifier

anyways the important part is that i gave black the cop invention night 1 so maybe it's actually katskui who received the gun from the wolves? not sure if this changes anything

I don't think it really does; maybe Black got both inventions or Katsuki got the vig. I don't think gunsmith is going to differentiate how many gun-bearing abilities someone has. . Either were likely to shoot the other with the scum doublekill. That's the only explanation I'm seeing for there being two deaths last night, unless someone belatedly wants to claim a vig.

[Duelist Kage]

this game is like modifier bingo

You're more correct than you realize.

I maaaaaaaay have a shot of ModifierCop left.

[Duelist Kage]

There's no multitasking.

Individual roles can be multi-tasking

Did you read the link to the Normal changes that I posted earlier?

[Duelist Kage]

yeah whatever i'll fullclaim

i'm a lazy Inventor (announcing FruitVendor, Cop-Inventor, compulsive personal Strengthener, Macho)

i gave the cop inventor invention to black night 1, this might be what caused the gunsmith guilty

assuming every claim as true, this would make the setup the following :

Town lazy Inventor (announcing FruitVendor, Cop-Inventor, compulsive personal Strengthener, 1-shot activated Macho)
Town JOAT (activated Ascetic, activated Informed, activated UniversalBackup)
Town combined JKer investigative
Town with a gunsmith and follower shot
6VT

Werewolf lazy weak compulsive Inventor (compulsive combined Vigilante Bodyguard x2, compulsive combined Vigilante Hider x2, compulsive strongwilled weak Vigilante)
Werewolf ???

this feels like it makes sense?

I'm also an inventor, I am not claiming at all but Hu Tao can confirm or deny if I got JK'd n1

I look forward to finding out more about this?

[Duelist Kage]

Wait why the hell you would give macho

Macho goes against the Town
Dann was also a compulsive wolf, making the compulsive strengthener even more suspicious. Dann couldn't have used anything except something compulsive.

You sound like you want to counter-claim inventor. I don't think there's any need for that. There can totally be two inventors and they don't necessarily need to be stocked with things likely to be helpful. I believe Gypyx's roleclaim. It's way more complex and situationally relevant for than necessary for something she'd have just decided to put together to spuriously claim without need.

[Duelist Kage]

Well Gamma followed your/kyouko slot which was performing a JAILKEEP and ROLE INVESTIGATIVE action. And there was no kill that night.

Where did this come from?

The same place all night action info comes from: my PM box.

[Duelist Kage]

What do you mean by red herring? If the setup says there's a godfather there's a godfather. Should be a godfather/backup, which is why I'm clearing people for having provably used roles. Godfather+backup+anything else sounds too over the top.

[Duelist Kage]

what is kage's role exactly btw? didn't understeand that part too much

He appears to be Katsuku 2.0. A JOAT with a Gunsmith, Follower and a Modifier Cop. All of which aid in finding PRs instead of wolves in this setup

Please stop misgendering me. And are you seriously arguing that scum would not just forgo their nightkill to use a Follower shot, but find a Jailkeep+investigative with it and then... not kill them?

[Duelist Kage]

Jackson, you're not even absorbing the argument on why it was a 2-person wolf team. You didn't bother even including the world that I believe we're in as a

possibility

. You're jumping to weird conclusions like "maybe Maul is actually not ever usable because scum are compulsively doing other things" rather than accept the much more viable position that the n1 kill was simply blocked and n2 the remaining wolf was forced to vend the vig to dave rather than outright kill. It makes even

more

sense now that we know dave was the JK target for n1, so he was almost certainly protected there and so they tried again with the n2 vig invention.

[Duelist Kage]

Look, here's a breakdown of worst case scenario if we were in a 3 wolf world. Thomith's wasn't dire enough because he forgot about the N2 kill.

9 town/3 wolf
D1 miselimination
8/3
N1 kill, vig dispensed
7/3 on D2
D2 miselimination
6/3
N2 kill, 2 deaths from vig invention
3/3 starting D3 = game over


This is not balanced. There's potential for scum to get vigged or target the same as the town vig, but I don't believe bianco makes a game with a

larger

than standard scum team and then puts in extra killing power which is largely controlled by wolves.

I'll review the suggested plan later when I have more time but my initial impression is that Jackson is still being a paranoid tunneller and hopefully it doesn't even matter because Enchant is my prime suspect right now.

[Duelist Kage]

And in the world where there is no scum factional kill cuz of compulsive wolves.

9v3 wcs
Elim into 8v3
Vig vended 8v3
Elim into 7v3
Vig vended + 2 town dead 5v3
Elim into 4v3
Vig vended + 2 town dead 2v3

That's worst case scenario.
Wolves got 1.33 KPN by N3 and then it once again drops because that's exhausting the double kills.
And that's additional KPN that's risky as fuck due to it being in the hands of the Town

AND

delayed so it can be dealt with by the JK, the doctor invention, or gypyx's utility to control the killing somewhat. 3+ ways to block the kills, plus a slow and not even that beneficial kill method for the scum that's only barely beneficial by numbers over a traditional night kill that would only really benefit them if they're super lucky or they had excellent thread control

If you run it normally
9v3 elims into 8v3
kills into 7v3
elims into 6v3
kills into 5v3
elims into 4v3
kills into 3v3

Notice how it's pretty much the exact same?

What's the same, the two scenarios you gave which both end after 3 miseliminations (actually in the first one town still has a chance after the third miselimination if the townie hits scum with the vig)? Okay, and? You're coming up with a scenario which you yourself call "not at all what I'd expect from a normal" and insisting that it's somehow likely what's going on here rather than it just being a 2p wolf team, because if it's 2p you'd have to clear me and you're too tunneled for that. You're almost making

me

want to consider that you're TMIing your "3 wolves but they're all compulsively doing something useless besides the inventor and so Maul is just a red herring" scenario but I'm not going to go down the paranoia rabbithole. The tunnel on me is annoying - like, you call my and Gypyx's powers unhelpful and then complain that there's too many PRs for them all to be real? You're trying to talk your mech into agreeing with your scumread rather than re-evaluate it. I'm probably not going to engage with you on this matter further, I don't see it doing any good. I'm going to start looking at all the claims and strategize now.

[Duelist Kage]

Elements please claim. Can you do more jail keeps?

2-shot simple compulsive combined jailkeep vanilla cop

dave N1, you N2

Oh, just seeing this. Interesting. Your vanilla cop got results on both of them? Vanilla should be a clear because remaining scum is godfather/backup into inventor (or *sigh* compulsively doing something that blocks them from making a NK). I'm assuming someone having an invention would still show as vanilla but if that's not what you got on them it's worth double-checking.

[Duelist Kage]

Not sure I believe Elements claim. The time to claim who the action was on was immediately, not after an eternity of thought about what wouldn't be incriminating.

??

It was a bit annoying to have to wait, but how can anything be incriminating? Are you arguing for a wolf having a JK+investigative?

Also, was the follow (?) result "rolecop" or "rolecop-like"? Could make a difference as what Elements said was vanilla cop. A rolecop would be able to give a specific role.

Follower action gives results in the form of a category, such as killing, jailkeeping, role-investigative, etc. It was something in the role investigative category, which has 11 different possibilites and Vanilla Cop is indeed one of them. Not that I doubted it would be.

[Duelist Kage]

I don't think it's actually necessary to cross-invention each other, I just said each other cuz it seems cleaner to think about but if u got a Macho left, you should probably place it on someone scummy so that if it lands and somebody gets a suicide-vig they can avoid killing themselves.

There shouldn't be any more of the vig+bg so I don't think this is necessary, I believe we can just use it to confirm amount of wolves via her Lazy modifier. So best to send it to you?

[Duelist Kage]

Here's what I've got:

Claims

Duelist Kage:

JOAT (Follower on Elements N1, Gunsmith on Black N2, ModifierCop)

Gypyx:

Lazy Inventor (announcing FruitVendor to Black N2, Cop-Inventor to Black N1, compulsive personal Strengthener, Macho)

JacksonVirgo:

Inventor (?)

davesaz:

VT?

Elements:

JOAT 2xSimple Compulsive Combined Jailkeeper+Vanilla Cop (on davesaz N1, Hu Tao N2)

Enchant:

?

Thomith:

VT

Hu Tao:

VT

In 2-wolf world:

Duelist Kage

is clear from confirmed Follower information on Elements' N1 action

Elements

is clear from Duelist Kage's Follower results showing that she used JK+Vanilla Cop N1 because Dragon dispensed an invention to Black or Katsuki and remaining wolf would be expected to make a NK

Hu Tao

is clear from Elements' N1 Vanilla Cop because remaining wolf cannot be Vanilla due to confirmed Godfather and dave's claim of receiving wolf's invention showing that the second wolf must also be a Backup

davesaz

is clear from Elements' N2 Vanilla Cop for same?? (waiting on confirmation)

JacksonVirgo

is clear from dispensing an invention to Hu Tao N1 because Dragon dispensed an invention to Black or Katsuki and remaining wolf would be expected to make a NK
Thomith is unsorted
Enchant is unsorted
Gypyx is unsorted

Plan:

Flip Enchant
-----

Kage/dave/Elements/Jackson/Hu/Elements

/Gypyx/Thomith
Duelist Kage uses ModifierCop on Gypyx to confirm she has Lazy modifier rather than Compulsive
davesaz targets Thomith with vig invention
Jackson does something
Gypyx gives Macho to Jackson to confirm wolf count
Hu Tao maybe uses an invention
Elements bloops
-----

Kage/Elements/Jackson/Hu/Elements/

Gypyx
Gypyx remains to be sorted- if dave is still alive he was lying about getting the wolf invention and his gambit is done for- he can't claim to have been protected because we're not going to do that now that we've got all this info out, right?
Kage confirms or refutes Gypyx's modifiers
Jackson confirms whether Gypyx's Macho invention was received to give info on remaining wolves

I know, Jackson is going to want to plan for the 3-wolf world, but I think this is a good start to that at least. Feel free to take it from here.

[Duelist Kage]

If you're more sus of her now, all the more reason for me to check her modifiers to see if it matches her claim.

And if you can confirm the wolf count some other way, cool. My original thought was to give me the Macho because you want it to go to someone scummy and I don't think it's even going to be received because Lazy would kick in, but I didn't expect you to believe me telling you whether or not I got it so it doesn't really resolve the issue.

[Duelist Kage]

I guess I did mention I had ModifierCop left

after

she claimed, so she wouldn't have been crafting a claim with the expectation of being able to be caught out with it. If I'd mentioned it before she claimed, it'd be a pretty silly thing to fake.

[Duelist Kage]

1. If somebody gets a suicide-vig, they should shoot Kage 100% of the time if they claim to not have received one. This will kill them 100% of the time if they lied, so they won't lie.

I'm trying to parse this. I think you mean if I claim not to have received the Macho?

Really by the point this could even matter everything should be sorted so I'm not too fussed. If Gypyx's modifiers check out and davesaz and Thomith are gone then we're in something like a bizarro 3 compulsive wolf or scum JK world but I'm fine waiting to cross that bridge.

2. The investigation I gave Hu Tao is incredibly likely unused or even if it was used last night that wifom is open, and it's a visit-based investigative so even if you do wifom. If the result goes against theirs, then you go down.

I think it's fine. Thoughts?

I can't really have thoughts on actions I don't know but I expect you and Hu are town and reasonably competent at figuring out what to do with this ability. Any additional info from whatever you two are doing is just extra on top of a fine plan.

[Duelist Kage]

Alright then. Let's make sure to verify the result Elements got on dave first though. I have trouble imagining it's not accurate because in the bizarro world where the scum get to choose the vigs and JK action she's still trueclaiming at least the N1 action part of her role. Can't imagine why she'd lie about the target.

Now you've got me actually thinking too much about bizarro worlds, alas. Probably because it's 4am. I guess if we somehow get to tomorrow and our results are me getting Macho but also clearing Gypyx off her modifiers but we didn't get either scum yet, we resolve the flip via who got the scum vig or something? I feel like Elements would likely be scum here because of the compulsive so we probably go flip her? And resolve me via the vig? Leaving Jackson/Hu/Gypyx in 3P elo with Gypyx as conftown from my action and I think maybe also Jackson because Hu is confirming his action and was 'cleared' as vanilla by scum thus not actually clear- unless whatever the invention does can prove otherwise? I would actually need to think about this more.

Dear lord, why did I go down the rabbithole?

[Duelist Kage]

Meanwhile Enchant is just sitting there waiting to be released from the doomed scum slot and rolling his eyes as we spin elaborate irrelevant plans.

[Duelist Kage]

Paging Elements for a response to this before ending day, just in case.

Elements please claim. Can you do more jail keeps?

2-shot simple compulsive combined jailkeep vanilla cop

dave N1, you N2

Oh, just seeing this. Interesting. Your vanilla cop got results on both of them? Vanilla should be a clear because remaining scum is godfather/backup into inventor (or *sigh* compulsively doing something that blocks them from making a NK). I'm assuming someone having an invention would still show as vanilla but if that's not what you got on them it's worth double-checking.

[Duelist Kage]

Should be fine.

[Duelist Kage]

Thanks for taking over the doomed scum slot, Enchant!

[Duelist Kage]

Okay good, dave got the memo on shooting Elements instead if she was wrong about him being vanilla. I was a little worried since it hadn't been explicitly stated. Damn, that was a nice fakeclaim from her. Adding Simple for no particular reason was just a chef's kiss.

I got the Macho, of course, and the Vig+BG invention so I shall be exploding myself tonight if we don't catch the last wolf here.

I didn't realize that inventions from an inventor would trigger ModifierCop as well, as I got a list of all of the modifiers Gypyx claimed for her inventions: lazy, announcing, personal, compulsive. I may have chosen targets differently if I'd realized that but still, I'm inclined to clear her because Elements was the backup so the last wolf must be the Godfather and giving all that on top seems a bit much? Although I guess expecting things to not be a bit much from this game at this point is maybe... a bit much?

We need to know what's going on with Jackson's inventions now.

[Duelist Kage]

ATTENTION EVERYONE WE VERY LIKELY ARE IN ELo

You think there's going to be a nightkill tonight when we don't seem to have had them yet? I think we're just in 3P tomorrow. Although my head is kind of spinning now.

[Duelist Kage]

I will be very disappointed if wolves actually get to kill here finally. It

should

matter that we took the second one out and are in 4-1 here rather than 3-2.

I guess I've got to agree that Hu seems the most likely suspect. If Jackson's 1-shot Doc invention is scum too, I'm just going to cry. The jailkeeper was scum. There's bonus kills all over the place. We might not even make it to 3P ELO despite being at 4-1. The setup is definitely chaos.

I guess I'll have to revisit what might've been going on with kills. If Hu is the godfather, she must have been compulsively doing

something

also in order to not be able to use Maul. Hopefully something totally useless to the wolves.

[Duelist Kage]

I guess there was also dave's role to potentially limit the carnage- hadn't really even looked at his flip. So a 1-shot doc invention and an odd-night Bulletproof (when N1 isn't going to have a kill anyway) for protective abilities. Against probably three nights of double kills.

Who did the doc go to?

[Duelist Kage]

Also Elements was a rolecop, not vanilla cop like she claimed. I wonder why the switch. Obviously she never targeted dave or she'd have been able to claim his info accurately. Who would she have targeted, then? Feels likely to be relevant. Not Jackson because his invention went through to Hu. Probably not Gypyx because Black had the gun which could've been either invention but if she was rolecopped they probably would've tried to kill her next as a PR that could mess with their stuff? I guess it's possible Hu was the n1 target instead but why lie about the night?

[Duelist Kage]

Black was townread day one? Boy, then I really don't have a good sense of how this went from my patchwork reading. I saw a lot of suspicion that she and Dragon were teamed. I doubt they would try to investigate Black, I expect they wanted her to die from the vig given n1 in which case her role probably doesn't matter.

[Duelist Kage]

Wow, I finally get some sleep and wake up to this.

what were the infos bianco?

ftr that's a super creative setup but i think it was a fair bit scumsided

Yes, I agree. I hated the way Jackson was playing since I repped in but mechanically the setup favored him being town due to sheer inability to do anything to stop the overwhelming scum power.

Didn't help that I basically missed the Lazy modifier on the Dann role and couldn't believe the setup would be so stacked in scum's favor so I was confident we weren't needing to deal with a third wolf or I would've wanted to wait for dave to verify. I expected two chances to get the third one if Elements was actually lying there.

I really have to wonder why this is a 12p rather than 13p. It's not even possible to make it to day 5 without a lot of luck in managing to block a scum kill somewhere. Being in 4-1 with 2 dead wolves and not being able to vote wrong is

bitter

and totally avoidable if it's a standard sized game. Town

really

needed to have more power if wolves are getting a larger than standard team and all this ability to create chaos.

[Duelist Kage]

i don't know

there are like a fairly large number of worlds where scum are basically dead in the water because they can't get any kills through at all and the ones they do get through may not be on the targets they want

in which case i feel like people would be calling this setup town sided

Town had a 1-shot Ascetic and Odd-night Bulletproof (essentially just a Night 3 Bulletproof). I don't find many worlds where those come into play. Ascetic would have only stopped her from

receiving

an invention, not being killed by one. And vice versa for the Bulletproof. And those things were locked to one particular person's role, not targetable on whoever was most likely to be able to make use of it like protectives typically would do.

[Duelist Kage]

Yeah like, we had to rely on a wolf to tell us how the setup worked. And still missed enough vital info to figure out what to do.

[Duelist Kage]

I have got to remember that bianco expects town to play to a setup that they do not have knowledge of and her games are balanced accordingly.

[Duelist Kage]

I think from previous experience with her design and her commentary during the game it's very accurate. She doesn't take into account what the

expected

reaction would be in an uninformed perspective and designs out of fear of town playing like they understand things from the get-go. And calling me/Gamma out for wasting Gunsmith on Black (yes, Gamma had set that action already and I went along with it) is kind of a slap in the face.

[Duelist Kage]

Like, apparently I was supposed to be the most powerful PR here but the info I got was largely useless because roles were so all over the place. I got a follower result on scum but it gave me the opposite impression. I got a gunsmith result on non-scum but it gave me the opposite impression. I got a modifier cop on non-scum and it was ambiguous and I just had to pray that the order actually did matter. The game is littered with false positive potential even after you do have a grasp of what you're supposed to be looking for, which isn't going to be for some time, if ever. I'd say I'm more comfortable with mech than average but still got tripped up missing a detail or two that were absolutely vital. It's not a great feeling.

[Duelist Kage]

I just want to say, since I came off rather curtly before, that I do think your setup ideas are cool and creative, bianco, and I appreciate the effort you put into things. I just think with so many things that work the opposite of expected and/or have use in one very specific way there's very few people who are going to be able to flawlessly put all the pieces together to see the optimal way of doing things. I feel like I made a pretty good effort and we came closer to winning than if I hadn't pushed on the mech aspect, but I got too lost in the weeds of compulsive vig inventions to really even register the existence of the Lazy modifier that was our undoing. And that kind of smarts. So I hope you don't take my feedback personally.