Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]

[DragonEater70]

Why doesn't that make sense, when that's exactly what you thought before the swap?

Also I missed that question, sorry.

I don't feel like I can give a good answer to the difference between my town and scum game, because yes I have had like 2 scum games where I was pretty convincingly towny (Fruit Mafia and Open 890), and if you want I can talk about my play in those games, but since then I have become significantly worse as scum. Mainly due to real life / lack of motivation / not being in the proper mindset / idk (look at Mini Normal 2319 and Mini Normal 2323).

So right now I would characterize my scum play as "obvscum" and as having a very narrow scumrange, much narrower than anything I've done this game. When I get back my motivation / proper mindset as scum, I think there will be more point in comparing the differences, but right now any comparison will be false and moot.

Pedit: where have I been hypocritical?

[DragonEater70]

Like if you want I can talk theoretically about my top scum game, but it wouldn't be relevant to sorting me at all because I am just not in the correct headspace to play it as you can tell by looking at my recent scum games.

[DragonEater70]

Something just feels really off about fire as the answer.

I think I'm struggling with the idea that if Dragon/Appearance are both town then this game really should have been a win at coalition, and I've talked myself into the D1 narrative not supporting the idea that we swapped from a pass to a fail.

What feels off about fire as the answer?

[DeasVail]

im feeling a little lost rn

this is around the time of day i usually talk to people but i think due to timezones in this list that doesn't happen

i guess deas should probably awake. deas are you around? i am interested in more elaboration on your thoughts

Sorry! I was probably frantically cleaning at that time because I'm about to move, which is also may be part of why I am not engaging as deeply as I sometimes do. It's one of those situations where more depth of engagement would probably not change my reads a great deal. The unfortunate part of longer posts is that they are more often to justify an opinion I've already arrived at, but I do think that the reasoning behind what I've been thinking has not been as clear as it could have been at points here.

Probably the biggest gap is my read on Klick. Part of the read is still (and probably always will be) influenced by personal familiarity. Of course there is a pattern of Klick being less engaged in scumgames, but as scum that has chosen this game to be more engaged, I would still expect Klick to be playing differently. I think he would feel a need to cater to his audience more, I feel like there would be more self-consciousness. I liked it how early on in the game he just casually explained to DragonEater the general pattern of play from people such as implosion and myself. Klick's approach to the game has been clearly thoughtful (e.g. the approach to forming the coalition, the pivot on DragonEater today), without it feeling like he is trying too hard to show us how town and thoughtful he's being. It is a read I will continue to monitor closely, but I haven't really had cause for concern yet.

[fireisredsir]

but all the little aspects of their play just feel like earnest town too, things like 1149 and the wallpost followed by immediately saying that writing the wallpost raised some apprehension on the Klick scumread are maybe the kinds of things I am more inclined to townread than I should be but I feel it all fits cohesively in a world where Dragon is town.

the issue i have with that part is that i wasn't really convinced that he was truly having doubts. it's easy to post a case and then say you have doubts, but generally with a town player writing a case who begins to have doubts while writing it, you will feel those doubts start to creep in to the case itself

the fact that they didn't means that by the end of the post, he was still writing with the confidence of the prior scumread but that was apparently performed because internally he was having doubts. which again brings us back to the question of, is it town dragon putting on a performance or is it scum dragon putting on a performance

but either way i think its hard to see the having doubts portion be a sign of genuine towniness. i don't really see the reason he provided as making sense to doubt a scumread that he seemed so confident in

it's a pretty weak reflective stepback

idk i just think the trajectory in general feels like it's leaning heavily on a dramatic display of what the reads are and the changes in reads and confidence in reads, but it's lacking the substance that makes me believe this is really something he's deeply thought about

and it does seem to me like dragon is the type of player who as town will be deeply thinking about these kind of things. i just haven't really seen that visible in this game, it mostly feels fairly shallow

[fireisredsir]

It's one of those situations where more depth of engagement would probably not change my reads a great deal. The unfortunate part of longer posts is that they are more often to justify an opinion I've already arrived at, but I do think that the reasoning behind what I've been thinking has not been as clear as it could have been at points here.

i think this may be true but it is definitely still useful to see the higher detail of your thought process, both to make sure that there actually is one that makes sense and also because if you're town i think seeing your reasoning is useful. its not really about changing your reads, im just not very good at solving alone, i usually need to see what other people are thinking and talk to them about their ideas in order to solve well

i do think it's probably somewhat on the townier side for you to not feel as much of a need to display these thought processes, although i guess there's not much pressure for you to appear towny at this time since we're limming elsewhere

gl with the move

[DragonEater70]

fireisred, may I bring your attention to the fact that I explicitly said I do not know to properly explain what caused my doubts, rather than saying it was merely the thing about town way to react? So saying it's not a convincing reason doesn't really mean anything, since it wasn't even the main reason.

And yes, I admit that by the time I finished writing the case and pressed submit, I felt it could've been wrong. That probably DOES mean that the act of sending it was a performative act. I had said that I intend to obvtown and I stand by that, and I will perform in order to make clear that I am town.

[fireisredsir]

are you able to properly describe it now?

[T3]

This is already weird because the gamestate seemed to suggest that there was scum in the coalition, and I think Klick may have ignored that because he was the scum in the coalition and did not want to rock the boat.

Elaborate?

Then, a coalition with Kyo in it passed. Now if Klick's reads were "I'm fine with any coalition that isn't imp/Kyo" (475), I'd expect him to, well, continue that train of thought considering that a coalition with Kyo failed. Instead, he somehow starts TRing BOTH of these slots due to the coalition failing, even though he had them as partners before that????

This is not very clear-cut at all, given that Klick said a little bit later:

Part of the reason I'm happy with relinquishing responsibility here is because I also feel a little weird about just declaring it {implo, T3, Kyouko} and think that could just mean I'm wrong somewhere

I don't think the somewhere is DV but who knows

[T3]

I actually do like the rest of your case although I have not looked at it in great detail

[T3]

Appearance is also pretty fucking town, in the same under-the-radar way that Elements was town.

Explain

[T3]

I don't want to eliminate appearance anymore. I'm not usually one to analyse kills in great depth but I don't think the gob kill happens if gob was totally wrong. If gob was wrong on his reads, then leave him alive, let him steamroll through his pool or draw the ire of the rest of the town and get eliminated. As scum, I would NOT be expecting the town to sheep dead-gob, so all the more reason to.

Now, it is slightly problematic that gob's pool included 3 people on the coalition, but the fact is that gob clearly didn't want Appearance gone and so I don't either.

I... think I might need to just go for fireisred. There is nothing wrong with their play. They are totally reasonable and full of that townie goodness and all that, but with a lack of other options I feel good about, that is no longer really enough. Throughout my day of thinking anout the game I have swayed a little on DragonEater. There would be something satisfying about Dragon being scum, but I'm still not actually sure that this is it. There is a slight "unhinged" quality to Dragon's play at times that I think would be difficult to fake, whereas fireisred... I could see it?

Elsewhere, I do kind of like that implosion went a bit against the grain on DragonEater by calling him town for what I thought were good reasons.

I do want to be open-minded and so am interested to see where Klick goes on that read. After all, gob called Dragon scum too, but I'm not sure that I see it.

I feel this post pretty strongly.

I've read the Klick case and my biggest hangup on Klick-scum is just that I don't know if their scumrange is especially big - I'm still inclined to believe Klick as scum just wouldn't be able to have lead in coalition forming the particular way they did. I'm inclined right now to default to fire being scum, similar to the sentiment Klick is outlining here, in that everyone else on coalition feels harder and I think fire has been town but iirc they have a pretty wide scumrange. I expect Dragon has a pretty wide scumrange as well but all the little aspects of their play just feel like earnest town too, things like 1149 and the wallpost followed by immediately saying that writing the wallpost raised some apprehension on the Klick scumread are maybe the kinds of things I am more inclined to townread than I should be but I feel it all fits cohesively in a world where Dragon is town.

I think the Klick case paints a very reasonable portrait of Klick's potential scum motivations for various aspects of play but parts of it do feel tunnelly/uncharitable.

I rolled scum in a mini normal with Klick a while ago and he was pretty good, I can't say he led town but he replaced into a widely scumread slot and put up a good fight before being limmed. What he's done this game is a little outside of that but not by much.

[T3]

Currently the only solves that make sense to me are implo/fire, implo/Klick, and Klick/fire. Would be happy to vote any of these.

Pedit: hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I am not sure what to make of this post by implo considering my own post. I'll get back to this after work probably.

Would you be willing to vote implosion?

[T3]

I wonder if the team is Klick/implosion

[DragonEater70]

Will get to 1182 and 1183 in a second

Appearance is also pretty fucking town, in the same under-the-radar way that Elements was town.

Explain

I thought Elements was pretty obvtown because of how they were like, not caring at all about being townread, having a solving mindset but not trying to showcase it outwardly, and also I was strongly gutpinged by her indignance about being TR'd for something she didn't feel was TR worthy - it reminded me of these posts from a now completed town game of hers:

Spoiler: quotes

Green and Hu are red team, green is pushing to lim you into me for two mislims

I am not even advocating for your lim right now, what are you talking about

In fact I might even have a tiny townlean on you

Considering you didn't immediately vote out Hu Tao for fake claiming Doctor, it's pretty obvious that isn't true.

Do you realize I am the only one who continued to vote Hu Tao after she claimed doc?

Then ur TRing hu tao makes even less sense

As I said, I never believed her doc claim. I always believed her VT claim. I am TRing her as a VT, not as a doc.

Limming elements and copping roden still solves this

Why not limming Roden and copping Elements? Is Roden your scum partner?

What?!
When and why are you maybe town leaning me?
What have I done since the start of the day?

Elements feels too active and invested

This is such a wild take

Here

And that was enough to overhaul the large list of quotes linking me to Gamma?

For the second quote, 2127 is more important than 2232.

For Appearance, I think his main is usually LHF, I get the same LHF vibes here, and at the same time it feels like he is trying to solve, but he is NOT making an outward show of solving, he's just solving for his own sake because he wants to know who he thinks is scum/town for his own sake.

So that's what I mean when I say that I townread Appearance for the same reasons I TR Elements.

[DragonEater70]

Currently the only solves that make sense to me are implo/fire, implo/Klick, and Klick/fire. Would be happy to vote any of these.

Pedit: hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I am not sure what to make of this post by implo considering my own post. I'll get back to this after work probably.

Would you be willing to vote implosion?

I have yet to think about implovs posts right before the one you quoted. I will think about them and give you an answer.

[T3]

Part of me struggles to understand why scum implosion would play today this way

[T3]

I feel like if he were scum with Klick then he'd have more urgency to get people off Klick... unlikely though

[T3]

Right, because there's at least 1 scum in Klick/Dragon/Appearance/fire

fire is town. I feel and have felt incredibly in-sync with him and would be shocked if he's scum. I have thought many of the same things that he has thought on multiple different occasions and there have been certain things that I've thought but not said in thread but then that he's said in thread

Appearance is town. That kill is baffling coming from scum Appearance and I've also said why I townread him earlier.

There is at least 1 scum in Dragon/Klick. I suspect that scum is Klick, and I townread Dragon more than I townread him. I also doubt that Klick/Dragon are bussing given the very real chance of one of them being limmed and the unlikelihood of one of them endgaming even with the towncred received.

[DragonEater70]

are you able to properly describe it now?

Maybe? I honestly kinda forgot what made me doubt the read but here's a sort of approximation of what happened:

So as I was writing my scum case on Klick, I was obviously going through his ISO and I did notice several of the things that had originally made me come back to healing him (reminder: at one point I hurt Klick/DV and added Kyo/Ydra, but then I re-added Klick after some things happened), including like his posts where he was maybe showing a town mindset by saying we should sheeo me etc.
Then I also had the thought that although Klick's scumread of me is utterly ridiculous, it is possible that I am letting my annoyance about his behavior on Monday color my read of him, and that it is possible that town!Klick would have such a ridiculous thought process. I still think it's unlikely, but earlier I had said I 100% don't believe town him would ever think that and now I'm like more 80-90% sure that it's scum indicative for him to scumread me for not immediately answering.

Pedit: aren't you the one voting him though? Why did you imply you could see Klick/implo a minute ago?

[T3]

Pedit: aren't you the one voting him though? Why did you imply you could see Klick/implo a minute ago?

I'm more just working it through in my mind

[DragonEater70]

Or to put it another way, fire, earlier I was of the opinion that Klick claiming to scumread me for not answering immediately was 100% incriminating for him, and now I still scumread him for it but I could see a world where he does it as town.

[DragonEater70]

Pedit: aren't you the one voting him though? Why did you imply you could see Klick/implo a minute ago?

I'm more just working it through in my mind

Oh okay.

[T3]

If my world above is correct and there are not 2 scum in the coalition, then there is 1 scum in implosion/DV and I have a somewhat hard time seeing DV as scum, given his fairly frequent towntelling earlier in the game. DV/Klick is certainly possible but the way he treated Dragon is less likely to come from scum, specifically in 874. DV/Appearance is also unlikely given that Appearance was genuinely threatened yesterday, and in a world with DV/fire I'd expect DV to push in Klick/Dragon more today given that implosion would present a real threat to fire

[DragonEater70]

This is already weird because the gamestate seemed to suggest that there was scum in the coalition, and I think Klick may have ignored that because he was the scum in the coalition and did not want to rock the boat.

Elaborate?

Um
You kinda just disproved that with the thing below, but when the coalition was formed in real time I remember being painfully aware of the possibility that there's scum in the coalition, trying to consult Klick who was my top TR at the time, and him sort of being dismissive of it and just letting me boil in my own uncertainty until I reached a coalition I was definitely very unhappy with, said Klick has the final say on what the coalition was, and went to sleep, following which Klick happily sheeped the coalition I was unhappy with.

Then, a coalition with Kyo in it passed. Now if Klick's reads were "I'm fine with any coalition that isn't imp/Kyo" (475), I'd expect him to, well, continue that train of thought considering that a coalition with Kyo failed. Instead, he somehow starts TRing BOTH of these slots due to the coalition failing, even though he had them as partners before that????

This is not very clear-cut at all, given that Klick said a little bit later:

Part of the reason I'm happy with relinquishing responsibility here is because I also feel a little weird about just declaring it {implo, T3, Kyouko} and think that could just mean I'm wrong somewhere

I don't think the somewhere is DV but who knows

That's true, I forgot about that, and I think that's one of the posts that made me want to TR Klick near deadline.