Open 901 - Normal Idea Mafia Redux - Postgame

[JacksonVirgo]

68 is just her acknowledging I said what she was thinking, which happens with me all the time with other people
103 was acknowledging a misunderstanding she had in regards to what I said
893 was just her stating what she thought about the mech surrounding me

I don't really see how any of these are overly straying too close to me to any reasonable degree. I see this as her town-reading me and valuing my slot and what I'm saying much more than maliciously straying too close to me.

[JacksonVirgo]

That answer only confuses me more. Are you talking about what's happened in THIS game? That isn't the expected use of the phrase. You sounded like you were talking about previous games.

Well I'm understanding what he's saying perfectly fine

[Jake The Wolfie]

That answer only confuses me more. Are you talking about what's happened in THIS game? That isn't the expected use of the phrase. You sounded like you were talking about previous games.

-Atalanta

In this game.

If you read my ISO, you would see that I generally scumread Black. At the start of today, Day 3, I also started scumreading Jackson.

This is what I meant when I said that it is known that I scumread both Black and Jackson.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Ima be straight, I got no idea what you're seeing in those posts

What I'm seeing is that whenever Black has interacted with or adjacent to you, she has generally fallen in line with what you've said.

[JacksonVirgo]

I ISO dived them and you pulled pretty much the only quotes that they were obviously referring to my slot in a positive light. One of which you didn't quote the post which they disagreed with me on just prior (and taking about the exact same thing).

I just feel Town has a substantially higher chance of acting entitled because there's no inherent noose dangling over their heads like there is for wolves + they don't feel the need to have a good image

That makes sense, but the last part I don't really agree with. I think certain players feel the need to seem townie when they are town. If people find me as town then I feel like I'm doing something right and the PoE is reduced for the people that townread me, which helps them narrow in on the baddies

You're then ignoring the parts where our reads and thoughts were not aligning by throwing it under "generally". Like the major reads for today excluding Cakez we're in disagreements on. If I were to eyeball a number I'd say the agreement to disagreement ratio is about 50% and she just town-reads me. I don't know where you're seeing something bad with this. I skimmed her ISO for pocket-like statements but I aint seeing much.

[JacksonVirgo]

I think you just scum-read both of us and actively trying to find a link between the two of us to justify a pairing.

[JacksonVirgo]

I think you just scum-read both of us and actively trying to find a link between the two of us to justify a pairing.

Which comes full circle to the rose-tinted glasses analogy

[JacksonVirgo]

Jake can you link a town-game from you

[JacksonVirgo]

Jake can you link a town-game from you

Preferably one with a mech-focused game

[Jake The Wolfie]

Jake can you link a town-game from you

Meta Good?

[JacksonVirgo]

Jake can you link a town-game from you

Meta Good?

Meta bad when using it to scum-case somebody

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm trying to see something in particular

[JacksonVirgo]

I should rephrase, I generally think meta is bad because people often misuse it to a pretty substantial degree. People often try and prove their beliefs directly which is an extremely ineffective way of thinking because it leaves you open to confirmation bias and cherry picking what feels right (because it's what you believe). You need to actively try and disprove what you're feeling, but nobody really does this whenever they meta-dive. I see time and time again that they try and prove themselves right. It doesn't work. There's a reason the scientific method is to DISPROVE your theories instead of just proving them.

It's easier to just say "meta bad" than to explain why

[JacksonVirgo]

I think it was Drew who I said meta was bad to. It was bad in that circumstance because it was not an accurate representation of my scum range, which is what I'm referring to with the cherry picking (which isn't really cherry picking in this circumstance but I lack a better term).

That's how I see meta anyway, hope this isn't another "we should talk about this in a mafia discussions thread" lmfaooo

[Jake The Wolfie]

If you want access to all of my games, you'll need to traverse the forbidden path of my wiki page.

[Argonauts]

I should rephrase, I generally think meta is bad because people often misuse it to a pretty substantial degree. People often try and prove their beliefs directly which is an extremely ineffective way of thinking because it leaves you open to confirmation bias and cherry picking what feels right (because it's what you believe). You need to actively try and disprove what you're feeling, but nobody really does this whenever they meta-dive. I see time and time again that they try and prove themselves right. It doesn't work. There's a reason the scientific method is to DISPROVE your theories instead of just proving them.

It's easier to just say "meta bad" than to explain why

Sorry to break up the J&J party going on here.

But I do kinda agree what you are saying here Jackson, you need to be skeptical when using meta. Don't use it to prove your point per se, use it to to back up the read you have on someone(or to do the opposite........ie, in one game where they were scum they acted like this here.....but I have seen them act differently as scum as well).

That being said, this isn't always the case.......meta can help you catch someone as scum(and more often with me helps me find someone as town). And as I have said, meta hasn't made me find you as town so far(and even have said meta reminds me that you seem somewhat similar to your scum game in mafia has a cop, and doesn't remind you as you were in that last 9:12 game where I was scum).

-Asclepius

Pre Edit: Jackson, imo meta is the best used when applying it to a very similar situation where someones role was known(a back and forth where one game you were scum, and another game where you were town). I was saying your defensiveness seemed more like when you were scum vs the game where you were town.......you seemed more sure of yourself and your read, or at least expressed it better than just lashing out.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Spoiler: In which Black and Jackson Argue

@Black

, since you said I put in words what you were thinking. Thoughts on what I concluded from that? I personally feel reluctant but I do think that realistically that comes from town more than not

@Black

, since you said I put in words what you were thinking. Thoughts on what I concluded from that? I personally feel reluctant but I do think that realistically that comes from town more than not

I've heard people say that a sense of entitlement comes from town but I haven't really put much thought into determining if that's true or not. It makes sense in theory. I feel like scum want to be less combative early on

@Black

, since you said I put in words what you were thinking. Thoughts on what I concluded from that? I personally feel reluctant but I do think that realistically that comes from town more than not

I've heard people say that a sense of entitlement comes from town but I haven't really put much thought into determining if that's true or not. It makes sense in theory. I feel like scum want to be less combative early on

Combative is not the word I'd use to describe this type of read, but yeah in general they would. I just feel Town has a substantially higher chance of acting entitled because there's no inherent noose dangling over their heads like there is for wolves + they don't feel the need to have a good image.

I just feel Town has a substantially higher chance of acting entitled because there's no inherent noose dangling over their heads like there is for wolves + they don't feel the need to have a good image

That makes sense, but the last part I don't really agree with. I think certain players feel the need to seem townie when they are town. If people find me as town then I feel like I'm doing something right and the PoE is reduced for the people that townread me, which helps them narrow in on the baddies

That makes sense, but the last part I don't really agree with. I think certain players feel the need to seem townie when they are town. If people find me as town then I feel like I'm doing something right and the PoE is reduced for the people that townread me, which helps them narrow in on the baddies

Sure I know some townies focus on their image but that isn't really taking from what I'm saying as I'm saying most wolves

do

focus on their image and therefore doing the opposite is townie. It shouldn't really matter if other townies can focus on their image, it doesn't detract from the logic it just matters about the wolves wanting to focus on their image.

Ok yeah I see what you're saying

Here is the argument, in full.

Yes, Black did disagree with you; And at the end of that argument she agreed with you.

[JacksonVirgo]

I should rephrase, I generally think meta is bad because people often misuse it to a pretty substantial degree. People often try and prove their beliefs directly which is an extremely ineffective way of thinking because it leaves you open to confirmation bias and cherry picking what feels right (because it's what you believe). You need to actively try and disprove what you're feeling, but nobody really does this whenever they meta-dive. I see time and time again that they try and prove themselves right. It doesn't work. There's a reason the scientific method is to DISPROVE your theories instead of just proving them.

It's easier to just say "meta bad" than to explain why

Sorry to break up the J&J party going on here.

But I do kinda agree what you are saying here Jackson, you need to be skeptical when using meta. Don't use it to prove your point per se, use it to to back up the read you have on someone(or to do the opposite........ie, in one game where they were scum they acted like this here.....but I have seen them act differently as scum as well).

That being said, this isn't always the case.......meta can help you catch someone as scum(and more often with me helps me find someone as town). And as I have said, meta hasn't made me find you as town so far(and even have said meta reminds me that you seem somewhat similar to your scum game in mafia has a cop, and doesn't remind you as you were in that last 9:12 game where I was scum).

-Asclepius

Pre Edit: Jackson, imo meta is the best used when applying it to a very similar situation where someones role was known(a back and forth where one game you were scum, and another game where you were town). I was saying your defensiveness seemed more like when you were scum vs the game where you were town.......you seemed more sure of yourself and your read, or at least expressed it better than just lashing out.

It

is

always the case, the logic is faulty if you're taking unneeded risk of bias/fallacies but this is just the fallacy fallacy. Just because the logic is faulty, doesn't mean the outcome is inherently wrong. The logic you're using is not taking into account my full town/scum range and thus it's faulty logic but you can still use it but if you use the same logic in a scum game of mine and you're right. You were right, but the logic was still faulty.

[JacksonVirgo]

Right for the wrong reasons etc etc

[JacksonVirgo]

Pre Edit: Jackson, imo meta is the best used when applying it to a very similar situation where someones role was known(a back and forth where one game you were scum, and another game where you were town). I was saying your defensiveness seemed more like when you were scum vs the game where you were town.......you seemed more sure of yourself and your read, or at least expressed it better than just lashing out.

Meta is best used to try and find something you find townie in a scum game of theirs and vice versa. To try and see if your logic is putting you on the right path or leading you down a wrong one. You're seeing a connection where there isn't one because you're not taking the full sample size of how I play into mind. You're seeing a very small portion of games, not acknowledging the range that I actually have and then continuing with that frame of mind.

Which is inherently just faulty logic, I'm not saying to not do that I don't really care but I have to inject that you're not taking my true range to heart when you make arguments such as this so I'm just going to disregard it.

[JacksonVirgo]

Yes, Black did disagree with you; And at the end of that argument she agreed with you.

Great, she agreed with me. Can town not agree with somebody?

[Argonauts]

I should rephrase, I generally think meta is bad because people often misuse it to a pretty substantial degree. People often try and prove their beliefs directly which is an extremely ineffective way of thinking because it leaves you open to confirmation bias and cherry picking what feels right (because it's what you believe). You need to actively try and disprove what you're feeling, but nobody really does this whenever they meta-dive. I see time and time again that they try and prove themselves right. It doesn't work. There's a reason the scientific method is to DISPROVE your theories instead of just proving them.

It's easier to just say "meta bad" than to explain why

Sorry to break up the J&J party going on here.

But I do kinda agree what you are saying here Jackson, you need to be skeptical when using meta. Don't use it to prove your point per se, use it to to back up the read you have on someone(or to do the opposite........ie, in one game where they were scum they acted like this here.....but I have seen them act differently as scum as well).

That being said, this isn't always the case.......meta can help you catch someone as scum(and more often with me helps me find someone as town). And as I have said, meta hasn't made me find you as town so far(and even have said meta reminds me that you seem somewhat similar to your scum game in mafia has a cop, and doesn't remind you as you were in that last 9:12 game where I was scum).

-Asclepius

Pre Edit: Jackson, imo meta is the best used when applying it to a very similar situation where someones role was known(a back and forth where one game you were scum, and another game where you were town). I was saying your defensiveness seemed more like when you were scum vs the game where you were town.......you seemed more sure of yourself and your read, or at least expressed it better than just lashing out.

It

is

always the case, the logic is faulty if you're taking unneeded risk of bias/fallacies but this is just the fallacy fallacy. Just because the logic is faulty, doesn't mean the outcome is inherently wrong. The logic you're using is not taking into account my full town/scum range and thus it's faulty logic but you can still use it but if you use the same logic in a scum game of mine and you're right. You were right, but the logic was still faulty.

Listen, if we are gonna argue if meta is good or bad......acting like your own self meta is infallible is just plain wrong at best, and manipulative at worst.

YOU don't know when you are giving clues to your play and alignment most of the time, no matter how hard you try to stay in your town range. Everyone gives clues to their alignment in every game, and the more you play with a person the more you will pick up on said clues(obviously with some people it is harder than others).

I am using a very specific meta read, one game where you were scum and one game where you were town.......and saying how much more defensive you were in your scum game than your town game(which btw, in the scum game there was no real risk of you being limmed at that point, most people town read you besides me at that point).....whereas the town game of yours it literally was lylo, and you played it way more cool.

You can act like you have some amazing range as either alignment, and I won't dispute that, but many times you don't realize how you act in very specific situations.

That is the main part of why meta can be great in these specific situations......where it takes an outside perspective from someone who was right there with you, to see that might be pulling the wool over our eyes.

-Asclepius

[Jake The Wolfie]

Yes, Black did disagree with you; And at the end of that argument she agreed with you.

Great, she agreed with me. Can town not agree with somebody?

^{No, never. Town must always be unique.}

That's not the point I was making. It's one part of a larger case.

[JacksonVirgo]

Like if I were to go further into why comparing a small amount of games to my alignment is that I was an extremely demotivated scum in the mafia has a cop as my partner literally claimed a slot that doomed her and I wasn't in the position where I could control the Town that well which made it worse with an already shitty period in my life that I just couldn't really handle properly. And you're comparing that, to a game where I am highly motivated and enjoying the living hell out a game. It's not really a fair comparison.

The reference to my town game is also ignoring the fact that it's a different game with a different perspective. My feelings change, and just because it's the same alignment doesn't mean I have to do a carbon copy of my behaviour. I like switching things up, I like experimenting with what works and what doesn't. It's not fair to compare these things, but I'm also not expecting you to brush up on your JV encyclopedia. This is just me talking "mafia theory" I guess and saying that you

are

not looking at my slot with as wide a lens that I would like.

[Argonauts]

the fallacy fallacy.

See, this is why I said Jackson has posted most of the words in this game.

-Atalanta