Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]

[fireisredsir]

at the time when he said he voted dragon after he read my case i was like yeah!!

and thinking about that now im like hmm

[Prism]

Vote Count 2.4

Player	Votes
fireisredsir (2)	DeasVail (1201), Klick (1253)
DragonEater70 (1)	T3 (1295)
Not Voting (4)	implosion, fireisredsir, Appearance, DragonEater70 (1262)

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 votes to eliminate.

No elimination has been achieved. The Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2024-02-02 12:30:00).

[DragonEater70]

Wow happy birthday Klick (I guess in UK there's still 1:30 hours but I'll be definitely be sleeping by then)

[DragonEater70]

Like I could see why a town player could be frustrated with this day phase because I am very frustrated with it, but I just don't think this is a frustration town!Klick has from seeing his reaction to TvT's in previous games.

i am confused by this take because i don't think Klick's perspective here has been that it is a TvT so im not sure why you're making that comparison

Klick is currently not voting me and in fact last time I checked said something to the effect of "I agree that if fireisred is not scum then the team could be Dragon/DV, but I don't think either is scum", while around the same time he did mention not wanting to think about my alignment etc.

So that's what I mean when I say he's being frustrated by a TvT.

[DragonEater70]

Just to clarify, I am saying that Klick has been acting like he thinks Dragon/Klick is TvT, not Klick/fire or Dragon/fire or some other interaction.

[DragonEater70]

while i am here i will also just throw out there that if it isn't dragon i am mildly worried that t3 could have been trying to pocket me/prop up my push earlier

What makes you feel that way?

[fireisredsir]

Just to clarify, I am saying that Klick has been acting like he thinks Dragon/Klick is TvT, not Klick/fire or Dragon/fire or some other interaction.

oh i see, i thought you were talking about you/me, thats why i was confused

[DragonEater70]

So like IDK

Am I supposed to be TRing both of you and then compromise on Appearance and then be very very sad if he flips town since we'd be back at square 1?

[DragonEater70]

Just to clarify, I am saying that Klick has been acting like he thinks Dragon/Klick is TvT, not Klick/fire or Dragon/fire or some other interaction.

oh i see, i thought you were talking about you/me, thats why i was confused

I figured which is why I clarified

[fireisredsir]

while i am here i will also just throw out there that if it isn't dragon i am mildly worried that t3 could have been trying to pocket me/prop up my push earlier

What makes you feel that way?

a lot of his posts about me kinda feel that way, but in particular i don't really think my 1285 would be especially convincing to anyone else, so it's a little strange that he voted for you after reading it

[fireisredsir]

So like IDK

Am I supposed to be TRing both of you and then compromise on Appearance and then be very very sad if he flips town since we'd be back at square 1?

that was originally what i was trying to avoid lol

[DragonEater70]

Sorry I'll reply later, going to sleep

[Appearance]

happy bday, klick!

[Appearance]

i think ppl should vote

ok.
VOTE: fire

[Appearance]

they should be on e-1 now.
assuming i didn't accidentally hammer.

[fireisredsir]

why do you think im scum?

[T3]

This sucks

[T3]

It especially sucks that my reasons for townreading fire are purely personal and subjective and thus are no use to convince other people

[Appearance]

why do you think im scum?

in all honesty, it's mostly poe based.

[implosion]

I don't think you are gonna get more from Appearance tbh

yeah, so it seems.

Dragon, is there anything else you care about today before I hammer?

[fireisredsir]

i would like to not be hammered actually yet thanks

Spoiler: quotes

Implo can you post a reads list perchance?

Within the coalition, Dragon > Klick > fire >> Appearance >> Dunn. I think Klick's engagement going down is a little bit of a knock against him but not enough to want to re-evaluate at all. I like fire's posting and gamestate interaction and it feels viscerally like how I remember his towngame feeling. I think the order of the top 3 could change if you ask me at a different time of day though.

I think App+Dunn is a very viable scumteam, I haven't thought too closely outside of the coalition today but I thought Elements was quite town and still think you're town though I also sympathize with people who say they have no idea how to distinguish you throwing reads out there as town vs as scum. I think the trajectory you've gone on today would be really weird as scum though. Then DV (who I've kind of forgotten about some but don't really care to think about his alignment deeply until we find scum on coalition) then T3 (who can like always just be scum here but I think is less likely to be scum than having 2 on coalition)

I think both fire and T3's interpretations of the kill are reasonable at a glance. I'm not sure who Appearance would have shot though, DV or me is the obvious choice but it's possible it would have seemed too auspicious or off chance it's possible they're both scum and think they can keep me in the lim pool. But if Appearance is scum then it feels like there's basically no utility in shooting gob unless it's Appearance+Dragon which I doubt. It might just mean that fire is scum though I don't think fire as scum would be specifically afraid of gob.

I think there's a good chance that different scum players in this setup would view shooting on-coalition differently, which makes NK spec somewhat tricky. It's possible that some scum players in this setup would just avoid shooting on coalition no matter what. I think if I were scum in this setup in general I'd be fairly loath to shoot on coalition. It's possible DV is scum thinking along those lines but I think if DV were scum maybe he would have just shot Dragon anyway. And also we're still limming on coalition anyway and gob dying does not preclude there being 2 scum on coalition as a possibility. It might even be an indicator that way that scum need to find more people to shoot off coalition.

This is all very waffly and I think the conclusion is that I need to try again to actually directly read Appearance's play.

I would like to hear from Appearance what his current read on the scum in coalition is given the flip, and if he has any strong views on partnerships or generally what angle he's viewing solving the game from at this point.

I've caught up.

I'm a bit tired of thinking about DragonEater's alignment in this game in general. Because there's a lack of clarity as to his perceived and actual scum range, and I haven't a clue what a DragonEater scum game would actually look like if he drew red here. Contrast that with feeling like I know what a fire scum game would look like - very similar to a town one, and what we're seeing currently. This description encapsulates why I am uncertain here.

I feel sort of rotationally similar to this, in that I think I'm being convinced that I have a pretty murky picture of what a DragonEater scum game would look like but I think I do know what his town game would look like if he had drawn green here and it's pretty much this picture. I am remembering that fire is a player I have historically figured that I probably just can't read well at all. I feel like fire's reasons for "this could be Dragon's scum game" in 1285 are in essence compelling reasons for exactly that, that the way Dragon played around the coalition is not a reason to locktown Dragon because it can come from Dragon-scum. But "this thing people are locktowning Dragon for could come from Dragon as scum" is not strictly a reason to scumread Dragon, and it's not even necessarily an argument that that thing Dragon did isn't on net more likely to come from him as town than as scum. I feel like the wholistic read of Dragon's ISO at this point just makes it hard for me to believe that it's not his town game, and it's possible that

i

am town tunneling him but things like him calling T3 scum for taking 4 minutes to read a post and his (I agree with fire here) very uninspiring logic in 1348 are, I think, also evidence of him being town because I just don't understand what reasons he has to post those things as scum. The former just alienates T3 if T3 is town and looks really weird and attention-draw-y if they're scum together, the latter is the kind of thing that I feel is very easy to post when you have the brazenness of actually being town and very hard to decide to post when you're in this public 1v1 as scum and you're trying to play the crowd or whatever. Bad logic is probably pretty correlated with being town, in practice, because town is on average less self-critical about what they're posting.

Basically I think I haven't seen any good reason why Dragon wouldn't have made any of the posts he's made as town.

I think fire is the best lim. I ideally would like to get some life out of Appearance before day end but I know he's V/LA.

implosion who do you plan to vote rn?

I think fire is the best lim.

I think fire/t3 is perfectly viable but also I don't think someone "needs" to have a viable partner to be a good lim, I think in a world where there are 5 people who could theoretically be a partner, even if there were good reasons to discount all 5 of them, the summation of those 5 reasons would not amount to a good reason to not lim the person, especially since a coalition game gives scum plenty of opportunities to potentially make plays that rule out their partnership.

I'm mostly not voting right now because I still would like more from Appearance ideally but I'm not opposed to ending the day for the sake of moving things forward if people are feeling like they want a flip.

I don't think you are gonna get more from Appearance tbh

yeah, so it seems.

Dragon, is there anything else you care about today before I hammer?

implo i would like to hear more about your thought progression on appearance

it seems like you originally suspected him, then thought maybe he was unlikely to kill gob but said it was waffly and that you had to read his play, then a couple posts waiting for him to post more, and that's kinda all you've said

it feels like when the rest of us took him off the table you did so as well but i don't see where your actual read changed to motivate that

most of your posting this phase was about affirming your townread on dragon which feels very reactive to the current gamestate of the me/dragon/klick mess rather than looking into what was previously your top scumread

[DragonEater70]

Someone unvote fire please

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

[Klick]

I'll have another look through Appearance in a couple hours

[DragonEater70]

I won't