Mafia Reunion | Postgame

[Flavor Leaf]

Flavor, please type out your list of info day by day please. I hate repeating myself.

Will do later

There’s already a post in my iso but quick mobile posting until tonight

[Flavor Leaf]

Flavor, why can't you and Drew be the groupscum?

I mean from an outside pov, I think that’s fine. I know it’s not true, though, so having me answer that is weird

I feel like I’ve said multiple times this day phase that Drew or Dan have groupscum in them.

I even started pushing Drew/Aureal as a potential pairing.

I think Theta/Roden make me feel only one of them are scum, and that if Roden is scum then he is converted.

Unless Theta/Roden are both the group scum.

I have said multiple times this game I believe a group scum to be in the FG, and that they were converting within the FG.

I was proven correct.

I am leaning Dan over Drew, though right now

[Flavor Leaf]

Maestro does not make sense to play that way in a townDan world.

[Flavor Leaf]

Flavor, why can't you and Drew be the groupscum?

I mean from an outside pov, I think that’s fine. I know it’s not true, though, so having me answer that is weird

I feel like I’ve said multiple times this day phase that Drew or Dan have groupscum in them.

I even started pushing Drew/Aureal as a potential pairing.

I think Theta/Roden make me feel only one of them are scum, and that if Roden is scum then he is converted.

Unless Theta/Roden are both the group scum.

I have said multiple times this game I believe a group scum to be in the FG, and that they were converting within the FG.

I was proven correct.

I am leaning Dan over Drew, though right now

Roden group scum doesn't work with Hu's result.

Also if we are down to 1 miselim, traitors can do that.

We like can’t let them fall on a sword for group scum either.

A flip on converted is a loss

[Flavor Leaf]

Tomorrow would be 5-3, then if group scum is hit tomorrow

Wait, I don’t see how it’s end game on a converted flip

[Flavor Leaf]

it is an eventual loss for town if traitors continue to be the lim
you have to hit group scum to win

What do you mean I have to hit them?

You don’t?

[Flavor Leaf]

that is what i have been stuck on
if roden did the conversion last night i know what most of the team is then
if roden was converted instead then
no clue

I'll humor you. What is it in the other scenario?

as i have said before
it would be roden + flavor leaf group scum
with hu tao being the conversion night one

I think this gets debunked when you see that on Day 2 I wanted Maestro and Dan, and Roden was pushing for Maestro over Dan, helping to lean it that way.

Even though Maestro clearly fell on the sword.

So I think Dan, Roden, Hu Tao makes more sense than a Flavor Roden Hu Tao.

[Flavor Leaf]

Flavor, why isn't it that y'all were pushing on Dan town but there weren't enough scum to join so we got two traitors back to back?

Eh?

When have I said Dan was town?

I believe Maestro fell on the sword for Dan.

[Flavor Leaf]

You can tell Roden at the very least got converted based on their flip of Dan and I after the exact thing I was pushing ended up being true.

VOTE: Dan

I’m there. Dan/Roden, Roden clearly got converted.

[Flavor Leaf]

Roden, pleeeeeease explain why you don't think it could be Dan. I feel like it's obvious that there was groupscum in FG at this point. Trying to get the group set up as a private scum party by getting rid of or converting all the town would open up a lot of options for scum that wouldn't otherwise be able to communicate with each other.

The way Roden flipped Dan and I after Dan proved to be wrong and I proved to be right with scum converting in FG + Theta’s conversion track, I think Roden is always just converted here.

I think scum might have been okay with Roden getting guiltied, as converted, because like Aureal did the math, I’m sure scum did too, and it leads to a win if converted Roden is flipped.

So not a bad play really, and it eased pressure off of Dan with converting Roden.

[Flavor Leaf]

I don't think it's Dan or Aureal and these deals are making my stomach do flips

Theta goofing up her fake result makes me think she got converted, it's too bold yet also too poorly made to come from group scum

Drew and Thomith could possibly be converted but I don't think it's possible for them to be group scum due to their roles

Leaf, JV, Titus, and Hu Tao are my suspect pool

This is just clearly a scum claim.

[Flavor Leaf]

Flavor, why isn't it that y'all were pushing on Dan town but there weren't enough scum to join so we got two traitors back to back?

I was pushing Maestro more than Dan the first half of Day 2, and felt specifically like Maestro was following Dan.

I think Maestro was the Night 1 conversion, and we know for a fact that Dan knew the name.

Day 2 Dan came in protecting the entirety of the FG and kinda tried pushing it like a masonry.

And it is now confirmed to have at the very least 50% scum (not counting NK15)

Maestro as a conversion means Maestro would have been a fake guilty, and I think a Group Scum in the FG would give a true guilty as well, bring in Dan.

And remember, almost half this game has a chance to be scum now, my name has never been outed, neither has Titus, or Thomith. And i think that raises the likelihood of there not being scum in there. In theory, there could be a group scum or a random conversion early, but I don’t think so.

All of our roles fit the setup coming from original town imo, and force us to play weirdly if converted.

[Flavor Leaf]

Leaf you seem terrified right now

Why would I be terrified if I were scum in this position?

If I’m scum, I would have nearly 50% of the game backing me up, that’s an easy victory.

If I were scum here, in a 4 scum world, literally all 6 townies would have to vote me for me to be out, so I could only lose as scum if scum bussed.

So i don’t think that holds any merit frankly

[Flavor Leaf]

Like I’m sorry, it’s just impossible for a scumMe to lose in this situation imo.

That’s why i feel im clearly town based on me being correct about scum in FG among many other things imo.

But I feel like you’re obviously converted here, so

[Flavor Leaf]

Roden, pleeeeeease explain why you don't think it could be Dan. I feel like it's obvious that there was groupscum in FG at this point. Trying to get the group set up as a private scum party by getting rid of or converting all the town would open up a lot of options for scum that wouldn't otherwise be able to communicate with each other.

If Dan is scum then he'd have to immediately recruit Drew in order to safely recruit the others. Under the assumption that Maestro was the initial Addict, Cakez and Theta/me have also been recruited. That doesn't leave any room for Drew to have been recruited on any of the Days due to confirmed actions.

The only way for Dan to be group scum is if Drew is also group scum or is the actual initial Addict, which doesn't make any fucking sense. Mechanically that feels wrong, and their day play would instantly win a Scummies nomination because of their scum theatre.

This pushes the idea of Maestro being OG addict when Cakez is like obviously OG addict, and Maestro was a clear conversion.

Maestro was also arguing and shading me all game, so if you think that’s how a conversion acts to someone

And Dan actively stated he targeted Maestro on Night 1 as well.

Roden, if you’re town, this is you defending Yessiree again.

[Flavor Leaf]

DO NOT LET RODEN FALL ON THE SWORD FOR GROUP SCUM

i repeat

Do not let Roden fall on the sword for group scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

If I'm converted then why didn't Theta see me self-watch? Do you think I lied about being able to do that as town?

I barely know what any of your roles are.

Why are you asking me mech questions?

Do you self target every night? I thought you stated you didn’t get to do it anymore. If you’re town coming after me instead of Theta, that just is an absolute terrible look, and that’s why I’m not believing you.

[Flavor Leaf]

Your 2981 also makes no sense.

First, Cakez is basically confirmed as OG traitor.

It’s also a GIANT TELL that you chose to blanket vote after I proved your post wrong rather than engaging with it.

We know Maestro was converted.

We know Dan actively targeted Maestro.

Maestro AND Cakez both followed Dan onto Radical Rat.

Maestro fell on the sword for Dan so Dan wouldn’t die.

Dan was actively stating there was no scum in the FG.

I was actively stating there was a group scum in the FG, also possibly traitor, and that scum would convert in there.

I was one of the BIGGEST pushers of scum in the FG, and you’re pushing like I was actively throwing people into the water, when you know how anti-bus I am.

I only bus when I have to.

[Flavor Leaf]

Off top of the head


Flavor changes on conversion

Scum had traitor addict

On convert, players become addicts

Converts through Real Names

I think i had one more

[Flavor Leaf]

Scum had an unstoppable conversion too

[Flavor Leaf]

@Flavor, didn't the whole FG push it like a masonry?

Drew didn’t, I don’t think. I think I remember Drew saying he specifically thought scum was in there.

Maestro was weird about it.

Following Dan completely, but they also pushed RR because RR pushed it like a pseudo masonry.

[Flavor Leaf]

Do i think you lied about that as town?

Probably not, but would your action even show up?

Idk why im getting targeted for that, I was clearly saying Theta or Roden always has scum in the pair because of it

Right now, it’s looking like you because your defense of Dan makes no sense up against the mountains of evidence for a scum Dan, and Theta has little reason to lie about that in that scenario.

Tinfoiling a little bit of Theta/Roden now if I’m being honest specifically for this weird argument that you’re trying to make that with the self watch.

Selling a group scum as converted makes sense, so think.

I also clearly didn’t know the math for this game, and not knowing shit in a game is an obv town FL tell.

I know everything when I’m scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

You specifically said the role was only once on Day 3.

I remember cuz this was a big point of Thomith and I town read you that day and a big part of it was because Thomith said the 1 shot role was worded that way

[Flavor Leaf]

And again, if it’s wrong

WHY ARE YOU TALKING TO ME ABOUT IT AND NOT PUSHING THETA

[Flavor Leaf]

Dan being the only one stoic in the face of that chaos kinda implies that this was planned and Dan knew what to expect

If this was to save Aureal, uh first off I was wrong, she actually only had three votes, not four. But it would be weird because Maestro was voting Aureal before pulling shenanigans.

This is Roden on Maestro when Maestro fell on the sword.

[Flavor Leaf]

Like i had cleared Roden completely by mid Day 3.

And now a drastic shift in play has happened, and aligned right with a conversion.

And he chose to push the person pushing the scum leader, someone Roden also agreed was happening on Day 3, so no, you weren’t town reading Dan for days now, it’s at most one day phase in Day 4 because Day 3 you were clearly agreeing what Maestro was doing.

You, me, and Thomith spent that entire end of the day talking it over and feeling it out.

[Flavor Leaf]

Dan being the only one stoic in the face of that chaos kinda implies that this was planned and Dan knew what to expect

If this was to save Aureal, uh first off I was wrong, she actually only had three votes, not four. But it would be weird because Maestro was voting Aureal before pulling shenanigans.

This is Roden on Maestro when Maestro fell on the sword.

Are you intentionally ignoring the part where I believed Dan was scum at that point, and then explained why I changed my mind the following day?

I don’t remember Day 4 that much fwiw.

[Flavor Leaf]

I know Dan pushed Hu Tao, Titus pushed Cakez, Hu Tao and JV quick hammered Cakez.

That’s really all I remember from Day 4. I got busy irl, and played on auto pilot

[Flavor Leaf]

Then explain why you said you could only use it once?

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s one of the biggest issues I’m seeing right now.

[Flavor Leaf]

I have no WIM in this game so vote me out if you want

I only had one shot and apparently misread my role PM, I assumed "once during the Day" meant I could reveal my stream one time each Day, not once ever in the entire game

I wasn't converted, probably because scum also believed I could reveal my self watch each day, but yeah

For whatever reason though, I could still stream last night since the mod confirmed my self-watch

My one shot ability in my PM is worded the same way so I trust this I think?

So you have a self watch? So you can say if you got targeted by something or not?

I don’t think that counts as a targeting ability, that feels passive.

[Flavor Leaf]

I was definitely seeing your role as just 1-shot.

I don’t think you have a targeting role since it’s day.

I just don’t feel like you’re coming at this with good faith right now personally.

And I see the possibility of you being upset about getting converted.

Hu Tao shadowing you probably had a big reasoning for it, either scum hoped you could get Hu Tao vote to follow you somewhere or Hu Tao group scum.

Hu Tao would be a scum investigative.

I will say, my role is effectively a gated conversion only cop.

Hu Tao would have gotten a fake inno on Cakez, which could have been very damning, and they are limited in a way. I can kind of see that as a town role too, it’s kind of like a flip of mine.

[Flavor Leaf]

If Aureal stopped scumclaiming, I could vote for Dan.

Aureal is specifically group scum, if scum, and scum with Drew, or I guess Theta if Roden is telling the truth.

[Flavor Leaf]

Roden, pleeeeeease explain why you don't think it could be Dan. I feel like it's obvious that there was groupscum in FG at this point. Trying to get the group set up as a private scum party by getting rid of or converting all the town would open up a lot of options for scum that wouldn't otherwise be able to communicate with each other.

If Dan is scum then he'd have to immediately recruit Drew in order to safely recruit the others. Under the assumption that Maestro was the initial Addict, Cakez and Theta/me have also been recruited. That doesn't leave any room for Drew to have been recruited on any of the Days due to confirmed actions.

Eh? Theta doesn't have to have been recruited if they recruited you last night, she's just telling the truth about a conversion action occuring in regard to you. Even if she was possibly the one doing it.

Cakez initial addict
convert Maestro Night 1 (doesn't sound like they knew each others' abilities yet or I expect he'd go for Drew first, yes)
convert Drew night 2 maybe?
no conversion Night 3 due to dance party
convert you Night 4

I see no issues with this sequence

Why would group scum lock themselves into a 1v1 with me?

This also doesn't take into account how Hu Tao claimed her slot was targeted on N1 and no one claimed to target her

I know because of Maestro’s flavor change that Hu Tao isn’t converted, at least by Night 2.

If Hu Tao is scum, it’s group scum or Night 4 conversion only.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Roden - mod did say a night resolution wasn’t correct.

Do you think it’s possible your role was the reason for that?

I don’t want to go too deep with that, but idk. I don’t trust you right now at all.

You say I’m not listening, but you’re blank waing the Dan case, which even if you town read Dan, you gotta be able to see the case there

[Flavor Leaf]

Yep.

And being potential Converted is strong right now.

Like a Groupscum can try and act like they were converted based on the fact they would win anyways.

[Flavor Leaf]

So we’re in a do you believe Theta or believe Roden situation.

Roden can only be converted scum, unless Hu Tao is also Group Scum, so i don’t see the purpose of Theta lying

I haven’t liked Roden’s play this day phase, though

[Flavor Leaf]

it ain't me. :shrug:

[Flavor Leaf]

i standby there is a group scum in Dan/Drew basically 100% of the time.

their roles put them in a situation where they can just target each other every night and become untouchable bar the unstoppable action, but I always thought that was weird.

[Flavor Leaf]

i standby there is a group scum in Dan/Drew basically 100% of the time.

their roles put them in a situation where they can just target each other every night and become untouchable bar the unstoppable action, but I always thought that was weird.

Setup wise I have always been 1 in 1 out.

yeah, and maestro/cakez were clearly following within the FG. Evident mostly with RR.

[Flavor Leaf]

I also like actively defended NK15 AND Radical, albeit turning on RR when I saw E-1 because his flip helped confirm FG was leading it there. Then it lead to a double Addict phase the next couple days.

[Flavor Leaf]

Flavor, what do you think of the odds Maestro was the n1 convert? A new person was coming into the slot and would have no background to be traced.

isnt that the night Dan targeted Maestro? I specifically think Maestro was targeted that night. And what happened Day 2? They all followed Dan on Radical Rat.

This day sucks because scum are going to do everything they can to protect the group scum member. If it's 4, and scum don't bus, we specifically have to have all 6 town on a group scum to fade them, and that's incredibly difficult. We have to force scum to bus or literally all come together.

[Flavor Leaf]

i dont see a world where both Roden and Theta are town here.

Im getting pretty comfortable with Titus Town here, and that means Theta/Dan/Aureal have at most one scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

So in a world where Theta is scum, is it Theta/Drew/Hu Tao as scum? Maybe with JV? Hu Tao can only be group scum if scum, same with Aureal.

[Flavor Leaf]

Theta/Drew or Dan/Roden are the two strongest pairings in my head right now, I think. I still think it's just Dan Group scum. The players revolving around Dan were definitely trying to discredit me and turn the gamestate to a world where I can get misfaded, which I feel is a big sign I was going in the right direction this game.

[Flavor Leaf]

Whattya mean if

[Flavor Leaf]

For what it’s worth, I didn’t read the dance party thread really.

I was burnt out from this game + 2/3 other games where I was going a little too much at the time.

Hu Tao was in all of those games, and they’re all ended now. But I was over the top in those games, and I said I was actively burnt out I believe in that thread.

I went to night in like 3 games at once, which was my time to chill.

I think the first of those games ended right before that time. So I’m not entirely sure the timeline, i just know i needed a break.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’ll check what you were talking about a little bit later. I’ve been on the go posting a lot this week

[Flavor Leaf]

The Cop is not going to come out and claim an inno when nobody knows who they are yet

No but they could crumb one without revealing. I'd say there are two competing motives for a cop in this game. 1) Hold your innocent results so that if converted you don't have to out them. 2) Make sure you can be believed when you do. Much like a normal game the cop risks death if not outing results which means crumbing them becomes important. Same here.

---

FL your Dan/Roden(convert) pairing is still awkward with Titus town. You would be left with having to select 2 of Thomith JV Hu as group scum and 2nd convert. So what's your best guess?

Did I pair Dan/Roden?

I believe you, just im having trouble all around remembering.

Thomith isn’t group scum. I don’t think JV makes sense either, so in that scenario, maybe Hu Tao.

But maybe that doesn’t work, so that eases that a bit

[Flavor Leaf]

I am also novice and non consecutive with my action, and it is not labeled as that, so I tend to believe JV is telling the truth, and there aren’t more missing coffee actions that went unclaimed, if that’s even a thing people were thinking about.

[Flavor Leaf]

Just looked over the PT that was made from Thomith’s role after Maestro fade

lol, on post 90 i feel like i made it clear i hadn’t read the thread, and didn’t plan to during that night

I never read it until now, so if any of yall were talking to me about things that happened in there, i definitely had no clue what you were talking about.

This adds a bit more to the Theta/Roden stuff cuz I was not aware of any of Roden’s self watching action stuff

I feel that is abundantly clear based on how i was interacting with Roden

[Flavor Leaf]

I might have like quick skimmed times i made a post or two, but i definitely wasn’t actively reading

[Flavor Leaf]

I guess I posted a little bit on every page, but i had one group of posting on it, one check up early page 3, then i didn’t post until end of page 4 when i said i had stepped away.

I was burnt at the time, still kind of am, and have been a bit on auto pilot.

But I’m kind of jumbled here. I don’t like cult games and thinking about possible conversions. There’s too much mech.

[Flavor Leaf]

I still lean Dan group scum, but I’m not all that confident in it right now.

[Flavor Leaf]

My main safety nets are Thomith and Titus based on general gut feeling right now, and how they both have played up until this point.

There are some teams I tinfoil Titus on, but I’m going off gut with her.

I’ve been scum with her a lot, and I feel like if she were scum here, I’d feel it more than just a possible tinfoil.

[Flavor Leaf]

I am also novice and non consecutive with my action, and it is not labeled as that, so I tend to believe JV is telling the truth, and there aren’t more missing coffee actions that went unclaimed, if that’s even a thing people were thinking about.

Who did you check n4?

Aureal. I claimed it when i came in, and why Aureal and Hu Tao can’t be converted scum based on my info from today.

[Flavor Leaf]

I am also novice and non consecutive with my action, and it is not labeled as that, so I tend to believe JV is telling the truth, and there aren’t more missing coffee actions that went unclaimed, if that’s even a thing people were thinking about.

Who did you check n4?

Aureal. I claimed it when i came in, and why Aureal and Hu Tao can’t be converted scum based on my info from today.

Ok. I think you're wrong on Hu Tao. "Don't get caught" = scum converted imo.

I am in a world where Maestro was the n1 converted and Gamma/Hu Tao was the n2 convert. Roden or Theta is the n4 convert and the other town. Doesn't solve group scum but it gets us closer.

We need to identify who is good and narrow down patterns.

Can you say Aureal's flavor FL?
Sorry if the mech is overload.

Says multiple lines about obsessing over autographs, or like crazed fan kinda thing and then she will follow him to their doom.

I don’t think it says the word obsessing, but it’s like those 4-5 lines, first half chants about wanting autographs, last says the follow to their doom

[Flavor Leaf]

Will let you know

I originally thought it wouldn’t effect conversion, but knowing coffee isn’t forever, it could be a thing scum try to get for their actions.

Getting an extra action is nice even if it doesn’t, though.

I feel like my targeting of Hu Tao slot after Gamma claimed Ascetic doesn’t make sense as a scum move.

I only did it because I had the 2nd action too.

[Flavor Leaf]

Roden is clearly converted.

I’m not against the idea of Hu Tao being a Real Name cop, who if targeted the same night, doesn’t get an action THAT NIGHT, which means Night 2 I just prevented their action, and then Hu Tao is group, and they were setting up Roden to be converted later.

Roden feels like he had a drastic change over the days, and it feels like converted.

[Flavor Leaf]

Why aren't you voting Theta?

Aureal, this is wrong. It's very very likely Dan or Drew.

Yes, it's Dan or Drew. And Theta.

Roden is clearly converted.

I’m not against the idea of Hu Tao being a Real Name cop, who if targeted the same night, doesn’t get an action THAT NIGHT, which means Night 2 I just prevented their action, and then Hu Tao is group, and they were setting up Roden to be converted later.

Roden feels like he had a drastic change over the days, and it feels like converted.

Come on man, I don't need more of your wild spun theories about how flavor could indicate evil. Let's get Theta and resolve Dan/Drew tomorrow.

What do you mean? I literally got the information that said Addict's flavor gets changed and you acknowledge the post I said that in.

[Flavor Leaf]

Theta cant be with Dan unless Titus is also scum, and I dont think Titus is scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

Why aren't you voting Theta?

Aureal, this is wrong. It's very very likely Dan or Drew.

Yes, it's Dan or Drew. And Theta.

Roden is clearly converted.

I’m not against the idea of Hu Tao being a Real Name cop, who if targeted the same night, doesn’t get an action THAT NIGHT, which means Night 2 I just prevented their action, and then Hu Tao is group, and they were setting up Roden to be converted later.

Roden feels like he had a drastic change over the days, and it feels like converted.

Come on man, I don't need more of your wild spun theories about how flavor could indicate evil. Let's get Theta and resolve Dan/Drew tomorrow.

also, I didnt mention flavor once in the post you are replying to, so i dont get the purpose of that post.

[Flavor Leaf]

Theta cant be with Dan unless Titus is also scum, and I dont think Titus is scum.

Correct. Whether Titus is converted is not something I have a confident answer to at the moment.

okay, yeah, i'm staying where i'm at.

im gonna actually use my reads, which have been proven to be right most of this game, to steer me in the right direction.

im am leaning Titus town here, and Dan scum, so Theta doesnt make sense as scum for me here.

[Flavor Leaf]

and the fact that people are fighting against it so hard does nothing but help reassure ive been on the right track this game.

[Flavor Leaf]

if you want to make a case for Drew, so be it, but i believe Dan and Roden being both scum is the most likely

[Flavor Leaf]

Isn't CONVERTED.

She can be group scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

i literally said the same thing about you.

You and Hu Tao cannot be converted. If either of you are scum, you're group scum, and I feel I've been very clear about this?

How would my action mean that either of you couldn't be scum at all?!?

[Flavor Leaf]

that's your misunderstanding at fault here.

[Flavor Leaf]

and i dont think i started saying any of that until this day phase, ya know, when i got that info?

i may have been town reading Hu Tao, and I'm still not necessarily seeing them as always scum here by any means, not even in my top 2. but they could be.

so it feels like you're pushing a hard false narrative here.

[Flavor Leaf]

Hu Tao is in like barely any of my main theories of the game, so really outta left field push you have here.

[Flavor Leaf]

maybe not barely any, but im really not that focused on Hu Tao right now.

[Flavor Leaf]

Let's get Theta and resolve Dan/Drew tomorrow.

so here's the thing that doesn't add up with what you're asking of me.

You know I think it's Dan. Dan and Theta can only be scum together if Titus is also scum, meaning I'd have to think the exact scum team is Dan/Theta/Titus + probably 1 more. I don't really think that right now.

By going Theta today and resolving Drew/Dan tomorrow, if Theta flips town, there is no tomorrow, and DanScum wins.

I also absolutely despise the 'Let it resolve' mentality in situations like this, ask Drew, Roden, and Hu Tao how I feel about people saying to let it resolve. Makes me want to resolve things immediately.

[Flavor Leaf]

so this is a really weird push by Aureal, and I'm gonna have to rethink some things after this.

[Flavor Leaf]

Like in my head, Aureal and I were on the same page most of this game, so the strong defense of Dan here is strange. (idc about semantics about not defending Dan, by trying to save them from a fade in favor of another letting it resolve is in itself a defense).

There is no explanation for Maestro playing the way they did if Dan was town. That was anti-win con in that scenario bar a plan of doing exactly that. Frankly, I don't see Maestro doing that.

Maestro and Cakez, both non Group Scum, followed Dan's push on Radical Rat blindly, and attacked both me and RR for coming after the FG.

Dan actively has been pushing a narrative of a clean Friendship Group. This has proven to be untrue.

Dan has confirmed that he had targeted Maestro the same night Maestro is most likely to have been converted.

FG had access to a select few names/roles at the expense of having to outguess where Drew would target.

Dan made it so that the rest of the FG didn't need to out themselves on Day 2, yet Maestro/Cakez followed hard, and while it wasn't confirmed until Day 3, it became very obvious Day 2 it was them in the FG.

Not Known 15's role would have outed a Group scum immediately. This is a strong reason for Maestro to get flipped first to show that that could have been the initial traitor, something Dan was actively trying to push as likely factual. This helped get A LOT of pressure off of Dan, even though the Maestro flip should have immediately condemned him. IN ADDITION TO CONVERSION DYING BETTER THAN GROUP SCUM, THIS IS YET ANOTHER REASON IT MADE SENSE FOR MAESTRO TO FALL ON THE SWORD. I don't believe Maestro knew of that, though. But Dan pushing Maestro as original traitor thereafter is a big reason why he is likely group scum.

Cakez flipping the role he did, something that GROUP SCUM COULDNT HAVE KNOWN, outed him as the original traitor.

[Flavor Leaf]

i literally said the same thing about you.

You and Hu Tao cannot be converted. If either of you are scum, you're group scum, and I feel I've been very clear about this?

How would my action mean that either of you couldn't be scum at all?!?

You think groupscum Hu Tao comes into the game, promptly softs Gamma's N1 inno result, then manages to quickly come up with a fakeclaim that explains her flavor and actions when she shouldn't have even been expecting to be called on it because of the ascetic claim? It sounds like her flavor is written much like mine, with some slightly sinister undertones, which feels like the mod intentionally trying to make the flavor cop look askance at us.

IM NOT FUCKING CALLING HU TAO GROUP SCUM ALL I SAID IS SHE COULD BE

[Flavor Leaf]

and frankly, I have a damn good case on Dan, full stop, and I'm tired of people acting like I have no reason for it.

Dan, if somehow you are town here, I'm sorry for the push, but there are reasons upon reasons, and if so, I think Drew set you up here very well, but I do not see a world where it isn't you or Drew, and the case is absolutely staggering for you.

[Flavor Leaf]

i literally said the same thing about you.

You and Hu Tao cannot be converted. If either of you are scum, you're group scum, and I feel I've been very clear about this?

How would my action mean that either of you couldn't be scum at all?!?

You think groupscum Hu Tao comes into the game, promptly softs Gamma's N1 inno result, then manages to quickly come up with a fakeclaim that explains her flavor and actions when she shouldn't have even been expecting to be called on it because of the ascetic claim? It sounds like her flavor is written much like mine, with some slightly sinister undertones, which feels like the mod intentionally trying to make the flavor cop look askance at us.

IM NOT FUCKING CALLING HU TAO GROUP SCUM ALL I SAID IS SHE COULD BE

also, yes, that is something Hu Tao is capable of as scum, EASILY.

Im not saying it's what happened, but no, that is not a strong enough reason for me to believe Hu tao isn't scum.

I just spent a whole long day phase where the misfade candidate and myself were the only ones on Hu Tao. Everyone else in the game swore it was the misfade candidate. I was the only other person pushing the correct fade in Scum Hu Tao. She got an extremely hard pocket play on Dragon that game, something I was also saying was being well done by Hu Tao.

Hu Tao is great setting up those little things, so your post saying that about Hu tao is actually making me ping scum on Hu Tao a little more even, but I could be paranoid from last game.

[Flavor Leaf]

Actually if Titus and FL are both town together I don't think they can come up with a viable scum team with me in it. They have to reach for Thomith/JV as group scum both of which is problematic to me either rolewise (Thomith) or playwise (JV).

Dan, Roden, Thomith, Hu Tao, JV, Aureal

are 6 candidates that could be partnered with you, especially with how Aureal's flipped here.

Now it looks like Aureal was actively siding with me and distancing from you.

So how is this not viable? I dont think it's Thomith, I believe Thomith's role, but Thomith could have been converted.

[Flavor Leaf]

Why is the vote Dan vs Drew?

it's either DanScum doing exactly what I said, or DrewScum who made me think it was DanScum doing exactly as I said.

[Flavor Leaf]

Actually if Titus and FL are both town together I don't think they can come up with a viable scum team with me in it. They have to reach for Thomith/JV as group scum both of which is problematic to me either rolewise (Thomith) or playwise (JV).

I don't get the playwise comment by JV?

Because JV hammered Cakez? That does not go in your favor, Dan. Cakez was traitor, JV was new, and you were the other option.

[Flavor Leaf]

both of my last games that ended I have been targeted/attacked for having either bad reads or being scum, and both of them, I had ended up with a correct town read nobody else was town reading, and landed on scum.

It is blatantly clear to me that scum is trying everything they can to discredit me right now, and i will not back down without fighting back.

[Flavor Leaf]

FG had access to a select few names/roles at the expense of having to outguess where Drew would target.

Nope. Drew has claimed his ability does not effect FG members. You keep ignoring that.

Most of the rest of your points are weak circumstantial evidence. Aside from the maestro bit. But I contend that if he thought he significantly tied himself to me he may have wanted to die as a convert while he could knowing I'd follow soon after.

I don't ignore that, i forget that. dont twist it. there's so many little details, and i have multiple times shown how im not following a lot of the small details in this game.


THAT in itself proves exactly why I am town here, most likely with a near correct solve.

[Flavor Leaf]

And the fact Drew doesn't effect FG members only makes my case stronger, but it's being pushed like 'oh look FL messed up on one tiny little thing there, i'm gonna nitpick it'.

I know thats not how you'd play this, you have to do what you have to do here, but that's the cartoonified version of what i believe is happening

[Flavor Leaf]

if you want to make a case for Drew, so be it, but i believe Dan and Roden being both scum is the most likely

OK, but Roden is a convert for you here yes? My group scum partner is who then? Hu?

Aureal even if Theta is scum here, what makes you think group scum and not convert? I dunno I think me vs Drew is best to do now because if you choose correctly you net a group scum.

Because there is nobody. Else. Left.

Roden: cleared by Hu Tao
Hu Tao: would have to have quickly come up with a helluva fakeclaim and plan to cover herself when outted as flavor copped
Leaf: oh come on
Jackson: I suppose the mod

could

be evil enough to give coffee to groupscum but I don't want to live in that world
Thomith: scum blocking their own conversions, yeah right

why are you underestimating Hu Tao?

[Flavor Leaf]

that is 100% in Hu Tao's wheelhouse. That's not that hard imo even.

It's also possible Dan gave Hu Tao group scum partner's real role away knowing that Hu Tao is a Real Cop who is there to look for Converts. Could be a Real Cop/Name combined role.

And then Gamma legit just got a town result on Roden, learned their name and alignment, then crumbed it so they could claim cop later.

It was probably Gamma's claim and Hu Tao just used it if Hu Tao is Group scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

Aureal has convinced me it's probably Hu Tao and Dan, and Dan was distancing from Hu Tao yesterday because Dan was underfire.

Hu Tao/JV quick hammering the way they did saved Dan again. It's possible they didnt know Cakez was traitor.


Dan/Hu Tao/Roden/JV is a likely quad.

JV is the least likely of those, and then Hu Tao is just a theory, but I think that makes a lot of sense here now that I was forced to think deeper into it.

I think Dan/Roden is like a deadon lock at this point, though.

[Flavor Leaf]

JV voting Dan, though, does lower chances of being converted.

If the 4 on Dan are all town, that likely leaves 2 more. Keep in mind, we might not actually be in ELO. it's possible there's only like 1 convert depending on the full extent of how their actions work, so we might be trying to solve 4 when it's only 3, which is always gonna make a 4 team scum feel weird.

It's safest to assume 4, though.

This means there are 2 other townies out there in that scenario.

Thomith has a good chance of being one, and then the other has to be Theta in a Titus Town/Dan Scum world.

Meaning Aureal has Group Scum possibility. But then Hu tao couldn't be Group scum if Dan is also group scum.

Interesting.

My head hurts.

[Flavor Leaf]

and frankly, I have a damn good case on Dan, full stop, and I'm tired of people acting like I have no reason for it.

Dan, if somehow you are town here, I'm sorry for the push, but there are reasons upon reasons, and if so, I think Drew set you up here very well, but I do not see a world where it isn't you or Drew, and the case is absolutely staggering for you.

I don't disagree with any of your points against Dan, except that it still makes sense for the traitors to follow Dan's lead even if he's town, because he was pushing town. Setting him up to take a fall after he keeps getting town like Rat and I faded seems like a reasonable enough strategy for them to be trying.

That's why I'm still on the fence here over Dan/Drew. I still hate all that stuff Dan has done over the course of the game. But I re-evaluate, and right now Drew's skulking around like he's just trying to lie low and not say anything that changes the narrative we've been pushing of Dan being scum. It doesn't feel good. Why isn't he even voting Dan? He said he's still mostly looking there. Is he waiting for his recruits to file in so he can hammer?

but it doesn't make sense for Maestro to FALL on the sword for Dan if Dan is town.

Explain that.

It is absolutely anti-wincon of Maestro to have done that if Dan was town. It was a wobbling see saw, and could have fallen either way. It was kinda leaning Maestro, but Maestro MADE SURE it fell on them.

[Flavor Leaf]

Oh, Aureal is in the names with Dan/Titus too. Good. That helps me with Aureal right now, cuz i havent been liking her at all recently and was about to make a bigger push on her. still might case, but i think we're right on the money.

[Flavor Leaf]

and a cop isn't useful for scum for finding traitor Cakez as he was a reverse miller.

this is false. You find Converts with that role, and in a game where you don't know who you convert, that is a strong role. And Titus has confirmed that Conversions come before her names, so i dont see why cop wouldn't.

Unless, of course, you're in the FG and do know who you're converting.

I also can find Converted with flavor, so you saying that role doesn't make sense while trying to put me in pairings doesn't make sense.

[Flavor Leaf]

this is false. You find Converts with that role, and in a game where you don't know who you convert, that is a strong role. And Titus has confirmed that Conversions come before her names, so i dont see why cop wouldn't.

Unless, of course, you're in the FG and do know who you're converting.

well as you just said as there is group scum in FG that converts... that would undermine the usefulness and strength of that role for scum to have almost no practicality, and with Cakez being a reverse miller that makes it all the worse as in the case scenario they target cakez it harms them.

there were 9 other town outside of the FG with GS and a Traitor in FG.

[Flavor Leaf]

and frankly, I have a damn good case on Dan, full stop, and I'm tired of people acting like I have no reason for it.

Dan, if somehow you are town here, I'm sorry for the push, but there are reasons upon reasons, and if so, I think Drew set you up here very well, but I do not see a world where it isn't you or Drew, and the case is absolutely staggering for you.

I don't disagree with any of your points against Dan, except that it still makes sense for the traitors to follow Dan's lead even if he's town, because he was pushing town. Setting him up to take a fall after he keeps getting town like Rat and I faded seems like a reasonable enough strategy for them to be trying.

That's why I'm still on the fence here over Dan/Drew. I still hate all that stuff Dan has done over the course of the game. But I re-evaluate, and right now Drew's skulking around like he's just trying to lie low and not say anything that changes the narrative we've been pushing of Dan being scum. It doesn't feel good. Why isn't he even voting Dan? He said he's still mostly looking there. Is he waiting for his recruits to file in so he can hammer?

but it doesn't make sense for Maestro to FALL on the sword for Dan if Dan is town.

Explain that.

It is absolutely anti-wincon of Maestro to have done that if Dan was town. It was a wobbling see saw, and could have fallen either way. It was kinda leaning Maestro, but Maestro MADE SURE it fell on them.

It could've fallen either way even with his acting out. We did almost go for Dan there even afterwards, because it so clearly looks like Maestro trying to protect Dan. It just made it a pit of wifom. And still there's the possibility Maestro might literally have just been doing that because he was upset he was getting wagoned, or even thought he was already hammered. The guy's not the most stable temperament.

well do what you want. im not moving.

I've been right to trust my gut recently, and been burned when I don't this late into a game.

[Flavor Leaf]

scum have three options here.

1: bus Dan.
2: Try to push me and kill me off here in response to my push on Dan.
3: Stall game, find a compromise, and hope people join on.


If Dan were town in this game, in a 4 scum team world, scum likely could have already taken Dan out. I don't believe the team is Titus/Drew/JV. I guess that's not impossible, but I'm leaning town on those.

And if we're not in a 4 scum team world, if Dan is town, then Dan is still the best to know so we can see his flip and in the case we are wrong, we go into tomorrow knowing the game has been coming from a TownDan perspective.

I'm really not willing to risk the slot that I've been saying was scum this entire game, and the minions were following and i called out correctly helping my theory of Dan group scum, only to move and lose the game with a second of doubt. I had some doubts here and there.

They are mostly gone. I don't think this is Scum Drew. I really don't.

[Flavor Leaf]

Drew was suspicious of the FG from the beginning, the only one of the FG, and he was surrounded by them.

[Flavor Leaf]

I wonder if its because you and him both had TMI

Yeah, I wonder

[Flavor Leaf]

I read that like a super serious dramatic reveal, that’s why I think that Dan line is so funny

[Flavor Leaf]

I am still of the opinion, with even more evidence now, that friendgroup doesn't have a convert or groupscum. Maybe cakez or maestro started as a traitor at best (and really I don't think maestro did) and yes this is a real possibility. I think Drew rught now is incontrovertible as town

Moved to the next day after Maestro flip pushing that Maestro was OG traitor.

Talk about the TMI, yet still defended the FG. I think we just go Dan, go next day.

[Flavor Leaf]

Fuck cults

[Flavor Leaf]

Why wasn't I culted

Really only had one choice prior to the last night.

Bianco on N1, Maestro on N2 were both random.

Hit Kiernan N3, but it only would have hit if it hit Thomith.

On Day 3 when I claimed the Unstoppable Info, I was gonna claim that Scum had a Cult Leader who came off as Town, and glad I didn’t considering Cakez Role.

That means there were zero town on that Day 2 names list.

[Flavor Leaf]

I don’t think it was as scum sided as it came across.

I get why it feels that way, though.

We stopped your Cop from getting actions on Night 2.

I came up with the Unstoppable which made it seem like there wasn’t a broken back and forth defensive Strat in the FG.

We had no real clue who our partners were (although Maestro laid it on way too think on Day 3. Still don’t understand their play there, but it worked out).

I feel like Theta and I were nearly POE’d, but we spent the game controlling day narrative.

It swinged towards us early because of the first 2 misfades (I quick hammered the 2nd one for a reason), and town lost the 3rd party early through the actions, which lowered numbers.

This game was a lot closer than it looked, especially because Converts and OG Addict didn’t know the others, and even we didn’t because of how the Real Name thing worked, which was true.

[Flavor Leaf]

For instance, if Hu Tao targeted Theta or myself (if I didn’t fake claim Miller)

That was basically a direct guilty and 50% of our team gone.

Only 2 specific members of scum needed to die for town to win, but we pulled ahead early.

Like if Hu Tao and Aureal targeted Theta and I Night 1, and if Aureal got the conveter, that was game over.

[Flavor Leaf]

I had no clue what to do this game, didn’t fully catch up cuz that was intimidating and I didn’t want to step on the plans the main faction cult was doing so did the bare minimum I could think of

i think thats what bianco did too. i think thats the nature of this setup because converts do have to protect the group scum.

i imagine it doesn't feel good to be converted, though. I guess you came into the game like that, though.

Bianco did target both group scum members with their target, and i even hard defended what I thought was a Dan case about the 3 of us scum, but he was town casing us.

Theta, JV, and I were all Novice/Non-Consecutive, so was hoping that didn't get out too much.
Theta and I had roles that were kinda helpful, but not really, so it really was a matter of controlling day play.

Me testing out Gamma Ascetic claim helped tremendously, and I likely wouldn't have done that without getting the coffee/recruit on Bianco Day 1, so that is a swing that went in our favor.

[Flavor Leaf]

I had no clue what to do this game, didn’t fully catch up cuz that was intimidating and I didn’t want to step on the plans the main faction cult was doing so did the bare minimum I could think of

i think thats what bianco did too. i think thats the nature of this setup because converts do have to protect the group scum.

i imagine it doesn't feel good to be converted, though. I guess you came into the game like that, though.

Bianco did target both group scum members with their target, and i even hard defended what I thought was a Dan case about the 3 of us scum, but he was town casing us.

Theta, JV, and I were all Novice/Non-Consecutive, so was hoping that didn't get out too much.
Theta and I had roles that were kinda helpful, but not really, so it really was a matter of controlling day play.

Me testing out Gamma Ascetic claim helped tremendously, and I likely wouldn't have done that without getting the coffee/recruit on Bianco Day 1, so that is a swing that went in our favor.

Just had a thought, now I know when we don't fight in a game......you are scum lol.

well, i would have faked it, but you were too trusting of me

[Flavor Leaf]

i tried to fake it, the Dan case was too strong, though lol

[Flavor Leaf]

Flavor is a damn good bullshitter, and though I was already onto Theta, I probably wouldn't have ever caught Flavor had I survived. My guy basically claimed NK immune miller and we all just believed him.

Informed NK immune miller. i had to retract that the next couple phases, though, ofc, lol

[Flavor Leaf]

Flavor is a damn good bullshitter, and though I was already onto Theta, I probably wouldn't have ever caught Flavor had I survived. My guy basically claimed NK immune miller and we all just believed him.

Informed NK immune miller. i had to retract that the next couple phases, though, ofc, lol

Just curious why you two chose who to convert, and why in that order?

I gave the name Nova. we got Nova.

Gave the name Arden, got Arden.

Didnt get a N3 one.

Roden had claimed Lennox, so we went Lennox because I could warrant teaming up with Roden in thread, and he was starting to town read Dan, so didnt want to lose his vote.

You were chosen as the 'take them to win with us'.

So Roden was the only choice, and only one we knew 100%. And only kinda knew 100% because Roden started coming after me too, haha.