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[Gypyx]

mess

[JacksonVirgo]

as for the other stuff while i appreciate the high standarts you're holding me to i don't think i'm *that* good at posting town stuff as scum and while stuff can change during a hiatus, this would be a massive leap in scumplay for me

I believe you're a wolf, you know that. I also believe you've done a really good job at amassing the followers you have and it is the one thing that I'm proving the most difficult with my push on you.

[JacksonVirgo]

It's actually incredibly ironic how someone I consider a wolf right now (Black) is spitting my exact thoughts and feelings and I don't like, stop it >:C

[Gypyx]

as for the other stuff while i appreciate the high standarts you're holding me to i don't think i'm *that* good at posting town stuff as scum and while stuff can change during a hiatus, this would be a massive leap in scumplay for me

I believe you're a wolf, you know that. I also believe you've done a really good job at amassing the followers you have and it is the one thing that I'm proving the most difficult with my push on you.

i don't know what i'm supposed to answer to that

like, clearly i'm not in the state to do much than proving myself town by tone and this seem to be the one thing you're not giving value to

it's just so hopeless

[JacksonVirgo]

I value tone and vibes incredibly low, yeah

[Gypyx]

sorry

[JacksonVirgo]

Why are you sorry?

[Gypyx]

a mix of everything

the way i'm treating you

not being able to play the game properly which is probably ruining everyone's fun

signing up for the game

i hate being like this

[JacksonVirgo]

While I'm not going to pretend I'm okay with how you've been treating people, I can say that you aren't ruining the fun of the game for me at least, I'm still having a blast playing. Especially with ketchup, he's such a breath of fresh air I'm actually so glad I replaced in. I just wish you find a way to express negative feelings through ways that aren't insulting people's character and the like. For instance, why do you think the push on you is bad?

[Gypyx]

it's a lot of stuff but basically

> i'm not seeing the towniness in psyche, like, i would probably be less infuriated if i felt like i was being outplayed or that i could even see what's towny about Psyche, but i don't, not a single bit, and i guess the case that luca / you made anger me even more in that they're treating it as something that's plain for the eye to see while i just have no clue what i can even bring up in response cause i don't see what they're seeing

i can understeand how you're playing around your view but i just don't get how you reached it

> I came in this game with the intent of playing more confident, and yeah, one could said scummy, the fact that this is being described as *only* scummy behavior is, i hope you understeand that one, very frustrating

A lot of us not agreeing comes from us expecting and looking for different things in townies


> And simply, i'm seeing flawed logic being used on me and i'm not in the mental state to make a calm and collected answer about it i can try now but basically as i've said before there's no reason for me to play like i did around dann D1 i would know he's wrong, know he's probably not gonna regain his cred thread after a while, and *especially* know my scumbuddies (i think we're going with Hu / Outworld right now?) are not getting wagoned as a consequence of that so i can just keep getting the day goingsss

and like, while i'll try keeping this point short cause i'm feeling really bad about it, yeah, it feels like i'm being confbiased against and that sucks and i'm sorry for lashing out like this

[Gypyx]

i just really don't get why psyche is getting townread really

his vibe, and i don't mean that in a mean way, is really "i've tried nothing and i'm all out of ideas" you've got a guilty on scum, you go to thread, you see me and jackson duking it out, with me probably looking pretty bad in it, you should be esctatic, that's the nail in the coffin of scum!Gypyx, and yet there's zero trust in the fact that he can get me out and like ,i'd get it if this was a renowned scum player we're talking about but AFAIK i'm not really fitting on that bill

i couldn't put words on it otherwise but like, the way he cased my slot really doesn't feel like he *belive* i am scum, he's playing this like he's a townie making a regular read while this is ELo and he has a confirmed scum check, those are two completely different mindsets

sorry if i'm being unpleasent or anything i'm trying my best to act normally

[Psyche]

is totally true that my play this game is”i’ve tried nothing and i'm all out of ideas". i genuinely don’t see much else to try that would work. i think the comparative reason is that i can’t pretend to see stuff in gypx’s posts in a way someone free to openly lie and dissemble can.

[Gypyx]

Come on now, is that really the best you have

no like really, i don't think my play makes any sense from a perspective of someone who knows she's lying, if i'm scum i'm convinced what i'm saying is fully true and basically kinda ignoring that i know the actual alignement

i kinda wanna avoid getting heated against though so idk, i just don't know if i should keep going

[Gypyx]

~_~

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler: My response to Gypyx (disclaimer: big post)

[Gypyx]

Spoiler: My response to Gypyx (disclaimer: big post)

lmao, fuck you (affectionate)

[JacksonVirgo]

Ahahaha, I can't help myself. I'll read what you said now

[JacksonVirgo]

it's a lot of stuff but basically

> i'm not seeing the towniness in psyche, like, i would probably be less infuriated if i felt like i was being outplayed or that i could even see what's towny about Psyche, but i don't, not a single bit, and i guess the case that luca / you made anger me even more in that they're treating it as something that's plain for the eye to see while i just have no clue what i can even bring up in response cause i don't see what they're seeing

i can understeand how you're playing around your view but i just don't get how you reached it

> I came in this game with the intent of playing more confident, and yeah, one could said scummy, the fact that this is being described as *only* scummy behavior is, i hope you understeand that one, very frustrating

A lot of us not agreeing comes from us expecting and looking for different things in townies

> And simply, i'm seeing flawed logic being used on me and i'm not in the mental state to make a calm and collected answer about it i can try now but basically as i've said before there's no reason for me to play like i did around dann D1 i would know he's wrong, know he's probably not gonna regain his cred thread after a while, and *especially* know my scumbuddies (i think we're going with Hu / Outworld right now?) are not getting wagoned as a consequence of that so i can just keep getting the day goingsss

and like, while i'll try keeping this point short cause i'm feeling really bad about it, yeah, it feels like i'm being confbiased against and that sucks and i'm sorry for lashing out like this

I can only speak for myself, I do not wish to pretend that I truly understand Luca's stance on Psyche as we have barely spoke about him in the masonry. My read prior to the mass-claim existed and that may very well be influencing how I'm seeing his progression surrounding the way he claimed his red-check to some degree but all in all I fail to see why a wolf would delay really performing that gambit as much as he did, and play it off like he did.

To be more specific, I am aware that scum holding off the claim until after the mass-claim has concluded is the smarter play and I am by no means arguing it isn't but even with that in mind, he revealed his information (1816)

before

luca had claimed (1973) so this would generally tell me that his feelings were that of really wanting it to escape his lips as opposed to waiting for it to be safe to let loose the gambit. It shows he was eager, which is consistent with the behaviour before

and

after the claim with him being not super pushy or very potent about it but demanding he "gets his podium" and to ask for people's attention. His pride about the check was clear to me, and in fact mimics the feelings (albeit in my case it was more in a negative situation) I had surrounding me wanting to claim the masonry. His spongebob picture resonated with me because that was how I was feeling even at that moment, though I didn't realise that was also his intent behind it. The claim would also be conducive to some form of a "high" that be very obviously had post-claim.

I just personally fail to see how this could be viewed as scummy, I felt it was incredibly pure of heart and exactly what I would expect to happen from a general low-poster having a bombshell to drop onto the evils.

Can you rephrase this if I am understanding this wrong, but as it stands it seems like you're saying the only scummy thing that we're calling you out for is your confidence when that's pretty clearly not the case at all. I won't comment further until I get clarification as I do not wish to speak about unnecessary things but when you clarify can you tell me what part of it is frustrating, and why it's so frustrating to you?

Indeed, but this also extends to the disagreements surrounding the whole Psyche vs Gypyx perspective that Hu Tao, Ketchup and the masonry were in. I feel it's quite clear that the masonry is holding vibes to a much smaller effect than the other two who used those as a primary focus to their reads before. While ketchup is now focusing more on process of elimination based way to decide the elimination that does not remove the fact that their main style of reading people seems to be from vibes moreso than what I would consider using logical analysis. I'm by no means saying that one way is better than the other but as one side is using one way of reading (and getting one conclusion) and the other is using the other (and getting the opposite conclusion) it's clear that one of us is using the correct means of reading Gypyx and the other simply isn't and I believe I am on the right side of that and as such I would need arguments that would disprove my own to be able to realistically look to the other side and I am not getting that.

Hu Tao for instance is just labelling something as "look at this, how can you not see this as town?" which I respect that she sees it as townie but that's nowhere even close to an argument I can do anything with so I respectfully disregard it. It's things like this that make it hard for me to really talk about which side is right and wrong because usually vibe-based reads are something I cannot realistically "replicate" the thought process for because it's based on personal feelings and experience. This is not to say that I reject the idea of reading by vibe as I often do as well, but strictly only when I have no thread I can logically piece together which once I find it then that becomes the primary pin of my read.

If somebody wants to appeal directly to me, speak to me in a way that doesn't rely on feelings, vibes and the like as much as you can.

You say you aren't in a mental state to make a calm and collected answer, but that's what I need from you to really get into my read and disassemble it to find the true accuracy of it. I don't see how scum!you wouldn't play like you did surrounding end of day one, why do you say that there's no reason? What part of it, and why.

And we're going with Black and Outworld right now

Confirmation bias is always going to be something every single argument is at risk of whether it's right or wrong, that's just the way it goes. I'm always going to more likely to side with my initial thoughts than to shift to the other with any given argument but that makes the burden of proof go to you as with me personally the scale is tilted so far against you as you are in a 50/50 as my scum-read, against my town-read and (I don't wanna harp on too much about this) but your behaviour made it incredibly difficult to try and understand you and empathise with you. I've attempted quite a lot of times to make sure that I not conf-biased but it's incredibly difficult when you aren't cooperating (to put it lightly) and I do fear that if you're town that this might not be recoverable anymore.

[Hu Tao]

What's even the vc right now?

[JacksonVirgo]

Gypyx: Psyche, Black, Mel
Outworld: Ketchup, Luca
Psyche: Gypyx

I believe that's accurate but that's going from memory

[Hu Tao]

I should still be voting psyche. But looks right

[JacksonVirgo]

Ah yeah, so 3/2/2

[Hu Tao]

Ower whe you're back. What are your thoughts on the votes on you?

[Hu Tao]

When*

[Psyche]

can break down 3335 further if people find it compelling but the gist of its error is that in places it’s a non sequitor or just misrepresents what has actually happened.

i had plenty of reasons to moderate my excitement when i made my claim. gypx is a formidable player who i could not have scumread otherwise. by comparison i haven’t managed anything of value this whole game and received a lot of warranted pressure the day before. furthermore she was already casting doubt on the claim from my first word of it using logic that i’d need to do a lot of follow-up research re setup design to even start engaging with. the closest thing to a recourse i have is to case a slot whose iso is massive and impenetrable. jackson’s posts gave me some hope that things would work out but now that the initial high has fallen out i’m honestly surprised that it’s not already over. even still i expressed plenty of ecstasy when i made my claim and will feel plenty good about it no matter how this game goes. this entire paragraph in her attack is flowery but poorly reasoned and contradicts what actually happened in the thread.

i am quite conscious my “case” against gypx isn’t amazing but that’s different from not believing she’s scum. the critique of this might be superficially reasonable if i had long-established reasons in thread to scumread her but i only know she’s scum because of my result. i’m under a lot of pressure to pull something out of my ass and argue that every post she’s made proves a scum mindset but that’s just not realistic. maybe it would be wiser to pretend that it is but i can’t marshal the energy anyway. and besides, i’d probably look inauthentic doing it. i can and depending on how much longer this goes on probably will do more to single out posts in gypx’s iso that could conceivably sway a ketchup or a hu tao but i can hardly tell what in their iso particularly entrenches their reads on this slot. maybe i dive into their isos too for hints of this.

the non sequitors in all this are that even if they were true, none of these claims about my play do anything to predict win condition. laziness, ineffectuality, defeatism - none of them are unique to scum and in fact i’ve been guilty of them all in perhaps the great majority of my games. i thought i’d shaken these traits off but i still don’t know how to consistently manage the game’s fundamental ambiguity.

now that i think about it, if anything, i think gypx’s contrastive confidence in her poorly-substanced reads make her more clearly scum than less. when jackson was still an option for a mislim, she was able to confidently cast their flub of the difference between a neap and a vanilla cop as an obvious scumslip while the straightforward counterfactual that he overlooked a difference between two very similar roles was effortlessly discounted. similarly her vca highlighting that her scumreads were all off wagon is incredibly superficial and basically reasoned in comparison to how strongly she values it as evidence. and as another example, she all but cleared ower solely on the basis of his claim’s “synergy” with hu tao’s jk claim until the mason claims forced her to drop it. it was always nothing! bullshit pretending to be gold abounds in her iso (most today are about me) and her case against me almost totally amounts to my inability to match this output.

i know the easy alternative explanation for all this is that she’s just that much more experienced as a player and has the knowledge and track record to back up this confidence. but the gaps in these reasonings are the flaw in that interpretation and should upweight the actually true explanation — that she can be so inventive of and confident in these reads because she doesn’t have to believe in them and she doesn’t have to worry that she might be wrong. she just needs to convince two players of a solve that excludes her.

i still think that interaction i highlighted w jackson re tao goes part and parcel with all this and can probably expand on that and other examples that show this disinterest in sorting and performative confidence in weak reads that don’t deserve it.