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[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

Ergo Dannflor is mafia, cause he ignores that, votes Oats, but still should rather vote DP if he was town adhering to his stated beliefs.
The gob vote was a distancing attempt.

Do you think dann could fake the introspection and adjustment to his approach with the TL players this game?

I found that really townie to be honest.

I don't know about that but he should form the two following thoughts:

Are these wagons town on town?
He voted gob previously so clearly he doesn't think that.

If he thought gob was mafia, why vote Oats who was just coming around to vote gob (unless he assumed that was a setup for a bus)?

If Oats isn't bussing he can only be partnered with you, so if he thinks gob is the mafia being wagoned, how can he ever suspect Oats for prepping a vote on him?

I don't get this way of looking at the game at all. You can hold two separate scumreads on the two main wagons and change your mind based on subsequent posts. I don't get your point about oats only being able to be partnered with Darth, either. You seem to be operating from the perspective than Gob is definitely scum, even though you townread him not too long ago?

I operated from both perspectives as evidenced by me also trying to take gob's perspective on who he should scumread if he was analyzing both wagons knowing he was town and believing that DP was mafia.

What is so hard to understand ?
If me and Oats and Superfluousninja had at least two mafia we would both be working to hammer the town of the two wagons instead of delaying.

Then you show up and randomly say me and Oats can be mafia together because you haven't put a shred of decent analysis into the wagon formation. That's another reason for me to be unable to townread you.

Mafia isn't so black and white that you can say 'when the wagons are like this, scum do this', unless it's melo and scum can literally win the game by quick hammering. Until that point anything is possible, and pre-flip wagon analysis is quite often pointless.

The fact you're so aware of the wagons yourself means that if you were scum, you would play in a way that you could manipulate the wagons to portray yourself or your buddies as being town with such reasoning.

Ah the good old perpetual wifom approach.
If i were scum, do you think I'd position myself to vote gob instead of DP when I started the day portraying DP as mafia?

Or were those genuine doubts?

Because I am tempted to move DP back into mafia territory when I read your posts and see how quickly you decided to townread him.

Tell me, what is gob doing that looks like he

doesn't

want to be eliminated?

You seem to be accusing me of wifom, and then using wifom yourself in your every next sentence.

Your question about Gob is strange and seemingly random. Why are you asking me this?

[SuperfluousNinja]

@Ninja, do you understand Vivax's point regarding the wagons, and do you think he makes a valid point?

No, and hell no. See previous post.

[Vivax]

Spoiler:

Ergo Dannflor is mafia, cause he ignores that, votes Oats, but still should rather vote DP if he was town adhering to his stated beliefs.
The gob vote was a distancing attempt.

Do you think dann could fake the introspection and adjustment to his approach with the TL players this game?

I found that really townie to be honest.

I don't know about that but he should form the two following thoughts:

Are these wagons town on town?
He voted gob previously so clearly he doesn't think that.

If he thought gob was mafia, why vote Oats who was just coming around to vote gob (unless he assumed that was a setup for a bus)?

If Oats isn't bussing he can only be partnered with you, so if he thinks gob is the mafia being wagoned, how can he ever suspect Oats for prepping a vote on him?

I don't get this way of looking at the game at all. You can hold two separate scumreads on the two main wagons and change your mind based on subsequent posts. I don't get your point about oats only being able to be partnered with Darth, either. You seem to be operating from the perspective than Gob is definitely scum, even though you townread him not too long ago?

I operated from both perspectives as evidenced by me also trying to take gob's perspective on who he should scumread if he was analyzing both wagons knowing he was town and believing that DP was mafia.

What is so hard to understand ?
If me and Oats and Superfluousninja had at least two mafia we would both be working to hammer the town of the two wagons instead of delaying.

Then you show up and randomly say me and Oats can be mafia together because you haven't put a shred of decent analysis into the wagon formation. That's another reason for me to be unable to townread you.

Mafia isn't so black and white that you can say 'when the wagons are like this, scum do this', unless it's melo and scum can literally win the game by quick hammering. Until that point anything is possible, and pre-flip wagon analysis is quite often pointless.

The fact you're so aware of the wagons yourself means that if you were scum, you would play in a way that you could manipulate the wagons to portray yourself or your buddies as being town with such reasoning.

Ah the good old perpetual wifom approach.
If i were scum, do you think I'd position myself to vote gob instead of DP when I started the day portraying DP as mafia?

Or were those genuine doubts?

Because I am tempted to move DP back into mafia territory when I read your posts and see how quickly you decided to townread him.

Tell me, what is gob doing that looks like he

doesn't

want to be eliminated?

You seem to be accusing me of wifom, and then using wifom yourself in your every next sentence.

Your question about Gob is strange and seemingly random. Why are you asking me this?

You can construct a lot as WIFOM but good luck saying that I deliberately choose a harder path for myself if I'm mafia.
We had gob at -1 with Hu Tao and thread support, you might as well claim scum if you think I am.

[SuperfluousNinja]

VOTE: gob
i actually wish to head this way
anybody up for this

I can +1 the vote but as a guess it‘s contraintuitive for me

VOTE: gob

I don‘t see how gob is mafia trying to win the game over being fuck all not trying to solve it at all.

On the other hand I could see Oats being in charge of keeping the heat off DP while he‘s mia.

It‘s a bit unlikely for Grack to have this drastic turnaround on him if he‘s partnered with him ?

Maybe this could ease lots of doubts on Lucas, Ninjas and Dannflors side especially:

VOTE: DarthPunk

Seriously you guys, Vivax is scum.

Look how reluctant he was to vote for scummate Gob. Then his brain screams at him, no dude, don't start a wagon on your buddy, get off him! So the very next post he swaps his vote. Food for thought

[Luca Blight]

I see you writing a lot but not much substance behind it when you could just look at the wagons and draw conclusions in a more rational way.

Instead you're back to claims like Oats pocketing TL buddies and all that jazz which is a cheap way of sowing distrust. Most of your arguments are based on something not making sense to you and there's massive amounts of purely aesthetic floof.

VOTE: Luca Blight

Yes, I've already observed the pattern of you voting me every time I show suspicion of you.

You mean I've been wanting to yeet you for almost the entire duration of the game?
You are suggesting me and Oats could be a team that's the reason I just voted for you again.

Well, from my perspective you could be a team. And you've only wanted to yeet me since I first started doubting you - you never scumread me at all for most of D1.

You act all offended by my suggestion of you being scum with oats when you throw out team suggestions willy-nilly, even completely ridiculous ones that feature both me and Darth as scum.

I'm not offended, mostly annoyed. I think you are trying to make the game more complex than it is, and I hate having to repeat myself constantly.

If you have DP and gob at -2 respectively and three people off wagon that don't play like they are associated to eliminate one of the options, you suggesting two of those to be scum together is just baseless tinfoil if you're town, and sloppy if you're mafia.

I don't think you are crazy, so I think you are mafia.

According to oats, you must be scum because you are annoyed at someone you scumread.

Are you suggesting that if you and oats were scum you would just jump on and hammer whoever the leading town wagon is? It's overly black and white, simplistic view of the game. Mafia deliberately play and vote in a way that is difficult for town to predict, otherwise the game would be easily solved just by looking at wagon associations every time when you reach the later days of the game.

[SuperfluousNinja]

For real though, I really want to focus on why you ignored my vote wagon analysis, Vivax. I was just poking through your ISO to confirm that you did indeed ignore it, and you did (I found that interesting voting pattern on the way).

I posted my analysis in post 2802. You were just now arguing that you think Luca is scummy for not putting more effort into looking at wagons and making conclusions from those. Well Vivax, I gave you about as full and comprehensive of a history on the Dunnstral voting wagon as a person could possibly give it, and you said two things about it: 1) Jack 2) Shit. So explain to me why you'd do that, why you would

completely ignore it

, if you legitimately believe it is important to talk about that stuff? Convince me that you did not just now make something up about what you think is important to give you an excuse to vote for Luca.

[Naerys]

i do pay attention to the game much more when i am scum
as town i tend to be lax

Do you understand why lax play is interpreted as scummy?

I dont care.

[Vivax]

I see you writing a lot but not much substance behind it when you could just look at the wagons and draw conclusions in a more rational way.

Instead you're back to claims like Oats pocketing TL buddies and all that jazz which is a cheap way of sowing distrust. Most of your arguments are based on something not making sense to you and there's massive amounts of purely aesthetic floof.

VOTE: Luca Blight

Yes, I've already observed the pattern of you voting me every time I show suspicion of you.

You mean I've been wanting to yeet you for almost the entire duration of the game?
You are suggesting me and Oats could be a team that's the reason I just voted for you again.

Well, from my perspective you could be a team. And you've only wanted to yeet me since I first started doubting you - you never scumread me at all for most of D1.

You act all offended by my suggestion of you being scum with oats when you throw out team suggestions willy-nilly, even completely ridiculous ones that feature both me and Darth as scum.

I'm not offended, mostly annoyed. I think you are trying to make the game more complex than it is, and I hate having to repeat myself constantly.

If you have DP and gob at -2 respectively and three people off wagon that don't play like they are associated to eliminate one of the options, you suggesting two of those to be scum together is just baseless tinfoil if you're town, and sloppy if you're mafia.

I don't think you are crazy, so I think you are mafia.

According to oats, you must be scum because you are annoyed at someone you scumread.

Are you suggesting that if you and oats were scum you would just jump on and hammer whoever the leading town wagon is? It's overly black and white, simplistic view of the game. Mafia deliberately play and vote in a way that is difficult for town to predict, otherwise the game would be easily solved just by looking at wagon associations every time when you reach the later days of the game.

You and DP got off each other too quickly.
I'm sure you are scum. The vote stays. I rest my case.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Post 2802, for reference.

[SuperfluousNinja]

i do pay attention to the game much more when i am scum
as town i tend to be lax

Do you understand why lax play is interpreted as scummy?

I dont care.

See, I was hoping you would say "yes, I do, but this is just how I play", as that would have given me reason to townread you. If you can admit to a fault but still explain how it fits your playstyle, that would make me feel better.

You are making it hard to townread you.

[Luca Blight]

I think you have it right with your solve, Ninja. This post felt very off from oats:

oats, thoughts on a gob lim?

I’m pretty happy with a gob lim. Dude clearly has the ability to play and saying that he’s been playing more today shows a bit too much self awareness to be town I think. There’s no reason he should’ve played the way he did day 1 as town imo

He was put on the spot here by Darth. I could easily see this being an awkward, half-hearted bus.

[outoforder]

You can't be town and in good faith argue that two mafias didn't at least attempt to hammer the townie one of DP and gob.

This is a very very terrible argument Vivax.

[SuperfluousNinja]

You can construct a lot as WIFOM but good luck saying that I deliberately choose a harder path for myself if I'm mafia.
We had gob at -1 with Hu Tao and thread support, you might as well claim scum if you think I am.

I don't think it's a good argument that you are "making things harder for yourself" by backing off of a wagon on your teammate. Are things not easier for you if your teammate is alive?

[Luca Blight]

So Vivax now refuses to move his vote from me because I called out his wagon analysis which, I think we can all agree, makes no sense.

And now he's slinked off with a final 'dp and luca are scum because they stopped arguing too quickly', dropping all talk of the wagons which was what made him vote me in the first place.

It looks like caught scum to me.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

Ergo Dannflor is mafia, cause he ignores that, votes Oats, but still should rather vote DP if he was town adhering to his stated beliefs.
The gob vote was a distancing attempt.

Do you think dann could fake the introspection and adjustment to his approach with the TL players this game?

I found that really townie to be honest.

I don't know about that but he should form the two following thoughts:

Are these wagons town on town?
He voted gob previously so clearly he doesn't think that.

If he thought gob was mafia, why vote Oats who was just coming around to vote gob (unless he assumed that was a setup for a bus)?

If Oats isn't bussing he can only be partnered with you, so if he thinks gob is the mafia being wagoned, how can he ever suspect Oats for prepping a vote on him?

I don't get this way of looking at the game at all. You can hold two separate scumreads on the two main wagons and change your mind based on subsequent posts. I don't get your point about oats only being able to be partnered with Darth, either. You seem to be operating from the perspective than Gob is definitely scum, even though you townread him not too long ago?

I operated from both perspectives as evidenced by me also trying to take gob's perspective on who he should scumread if he was analyzing both wagons knowing he was town and believing that DP was mafia.

What is so hard to understand ?
If me and Oats and Superfluousninja had at least two mafia we would both be working to hammer the town of the two wagons instead of delaying.

Then you show up and randomly say me and Oats can be mafia together because you haven't put a shred of decent analysis into the wagon formation. That's another reason for me to be unable to townread you.

Mafia isn't so black and white that you can say 'when the wagons are like this, scum do this', unless it's melo and scum can literally win the game by quick hammering. Until that point anything is possible, and pre-flip wagon analysis is quite often pointless.

The fact you're so aware of the wagons yourself means that if you were scum, you would play in a way that you could manipulate the wagons to portray yourself or your buddies as being town with such reasoning.

Ah the good old perpetual wifom approach.
If i were scum, do you think I'd position myself to vote gob instead of DP when I started the day portraying DP as mafia?

Or were those genuine doubts?

Because I am tempted to move DP back into mafia territory when I read your posts and see how quickly you decided to townread him.

Tell me, what is gob doing that looks like he

doesn't

want to be eliminated?

I still don't get why Vivax asked this question out of the blue. What is he talking about, and how is it relevant to anything we discussed?

[outoforder]

I am just gonna blurt out everything i have thought about after yesterday. I've been able to follow the thread at work.

I think Luca vs DP is T/T. I am fairly certain of it. Both side's reasoning for other one being mafia makes sense (+ Grack on DP), but i don't think it makes either of them mafia. The more i read Luca's posts i think it just how he posts, rather than that he is trying to deceive. It looks annoying to me (i mean this with no offence) because from what i know appearing certain is a way you get the people you want on the chopping block. He did appear certain though lately, when he was willing to go 1v1 against DP, and that looked townie to me, because i don't think he thinks he can win that argument.

DP did some weird shit at the end of D1, yes. I still don't think it makes him mafia because he simply just doesn't have to do that. If there is a choice of getting rid of either Luca or Dunn D1 for him, what's the point of having a player who is defending themselves to death alive D2 over a fairly passive player? Again, being wrong doesn't make anyone mafia, and the misyeet could be easily blamed on someone else -- for instance on people who joined the wagon without much reasoning (as Luca himself said, almost everyone has thought he is scum in this game).

I also believe Ninja is town. This is more of a tone read than based on content, because i don't understand most of her point by point arguments (no offence again). I also can't place her in any mafia team in based on my reads.

Another person i think is town is Naerys. It's very hard for me to explain why i townread her. It's basically -- especially now during D2, whenever she posts it seems like there is some sort of thought going on in her head. Although i tend to have no idea what that is at each point, i think it's townie lol. ^^

I also think Grack is town. This is the weakest town read i have. I don't think he has done much and yeah technically he could be mafia for sure, i just don't think he is since every once in a while he comes in with a super smart comment or observation.

That leaves me with Dann/Oats/Vivax/gob/Hu Tao.

I have absolutely no idea what to think of Hu Tao. Every other time i read i think she is town and every other time i think she is mafia. I think it is slightly more likely to be town for the stupid gambit at the start of the day. I simply don't know what there is to achieve, if Luca is town OR if Luca is mafia (since basically that was the ONLY assumed wagon start D2 and Dunn flipping town)????

gob is most likely mafia for what i said.

Dann has faded off and i feel like that's strange. I need to look further into his reads on day 2 and mirror them to the fact he said he is purposely stepping down from trying to be a town leader. I don't understand why someone who is able to lead the town would not want to lead the town. If people are pushing his scumreads, then i guess that can make sense. If not, then there is a problem in what he's doing. I myself have found this day phase quite all over the place and there has been not so good direction or agreement between people. That's why i find his play weird this phase, and statistically scum can't keep up with "townie play" the more the game goes on.

Oats and Vivax i have to completely reread, as there is probably at least one mafia in those people. I haven't done that yet, but i am planning to start this evening.

Can we please now use the time we have and not yeet anyone when we have like 3-4 day self in the phase????
At least give people time to play friday evening and saturday, since that's the time i can acually be active.

[outoforder]

Oats why have you not been interested in my alignment during the whole game?

[Oatsmaster]

Oats why have you not been interested in my alignment during the whole game?

Town

[Oatsmaster]

Also I can read

[Naerys]

Oats has just been antagonizing people and playing defensively all game long, doing little if anything to help us converge our reads and lessen the chaos. I would say both Dann and Luca have done the exact opposite; they've put a lot of effort into solving things, showed flexibility, admitted to faults (this last one is a BIG one to me), and both seem to be working as a team with town as a whole (rather than just one or two people).

yes, the chance of oats being scum is decent, but what you said is exactly reason why i think Dann/luca could be scum in case of town oats. As scum you are obviously trying to not being found and also to firmly position urself between townies
so oats could be just a way for scum to get easy mislim, without drawing suspicion towards themselves
i am fine with flipping oats bcz that gives plenty info(still prefer gob)

[Oatsmaster]

I think my vote is going to be glued on oats for the rest of this day.

Anyone who happens to townread oats - just look through his iso and see him ask question after question, and make remark after remark without actually doing any proper analysis or doing anything of note at all. All arguments against him he dissects into fragments and asks for explanation after explanation, with the attitude of 'innocent until proven guilty'. It's what I used to do in past scum games - break every argument down into pieces and argue on a purely logical basis, which will never end up with a satisfactory conclusion, because of course oats is never going to admit to being scum, and will continue arguing and redirecting until either you lose interest, or people lazily start to write it off at tvt.

Hey look, Luca is describing his play this game, that’s crazy

[Oatsmaster]

Ergo Dannflor is mafia, cause he ignores that, votes Oats, but still should rather vote DP if he was town adhering to his stated beliefs.
The gob vote was a distancing attempt.

Do you think dann could fake the introspection and adjustment to his approach with the TL players this game?

I found that really townie to be honest.

Yes, Dann is town, and I'm starting to think Darth might be as well based on his recent play.

So Luca flips back onto dann is town without referencing his previous “fears” about dann as soon as dann stops pushing Luca. It seems to me that Luca realizes that he can easily get off of darth here, I’m really baffled at how he’s so confident in dp being mafia before he’s willing to completely tank the game by saying yeet dp and if dp is town yeet Luca if Luca is town but now he’s like nah I’m good based on “recent” posting

[Hu Tao]

Regarding Naerys - I'm not reading too much into that supposed town-slip. I actually once played a game before where this happened - a player was so disengaged that they missed the claim of the player who was NK, or something like that, and everyone townread them for it. It actually turned out that they were scum but not pretending to town-slip - they had barely read the posts in the mafia pt either, and were genuinely unaware of the claim.

I think naery could not be aware as town or fake it as scum so I think its NAI

[gob]

just shit my pants at work

what’s happening here? looks like i got heat

[Luca Blight]

At this point, oats is so obviously scum that I'm not going to bother responding to any of his posts unless someone else specifically wants me to.