Mafia 86 - mafia.gif - Game Over!

[BlakAdder]

I'm willing to hammer Niv if he does not claim/post soon.

[Sierra]

It's never a good idea to hammer before getting a claim, so don't.

I don't like how farside practically ignores Niv by saying "I have no case on Niv myself". It looks to me like he's trying to divert attention away from Niv by first trying to push a wagon on EA, and when that fails he resorts to attacking BA. Possible scum-buddy behaviour there.

[ShadowGirl]

Prod: Niv

I think that it would be in our best interests to wait for him to post. :/

[springlullaby]

Alright.

Now, I'm inclined to disbelieve EA as a vig. It's hard to tell from N2 and 3, but Ooba's kill is very suspect, Ooba hasn't been overly scummy that I can see when he was around, but he can be great town and makes for a decent scumkill. Plus, it's always dangerous to try to meta mods, but I'd say that Dead Rikimaru would sooner put two SK's in a game than two vigs. It would have been different if EA had claimed compulsive but he didn't.

That said, I think it' better to let EA go to night and let the vigs/SK's work it out between themselves.

I think Jebus is unlikely to be scum, the only way I could conceive it is Jebus being mafia blue with BA but that's a bit too paranoid I think. Nonetheless I think the gambit on blakkader is crap, if BA is scum but just didn't commit the kill Jebus said he did, I wouldn't imagine he would have reacted differently.

Personally I don't like the case on Niv, I don't figure Seraphim as one who'd replace out just because of a bit of pressure.

Giving that, I'd rather go with BA.

Unvote, Vote BA

[farside22]

I don't like how farside practically ignores Niv by saying "I have no case on Niv myself". It looks to me like he's trying to divert attention away from Niv by first trying to push a wagon on EA, and when that fails he resorts to attacking BA. Possible scum-buddy behaviour there.

How? I'm not going to magically find some case on a person I never felt suspicion on. I think EA's vig choice and the term murder seems SKish to me but hey everyone thinks lets out the vig that is dumb. I stated a case on BA and believe he is most likely scum with Jap group.

[massive]

You know, if BA *is* the last Japanese scum, we will have seen quite the number of self-serving scummy votes leading up to his lynch.

[springlullaby]

You know, if BA *is* the last Japanese scum, we will have seen quite the number of self-serving scummy votes leading up to his lynch.

Of interest. Please explain very clearly what you mean to imply with this post.
I may or may not hold it against you.

[Jahudo]

Plus, it's always dangerous to try to meta mods, but I'd say that Dead Rikimaru would sooner put two SK's in a game than two vigs.

By itself it sounds possible, but with 3 known scum factions (cult, jap, greek) it's hard for me to believe in 5 scum factions.

Personally I don't like the case on Niv, I don't figure Seraphim as one who'd replace out just because of a bit of pressure.

I didn't see any tell from his replacing out but I thought he was scummy before he left. How did you read his statement when he voted for Empking by saying it was Tar's idea to do so and not his?

My suspicious list:

After Niv, I agree with some of the points on BA. I don't think that calling "Stef partially cleared..." was scummy at the time but of course knowing Stef's alignment gives some bias now. What I really didn't like was his wagon hopping at the end of the day 3. He didn't give reasons on his gorckat, Rush, or skitzer vote which I think he should've even if they were the viable lynches at a deadline. He also had FoS'es on Emp, CKD and Sierra day 2 but during day 3 he didn't bring any case against CKD or Sierra. He didn't have suspicions until the end of that day really.

I don't think massive has looked scummy for the wagons he agrees with, mostly because backs up his votes with attention to the case. When I read the game I got the opposite feel from Cybele.

Cybele I thought was actively making no-content posts and some jokes. He has a weak vote on BA that wasn't built up by any previous opinion. His last post goes after massive for not posting and going on V/LA. That didn't feel right because Cybele just finished a gap of 7 days without posting (Oct. 3-10) but didn't return with anything but that weak vote. But I think Llama has looked pro-town so far.

[LlamaFluff]

@Mod - Prod Niv

/*
* Did that already a while ago. If he doesn't reply by tomorrow, I'll get him replaced.
* I already have a replacement in line. I just wanted niv to show up, since I cross
* replaced with him.
*/

This day isnt going anywhere untill he claims

@Niv - You are at L-1 with your selfvote and have one impending vote, claim.

[massive]

Of interest. Please explain very clearly what you mean to imply with this post.
I may or may not hold it against you.

Oh sure. Given the number of people who have said that (1) they believe EA is a killer but not the vig and (2) then vote for BA, it seems to me that there are more people interested in finding (what feels like) an opposing Mafia member than an SK. It's not just you. farside22 did the exact same thing.

[farside22]

Of interest. Please explain very clearly what you mean to imply with this post.
I may or may not hold it against you.

Oh sure. Given the number of people who have said that (1) they believe EA is a killer but not the vig and (2) then vote for BA, it seems to me that there are more people interested in finding (what feels like) an opposing Mafia member than an SK. It's not just you. farside22 did the exact same thing.

Getting rid of an extra kill is bad in your book? Seriously? You like to see 3 to 4 deaths in the night?

[massive]

Lynching EA (a known and admitted killer) vs. lynching BA (an unknown but probably commodity) ... how is one MORE likely to get rid of a night kill, and why are you backing the wrong one?

[farside22]

Lynching EA (a known and admitted killer) vs. lynching BA (an unknown but probably commodity) ... how is one MORE likely to get rid of a night kill, and why are you backing the wrong one?

I stated I believe BA to be part of the same group as stef. If there is a 5th person that is part of the group I would be shocked. Getting rid of BA should be getting rid of the last person in one mafia group. If I am correct about BA's alignment and or group. Since Llama wants a counter claim and no claim thus far for the Vig EA lives, but I seriously doubt EA's claim till the game ends or EA's alignment is revealed by the mod.

[LlamaFluff]

I really want a claim from Niv before I have to leave sunday...

[Erratus Apathos]

Can we get a vote count?

[ShadowGirl]

A prod/replacement on Niv?

As I've said before, I'd still rather EA live through the night and let things go from there. I'm not so sure if I'd want to out the vig know (if there is another one) when then can just take care of EA during the night. (Unless they're about to be lynched, they should claim, obviously...)

[Claus]

Mod's Hint of the day:

Keep your cool on internet discussions.

Vote Count!

Massive 1 - EA
Blak Adder 3 - Massive, Farside, Springlulaby
Niv 4 - Niv, Llama Fluff, Jebus, Sierra

Not Voting: Jahudo, Shadowgirl, BA

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch.


==============

Also, The Fonz replaces Niv. However, he said he is going to be VLA until Monday.

[LlamaFluff]

Well im V/LA from the 21st to 26th, expecting to have zero access, at tops I would be able to get one post in. Would prefer if you dont lynch when I am gone though.

[Jahudo]

Niv flaked in all his games in the week since his last post here. His posts and inactivity are a null tell for me and I'd like to hear what the fonz has to say about the game, if he's read everything yet since he's been in line to replace in.

I stated I believe BA to be part of the same group as stef.

How much of your suspicion on BA rests with posts that link him to stef? Do you see any WIFOM where he could be distancing from someone still alive?

[Sierra]

Niv flaked in all his games in the week since his last post here. His posts and inactivity are a null tell for me and I'd like to hear what the fonz has to say about the game, if he's read everything yet since he's been in line to replace in.

When The Fonz gets here, I'm expecting nothing less than a roleclaim from him.

[farside22]

How much of your suspicion on BA rests with posts that link him to stef? Do you see any WIFOM where he could be distancing from someone still alive?

Actually it was sek I noted defending BA as well as BA following BW's without a reason. It seems as far as sek goes she didn't distance from Stef so I don't believe she did distancing very well looking at that interplay and her interplay with BA.

[The Fonz]

Reading, will post as I go along.

[The Fonz]

DAY ONE

The first thing I note is Jebus' jokeclaim. I HATE things like this. It had better not be followed by a ten-page discussion of if it were obvious he was joking...

EA understands the point of random bandwagoning. Townie points.

Random stage is looooong.

CKD 69 is scummy. Cybele's vote is a reasonable point, unvoting in the random vote without anywhere to go doesn't help the town. Also misrepresents what happened in the invitational: that was hardly the main reason he was lynched.

Dislike 71 for the same reason. And 76. Jebus is asking for the randomness to stop, without providing any suggestions for what to replace it with.

Ku_F 81 is a good point. Townie brownies.

83- HATE HATE HATE! There is absolutely no reason for a town player to do that. No wonder he was lynched day one- town had no alternative there, that kind of act demands policy-lynching (well, scumhunt lynching, actually, since there are benefits to scum from doing it and none to town).

The point is its not an actually scummy thing that was attacked.

It's a mildly antitown thing, which is as good as you're going to get in the RVS.

massive's 89 does nothing to move the game forward.

Sorry. Frankly, large group discussion isn't my forte. .

Hmm, no guesses as to why this guy flaked.

OK: gotten to post 100, and only TSN has commented on the one, obviously scummy, thing that has been done in the game. Continuing random stage after concrete things have happened = bad. TSN gets TBs for cutting to the chase.

massive's second post also does nothing to advance the game. Will this become a theme?

armlx 107 is a good point. Cybele's vote did seem semi-serious, and that was fine. Backing off it smells bad.

113: Strongly disagree though, IT IS a valid reason to vote someone.

....Aaand EA spots the obvious content. And PT offers a shit defence.

118: Why does CKD not vote tajo, then?

125: What the eff? That does not look like a too scummy to be scum argument at all. Nonetheless, armlx appears unlikely to be a buddy.

Not participating in the random voting stage is scummy in my book.

I can see we're going to fall out.

<3 TSPN 134. A question that could lead to actual scumhunting.

161: Sierra's defence of his position on RVS is decent. He's wrong, of course. But seems genuine.

Sekinj goes for the 'treating similar things differently' scumtell, which is a good point. Of course, populartajo should have been policy-lynched by now. But whatever.

I can see where Tar's 165 is coming from, definitely.

2. My vanilla claim was because I was bored and I wanted to generate discussion. Null tell, IMO.

'To generate discussion' is not sufficient justification for doing something obviously town-harming.

It wasn't at all obvious skitzer wasn't vanilla here. Oh no. [/sarcasm]

190: Oh, dear God. The newbie queue is there for a reason.

I am strongly considering moving my vote to PT for momentum reasons, plus how much worse the townie claim looks every time I think about it.

I will look very carefully to see whether he actually does. Rethinking earlier 'prob not a partner' assertion.

194: ShadowGirl does one of my least favourite things: 'unvote because it was random.' Right, so now we're discussing non-random things, use your vote on one of them.

Also:

Unvote.

Since my vote on Seraphim was placed during the random vote stage and we are past that now.

He can be a newbie. He can also be newbie scum.

QFT. If he's town and playing scummy, then we should call him on it. We learn from our mistakes, and if we just let it slide he's never going to learn.


Anyway, I'm taking Tajo's 'vanilla claim' and Seraphim not wanting to participate in random voting as null tells.

These seem contradictory. Do you want to call Tajo on it, or treat it as a null tell?

196 is a WIFOM overdose, so he needs to die even more. Seriously, if the only reason scum wouldn't do something is because they'd get lynched, then it's a scumtell.

It's random stage, the claim will bring unecessary attention, and it's WIFOM.

Another of my least favourite things: defending something that has obvious benefits for scum by 'it's wifom.' Uh, no. THE DEFENCE is wifom.

OH GOD, NOT THE 'ARE LURKERS MORE LIKELY TO BE SCUM' ARGUMENT.

204 is the sign of more good thought processes from EA.

. Since your scumminess relies on the assumption that you and tajo are partners, you'll be partially cleared if tajo flips town.

This is a huge scumtell on the part of BlakAdder, put into context. Ties together a townie and a scum, supports the lynch of the townie and then claims that 'partially clears' the scum.

218 Empking spots this, and calls him on it.

And BlakAdder hedges so much, he might actually be a garden.

Now, the thing with the smiley. There are three possibilities:

1. ooba is an absurdly good scumhunter
2. He got lucky
3. This is a bus he didn't expect to take off.

I'm considering 3) as a serious candidate.

Tar's point about information instead of analysis in 228 would be a good one, if not followed by a post that fits that description like a glove.

234. He's still alive because...?

CKD's 241 is a good one, and Erratus' 245 where he FOSes CKD for it is really bizarre. Chainsawing? As in, defending by attacking the attacker? I don't see why that would be a scumtell. By that logic, it's a scumtell to attack anyone on a popular wagon, which is just untenable.

Haschel's entry (246) is VERY good. Pretty much precisely what i'd say in the situation.

Do not like BlakAdder's response to CKD... 'none of them have really done anything scummy' is not analysis.

I don't like how black and white Tar's 257 is... do you think this player is scum or not? That's not the question. The question scumhunters need to ask is 'how likely is this guy to be scum?'

IF YOU WANT ME TO CLAIM NOW AND AVOID THIS STUPID CONVERSATION JUST TELL ME.

I LITERALLY fell off my chair when I read this. Grrr, it's beating a dead horse, but still...


HATE 261. For the following reasons.

wow, been playing this game for over a year...never heard the term chainsawing..please define.

Chainsawing: Attacking a player (BlakAdder) in a manner that discourages their attack on a third player (populartajo).

This is a scumtell how? If players got lynched for this, then no-one would ever get caught opportunistically bandwagoning.

This section attempts to show that BA is wrong. Actually, it doesn't even do that; it only says that BA is wrong, but bear with me. Showing that he's wrong is fine, but it does dick-all to show that he's

scum

. Why, then, did CKD attack him for being wrong? Discrediting the Tajo attack is a pretty good guess.

Attacking someone over something that is not a scumtell, is a scumtell.

WHY THE HELL ARE PEOPLE ASKING FOR AN ALREADY CLAIMED PLAYER'S CLAIM? EITHER HE'S VANILLA, IN WHICH CASE IT SHOULDN'T HELP, OR HE CLAIMS SOMETHING ELSE, IN WHICH CASE LYNCH ALL LIARS.

272: Lynch all liars. Enough said. I really hope no-one counterclaims.

Electra jumps in to pile on a townie, with basically the only contribution of the day. She was scum? No shit. (Also, note another instance of scum using Person C).

When I wrote this:

Im bored.
Im vanilla.
Discuss.

Claiming vanilla this early is -usually- bad play if you're town, even if you were only joking (which I can't tell for sure).

FOS populartajo.

the reason I used the word "usually" is because I thought of one exception where it would not be bad play to claim vanilla: when you're a doctor. I find it very odd how nobody (except ShadowGirl) appears to be even considering the fact that Tajo is really a doctor.

It WOULD be bad play as doc. Precisely because no one will believe you if you ever have to claim doc. And it might still get you lynched.

Sekinj with the 20/20 hindsight is kinda disturbing.

[ShadowGirl]

These seem contradictory. Do you want to call Tajo on it, or treat it as a null tell?

The response to armlx is about Stef, while my comment about Tajo is about Tajo.

[The Fonz]

TO END of P17

Hehe Stef and Ooba were both antitown. Score one for petty pointscoring as a scumtell.

The cult leader was killed night 1. Woot!!!

Likelihood of someone claiming this is congratulating the vig, when it clearly isn't, is pretty high. Let's see...

Incredibly quick wagon here, so I'm guessing BlakAdder claims power. Everyone's seeing the exact same thing I saw.

Sekinj... grr, why is it when I replace into a game most of the really obvious scumtells I see are committed by already-dead mafia? Oh, right, because the town's competent. <3

The attacks on CKD in general are bad... CKD gives the impression of being convinced PT was lying. If that's the case, why not hammer? And his point that those who were calling him out failed to unvote, when they had the opportunity, is a valid one.

An unrelated point: Does stef being in the japanese mafia imply two mafias?

This post feels greek to me, for some reason. As if he knows full well it does. Tar's reaction (thinking an SK more likely) is closer to what i'd expect from a town player.

BlakAdder's defence is bad, though he gets points for consistency, as if he genuinely doesn't realise why the 'partially clearing' thing was so obvscummy.

My definition of buddying is any act of scum working together during the day. This includes deflecting suspicion and distancing.

Your definition of buddying is WRONG.

Liking EA's pressuring of Cybele, claiming that vote was a joke is definitely a nonsequitur.

Cybele's 351 includes a non-defence, some buddying-up, and a person C vote. That definitely pings my scumdar.

BA vs Shadowgirl interaction: Shadowgirl is basically right here, and BA and armlx wrong: if you think a wagon's bad, it's incumbent on YOU to find somewhere else to go.

371: Honestly, I can't see whether BA's weird definition of 'cleared' makes him less scummy or not. You're still tying a scum to a townie, and trying to lynch the townie first.

Okay. skitzer and I have spent a lot of time together playing Mish Mash games, starting from when he ran a Nomic game. Now while I can't actually explain why it's funny, I can say it was never meant to be serious.

You made a joke, and you didn't know why it was funny?

Empking's 382 makes my head hurt.

Don't like EA's movement off of Cybele onto CKD. If merely questioning your Cybele vote is scummier than the reasons that you were on Cybele in the first place... then that makes you look less invested that you were appearing.

I profoundly dislike Sierra's 396. Simply because Tajo's action was obviously antitown, and a much better angle than a smiley. However: Given two scumgroups and a cult, and that we have three dead Jap mafia, it strikes me as unlikely there's more.

406: TSPN deflects from a dead town, to a living player. Note: If EA comes up scum, TSPN likely town.

410: EA makes a false dichotomy. "Plausible as town" and "more likely to come from scum" are not mutually exclusive.

@EA - it seems like you are saying that you arn't paying attention to anything but your case and your suspects?? dont' you think that is too tunnel visioned? shouldn't you be reading everything happening in the game if you expect to be able to catch scum?

Big alarm bells. Confirmed scum suggesting living player is too tunnelvisioned. Indicates connection between sekinj and EA's 'tunnel' targets- not CKD obv, so Cybele?

Like 420 (Sierra)- trying to produce new evidence on BA.

BA's 424 v. bad.