Mini Theme 2330 - A Questionable Almost-Normal Game - Postgame

[Alianna]

2.13

Votecount 2.13

light_ganski (E-2): Titus, Black, Hu Tao, Political Clout
Black (2): JacksonVirgo, Doctor Drew
Titus (2): Ranger, Enchant
Ranger (1): light_ganski
ketchup777 (1): usesPython
usesPython (1): ketchup777

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-03-14 01:04:13).

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here.

[Black]

I'm confused why Drew's reaction couldn't have come from someone that doesn't know we're all cops. I'm not trying to play dumb I legitimately don't get it. Please explain

Imagine if Koba flipped VT (or any other role that wouldn't make everyone think everyone is a cop), how does Drew survive d2?

Answer: Either not at all or with great difficulty

Imagine if Drew didn't hammer and we wagoned someone d1 who flips VT (or any other role that wouldn't make everyone think everyone is a cop) and then Lap gets shot at night (with no clears since they die n1), how does Drew survive d2?

Answer: Easily

In order for Drew aggressively pushing Lap after the claim to make sense he'd specifically need to know it's safe to pretend to be a Cop pushing a fakeclaim and that there'd be enough Cop flips by the start of day 2 that people would assume something's up and predict the Godfathers. Without the two cop flips happening his play doesn't make any sense from a survival perspective and the only way he'd know that people would see two cop flips and predict the setup as scum is if he knew everyone was a cop

Ok, I think I understand what you're saying. I feel like trading one scum in order to kill the Disloyal Cop would probably be a good move, but even then there's no guarantee that everyone just pushes Drew D2. There's a real possibility he could push a Lap fade through and still survive D2

Sure but it's a lot riskier than just shooting Lap at night for the benefit of maybe hitting an extra PR instead of being forced to shoot Lap, the cost/benefit doesn't add up

Idk maybe this is just a disagreement on game theory but I think the benefit of fading Lap and not being forced to NK him far outweighs the risk of losing Drew

[Black]

Notably, while none of their posting is objectively scummy, vibecheck wise I hard scumread usesPython for page 67.

Mmhmm. I'm getting somewhat of an informed vibe from their reads on Drew and I. If python is scum I think Drew is probably spewed town

[usesPython]

Also you just keep ignoring that it’s plausible we had some kind of semi-gated PR that could protect Laplacian night 1.

Again, trading a scum member to prevent a green check is a bad trade when you can just not do that and shoot BG, then Lap and then their check instead

I seriously doubt the person who hammers a somewhat strange-looking claim is always voted off the next day. So it’s not really trading a scum member. how about if there’s like a 2-shot doctor? If you don’t push Lap you’re in deep trouble. Scum!Drew was in a rush though. He didn’t have much time to consider all possible scenarios and likely just thought fading Lap seemed safest and most optimal in the heat of the moment.

2-shot Doctor with an ungated cop would never pass balance

Source: Our lost sanity in Normal Idea Mafia where it got randed

[Black]

"We don't like Blacks posting"

"Sounds like a consolidation wagon"

??? Why are people townreading ketchup again?

Reading ketchup has been pretty difficult for me because in the one game I played with him he posted scummy stuff as town pretty consistently. Then he would randomly have an obvtown post. That's the same behavior I'm seeing here so I don't think I'm interested in voting there currently

[Black]

VOTE: Titus

I wouldn't mind this though

@python care to join me?

[usesPython]

Like the most townsided follow the cop setup that would ever pass is 1-shot doctor, more realistically 1-shot BG. Most of the time though it's just gonna be a Cop with no protectives, Macho Cop if you want protectives in the setup

[usesPython]

VOTE: Titus

I wouldn't mind this though

@python care to join me?

Why is Titus scum, so far we've only seen the Ranger argument that hinges on scum being informed about the setup

[ketchup777]

Setup Information

Basic Information

Spoiler:

1. This setup is questionable. In fact, it was inspired by the questionable things you can do under normal guidelines thread!
2. There is no guarantee that this game contains any of the ideas in that thread. There is also no guarantee that this game doesn't contain any of the ideas in that thread.

3. Other than not having gone through a formal NRG review, which it most certainly wouldn't pass, the setup violates the letter of Normal guidelines in only one way. It does, however, violate the

spirit

of Normal guidelines in every way possible.[/spoiler]

Spoiler:

4. Even though this game isn't technically Normal, it is tagged as Complex in accordance with Normal guidelines.
5. This game uses Natural Action Resolution.
6. Global daytalk is enabled, meaning all PTs are open during the day even without an encryptor.
7. Inherent multitasking is enabled, meaning that by default, players may perform up to one personal action and one factional action per night.

Win Conditions

8. Each faction wins if all players not aligned with that faction are dead and a minimum of one player aligned with that faction is alive.
9. The game will be declared a draw if:
- all living players request one (this must be done via PM)
- everyone dies
- no one dies for three consecutive day-night cycles (or six consecutive phases)
- the game reaches a position in which one of the above is inevitable or no side has the means to meet its win condition
10. The mafia may concede if all of its living members wish to.

Sample Role PMs

Spoiler:

Sample Vanilla Townie

Welcome, [Player], to Mini Theme 2330!

You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Abilities:

You have no special abilities.

Win Condition:

You win if all players not aligned with the town are dead and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Please confirm by replying with the name of your role.

Sample Mafia Goon

Welcome, [Player], to Mini Theme 2330!

You are a

Mafia Goon

. Your partners are [Players].

Abilities:

Factional Communication - You may talk to your partners at any time here.
Factional Kill - Each night, your faction may send one of its members to target another player. Assuming no interference with this action, the target will die. You have access to the factional kill.

Win Condition:

You win if all players not aligned with the mafia are dead and at least one mafia-aligned player is alive, or if nothing can prevent this from occurring.

Please confirm by replying with the name of your role or by posting in the mafia PT.

[/spoiler]

Also you just keep ignoring that it’s plausible we had some kind of semi-gated PR that could protect Laplacian night 1.

Again, trading a scum member to prevent a green check is a bad trade when you can just not do that and shoot BG, then Lap and then their check instead

I seriously doubt the person who hammers a somewhat strange-looking claim is always voted off the next day. So it’s not really trading a scum member. how about if there’s like a 2-shot doctor? If you don’t push Lap you’re in deep trouble. Scum!Drew was in a rush though. He didn’t have much time to consider all possible scenarios and likely just thought fading Lap seemed safest and most optimal in the heat of the moment.

2-shot Doctor with an ungated cop would never pass balance

Source: Our lost sanity in Normal Idea Mafia where it got randed

This game hasn’t passed a setup review, which you should know if you were claiming to have read the rules and setup info? I agree it’s very unlikely we got that much power, but then again, with 9 cops why is there any reasons we’d work out the disloyal cop was the one to protect? If we did, shouldn’t that be rewarded?

[Black]

It's mainly a vibe read for me. I didn't like her posting between pages 57-61. Felt kinda like she was panicking a little after getting wagoned. Then her "strong scumlean" on PC vanished and her justification for it didn't feel good. She has yet to respond to my post questioning her about this which makes me think she doesn't have a good answer and is just avoiding it hoping I won't notice

[ketchup777]

It's mainly a vibe read for me. I didn't like her posting between pages 57-61. Felt kinda like she was panicking a little after getting wagoned. Then her "strong scumlean" on PC vanished and her justification for it didn't feel good. She has yet to respond to my post questioning her about this which makes me think she doesn't have a good answer and is just avoiding it hoping I won't notice

This is a good post, black returns to townside

[usesPython]

It wouldn't pass NRG because it violates the spirit or what a Normal game is expected to be. You can still have balanced non-normal games (which seems to be this setup)

Reason why you can expect this game to be in the ballpark of balanced is cause Mafia is a game that's designed to be fun and a ridiculously one-sided setup tends to be pretty unfun

[ketchup777]

It wouldn't pass NRG because it violates the spirit or what a Normal game is expected to be. You can still have balanced non-normal games (which seems to be this setup)

Reason why you can expect this game to be in the ballpark of balanced is cause Mafia is a game that's designed to be fun and a ridiculously one-sided setup tends to be pretty unfun

In the rules post I literally just quoted Alianna said it violates the spirit of Normal games in every way possible.?.?.?.?..

[ketchup777]

and as it’s a closed setup I don’t view that as ridiculously one-sided, just swingy as to who works out the disloyal cop first. Scum could well be informed, which I thought was a good point I made recently but you didn’t acknowledge it, which inclines me to believe you might be informed scum trying to hide my thoughts

[usesPython]

[quote=usesPython post_id=14115652 post_num=1786 time=<a href="tel:1709836206" style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">1709836206</a> user_id=36963]
It wouldn't pass NRG because it violates the spirit or what a Normal game is expected to be. You can still have balanced non-normal games (which seems to be this setup)

Reason why you can expect this game to be in the ballpark of balanced is cause Mafia is a game that's designed to be fun and a ridiculously one-sided setup tends to be pretty unfun

In the rules post I literally just quoted Alianna said it violates the spirit of Normal games in every way possible.?.?.?.?..
[/quote]I mean you're wrong by definition since this setup seems to just be godfathers vs a disloyal cop, a bunch of useless cops, a named townie, and then an unspecified but low amount of modifier cops which would absolutely pass normal review if it was reflavored as something like

Normal Version

1. Mafia Goon
   
   
2. Mafia Goon
   
   
3. Mafia Goon
   
   
4. Town Disloyal Cop
   
   
5. Town Rolecop
   (Simulates a Simple/Complex Cop in this setup)
   
6. Town Activated Innocent Child
   (The VT slot here)
   
7. Vanilla Townie
   
   
8. Vanilla Townie
   
   
9. Vanilla Townie
   
   
10. Vanilla Townie
    
    
11. Vanilla Townie
    
    
12. Vanilla Townie
    
    
13. Vanilla Townie

This is functionally equivalent to the setup we're in outside of the cop claim stuff and would pass review without much issue, therefore it doesn't violate balance considerations

[ketchup777]

@Doctor Drew, can you explain why you investigated Python?

[ketchup777]

@Python you can make as many arguments as you want but I just belive it’s optimal for scum!Drew to take the easy Lap fade. Especially 1051 felt like a very forced search for the smallest excuse to take Lap out

[ketchup777]

@Python, how far into the night did you submit your cop night action?

[Black]

@Python you can make as many arguments as you want but I just belive it’s optimal for scum!Drew to take the easy Lap fade. Especially 1051 felt like a very forced search for the smallest excuse to take Lap out

Yep. The fade was literally at their fingertips. If they don't fade Lap there then they literally have to NK him at some point which is a whole NK wasted when they could have just faded him. Not to mention the possibility of Lap being protected/jailed

[Black]

I don't think python/Drew can both be scum though. I feel like python is more likely to bus their teammate instead of hard defend them

[usesPython]

@Python, how far into the night did you submit your cop night action?

When we woke up and saw enchant replaced in, why? (Also check that this isn't falling under breaking the rules in the same vein as asking for details about role PMs or other mod communication before you go further cause this sounds pretty angleshooty)

[Black]

I guess I could be wrong about that so it's probably just unlikely as opposed to impossible

[ketchup777]

[quote=usesPython post_id=14115652 post_num=1786 time=<a href="tel:1709836206" style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">1709836206</a> user_id=36963]
It wouldn't pass NRG because it violates the spirit or what a Normal game is expected to be. You can still have balanced non-normal games (which seems to be this setup)

Reason why you can expect this game to be in the ballpark of balanced is cause Mafia is a game that's designed to be fun and a ridiculously one-sided setup tends to be pretty unfun

In the rules post I literally just quoted Alianna said it violates the spirit of Normal games in every way possible.?.?.?.?..

I mean you're wrong by definition since this setup seems to just be godfathers vs a disloyal cop, a bunch of useless cops, a named townie, and then an unspecified but low amount of modifier cops which would absolutely pass normal review if it was reflavored as something like

Normal Version

1. Mafia Goon
   
   
2. Mafia Goon
   
   
3. Mafia Goon
   
   
4. Town Disloyal Cop
   
   
5. Town Rolecop
   (Simulates a Simple/Complex Cop in this setup)
   
6. Town Activated Innocent Child
   (The VT slot here)
   
7. Vanilla Townie
   
   
8. Vanilla Townie
   
   
9. Vanilla Townie
   
   
10. Vanilla Townie
    
    
11. Vanilla Townie
    
    
12. Vanilla Townie
    
    
13. Vanilla Townie

This is functionally equivalent to the setup we're in outside of the cop claim stuff and would pass review without much issue, therefore it doesn't violate balance considerations
[/quote]

VT is very much not equivalent to an activated innocent child. how do you know scum wouldn’t have tried to fakeclaim VT? maybe Python is informed scum: informed that there is only one VT

[ketchup777]

quoting messed up so copying:

VT is very much not equivalent to an activated innocent child. how do you know scum wouldn’t have tried to fakeclaim VT? maybe Python is informed scum: informed that there is only one VT

[ketchup777]

@Python, how far into the night did you submit your cop night action?

When we woke up and saw enchant replaced in, why? (Also check that this isn't falling under breaking the rules in the same vein as asking for details about role PMs or other mod communication before you go further cause this sounds pretty angleshooty)

ok, the first line is what I was looking for