Mini 2332: A Mid-scummer Nights Dream II | GG

[Sunflower]

when i actually read the thread i can get back to you on that but for now there's really not much i can do about this whole DE thing, it was a read fire had proposed to me and i agreed with it

[Sunflower]

yooo pagetop

[Catgirl Chipotle]

You have Gimli claiming i'm a roach, Dragoneater screaming behind me about how a hairball ended up in his burrito, Doctor Drew behind me. Wrath of the slide king was lit bro. It is what it is.

Also if ur name is "DragonEater70" "JupiterXV" "Black" or "Aureal" please limit your posting to 0-3 posts a day. 100 posts is manageable but every post matters. A response is not required nor recommended. Thank you for your cooperation.

It is my personal opinion that this day should end once people start using up their extra posts.


Von Payne is town.
Dragon is town. This explanation is for Prism mostly but my initial opinion is that Dragon's initial vote on Klick I thought was something that came from town.
Sunflowers is town.
Silver Ravens is gut town
Kyoko is gut town.
Klick gets a d1 pass and is probably just town.

Ydra I think is a gut wolf and Gimli is my initial suspect but ultimately I still haven't really processed everything nor am I in a rush to. I think what I have so far is a good start.

[Catgirl Chipotle]

VOTE: Sunflower

[Gimli]

I'll make this my one organized post with reads from last game phase. I suggest we make a combined effort to not waste a single post more than we should for thoughts, as other people will surely do that and make d1 even more asfixiating than it already is. while this will feel very 'correspondence mafia', it's not unplayable and I'm sure most people can do that. there are 13 of us and only 100 posts, so that means each player has 7 posts to make on average. if you're going over that, you're removing the chance that someone else can speak up, so try not to if you care, I guess.

I took the time to re-read parts of the game thread while the game was locked, and am gonna do my best to provide content on each player later, but its really late so I'm just gonna post a few thoughts that I had.

Silver Ravens: I like the early mechanical talk cause dunn (I think?) took his time to read the setup before providing advice. in real time I didn't like dunn's push on me, but both heads of the hydra seem to have towny energy. I like GIF's #422 pushing hutao, and also #352 has a light aureal push that I agree with, re: long posts with not a lot of meaningful content in them. I also think that between hutao and aureal there's probably, hopefully, at least one scum, since a bunch of other slots feel towny and they don't. as we can't interact in real time in a super meaningful way anymore, Silver Ravens is definitely safe for d1 as far as I'm concerned. Happy to put it on a townpile.

AD: I don't think we had anything from AD that's particularly telling of his alignment, other than I felt his #200 catch up is overtly critical of content people are posting in a way that I'm not convinced is leading AD to discern alignments, so I get the impression he could be potentially faking the scumhunt instead of genuinely doing so. it has become my go to safe flipping place for this gameday as he is more or less indiscernable/nullscum, but I might change my mind as thoughts progresses.

ali+mariar: I think they're town, I expect maria to scumread me when she is town and I think I expect alisae to be stubborn about mechanics.

aureal: aureal is just very, very different in this game. almost unrecognizably so. she said she changed her style somewhat and isn't doing the things she was doing to avoid getting into tvt battles, and I get that. but she isn't really flowing at all and I felt her interaction with DE was somewhat exaggerated on her end, like she was trying to make him feel guilty for the scumread.

hu tao: just as GIF described, seems to be taking a LAMIST 'I don't know anything' style to the gamethread that feels artificial and might point to scum acting up on being clueless for easy townleans. we just finished a game where hu tao was the d1 miselim and I understand the player's style makes her wagonable, but I also have the feeling that hu tao was kinda towny in death note, which had equally complicated mechanics.

so anyway those are some thoughts before hitting the sack.

[Gimli]

VOTE: hu tao

[DragonEater70]

I am definitely going to be limiting my posting. Thank you for caring about it Catgirls, that's very considerate of you.

As I'd said earlier, I don't really have any serious scumreads. I'd be willing to vote anyone whose username is not Klick/Gimli/Sunflower/Catgirl Chipotle. However I guess I do have SOME preferences:

1. Let's not vote Aureal Day 1 because she's likelier town than not and if she's town she's going to have more reads later, at which point she'll be easier to read and also pretty useful for finding scum. Also I am doing this to prove Aureal I don't have a deep burning desire to annoy her like she might think I have :p

2. My nullscums are currently Prism and Ravens. Prism for her approach to the game which uses a lot of true evidence to explain a read that doesn't really correlate to that evidence while ignoring evidence that points otherwise; Ravens because of their exchange with Gimli where they called Gimli disingenuous for using contradictory definitions of meta or something. I'll note that after my exchange with Black, she went back to true null over null scum. I could wagon one of these but my confidence in either of them being scum is not veey high at all.

3. My true nulls are Hu Tao, Ydrasse, Von Payne, ActionDan, and Kyoko. I wouldn't be surprised if 2 of them were scum, maybe even three. I would like to try and wagon here today (at the stage where content is still allowed) as a way to sort them. I also wouldn't mind a lim going through on them I guess.


I would also like to issue a warning to everyone: this game most likely has PRs (there was a mason duo amd two minor TPRs in the last game). PLEASE make sure that once content posts run out, you do not post anything. Because if you are a PR and get to E-1, you will need a content post to claim your role.

Also, I would like to suggest that voting no elim and then immediately unvoting should be used as a sign meaning "intent to hammer".

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Sunflower]

VOTE: ActionDan

[Hu Tao]

Sure we can eliminate me. I have 0 clue what's happening anyway sorry

VOTE: hu tao

[Hu Tao]

I am definitely going to be limiting my posting. Thank you for caring about it Catgirls, that's very considerate of you.

As I'd said earlier, I don't really have any serious scumreads. I'd be willing to vote anyone whose username is not Klick/Gimli/Sunflower/Catgirl Chipotle. However I guess I do have SOME preferences:

1. Let's not vote Aureal Day 1 because she's likelier town than not and if she's town she's going to have more reads later, at which point she'll be easier to read and also pretty useful for finding scum. Also I am doing this to prove Aureal I don't have a deep burning desire to annoy her like she might think I have :p

2. My nullscums are currently Prism and Ravens. Prism for her approach to the game which uses a lot of true evidence to explain a read that doesn't really correlate to that evidence while ignoring evidence that points otherwise; Ravens because of their exchange with Gimli where they called Gimli disingenuous for using contradictory definitions of meta or something. I'll note that after my exchange with Black, she went back to true null over null scum. I could wagon one of these but my confidence in either of them being scum is not veey high at all.

3. My true nulls are Hu Tao, Ydrasse, Von Payne, ActionDan, and Kyoko. I wouldn't be surprised if 2 of them were scum, maybe even three. I would like to try and wagon here today (at the stage where content is still allowed) as a way to sort them. I also wouldn't mind a lim going through on them I guess.


I would also like to issue a warning to everyone: this game most likely has PRs (there was a mason duo amd two minor TPRs in the last game). PLEASE make sure that once content posts run out, you do not post anything. Because if you are a PR and get to E-1, you will need a content post to claim your role.

Also, I would like to suggest that voting no elim and then immediately unvoting should be used as a sign meaning "intent to hammer".

VOTE: Hu Tao

Err what's the VT of this game called?

[Catgirl Chipotle]

VOTE: hu tao

[Silver Ravens]

VOTE: I will burn a potential single post to test if this gets counted lmao, and if this counts as a post I’m gonna have to work with Dunn to post things from this point because I am definitely not a longposter and I tend to post as I think of something to say. Also Drew I don’t need an experience with Dragon to see that he likes to post when this game has been enough. Also

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Silver Ravens]

UNVOTE:

[Silver Ravens]

You have Gimli claiming i'm a roach, Dragoneater screaming behind me about how a hairball ended up in his burrito, Doctor Drew behind me. Wrath of the slide king was lit bro. It is what it is.

Also if ur name is "DragonEater70" "JupiterXV" "Black" or "Aureal" please limit your posting to 0-3 posts a day. 100 posts is manageable but every post matters. A response is not required nor recommended. Thank you for your cooperation.

It is my personal opinion that this day should end once people start using up their extra posts.


Von Payne is town.
Dragon is town. This explanation is for Prism mostly but my initial opinion is that Dragon's initial vote on Klick I thought was something that came from town.
Sunflowers is town.
Silver Ravens is gut town
Kyoko is gut town.
Klick gets a d1 pass and is probably just town.

Ydra I think is a gut wolf and Gimli is my initial suspect but ultimately I still haven't really processed everything nor am I in a rush to. I think what I have so far is a good start.

VOTE: Sunflower

You call Sunflower town and then vote them why? Is this two different hydra heads?

----

Sure we can eliminate me. I have 0 clue what's happening anyway sorry

VOTE: hu tao

This makes no sense if you are town. To me this looks like you are hoping to use reverse psychology to make us not want to vote for you do to no survival instinct.

It makes even less sense when your next post is asking what the vt of the game is called - implying that you are

not

VT, in which case you should not be OK with rolling over like this.

Also, I would consider claiming in your position unless something changes, so we have time to discuss things if we intend to move the vote elsewhere

----

Mechanically, that is two neutral/useless dreams and two negative dreams. Basic balance essentially requires dreams to be net +EV, but I'll drop that assumption for now.

Yes I was expecting to have seen something that would benefit the town, and have to play around discards and other potential special abilities. This dream that we've gotten leans more towards bad/negative than the slide one did, as this one might really influence what happens today.

----

2. My nullscums are currently Prism and Ravens. Prism for her approach to the game which uses a lot of true evidence to explain a read that doesn't really correlate to that evidence while ignoring evidence that points otherwise; Ravens because of their exchange with Gimli where they called Gimli disingenuous for using contradictory definitions of meta or something. I'll note that after my exchange with Black, she went back to true null over null scum. I could wagon one of these but my confidence in either of them being scum is not veey high at all.

How or why is what you've outlined here from us scum indicative? Can you explain your reasoning?

Also, for Prism, where are they ignoring evidence? What are they ignoring?

----

Also, I would like to suggest that voting no elim and then immediately unvoting should be used as a sign meaning "intent to hammer".

Sure, this is a good idea.

----

I am going to be discussing reads with GiF internally, we seem to have different schedules at the moment. What I'm most interested in is for Hu Tao to respond to this post and explain their thought process in voting themself, and consider claiming their role, as that is the direction the thread is moving so far.

I am also interested in Dragoneater expanding on their thoughts above.

This is post 17/100 today.

[Klick]

VOTE: Prism

[Hu Tao]

Okay everyone is voting but not answering my question. What's the VT called this game?

[Gimli]

UNVOTE:

[Sunflower]

some thoughts

- me and jupiter will mostly be solving with each other this phase and posting more condensed thoughts. jupiter says sorry for the pagetop post. since everyone is going to be limited in their posting i would recommend that people use their vote more actively than they otherwise would. we're not going to get much out of engagement or real time sorting this phase, but we should definitely have wagons and movement on them.

- hu tao my impression is they tend to have a decent mechanical understanding and interest as town so their confusion here does feel kinda performative. i don't really think this game is that complicated so far, at least for town? but the way the votes have piled on there specifically when i think there's several other equally low-info-nullscum-ish options felt a little strange to me so i think having alternative wagons here is good

- gimli's posting still feels really sketchy to me. jupiter doesn't agree as much with this one but i read a lot of gimli when trying to sort him in hollow knight and i think as scum he has this way of framing his arguments where it feels like he's appealing to a crowd and trying to convince people rather than genuinely solving. his approach to dragon looks way closer to building allies than sorting. the whole thing about the slide was over the top as well

- some potentially hot take townleans are aureal and ydra. i remember thinking aureal was pretty scummy when i played with town!her in scarfolk, but eventually i think i came to an understanding of her style and i think the response to dragon feels distinctly like town!her, and doesn't feel like a route she'd take as scum. ydra the slide thing just feels like she's having fun in a way that is very town!ydra energy and i think as scum especially lately theres always been a little bit of straining in her posts to get into a certain position. i did misread her in the MU game we played (sadness and agony) but this feels different, and jupiter also gut townread her early.

- i think the consensus on catgirls as town is a little early bc i think scum!alisae played stubbornly around mech in warrior cats and both are very good scum players. but i like both of their approaches so far and i think of the stronger voices in the game i feel most inclined towards wanting to follow them for now. jupiter townreads them more strongly.

- jupiter has gotten some gut scumpings from a few black posts but i don't really see it. it partly came from the early dragon read i think, but personally i think the way she let up on that and re-evaled felt more like solving. overall nullish.

- actiondan ive only seen as scum before but the approach of bursts of catchups with some kinda busy work replies to early posts, then periods of silence, feels very similar. and he's definitely capable of and willing to fake the self-righteous tone. skimming some town games it feels like he's usually much more engaged in prodding at things rather than reacting to them. here there isn't much of anything proactive -- he gets to a point where he's "settled his balances" of catching up and replying to any direct questions, and then doesn't do anything more. i would be interested to know why prism has him near the top of her townreads.

[DragonEater70]

VOTE: ActionDan

[Prism]

I don't appreciate Hu Tao refusing to play towards her win condition regardless of alignment. The other players are putting in effort. Return the favor.

I'm eager to here more from Kirigiri today. I hope her headache has improved. If Hu Tao starts actually starts playing, I'd prefer to vote there.

I will lay my full cards on the table for my Dragon read.

Spoiler: My hand

First, there is the point that Dragon townreading people fast and early is in line. I agree with it. The second point is that he is usually confident in his own towniness and perhaps entitled. I, again, agree.

So where do we diverge? I have higher expectations for Dragon's ability to adapt and emulate the basics. I found the lack of early pressure a surface-level anomaly, but what made my second spot, the absence of his usual kneejerk hostility, valuable was that Dragons probably wasn't aware of his own bad tendency.

Then comes 143, which I disliked as an overly self-conscious post. As I discussed earlier with Catgirl, players start realizing at the intermediate level that being vulnerable and open about their insecurities can help, even as scum. They usually overuse it instead of selectively using it at the right times. This doesn't mean the player is bad: it's just a growing pain I've seen play out over and over.

I thought 143 fit that mental model. The best test is to immediately shove the person, just destroy that newly discovered comfort and see whether they panic. So I quickly shot off the dayvig comment and polished up the follow-up in 146. I felt middling about the reaction I got: it wasn't panic, but the attempt to distinguish this game from Pizza Kids as being fundamentally different contexts was unpersuasive and a reach (the utility of early pressure doesn't vary much between the two setups). The town model I expected was "Yeah I'm just going with my reads and playing differently."

My read doesn't evolve much from there. Dragon's increased skepticism of me was expected either way, as town because that's what he does, as scum because I just pointed out it's what he does. 288 is mostly a refinement of the distinction point but adds sleep deprivation, which I'd already acknowledged prior.

Beyond this, the read hasn't evolved as much as I'd like. There are many posts that are fine but not difficult to fake. I need more information about whether our other reads being in line is town-indicative The only other behavior that threw me was random posts that are intentionally counterintuitive, because they feel like being counterintuitive is the performative goal instead of a means to an end.

At the end of the day, he's sitting in nullscum, but I'd be surprised if I didn't just figure him out through a metadive on Day 2/Day 3. Dragon seems to think I ignore his counterpoints or the behaviors others see as town, but I'm not. They're just outweighed, largely because I expect him to more easily emulate those behaviors.

For Ravens, Catgirl voted Sunflower because Jupiter burned 3 posts for essentially no reason, with the pagetop being especially egregious. I thought about doing the same or burning a post lecturing them, but I thought I'd get a "more posting" outcome so I didn't.

I revisited Aureal yesterday. She should probably go higher up on my list, probably at 4/5. I really want to play with her but I felt meh about the tone of 535 and 552. Maybe it's a legitimate and personalized read, but the goal might have been to vent while avoiding drawing the Dragon hostile reactivity.

[Hu Tao]

I don't appreciate Hu Tao refusing to play towards her win condition regardless of alignment. The other players are putting in effort. Return the favor.

I'm eager to here more from Kirigiri today. I hope her headache has improved. If Hu Tao starts actually starts playing, I'd prefer to vote there.

I will lay my full cards on the table for my Dragon read.

Spoiler: My hand

First, there is the point that Dragon townreading people fast and early is in line. I agree with it. The second point is that he is usually confident in his own towniness and perhaps entitled. I, again, agree.

So where do we diverge? I have higher expectations for Dragon's ability to adapt and emulate the basics. I found the lack of early pressure a surface-level anomaly, but what made my second spot, the absence of his usual kneejerk hostility, valuable was that Dragons probably wasn't aware of his own bad tendency.

Then comes 143, which I disliked as an overly self-conscious post. As I discussed earlier with Catgirl, players start realizing at the intermediate level that being vulnerable and open about their insecurities can help, even as scum. They usually overuse it instead of selectively using it at the right times. This doesn't mean the player is bad: it's just a growing pain I've seen play out over and over.

I thought 143 fit that mental model. The best test is to immediately shove the person, just destroy that newly discovered comfort and see whether they panic. So I quickly shot off the dayvig comment and polished up the follow-up in 146. I felt middling about the reaction I got: it wasn't panic, but the attempt to distinguish this game from Pizza Kids as being fundamentally different contexts was unpersuasive and a reach (the utility of early pressure doesn't vary much between the two setups). The town model I expected was "Yeah I'm just going with my reads and playing differently."

My read doesn't evolve much from there. Dragon's increased skepticism of me was expected either way, as town because that's what he does, as scum because I just pointed out it's what he does. 288 is mostly a refinement of the distinction point but adds sleep deprivation, which I'd already acknowledged prior.

Beyond this, the read hasn't evolved as much as I'd like. There are many posts that are fine but not difficult to fake. I need more information about whether our other reads being in line is town-indicative The only other behavior that threw me was random posts that are intentionally counterintuitive, because they feel like being counterintuitive is the performative goal instead of a means to an end.

At the end of the day, he's sitting in nullscum, but I'd be surprised if I didn't just figure him out through a metadive on Day 2/Day 3. Dragon seems to think I ignore his counterpoints or the behaviors others see as town, but I'm not. They're just outweighed, largely because I expect him to more easily emulate those behaviors.

For Ravens, Catgirl voted Sunflower because Jupiter burned 3 posts for essentially no reason, with the pagetop being especially egregious. I thought about doing the same or burning a post lecturing them, but I thought I'd get a "more posting" outcome so I didn't.

I revisited Aureal yesterday. She should probably go higher up on my list, probably at 4/5. I really want to play with her but I felt meh about the tone of 535 and 552. Maybe it's a legitimate and personalized read, but the goal might have been to vent while avoiding drawing the Dragon hostile reactivity.

Everyone making long paragraphs but not answering one question. I'm trying not to make the post count go up more. But can someone just answer. Is it VT or some other name. Or is no one just a VT?

Pedit. I'll just add the post I was about to post to this. But I am trying but no one is answering my question.

[Prism]

You can find the sample VT PM here. Typically, every game includes one somewhere at the start.

[Hu Tao]

You can find the sample VT PM here. Typically, every game includes one somewhere at the start.

Thanks but that was annoying. Unfortunately I need to try this game or everyone will probably hate me

UNVOTE:

I will say this is not the type of game for me I don't like making long posts and I prefer to catch up in multiple posts so it'll be a pain.

[Hu Tao]

VOTE: cat girl chipotle

[Prism]

VOTE: Kirigiri