Mini 2331 - Touhou UPick: Anonymous Edition (Game Over)

[Ichirin Kumoi]

For me, it’s just an internal clock thing. Brain says move game forward.

I deleted most of this post because I’m pretty sure it would be a strawman.

You could really do with an reassessment of game state then.

[Yuuka Kazami]

I hear your disappointment. I don’t like switching my vote back after just getting a claim, but well. Your tone to me and goodness knows I cannot truly read or understand others. Seems genuine enough to me. Sorry if wrong Kage. Well, I’m sure you’ll get the elimination over the hill without me regardless if you really want it.

VOTE: Koishi

[Kagerou Imaizumi]

Well, which ones do you think are bad faith?

You, Kagerou and Clownpiece for sure, Koishi could be trying to coast along without having to give in-depth analysis on me as an easy mislim, as I theorized. Otherwise I think Sanae and Tenshi just aren't really bothering to put in the effort to read me.

That's still like 4 townies at least who are legitimately thinking you're scum, i'm especially curious how clown is "in bad faith" where like, her case on you is quite voluminous

[Kagerou Imaizumi]

I hear your disappointment. I don’t like switching my vote back after just getting a claim, but well. Your tone to me and goodness knows I cannot truly read or understand others. Seems genuine enough to me. Sorry if wrong Kage. Well, I’m sure you’ll get the elimination over the hill without me regardless if you really want it.

VOTE: Koishi

You seem to be under the impression that i'm some kind of dark force with mind control powers

[Yuuka Kazami]

I am actually too tired to parse that, lol

[Kagerou Imaizumi]

go to sleep girl

[Kagerou Imaizumi]

I think Yuuka's paranoia on me comes from a town place ? Like, i don't think scum acts like that

[Yuuka Kazami]

I hear your disappointment (ichirin). I don’t like switching my vote back after just getting a claim, but well. Your tone to me and goodness knows I cannot truly read or understand others. Seems genuine enough to me(ichi). Sorry if wrong Kage(about thinking ichirin might be town). Well, I’m sure you’ll get the elimination over the hill without me regardless if you really want it(kagerou).

VOTE: Koishi

Fixed.

I have paranoia of everyone. Some have placated my paranoia very well(larvae), others not so much.

[Kaguya Houraisan]

I still exist, catching up now

[Daiyousei]

@Dai, in response to 1496

i agree that a tenshi vote in 553 is telegraphed by 385 and 421! however, those posts are not justifications for changing the vote from me to tenshi in 553; if anything, the read list in 385 is justification for keeping it on me, which is why i asked about it in the first place

One thing, I disagree with this whole basis that started off your questioning. I think it is pretty clear why Kagerou stopped voting you and started voting Tenshi.

Spoiler: Kagerou quotes

Tenshi Hinanawi - ok so maybe this is more a null read but like i kinda completely forgot who this was so not the greatest look i think

actually hmmm

one thing i find weird is how Marisa didn't include Tenshi in her vote pool

VOTE: Tenshi

I think voting my 3rd strongest scumread is more interesting than voting you, and i invite anyone else who's on the fence with Tenshi to do the same

I'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you, i feel like the general avoidance around this slot could come from a place of more well inserted scumbuddies uneasy with the idea of drawing the light to their weak like

save a townie, join the Tenshi wagon

I mean, Tenshi is a slot that's been relatively spared of scrutiny since the start right?

Granted, you could make that case for a lot of people, i just think it points to Tenshi cause they both never received that much pressure and don't put themselves that fowards

before you leave give me gun to head a read on Tenshi

Like, it is all pretty consistent when I look at them.

-They voiced the fact that they had forgotten about tenshi, and tenshi was going under the radar, and that that was a bad thing.
-They then saw someone else (marisa) appear to overlook (accidentally or willfully) tenshi's existence, so they vote tenshi to try and draw more attention to tenshi.
-they invite other people to vote tenshi to force more people to talk about tenshi.
-they repeat that they are more interested in what people have to say about tenshi
-they call for tenshi votes
-reiterate that they dont like that tenshi is flying under the radar
-ask someone point blank for a tenshi read

There is a pretty consistent PoV on Tenshi through out this, that paints a pretty clear picture on why they moved their vote from you -> tenshi.

You later build onto this by saying that they were not digging into other people enough for their answer of "I wanted more people to talk about Tenshi" to be real, but that is not catching them in a lie.

Like sure, this could be scum who was just faking interest in Tenshi reads, but it could also just as easily be town who was interested in tenshi reads, but then the thread went other directions and their focus went with it, so they ended up talking about other topics after moving their votes.

I also feel like the original point that we disagreed on, where you felt like moving their vote in the first place was not justified, is a PoV difference that colors out view on this.

But either way, I simply don't see it as a smoking gun scum case the way you do.

This is, again, misunderstanding (or misinterpreting) my case.

I saw 385. I didn't have an immediate problem with a Tenshi suspicion given the stated reasoning of "i kinda completely forgot who this was". In fact, my question in 560 linked to 385 and indirectly acknowledged Tenshi's relative position on it. My question in 385, updated to proper syntax for clarity, was

not

"Why are you voting Tenshi?". It was "Why are you voting Tenshi

instead of me, who is lower on your list

?" Another (even wordier) way to word this question would be "I see and acknowledge your Tenshi suspicion. However, you previously indicated you did not feel as strongly about Tenshi being Mafia as you did about me being Mafia. What changed?"

So we get to Kagerou's first reponse in 563. Of note:

If Kagerou's response in 563 is something like "I thought about it some more and decided that me forgetting about Tenshi and no one talking about Tenshi makes me more suspicious of her than you", or "I don't like how Marisa didn't include Tenshi in her vote pool, and that was enough to put Tenshi lower than you", then we would not be having this conversation.

(We might be having a different one, because I would have wondered why Marisa excluding Tenshi from Marisa's vote pool would have made Kagerou want to vote Tenshi more when Marisa was her top townread in 385, but that's a slightly different matter.) But this is not the answer we get; instead, we get that "I think voting my 3rd strongest scumread is more interesting than voting you, and i invite anyone else who's on the fence with Tenshi to do the same"[1], which is a useless response on its own but at least invites the obvious follow-up question posed in 642, asking why a Tenshi vote is more interesting than a vote for me. It is 655 where we get "I'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you, i feel like the general avoidance around this slot could come from a place of more well inserted scumbuddies uneasy with the idea of drawing the light to their weak link (sic)". This is a useful, workable answer, because if it is true, then it is observable. (It doesn't even matter than the implication of the answer is "Nothing changed, I still see you as more likely to be Mafia.")

To be as clear as I think I can be, at this juncture, the answer to the question "Why are you voting Tenshi instead of me, who is lower on your list?" is "I'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you". This is the response I have to work with in terms of investigating the vote change. So I go back to the vote in 553 and recheck all of Kagerou's posts from there up to 655, because, assuming the statement in 655 about the vote in 553 is true, there would be evidence of it in the posts between.

There is no evidence the statement in 655 about the vote in 553 is true in the posts between. Not one, despite several opportunities to do so. This is why the statement in 655 is a lie.

I don't care about posts after 655. Anything that comes after 655, like 745, is simply "Now that I've said the thing, I need to act accordingly".

[1]"i invite anyone else who's on the fence with Tenshi to do the same" is not a valid attempt to draw out stances. It is equivalent to "source: dude trust me" in the grand scheme of trying to drive engagement for a vote in a Mafia game.

[Daiyousei]

Well you see according to Daiyousei town can only do one thing at the time and i should've ran my head into the wall multiple times to try to squeeze pressure out of it or something

Obviously this was not a case of "you must ask about it at every opportunity". Asking about it once or twice would have been sufficient. This commentary of yours is clearly intentionally disingenuous.

[Daiyousei]

@Dai what do you think of Ichirin? You mentioned feeling neutral early on but I cannot seem to find any other real mention lately, but you've also been trying to get people to read your walls repeatedly so I get that.

I would need the time to go back and reread more closely to elaborate more, but I don't remember much of anything sie's posted all game where I read it and went "well that's suspect". I do remember thinking the initial flashwagon on hir was lazy and the kind of thing one sees all the time in early Day 1s where a townie acts unusual for whatever reason and people are quick to jump all over it. If I were to psychoanalyze myself, I imagine I probably subconsciously wrote hir off as Town For Now because of that flashwagon and set hir aside to be reconsidered later once flips started happening.

[Clownpiece]

Clownpiece has just been pushing me with shit like "Yeah that feels fake. Yeah I think that's scummy. Also very convenient timing on that catch up Ichirin!" instead of actual arguments

I made multiple cases for why I think you were scum this game. You either did not read my case against you, or you are willfully ignoring it.

Either way this comes across to me as just generic shade against the wagon.

[Kaguya Houraisan]

I'm just gonna be noting stuff that I noticed without really thinking on them until I'm actually caught up cause 17 pages go brr

Spoiler: Page 51

I moved the four items that were misfiled.

The irony of 977 still being misfiled

Comparing the Yuuka wall to the Kaguya wall there's the same number of likes/dislikes but we ended up in different places

I’ll wait to see how things develop with the rest of your walls, but I don’t understand how 232 was worth ten bullet points.

Agreed

Spoiler: Page 52

I said that I don't think that the hyper posters are getting town binned in a harmful way to the game state.

You countered that they still are not getting wagoned.

I further said that that is not a problem in my eyes.

If you misunderstood my first point to be that hyperposters were in danger of miselimination, that is a misread of my original post - not a goal post being moved in my second.

You don't see the problem with not being able to kill half your scumreads cause people are POEing by activity?

Spoiler: Divine Fist "GIANT FUCKING WALL"

Im reserving my vote for when I feel confident on something, whether it is my POE or a scumread. I’m trying to take more of a voyeur approach this game which is probably part of why I’ve been stuck on my own island, but I also feel the desire for some more data to analyze.

I referenced Dai up there, but I can give Dai and Kaguya a look over when I get home tonight.

My gut feels bad about "I also feel the desire for some more data to analyze." because I feel like there were already plenty of things to analyze...? Meh.

Clown can you say some words to me about Kaguya?

i really liked her posts about Marisa. there is a lot of merit to the charisma argument that made me reevaluate Marisa myself

it would be a weird choice for scum in Kaguya's position, who is likely seeing the writing on the wall that she is in the PoE pool, to just throw out a Marisa vote and barely even substantiate or push it? i expect calculated scum to target a potential town bloc player to make a splash or go against the grain in a way that will garner town reads on them and help them escape the elimination pool. Kaguya's stance on Marisa does not feel manipulative in that way and does not further an agenda whatsoever, it keeps her more removed from the "in-crowd" and she doesn't really seem to care

in fact a lot of her scum reads seem to center around the consensus town-read players (Yuuka, Sanae, Marisa) which is a strange strategy as scum when it's likely these players will be influential in deciding the ultimate elimination today

i guess she is also scum reading Reisen who would fit the bill as a viable elimination alternative to herself but i have a soft spot for other players scum-reading Reisen...

I really like this, it's pointing me in the right direction for Kaguya because I'm realizing I kinda like Kaguya's reads (on a towniness level not a "I wanna vote that" level), but that might be because we share some ideas. Also yeah. My heart of hearts still thinks blurting out "I'm town" at 2 votes is an eyebrow-raiser but I don't think that's really relevant now.

I'm trying not to, but off-the-cuff I don't actually think you have a lot of content?
I admit that I'd have to re-read your ISO to confirm that but a lot of what I remember you posting is vibes

I remember Koishi's whole dance bit with Kagerou, which I'm probably stealing in the future lol, but off the top of my head I don't really remember Koishi generating new content otherwise, and even after checking ISO I don't really see anything truly noteworthy by this point? But also Koishi keeps stressing their playstyle and how it pertains to that. I'm withholding proper judgement for now until I go back and specifically evaluate Koishi's 1164 and similar, however, maybe after she completes the set.

Re: Yuuka, is someone shading someone by talking nonsense townie now somehow?

Here is the only post about Yuuka you made before the vote

The assaulted one is the post you’re looking for in exhibit A for” this can’t possibly be real/serious”

They never said it was a joke.
So, I’m not taking it as one.

Horrendous take

You have twisted my position into saying that those post are townie, when in fact I think that it is a Yuuka-ism in a way that is entirely divorced from alignment

I found it a little hard to swallow that you think that Yuuka taking Ichirin's post seriously, and not as a joke, is something that would be based on Yuuka's alignment.

Seeing someone point out something that is "bad" or "wrong" and then voting on it, without drawing the line on why being "bad" or "wrong" in that way is more likely to come from scum instead of town pings me.

Nonsense takes tend to come from scum, it being a Yuukaism is completely irrelevant because I don't know who Yuuka is and don't have a past pattern of behaviour for her. This is also the reason why the scumread got softened after I found out it was a Yuukaism (because those parts no longer applied to the read), why are you ignoring that?

Ding ding ding. It being a "Yuukaism" is wholly irrelevant when it seems pretty clear that she's trying to evaluate a read on me out of it, nonsense or no. In general, I don't like Yuuka just completely ignoring my slot now after 970 but I suppose I did all but tell her to stop riding my dick and I haven't exactly been around until now. Didn't stop her from dredging up old posts before, though.

wow! this is by far the worst post i've seen all game! @_@ it contributes nothing to the hunting process and is obviously designed just to kick a clearly hurting player while they're down

in an iso vacuum i'm still not thrilled with aya's body of work but this post and sanae co-signing it in 598 makes me want absolutely nothing to do with voting aya for the foreseeable future and everything to do with exterminating the kagerou/sanae mafpair asap

I really hate this, I feel like it is trying to exacerbate the situation when I frankly raised an eyebrow at the same quote as Kagerou?

That said, this looks like a really weird way to talk about me when you have much wordier qualifiers on the rest of the people you were asked about? It's not like I haven't been majorly present since your last block of reads, I suspect I'm going to be showing up on this week's episode of Hyperposters Least Wanted, starting John Walsh.

you're in a unique position where i was very much not a fan of your predecessor, but was also starting to rethink that stance because i wasn't sure if it was because she was mafia or because her foundational ideas for how to play differed strongly with mine

and then the replacement happened, which means that i still feel how i felt about the slot prior to the replacement but my concerns may no longer apply going forward

so i couldn't just drop you in either the "interested in voting" bin or the "not interested in voting" bin with any sort of confidence, hence the couched wording

I'm not sure I like how cognizant they are of their own trajectory, however I know that I can be a bit susceptible to this too? But referencing their own posts here felt kinda weird

I can see why there are votes on this slot, although admittedly part of me wonders if there is a disconnect with players struggling with the length of Dai's posting?

Have to disagree here on both counts. I'm not particularly invested in a Dai townread but I do think that Kagerou's post was a little gross in addition to getting what Aya was saying wrong, and while this is an anon game and this means jackshit, I have self-referenced quite a bit in the past and I generally do not believe it's a very inherently alignment-indicative thing to do.

My bias to town read active players is a massive issue this game if there's at least one, but definitely if there's two, high-energy scum.

I’m thinking Koishi is town plus the list from the top of the page, which I am now repurposing for my own needs.

I also want to townread this even though it's probably really easy to post as scum, because it's so easy scum probably won't do it. Or something...

I think this is a fallacy of some sort.

Town:
Yuuka - Playing way too aggressive for scum, actively antagonizing others makes it very easy for others to want to murderlate you
Kagerou - 2chaotic2bescum

I think this is a fallacy of some sort. In general I think regularly flushing your brain of the idea that scum only play as conniving tricksters or whatever is good for you because scum playstyles can vary comically and they will especially love it if you hand them a townread for it. Rest of the readlist is like, fine, ig.

2) what makes a tenshi vote more interesting than a vote for me? maybe this is the self-loathing from generations of fairy hatred kicking in but i see myself as more likely to get exterminated than tenshi at this point in the game, so i don't understand why you'd vote tenshi ahead of me while thinking i'm more likely to be mafia

2) I'm more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than you, i feel like the general avoidance around this slot could come from a place of more well inserted scumbuddies uneasy with the idea of drawing the light to their weak like

2) assuming your interest in seeing people's stances on tenshi is honest, what effort did you make to draw those stances out between the tenshi vote and the post i am responding to with this question? (this actually ties pretty neatly into what yuuka and piece have been saying about you lately)

still waiting for an answer to this btw ?_?

(ed. note: nested quotes are cleaned up for ease-of-reading purposes)

sorry missed it

- well, i maybe didn't get as much as i hoped directly at the, but i also feel like i've managed to prevent tenshi from just being able to fly under the radar undetected, and it's just that people don't really care about pushing there

actually hmmm

one thing i find weird is how Marisa didn't include Tenshi in her vote pool

VOTE: Tenshi

yeah ik it's dumb counting the vote as that by itself, but it's true

I've lost the plot completely here too.

Just gonna step away and come back with fresh brain.

before you leave give me gun to head a read on Tenshi

save a townie, join the Tenshi wagon

So, a couple of things with this:

1) Posts 717 and 745 come after the time frame I was asking about. I was specifically asking about the time frame between the vote for Tenshi, in 553, and the claim that the vote for Tenshi was cast because you "were more interested in seeing people's stances on Tenshi than [me]", in 655. Presumably, if you were town and telling the truth about this, you would have made efforts to draw out people's stances between 553 and 665. I looked back and did not see any. Given you didn't quote any, I'm assuming you didn't see any either. Therefore, I have to conclude that the reason you gave for the vote is bunk, and because town has no reason to give bunk reasons for their votes, you are Mafia.

2) Posts 717 and 745 don't really give any reason to consider Tenshi voteworthy. In fact, Sanae's question in 719 is the only real response one can to 717, because you hadn't given any reason for anyone else to consider voting for Tenshi up to that point. Your response in 723 exists, sure, but even setting aside that the reasoning there appears to amount to "vibes", there was no reason town you couldn't have provided that reasoning 150 posts prior. This instead comes across as making something up after the fact, which suggests Mafia.

holy shit shes cooking. Big huge agree here.

Please forgive my breaking of character, I'm tired.

VOTE: Daiyousei

The entire line of questioning in 889 is really bad. Why does Daiyousei care about the fact that my scumread of Kaguya can be applied to other people? I'm explicitly fine with voting the other people. Why does Daiyousei care that I said I don't understand how anyone could have a townread on Kaguya? Even if only Kagerou was townreading Kaguya, nobody else was voting her. I didn't understand why nobody was interested in a Kaguya vote and said so. None of this is actually relevant to my alignment in any way and none of this even gives a reason not to vote Kaguya. It just feels like a discredit attempt, or at best an attempt to look like Daiyousei is questioning and investigative (and therefore towny).

Why does Daiyousei care about the fact that my scumread of Kaguya can be applied to other people?

- Because the line I asked about

didn't

apply to Kaguya. Here, I'll ask directly - how does "Anything that looks town indicative can be faked with a bit of practice" apply to someone about whom you just said ""none of her posts are town indicative"? If you can answer that question to my satisfaction then I'll feel better about you using it as justification for the Kaguya vote.

Why does Daiyousei care that I said I don't understand how anyone could have a townread on Kaguya? Even if only Kagerou was townreading Kaguya, nobody else was voting her. I didn't understand why nobody was interested in a Kaguya vote and said so.

- "I don't understand how anyone can have a strong townread on her!" is

not

the same thing as "I don't understand why nobody is interested in a Kaguya vote". Do not try to equate these two things. If you can give me evidence that a non-trivial collection of people that actually had a strong townread of Kaguya at the time, then I'll gladly (and sheepishly) withdraw the point. But don't give me evidence that a non-trivial collection of people weren't interested in a Kaguya vote and try to present that as them having strong townreads on Kaguya. Speaking for myself, there are a handful of people I presently am not interested in voting but also do not have strong townreads on, and I imagine the same is true of most of the rest of the game.

How this is all relevant to your alignment is related to the "town has no reason to give bunk reasons for their votes" thing I covered above. I was skeptical of your vote, and your response to my questioning about it made me more skeptical, ergo I lean toward you being Mafia.

I also mentioned that her cases on both Aya and Kagerou were fake, and I stand by that.

Aya breaking character happened after Daiyousei's bad case on Aya and therefore has no relevance to whether or not the case was good.

I already covered this in 891, but I suppose I can expand on the Aya stuff specifically.

My comments on Aya were made in 392. Aya had made nine posts up to that point. Here's the first so that anyone that wants to follow along can click the ISO link. In those nine posts, there is a partial role claim in 229 and a general Mafia behavior opinion in 255. Beyond that, I do not see any game state opinions in any of those posts - who she thinks is town, who she thinks is Mafia, reasons for those beliefs, etc. Given this, I do not think it is particularly unfair to have categorized her play up to that point as "do-nothing" or "pretending to contribute". If there are game state opinions in those posts that I have missed, please do point them out for me! Otherwise I will stand by what I said in 392 and find it very suspect that you continue to disagree.

Also, as long as I'm talking about this, given you very recently settled on Yuuka being town, what do you think of her vote for and commentary on Aya from that same general time frame compared to my commentary?

i take back what i said about not being invested in a daiyousei townread this little big fairy can BALL

Leaving things at like page 49 because I need to take a walk, but I think this is pretty much everything I'd wanna say anyway. VOTE: Kagerou

I don't hate this wall?

I have read Ichirin's Divine Fist "GIANT FUCKING WALL" twice now, and I think that the most town indicative part of it is the fact that she put it in spoiler tags.

However, I am underwhelmed by the actual content.

I think it's mostly cause it's in wall format instead of hyperposted

Side note: Turns out I hate multiple walls per page more than I hate hyperposting good to know

[Daiyousei]

i know i just voted Koishi but i do not understand why everyone and their mother took issue with their characterization of Yuuka as "middle-of-the-road"?

what is so horrible about them drawing that conclusion?

I think that peoples issue was that if you read their point by point commentary, it seems like they say a lot more things that point to town, and then people are taking "middle of the pack at best" as a scum read, and people are struggling to reconcile the final conclusion to the supporting evidence.

But I dont think koishi was actually meaning a scum read when they wrote it, so :shrug:

For the record, I knew it was a null read, but the sides of the scale feel weird.

This.

There is a very clear and correct answer here that giving in detail is actively detrimental, but is exactly why I am not worried about this wagon going anywhere in the slightest. And even typing this out is dangerous but fuck it, we ball.

Without going into more detail than you have to, can you clarify who "this wagon" referenced in this post is for?

[Clownpiece]

It was "Why are you voting Tenshi instead of me, who is lower on your list?"

Dai, I understood all of the nuance in your stance that you are stating here, and it was all included in my "I disagree with your foundataion" post.

Your pov has a foundation on the idea that a townie will always vote their largest scum read without great reason to do otherwise. I disagree with that foundation.

To clarify, I feel like the basis of your case is that they did not do enough follow up questioning to "justify" moving their votes [to someone that is higher up their reads list then their current vote]

When I think "huh, no one is talking about tenshi, and I dont like that" is enough justification to move your vote [to someone that is higher up their reads list then their current vote] at that stage in the game, even with zero follow up.

[Daiyousei]

Your pov has a foundation on the idea that a townie will always vote their largest scum read without great reason to do otherwise.

(It doesn't even matter than the implication of the answer is "Nothing changed, I still see you as more likely to be Mafia.")

[Daiyousei]

To be less glib, I accept that there are possible reasons why one would not be voting their greatest Mafia read. The reason Kagerou gave is one of them! It just so happens that, in this case, the reason Kagerou gave is observably bunk. If Kagerou had given the same exact reason,

but had also put in effort prior to stating it that demonstrated it was true

, we would not be having this conversation.

[Kaguya Houraisan]

btw if any questions I asked got answered later feel free to ignore them

Spoiler: Page 53

To actually get back on productive things: I do not particularly think my reads of Daiyousei or Kagerou are forced, because I'm pretty sure Dai was just speaking divine truth about Kagerou. And I'm a monk, trust me on this one.

That's worded weirdly

Spoiler: Page 54

VOTE: Ichirin

i'm cool with 1v1ing

What made you move off of Dai?

Spoiler: Page 55

Powersaving mode Kaguya is not in the right headspace to get anything out of this 1v1 and still make it to the end of the catchup

[Clownpiece]

You don't see the problem with not being able to kill half your scumreads cause people are POEing by activity?

If the stance was "I scum read this person, and therefore want to kill them despite being a hyper poster" then more power to you, we would not be having this conversation. People who vorted Koishi (the number 1 poster) and people who voted kagerou (the number 2 poster) because they said they thought they were scum did not get the same response from me that you did.

But the vote that I questioned was not one that was a specific scum read on a hyper poster, it was a desire to vote an "archetype" based on game state.

[Clownpiece]

Your pov has a foundation on the idea that a townie will always vote their largest scum read without great reason to do otherwise.

(It doesn't even matter than the implication of the answer is "Nothing changed, I still see you as more likely to be Mafia.")

You say that, but then building castles on that same sand foundation.

To be less glib, I accept that there are possible reasons why one would not be voting their greatest Mafia read. The reason Kagerou gave is one of them! It just so happens that, in this case, the reason Kagerou gave is observably bunk. If Kagerou had given the same exact reason,

but had also put in effort prior to stating it that demonstrated it was true

, we would not be having this conversation.

I'm just gonna leave this here:

Like sure, this could be scum who was just faking interest in Tenshi reads, but it could also just as easily be town who was interested in tenshi reads, but then the thread went other directions and their focus went with it, so they ended up talking about other topics after moving their votes.

But either way, I simply don't see it as a smoking gun scum case the way you do.

I don't think that further back and forth is going to help us.

The issue is NOT that I don't understand your argument, the issue is that I don't agree with it. So further explanations from you are not going to help me at least.

[Clownpiece]

I do think that our back and forth made me feel better about your alignment, so it was not all for naught!

[Kaguya Houraisan]

Spoiler: Page 56

Liking Sanae here

Okay, so that was a realistic position for you two hours ago, but why are you not making a point of going back to read? You've made posts since so you HAVE been here?

Continuing the trend of assuming everyone has infinite time to play Mafia I see

Spoiler: Page 57

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Spoiler: Page 58

Okay I definitely concur the Yuuka "middle-of-the-pack" read is weird because a lot of the ungrokables and dislikes are just Yuuka eccentricities (and not ones I think are relevant, mind, like I talked about in my wall)? The typos are annoying, I wish I knew what "2076" was supposed to be, but moreover it just feels like the equation is Towntell+Towntell+Towntell+Towntell+Scumtell=? and you fucked up your math and landed on Nulltown. I just don't agree overall.

I don't hate this post either?

Spoiler: Page 59

Gals I think Sanae is town

Clownpiece I'll get back to you once I finish my catchup and reboot, wanna not get stuck in a feedback loop of being perpetually behind

[Daiyousei]

Then I suppose I should directly question this:

it could also just as easily be town who was interested in tenshi reads, but then the thread went other directions and their focus went with it, so they ended up talking about other topics after moving their votes

Given how

incredibly

easy it would be for a townie that genuinely wanted to see Tenshi reactions to try to obtain them (which was the point of the bulleted list in 1496, which I imagine you already figured but I'm explicitly stating it anyway), I cannot fathom the idea that the situation was one where "it could just as easily have been town who didn't". Like, this is p-value-

way

-less-than-0.05 stuff as far as I'm concerned.

[Kagerou Imaizumi]

Well you see according to Daiyousei town can only do one thing at the time and i should've ran my head into the wall multiple times to try to squeeze pressure out of it or something

Obviously this was not a case of "you must ask about it at every opportunity". Asking about it once or twice would have been sufficient. This commentary of yours is clearly intentionally disingenuous.

Well sorry but i really can't get my head into what your case is about and i think i'll just stop trying to