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[Snow2697]

VOTE: Dave

[Snow2697]

Dave claims that he did not read page 2 before he put me on E-1.
If true, he jumped on a train without understanding implications and potential lime. Hardly townish.
If not true, he is scum.
Dave is at least sus for me.

[Snow2697]

Dave sus bc whiteknight.

What from me did you perceive as defending someone else?

This is true. Yet you voted me, how come?

To generate information.

What have you learned?

How is it that Titus pushed Dave for being whiteknight, and then did not respond to a direct legit question, but pushed Dave on a different issue?
VOTE: Titus

[Snow2697]

Titus's vote isn't much more than a RVS, in fact it might be exactly that. I'd call that NAI.

In what universe is this not a defense?

It is. Don't think that this per se makes Dave sus, but I understand your point now. And I see Dave sus on other grounds. So,

VOTE: Dave

[Snow2697]

I actually liked Little Will's posts.
May be save for his lack of detailed comments on Naerys, but I can see at least why he is going that way.

[Snow2697]

I still think we should go dave

I could do dave too

Ι don't think that you have accused Dave of anything wrong. Why do you think that Dave's lime is good option?

[Snow2697]

I am focusing on people voting on me bcz their reason either doesnt exist or its a bs

Well...
We have 15 players. I know that I am town. 14 players left. Probably at least 4 scums. So, let's say 10 towns-4 scums.
My speedwagon consisted of 7 people. You said that there is at least 1 scum there. This leaves us with 2-3 scums between 7 players outside the wagon.
3 people criticized my wagon. Wisp said that at least 1 scum is among them (Kay-you-Oblivion).
If you take issue with this point by Wisp and you do not think that there is 1 scum between Kay-you-Oblivion, then ... how you can be sure about this? Also, this leaves you with 2-3 scums between 4 people who were not on the wagon and did not criticize it. You should look for scums there.
If you accept that there is some merit in the point by Wisp, and you are town, then you should look at Kay and Oblivion (1 scum between 2 players).

Otherwise, you have to say that (1) there are at least 3 scums within my wagon + me (since I am town, I would take it like there are at least 3 scums on the wagon, not sure this is realistic), (2) there are no scums between you-Kay-Oblivion (how can you be confident in this if you are town?) and (3) it makes more sense to look for 3 scums between 7+1 players than for 1 scum between 4 players.

So, I do see a reason for people voting you, and your position and your focus on them is not very convincing, at least for me.

[Snow2697]

No-no, "blah" is not enough.
Based on my speedwagon and critique or lack of critique thereof, we have 4 categories of players: (1) me, (2) 7 players on my wagon, (3) 3 players who criticized my wagon, (4) 4 players left.
You are in category 3. 3 players who voted you are all in category 2.
Please explain why you think that category 3 is scum-free (seems like you disagree with Wisp) and how in your view scums are distributed between 1-2-4. (Your position should explain why you focus on 3 players in category 2.)

[Snow2697]

If you don't respond to legit questions, why do you complain of people voting you?
Still dislike Dave, but Naerys is worse.

VOTE: Naerys

[Snow2697]

Questions from Gypyx and geraintm make sense.
I do not rule out possibility that Wisp is scum who tries to compromise three town players (Kay - Oblivion - Naerys).
But what worries me most of all here is that Naerys is refusing to respond to questions about her thinking and its reasons.

[Snow2697]

Sorry, I was very busy irl and cannot catch up now. Will keep my vote where it is for now. There has been a point (I think from RN) about Naerys playstyle, but I consider my questions to be legit and Naerys should have answered them. My other candidate has been Dave, but Naerys is worse IMO.

[Snow2697]

I don't understand why people are really voting NAS. If the purpose is to get information and then take the game from there, this is not the most helpful lime for me. And largely irrelevant.
My pick is Naerys, but it is largely based on her playstyle. And I see comments that she can be town.
I would rather lim one of Gypyx-Thomith-Titus-geraintm-Little Will o' Wisp-PenguinPower-Dave who were on a speedwagon vs me. I think there are at least 2 scums there. My preference here would be:

VOTE: Davesaz

[Snow2697]

Wisp can be another option for his early VT claim, I can agree on him.
But I don't want a speedwagon on any person who were on my speedwagon (including Dave and Wisp), and will consider hammers as locked scums.
If anyone wants Dave or Wisp, I would rather that you write first and don't put them at E-1 or hammer.

[Snow2697]

(there's also the way she reacted towards Snow's flashwagon, a position I still hold since no one has tried to argue against it yet)

You were voting me (speedwagon), then Naerys and Dave. Dave put me on E-1 with an explanation subject to fair criticism.
Do you think that Naerys is his fellow scum crying "flash wagon is bad"?

[Snow2697]

No-no, "blah" is not enough.
Based on my speedwagon and critique or lack of critique thereof, we have 4 categories of players: (1) me, (2) 7 players on my wagon, (3) 3 players who criticized my wagon, (4) 4 players left.
You are in category 3. 3 players who voted you are all in category 2.
Please explain why you think that category 3 is scum-free (seems like you disagree with Wisp) and how in your view scums are distributed between 1-2-4. (Your position should explain why you focus on 3 players in category 2.)

I don't understand why people are really voting NAS. If the purpose is to get information and then take the game from there, this is not the most helpful lime for me. And largely irrelevant.
My pick is Naerys, but it is largely based on her playstyle. And I see comments that she can be town.
I would rather lim one of Gypyx-Thomith-Titus-geraintm-Little Will o' Wisp-PenguinPower-Dave who were on a speedwagon vs me. I think there are at least 2 scums there. My preference here would be:

VOTE: Davesaz

This hood has been the reason for my position above. So far both players who left are from category 4. I rather thought that the focus should be on players in category 2 (all are in the hood) and category 3 (there has been a conflict created by Will's comment on Naerys).

An opinion has been expressed in the hood that 2 scums in the hood is not impossible (e.g. if we have 2 anti-town parties), and I was wary that if one town is limmed and 2 towns are killed at night, then the hood could be hidden from the town forever.

[Snow2697]

Hood
Thomith – active, says right things, but with his activity does not scumread people and has not focused on people in the hood (except early train on me). Is he really hunting scums? Has strong TR on Gypyx.
Gypyx – strong TR on Thomith. SR on Will, said that he could lim Dave. Did not vote into the hood until recently (and except early train on me).
Titus – inactive, but voted Dave-Naerys, so position close to mine.
Davesaz – inactive. Suspicious.

Outside hood
Will – initiated a conflict with Naerys, early VT claim.
Naerys – did not respond to questions.

I would focus on Thomith-Gypyx-Dave. May be Will/Naerys. Dave is sus, but I don’t like Thomith and Gypyx townreading each other and being together in trains on me, NAS and Dave.

[Snow2697]

It's noteworthy btw that if I remember things right RN defended Naerys at least twice, but she is voting him. Is this a real or an artificial conflict?

[Snow2697]

Hood
Thomith – active, says right things, but with his activity does not scumread people and has not focused on people in the hood (except early train on me). Is he really hunting scums? Has strong TR on Gypyx.
Gypyx – strong TR on Thomith. SR on Will, said that he could lim Dave. Did not vote into the hood until recently (and except early train on me).
Titus – inactive, but voted Dave-Naerys, so position close to mine.
Davesaz – inactive. Suspicious.

Outside hood
Will – initiated a conflict with Naerys, early VT claim.
Naerys – did not respond to questions.

I would focus on Thomith-Gypyx-Dave. May be Will/Naerys. Dave is sus, but I don’t like Thomith and Gypyx townreading each other and being together in trains on me, NAS and Dave.

I'm literally voting dave.

That's just today. Where people's attention is on the hood anyway and Dave is an easy target.

[Snow2697]

I literally brought up the Neighbourhood, then have begun taking steps to solve within the hood today, so to say I'm not focusing on the hood is incorrect.

This is honestly reading like you are concerned that a town core is forming within the hood, and one half of that is suspecting you, so you are trying to break it up.

With two VT going away outside the hood there was no choice but to bring the hood up today.
You ignored the hood before today, again had no choice but look at it.
I don't see how a town-town core can be formed within the hood if noone looks at it. Scum-scum or scum-townie core is much easier.

[Snow2697]

It's noteworthy btw that if I remember things right RN defended Naerys at least twice, but she is voting him. Is this a real or an artificial conflict?

I didn't defend her I pointed out my experiences with her in a past game when we were both Town.

You can have your own view and call it "just a comment", I don't mind. But this comment was convincing enough for me to switch to Dave again, so I treat it as "defence".

[Snow2697]

I literally brought up the Neighbourhood, then have begun taking steps to solve within the hood today, so to say I'm not focusing on the hood is incorrect.

This is honestly reading like you are concerned that a town core is forming within the hood, and one half of that is suspecting you, so you are trying to break it up.

With two VT going away outside the hood there was no choice but to bring the hood up today.
You ignored the hood before today, again had no choice but look at it.
I don't see how a town-town core can be formed within the hood if noone looks at it. Scum-scum or scum-townie core is much easier.

I

wanted

to bring up the hood yesterday, knowing it likely meant we would sort within the hood yesterday?
When it was decided to keep the hood hidden yesterday to see if someone TMI'd it, why would it make sense to push someone in the hood, forcing the hood to be revealed, when it was discussed that the hood should be left to Day 2, to try and either catch a TMI, or verify a PT Cop - both of these being Titus' suggestions.

You can seek to put it this way, but it does not address my concerns.

Question for the town. Do we think that people were hunting scums on D1 or rather hunting PRs? Jackson suggested the latter and got killed at night.

[Snow2697]

If you don't want to respond yourself, so be it. But please let others respond as they wish.

[Snow2697]

Let's give us something to talk about.

There is a neighbourhood in this game that consists of:
Myself (Thomith)
Gypyx
Snow
Titus
Dave

Even bigger reason to vote Dave.

i dont see any reason to vote dave

You've said "flashwagon is bad" and Dave put me on E-1. Is it not a reason?
Other than Dave, whom would you scumread from my wagon/the hood?

[Snow2697]

Let's give us something to talk about.

There is a neighbourhood in this game that consists of:
Myself (Thomith)
Gypyx
Snow
Titus
Dave

Even bigger reason to vote Dave.

i dont see any reason to vote dave

You've said "flashwagon is bad" and Dave put me on E-1. Is it not a reason?
Other than Dave, whom would you scumread from my wagon/the hood?

[Snow2697]

Gypyx has been so obviously been trying to solve the game here and in the hood, that I doubt I'm wrong on this, but I see your point.

I don't see how Gypyx has been so obviously trying to solve the game.
If she thought that the hood had 2 scums and she was town with you, this left 2 scums between me-Titus-Dave. And around 2 scums elsewhere.
Then she should have focused on the hood and hunted for scums there. NAS lime and a hammer there makes zero sense in this set up.

[Snow2697]

Gypyx has been so obviously been trying to solve the game here and in the hood, that I doubt I'm wrong on this, but I see your point.

I don't see how Gypyx has been so obviously trying to solve the game.
If she thought that the hood had 2 scums and she was town with you, this left 2 scums between me-Titus-Dave. And around 2 scums elsewhere.
Then she should have focused on the hood and hunted for scums there. NAS lime and a hammer there makes zero sense in this set up.

the thought of the hood having 3 scum came at me around the start of day 2

Gypyx has been so obviously been trying to solve the game here and in the hood, that I doubt I'm wrong on this, but I see your point.

I don't see how Gypyx has been so obviously trying to solve the game.
If she thought that the hood had 2 scums and she was town with you, this left 2 scums between me-Titus-Dave. And around 2 scums elsewhere.
Then she should have focused on the hood and hunted for scums there. NAS lime and a hammer there makes zero sense in this set up.

We were at EoD, no other execution likely happens that day, unless there's utter chaos at deadline, and deadline executions are rarely good ones.

These posts from Gypyx and Thomith seek to speak away my point.
Gypyx thought about 2 scums in the hood 10 days ago. She strongly townread Thomith even earlier.
What did she do during these days until NAS mislim to "actively try to solve the game" and hunt 2 scums out of me-Titus-Dave?
So, my point is reinforced. And seems like Thomith and Gypyx were not trying to hunt scums.

[Snow2697]

Day 1, Titus and snow were voting Dave-slot at certain points (moreso than Thom/Gypyx) and today they aren’t. I’m wondering if they changed their mind or if they’re also just waiting.

I don't like Dave, but I also don't like self-proclaimed Thomith-Gypyx townblock.

[Snow2697]

Ranger, I think Snow is very likely scum. Can't follow that. Nor do I follow your gypyx/Thom reada

If the hood has scum(s) (seems to be consensus here), they are unlikely to target towns from the hood. Otherwise they will decrease potential lim targets from the hood and draw attention to the scums there.
So, if you indeed scumread someone from the hood, it is strange (and scummy IMO) to vote for outside the hood.

[Snow2697]

I felt somewhat better about Ranger, but I did not like and understand her vote into Naerys.
Titus is added to my suspects list for her vote into Naerys, while she thinks that I am scum. I don't think that Naerys and myself can be fellow scums.
So, everyone from the hood are my suspects now. I currently think that the worst is
VOTE: Thomith

[Snow2697]

I felt somewhat better about Ranger, but I did not like and understand her vote into Naerys.
Titus is added to my suspects list for her vote into Naerys, while she thinks that I am scum. I don't think that Naerys and myself can be fellow scums.
So, everyone from the hood are my suspects now. I currently think that the worst is
VOTE: Thomith

Why am I the worst?

Please explain why not. If you are active, but do not look for scums? If you TR Gypyx and say that she actively solves the game (she does not)? if you and Gypyx are in virtually all wagons? If you do not explain why Jackson (killed BTW) is wrong when he said there is PR hunt here (to say "there isn't" is not enough)?

Gypyx is no. 2.

Titus and Ranger - what puzzles me is that they suspected people in the hood, but voted outside. So they are close.

[Snow2697]

I am ready to vote into the hood today.
The most suspicious are Thomith-Gypyx followed by Titus-Ranger.
I set out my case on Thomith-Gypyx. IMO they have not properly responded. Thomith keeps saying that Gypyx was trying to solve the game, but she was not.
I don't like Ranger and his gradual move of Thomith-Gypyx from the scum side to town side of the spectrum.
I very much disliked Titus for her saying that I am scum, but voting outside the hood into Naerys.

[Snow2697]

I am ready to vote into the hood today.
The most suspicious are Thomith-Gypyx followed by Titus-Ranger.
I set out my case on Thomith-Gypyx. IMO they have not properly responded. Thomith keeps saying that Gypyx was trying to solve the game, but she was not.
I don't like Ranger and his gradual move of Thomith-Gypyx from the scum side to town side of the spectrum.
I very much disliked Titus for her saying that I am scum, but voting outside the hood into Naerys.

I havent seen you give me anything to respond to.

Makes sense, when you tried to respond, you had better just not do it.
So, you keep making your "nothing to respond" point, and I keep seeing you as the most sus and voting you.

[Snow2697]

Hello i'm john town cop, i kinda don't wanna get nightkilled

let's not look threatening to scum

No no no, I have questions.

You implied Scum shot JV because they were PR hunting. Why would Scum do that? Wouldn't they want a Townie to be Scumhunting? And then you mentioned something about JV trying not to be noticed, while PR hunting...?

I need you to clarify, please.

the scum were PR hunting by killing jackson

I think that Jackson accused scums of PR hunting, since they started wagons against people.
And Jackson was killed for that.

[Snow2697]

Yet another push on me. Makes no sense from town!players standpoint.
On D1 I identified 4 categories of players:
1 - me
2 - Gypyx-Thomith-Titus-geraintm-Little Will o' Wisp/Lycanfire-PenguinPower-Dave/Ranger who were on my speedwagon on D1
3 - Naerys-Kay-Oblivion who criticized the speedwagon on me
4 - NAS - RN - Jackson - Hu Tao - remaining players.
Further on D1 I tried to focus on players in categories 2 and 3. I was against the lime of NAS (category 4). I voted Dave on D1 and wanted his lime. People disagreed and limmed town!NAS. This is not my fault.
On D2 I was ready to focus on the hood and category 2. I treated Dave/Ranger sus, but voted Thomith because for me he was worse than Dave/Ranger. It is not my fault that Thomith played that way.
Noteworthy that all scum kills were in category 4.
I want to reconsider things. But I want Gypyx to explain clearly why I am scum in her opinion. If she does not do this, I will play against her.

[Snow2697]

I’m sorry I didn’t listen to you literally Day 1, Hu. I should’ve just trusted you but then this neighborhood stuff got in my head. And Ranger kinda scared me with how aggressive she was when I was trying to be gracious while she caught up.

So are we continuing on with looking inside the hood? I’m scared of tunneling there and not looking at all options. I still stand behind my Penguin vote but I think I need to take a backseat for the first few days of D2 to reevaluate other players.

I’d like the opinions of the other 4 hood players on if they feel we definitely have another scum in hood. (I think I know where Thom and Gypyx stand)

I specifically do not like how Snow has been refusing to elaborate on why he believes I was PR hunting Day 1, and every time I ask him about it, he states that I'm posting nonsense and refusing to interact further. He is not giving me any way to allow me to explain or defend myself.

He also made a post in the hood just before the Night ended, stating it Gypyx did not explain her scumread on her then he would 1v1 her today, (while I am biased) this seemed to setup his push on Gypyx today, to almost give a reason for his actions before he did them.

I personally don't see the possible town motivation behind either action.

We don't necessarily have to hard focus on the hood today like I wanted us to yesterday, but I'm voting here for now as Snow is my current biggest scumread.

You are misstating our hood communications in open thread. Please stop doing this.

Re PR hunting. For the record, my position is that you were active on D1, but you were not hunting scums. Jackson made a "PR hunt" comment and got killed. Your bare statement that you were not PR hunting is not sufficient. So, I am still waiting for your explanations on how you were scumhunting - and not PR hunting - on D1. So far there are none.

[Snow2697]

I think that I need to take this position pending other stuff:
So,
VOTE: Thomith

[Snow2697]

Yet another push on me. Makes no sense from town!players standpoint.
On D1 I identified 4 categories of players:
1 - me
2 - Gypyx-Thomith-Titus-geraintm-Little Will o' Wisp/Lycanfire-PenguinPower-Dave/Ranger who were on my speedwagon on D1
3 - Naerys-Kay-Oblivion who criticized the speedwagon on me
4 - NAS - RN - Jackson - Hu Tao - remaining players.



Noteworthy that all scum kills were in category 4.

What do you think this could mean?

That most of the scums are not in category 4?

[Snow2697]

I have a feeling this neighbor v neighbor v neighbor is going to cripple us going forward. Because if we lim one today that flips town, there’s no stopping a tunnel on yet another one the next day. I think you guys might be right that the hood could have 2 scum but I worry we will get hung up on that and scum will use it as a distraction every day. I’m mostly apprehensive because currently I lean toward the Thom/Gypyx side being town (Thom mostly, Gypyx after) but what if we flip snow and even Titus and both are town? We’re so screwed because we’ll all be too paranoid NOT to flip the remaining hood. Obviously if snow flips red, yay for us but I’m just thinking of worst case scenarios here.

I’ll continue withholding my vote for now (sorry penguin I know you hate that) but I genuinely worry about what we do today and how it might shape the rest of the game. I welcome other opinions and insight on this, especially from anyone with experience playing games with neighborhoods. I might be getting too paranoid but I’d rather stay a bit apprehensive than be complacent.

This makes sense. We need to understand when we stop voting into the hood.
If not the hood, an option can be to look at Naerys-geraintm (both did not vote scum!Dave, but voted town!NAS) and also at Wisp-Naerys conflict dating back to D1 (Wisp looks more town due to his vote into Ranger on D2).
Penguin voted scum!Ranger, so some details on why he is scum might be helpful.

[Snow2697]

Yet another push on me. Makes no sense from town!players standpoint.

Initially I liked that you picked up on the interaction with Jackson, but whether Thomith was scheming or not I don't read his post as actively doing so. It was very LAMIST (look at me, i'm so town for the new people).

Is this the glue holding your read together for Thomith?

Jackson's post? Yeah, probably. I wrote that Thomith was active, said right things, but he mostly townread players and did not look like he was scumhunting. What was he doing? Jackson made a proposal. I don't think that it was rebutted by Thomith.
And on D2 Thomith was townreading Gypyx, calling her as "actively trying to solve the game", which again I did not see.

[Snow2697]

VOTE: snow

still want this gone

Naerys is town and for those of you pushing scum you kinda need to recalibrate your scum compass

if snow flips town i swear i'll leave the hood stuff alone for a bit and try to explore more options

Soooo..... I read Gypyx as follows.

"I am town!Gypyx (don't ask me why and take it as given) and I am very confident that Snow is scum. I won't explain why, don't even ask this, but again you should take it as given. And you should also take it as given that Thomith is town. Snow should be executed (because I say that he is scum), but if he somehow flips town, then I will leave the hood and give you another execution option (which you should follow)."

This is nonsense.
When I flip town (I know that I am town, so it's "when", and the way Gypyx puts it suggests that she also knows this), why should people follow her? May be they should do quite the opposite, i.e. review the hood again and put some scrutiny at Gypyx and her self-proclaimed towncore with Thomith? At once.
BTW, one scum is off board, so I am fine to be executed today with a condition that one of Thomith-Gypyx is executed tomorrow.
Thomith/Gypyx - does this sound like a fair deal for you?

[Snow2697]

I am not that experienced in the game to decide whether mass claim now will be helpful. Will listen to the others on this.
Thomith-Gypyx self-proclaimed towncore is now trying to "lead" the town. And decide on who is to be limmed. Fantastic.
I have to repeat my proposal to Thomith-Gypyx which is unanswered. Lim me today, but when I flip town, one of you gets kicked next day. OK? If not, stop crying "Snow is scum".

[Snow2697]

Haters hate to see a woman girlbossing her way to winning a game of mafia

Gypyx - are you going to respond on the merits of my posts?

[Snow2697]

Haters hate to see a woman girlbossing her way to winning a game of mafia

Gypyx - are you going to respond on the merits of my posts?

You mean the one where you hate on the fact that i'm girlbossing?

I have never said what you are tring to infer, please stop this line.

[Snow2697]

1.16

Votecount 1.16

NotAScum (5): KayJayQueue, Thomith, Titus, PenguinPower, Naerys
Little Will o' Wisp (3): Gypyx, davesaz, NotAScum
Naerys (2): Little Will o' Wisp, Snow2697
Hu Tao (1): geraintm
davesaz (1): Hu Tao
PenguinPower (1): JacksonVirgo
Thomith (1): Random Nurse

Not Voting (1): Oblivion

With 15 players alive, it takes 8 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-03-25 12:26:37).

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here.

VC at the time of snow's last dave vote

this screams scum TMI'ing and wanting to do some distancing

At least there is something on substance from you against me. But we need to put a needle to this balloon and examine things more closely.

[Snow2697]

1.16

Votecount 1.16

NotAScum (5): KayJayQueue, Thomith, Titus, PenguinPower, Naerys
Little Will o' Wisp (3): Gypyx, davesaz, NotAScum
Naerys (2): Little Will o' Wisp, Snow2697
Hu Tao (1): geraintm
davesaz (1): Hu Tao
PenguinPower (1): JacksonVirgo
Thomith (1): Random Nurse

Not Voting (1): Oblivion

With 15 players alive, it takes 8 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-03-25 12:26:37).

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here.

This is the position before my vote into Dave. But my vote was not "distancing". The focus has been on Dave, then shifted to NAS. NAS' lime was irrelevant for me, and I tried to return the focus to Dave.

I don't understand why people are really voting NAS. If the purpose is to get information and then take the game from there, this is not the most helpful lime for me. And largely irrelevant.
My pick is Naerys, but it is largely based on her playstyle. And I see comments that she can be town.
I would rather lim one of Gypyx-Thomith-Titus-geraintm-Little Will o' Wisp-PenguinPower-Dave who were on a speedwagon vs me. I think there are at least 2 scums there. My preference here would be:

VOTE: Davesaz

So came my 2nd vote into Dave.

I’m a lil shocked nobody is coming after my ass considering how little I’ve posted compared to usual

I’ll come after your ass

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

Why do you refuse to vote dave?

Is that still a thing? I don’t remember the VC, I thought the vote moved to NAS sorry.

If it matters, my vote on Jack is very unserious.

Are we flipping Dave today? How many votes do we need on him to demand a claim? (I’m being serious with that question, is E-1 the usual “claim or die” slot?)

Kay seemed to be in doubt and could have voted Dave.

Not too late for dave

Hu Tao trying to lim Dave.

Maybe.

VOTE: Dave

Wisp voted Dave, 3rd vote.

10 hours covers my sleep time through end of first morning meeting. Since I won't have time later,
VOTE: NotAScum

Dave put NAS at E-1.

Davesaz seems to be voting just for the sake of having a D1 lim, no particular reason/suspicion was provided. No comment on my claim either, so I'm guessing there's no good reason behind the vote.

VOTE: Davesaz

NAS called Dave's vote without reason, just to have a lime. 4th vote into Dave.

VOTE: NotAScum

this probably flips town but we kinda have to

Gypyx hammer. Without many reasons (so much similar to Dave's vote) and with assumption that NAS is most likely town. Why not vote Dave and press his lime then?

1.FINAL

Votecount 1.FINAL

NotAScum (EXECUTED): Thomith, Titus, PenguinPower, Naerys, geraintm, Random Nurse, davesaz, Gypyx
davesaz (4): Hu Tao, Snow2697, Little Will o' Wisp, NotAScum
Little Will o' Wisp (1): KayJayQueue
PenguinPower (1): JacksonVirgo

Not Voting (1): Oblivion

With 15 players alive, it took 8 votes to secure an execution.

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here.

Gypyx could have put the 5th vote vs Dave. With uncertain Kay, unvoting Oblivion and Jackson's vote into Wisp you cannot say that it was impossible to put Dave at E-2 or even E-1 or even lim him. Thus, Gypyx can very well flip scum in this set up.

My current question re D1 voting is really how it came that NAS became under fire instead of Dave.

[Snow2697]

Hmmmm...
Gypyx: Snow is scum. His D1 Dave vote had no chance to trigger Dave's lime and was "distancing".
Snow: this is plainly wrong. I did try to lim Dave and prevent NAS' lime. But for Gypyx' hammer Dave's lime was not impossible. Also, Gypyx' hammer was very similar to Dave' vote into NAS (and Dave's vote put NAS at E-1).
Gypyx: I was busy...
There is smth that I dislike here. Especially if Gypyx keeps saying "Snow scum" and "I am the leader of the town".

[Snow2697]

Deadline point makes sense, but you cannot say "Snow was not trying to lim Dave" (incorrect) or "Snow could have done more" (may be, you can always do more) where you yourself did much less than me to ensure D1 lime of Dave.

[Snow2697]

i note your vote is on thomith and not gypyx?

So far yes.
But it's not set in stone.
Need to decide whether Gypyx is worse than Thomith and whether it is worth to pursue someone outside the hood.

[Snow2697]

OK. Let's do something towny.
VOTE: Gypyx

[Snow2697]

I am starting to think a Snow flip will provide a lot of information. They've been prodded and poked at by a ton of people.

On D1 I urged to lim Dave instead of NAS.
On D2 I was the target of a counterwagon to save Dave.
Do you need my mislim on D3 to get more information?

[Snow2697]

(as snow is saying this, please take note of how ranger did absolutely nothing to push onto snow)

she either didn't want snow to go or didn't care, and therefore was fine with dying, not caring is my first impression

Yet again this is just to distract the town. Ranger was on fire on D1 and D2. Why would (all) scums openly associate themselves with Ranger? A better course of action for them would have been to arrange for alternate counter-wagons and see which has prospects to succeed.

With this in mind, what do we see in VC2.16 (i.e. there will be just 1 more VC and than the final one)?

2.16

Votecount 2.16

Ranger (E-2): Random Nurse, Titus, Oblivion, PenguinPower, Lycanfire
Hu Tao (2): Ranger, Naerys
Snow2697 (2): Thomith, Gypyx
PenguinPower (2): KayJayQueue, Hu Tao
Thomith (1): Snow2697

Not Voting (1): geraintm

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-04-07 10:29:00).

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here.

Ranger at E-2.
Ranger-Naerys voting town!Hu Tao.
Self-proclaimed "towncore" of Thomith-Gypyx voting town!Snow.
A question can be put to Kay for voting PP (who put an important 4th vote into Ranger), although town!Hu Tao also did this.
Counterwagons failed and Thomith-Gypyx jumped on Ranger. This is the distancing.
Naerys-Thomith-Gypyx, maybe Kay are valid review targets for today.
I have to repeat myself. 1 scum is off the table. I am fine to be limmed today, but Thomith-Gypyx should follow me when I flip town. Very simple and fair. Gypyx is doing everything to speak away these points and to "lead" the town in the wrong direction.

[Snow2697]

So, on D2 you and Thomith declared a towncore block and called me scum, voted me, but ... now I was trying to start a counterwagon, and your vote was simply "parked" in me. Where I was saying that Dave was sus, but Thomith was simply worse.

D1 you were busy and hammered town!NAS (with Thomith) instead of pressing scum!Dave, as I requested.
D2 your vote was "just parked" on me (with Thomith again).
D3 you are the leader of the town dictating whom to lim (again with Thomith).
Your agenda for D4? My proposal is that you (with Thomith) get limmed after I flip town. What is yours?

[Snow2697]

Sounds like a deal.
VOTE: Snow

[Snow2697]

Snow if you're Town remove your vote.

Put it back on Gypyx.

Why so? I am town, but I am ready to go away today with Gypyx-Thomith to follow.

[Snow2697]

May be you are right. But I think that Gypyx-Thomith went too far in trying to lim me without reason, and I went to far fighting them back.

[Snow2697]

In your experience Snow, does this concept of "elim person A and if it doesn't work out, elim person B" thing ever happen?

In classic face-to-face mafia yes, this is a must or at least standard practice in some situations.

In online mafia have not seen it before. But here there is merit IMO. You cannot do weird things on D1 ("I was busy"), self-proclaim townblock on D2 with a counterwagon against a town ("my vote was just parked on you") and then claim town leadership, attack my town slot without reasons and without responsibility. "If we are wrong with Snow, we promise not to look into the hood". So, the town cannot look at you as scums? No, I will not allow you to have it this way.

[Snow2697]

May be you are right. But I think that Gypyx-Thomith went too far in trying to lim me without reason, and I went to far fighting them back.

Yes but why am i scum instead of a misguided townie

Because you do not play like a misguided townie.

E.g. I have set out my D3 suspects list, but my views were not set out in stone, since yeah, I don't know people's slots and can be mistaken. But what about misguided townie Gypyx? Why is Snow the most scummy? Why is Snow more scummy than Thomith, Naerys, Gypyx herself or any other slot? There were voices that Snow should not be limmed today for specific reasons, how did Gypyx take into account this view and the reasons? Why is Gypyx convinced that these people are wrong that early? There are also people who have not set out their views (or full views) yet, why did Gypyx not let them have a say before directing the lime?

So will a townie who appreciates that he/she can be misguided call people "locked towns"/"locked scums" without particular reasons, ignore position of the others, claim town leadership and direct execution of a slot which is (on any account) not the scummiest at the table? Especially where this townie understands that some of his/her D1/D2 moves were not ideal ("busy", "parking vote", "counterwagon against a scum"). Why would this townie claim leadership in the first place? Why would this townie expect the others to accept his/her leadership? Why would this townie expect the town to accept his/her leadership on D4 after a D3 mislim? Is it behaviour of a misguided honest townie or of a scum where things are getting hot for him/her and his/her partner?

So who are you Gypyx and are you not a scum? And who is Thomith, who was very active initially (while you were not), but then his activity reduced and yours expanded? And why are you not both scums acting together?

[Snow2697]

Once again snow with the taking stuff out of context to be able to create a scumread on me

people were afraid of chain-limming into the hood again and again and it being all town save for ranger, i was saying that we were in fact not doing that and now you're phrasing it as me wanting to be left alone in the event that you flip town

you're also blowing this "counterwagon" way out of proportion, yes i've went on you, but dave was my first vote and it was my last one, it's what matters in the end

I am not phrasing you, that's what you said. Lim Snow now and if he is town (he is), then let the hood (i.e. me and Thomith) alone. This means limming town!Snow without responsibility. You won't have it.

On the counterwagon, what matters is what you did throughout the day, not your first and last vote. And what you did was that you chose to "park" your vote on town!Snow (with Thomith) and push my slot for mislim.

[Snow2697]

"You have reasons to scumread Gypyx, but is there anything that towntells her?

Good question.

On D1 I somewhat liked Gypyx posts/questions initially.

I was confused by their townblock with Thomith. And I have set this out in my post below.

Hood
Thomith – active, says right things, but with his activity does not scumread people and has not focused on people in the hood (except early train on me). Is he really hunting scums? Has strong TR on Gypyx.
Gypyx – strong TR on Thomith. SR on Will, said that he could lim Dave. Did not vote into the hood until recently (and except early train on me).
Titus – inactive, but voted Dave-Naerys, so position close to mine.
Davesaz – inactive. Suspicious.

Outside hood
Will – initiated a conflict with Naerys, early VT claim.
Naerys – did not respond to questions.

I would focus on Thomith-Gypyx-Dave. May be Will/Naerys. Dave is sus, but I don’t like Thomith and Gypyx townreading each other and being together in trains on me, NAS and Dave.

Then things became hot between me and Thomith-Gypyx.

Gypyx scumread me-Titus-Dave and voted me with Thomith.

how about we just lim in the hood for now and when Titus / snow / Dave all flip scum i get the applause i deserve ok? Ok.

oh also another reason i think Snow / Titus / Ranger are scum together

postcounts in the hood :
Thomith : 43
Gypyx : 32
Snow : 14
Titus : 13
Davesaz : 9
Ranger : 7

So I felt that she might have been directing attention from scum!Dave to me and Titus (which makes Titus slot more towny). And note that now Gypyx is claiming that she has not pushed for my lime!

The only scenario for Gypyx to be town IMO is where her role/Thomith role allowed them to find themselves as towns, thus they treat each other as locked towns, and were mistaken on me. Vibes as early as D2 start after a mislim of NAS? I doubt this.
But then I don't think that town!Gypyx and town!Thomith would react to my 762 as they did.
I simply said there "I would focus on Thomith-Gypyx-Dave. May be Will/Naerys. Dave is sus, but I don’t like Thomith and Gypyx townreading each other and being together in trains on me, NAS and Dave."
Why would town!Gypyx and town!Thomith start pressing me? Instead finishing Dave? Why would they not appreciate that a town might (and probably should) be confused where two other players are calling each other locked towns so easily and so early?
So I think that a better interpretation is that Thomith-Gypyx-Dave were scums together and they decided that anti-Dave wagons would not succeed and they had to sacrifice Dave on D2, claim leadership on this basis and lim me on D3 and switch to outside hood on D4.

[Snow2697]

snow get in the hood please

we have to talk

Got it. Will think it over.
Let's stay our "mislim snow-lim gypyx/thom" deal for the time being.
UNVOTE:

[Snow2697]

If people let me know their views on Titus, this would help me a lot.

[Snow2697]

Snow what have these Wonder Twins been saying in the Hood?

Don't want to disclose content of the hood talk. But my position in the open thread reflected what was going on there. Trying to figure out the likely set up now with these developments.

[Snow2697]

Don't want to disclose content of the hood talk. But my position in the open thread reflected what was going on there. Trying to figure out the likely set up now with these developments.

...
...why don't you want to disclose it?

I have a channel to exchange views with players there. It will be of little use for me if I disclose its content in the public channel.

[Snow2697]

A number of points:
1. We have a pair of scums or a pair of towns Thomith-Gypyx.
2. They seem to stop scumreading people once the latter stop conflicting with them. Weird. But this can be their desire to protect each other.
3. So, what to do? One approach is to "test" and lim one of them. May be not worth it.
4. The other is that lim one of Thomith-Gypyx later after we milim towns (query is how many tries we give them). If so, another query is how many power we give them in directing a lime (since they will be responsible for a mislim/s).
5. In the scenario where Thomith-Gypyx are town, I would probably focus on Naerys.

[Snow2697]

My post is to invite exchange of views on the issue.
I tend to play for some time, at least this day, on the assumption that you are town.
Maybe we don't need to decide on the number of mislims now.

[Snow2697]

kinda weird to me how many players can't appreciate how townlocked gypyx/thom should be rn

at very worst the hypothetical that they are a team should only be taken seriously if we get to lylo or something with neither another scumlim nor one of their deaths

Another approach is that we simply assume for some time that they are towns, but are not following them. Since even if they are town, they have yet to explain why their vote is right.
Not sure I fully understand their vote into Oblivion.

[Snow2697]

folks on speedwagon:gypyx,thomith,titus,geraintm,wisp
mhm

Do you think the speed wagon is scummy?

i think atleast 1 scum is hiding there

So, Hu Tao said that there is at least 1 scum on my speedwagon.

imo scum likes to hide in a safe spots
"head - belly-tail" are places where scum can often be found (translation: beginning-middle-end of the wagon)

I read this as an attempt to direct attention away from Dave who put me on E-1.

Snow2697 (E-2): Gypyx, Thomith,

Titus

,

geraintm

, Little Will o' Wisp, PenguinPower
davesaz (4):

Titus

, Snow2697,

geraintm

, Hu Tao

just doing some doodles, dont mind me

My speedwagon is about to dissolve, Dave's wagon is up and running. Naerys again diverts attention from Dave to other players.

Now goes D2.

i feel like if rangers claim is true then Hu should just fly through the window

Pushing votes into town!Hu Tao.

2.13

Votecount 2.13

Ranger (4): Random Nurse, Gypyx, Titus, Oblivion
Hu Tao (3): Lycanfire, Ranger, Naerys
Naerys (1): PenguinPower
Thomith (1): Snow2697
Snow2697 (1): Thomith
Random Nurse (1): Hu Tao

Not Voting (2): geraintm, KayJayQueue

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-04-07 10:29:00).

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here.

Ranger's and Hu Tao's wagons running in parallel.

2.14

Votecount 2.14

Ranger (3): Random Nurse, Titus, Oblivion
Hu Tao (3): Ranger, Naerys, PenguinPower
Snow2697 (2): Thomith, Gypyx
Thomith (1): Snow2697
Random Nurse (1): Hu Tao

Not Voting (3): geraintm, KayJayQueue, Lycanfire

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-04-07 10:29:00).

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here.

Penguin replaced Lycan in Hu Tao's wagon. Critical point. Both wagons had 3 passengers. Which one would succeed?

2.16

Votecount 2.16

Ranger (E-2): Random Nurse, Titus, Oblivion, PenguinPower, Lycanfire
Hu Tao (2): Ranger, Naerys
Snow2697 (2): Thomith, Gypyx
PenguinPower (2): KayJayQueue, Hu Tao
Thomith (1): Snow2697

Not Voting (1): geraintm

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-04-07 10:29:00).

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here.

Penguin and Lycan went into Ranger putting him at E-2. Ranger and Naerys stayed in Hu Tao. Ranger would be finished soon.

[Snow2697]

So, Naerys was trying to save Dave-Ranger, at the same time refusing to answer legit questions.
Lycan and Pshyche gave crucial votes into Ranger and should not be considered today.
VOTE: Naerys

[Snow2697]

So, my position for today:
Thomith-Gypyx - assumed towns
Lycan-Psyche - towns from D2 vote analysis
Titus-Gera - towns whom Naerys tried to compromise on D1. If Naerys flips scum, this would prove their townread.
Naerys - scum, good lime candidate.

[Snow2697]

2.08

Votecount 2.08

Ranger (4): Hu Tao, Random Nurse, Thomith, Gypyx
Naerys (3): Ranger, Titus, PenguinPower
Titus (1): Naerys
Thomith (1): Snow2697

Not Voting (4): Oblivion, geraintm, KayJayQueue, Lycanfire

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-04-06 10:29:00).

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here. Also POST 1000 IS MINE!!!

and here i am the counter wagon
with ranger leading it
DO YOU STILL THINK WE ARE ALIGNED?

Ranger was sus and did good distancing.
And his vote vs you was "work in progress", you started to go up on his list, he voted Hu Tao and then you joined him in a Hu Tao's counterwagon to Ranger's.

{PenguinPower}
{Gypyx}
{KayJayQueue}
{Snow2697}
{Random Nurse}
{geraintm}
{Naerys}
{Oblivion}
{Thomith}
{Titus}
{Lycanfire}
{Hu Tao}

P13

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Snow2697]

And ... Naerys is silent on all the other points which I mentioned. Will you have a say on them Naerys?

[Snow2697]

What points? Havent seen any

My posts 2254-2255.

[Snow2697]

Why is Titus a better lime for today than Naerys?

During D1 and D2 Naerys demonstrated a pattern of directing attention from scum!dave to others, incl. town!hu tao. Towns can make mistakes, but such a pattern ... She did not explain it and is acting incooperatively to say the least.

We have 2 concepts:

1. Naerys lime. Concept - shielding scum!dave. She is the focus of (a) Dave-Ranger's wagons and counterwagons, (b) Wisp-Naerys conflict from D1 about "wagon is bad is very easy for scum" and (c) voting outside the hood.

2. Titus lime. Concept - bussing scum!dave. Also means vote into the hood. (Please add reasons here, don't see them yet.)

I think "bussing" is too early now and "shielding" should be preferred. Re hood-no hood, there are Thomith-Gypyx-me, so limming within the hood may mean that we will be voting the hood forever. Should be a strong reason to vote inside the hood now.

My strong preference for today is Naerys. I can consider someone else from non-hood, other than Lycan-Psyche (atm towns for me from D2 vote analysis) and Gera (compromised by Naerys on D1). If Gera is limmed and is town, I will really press Naerys tomorrow.

[Snow2697]

Anyone else feels like snow is kinda quickly changing tune

It's not. I still want to lim you.

[Snow2697]

is that vote a hammer?

I think that Naerys is now at E-1.

[Snow2697]

Let's hammer Naerys. I don't see a better candidate for today from the "who tried to save Dave" perspective.

[Snow2697]

Dont call me that, thanks

I still will.

[Snow2697]

Many thanks to everyone for the game.
Special thank you to Alianna for hosting it.