Large Normal 247 - Postgame

[Alianna]

4.04

Votecount 4.04

Enchant (E-2): Lycanfire, Gypyx, KayJayQueue
geraintm (1): Enchant

Not Voting (5): Random Nurse, Oblivion, geraintm, Thomith, Psyche

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-04-29 13:51:06).

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here.

[Psyche]

I still believe

this is where i wrap gera's name in a vote tag

[Oblivion]

I still believe

this is where i wrap gera's name in a vote tag

How we feeling about Enchant's wagon and about our claimed masons not dying btw?

It recognizes that their lack of deaths can be a gut check against us to see if we will kill one of them and then they kill the other tonight but it doesn't think they are getting shot tonight either with these kills. Hu Tao? Snow? Why were these kills made?

If we don't kill them today we have to just say " we believe 100% these are real and are willing to lose to this gambit".

Because it feels that 3 scum neighbours a town neighbour and a town vengeful neighbour plus 10 VTs feels... Like something someone might consider "balanced" frankly.

So what are your thoughts?

[Psyche]

ahhh im pretty bad at setup spec. can't other people be in charge of that part of the game?

[Enchant]

I think they are not killed because they are threat for town, not mafia.

[Enchant]

If we talk about setup, having only hood and vengeful in said hood.

Welll......

[Psyche]

well what

[Thomith]

I still believe

this is where i wrap gera's name in a vote tag

How we feeling about Enchant's wagon and about our claimed masons not dying btw?

It recognizes that their lack of deaths can be a gut check against us to see if we will kill one of them and then they kill the other tonight but it doesn't think they are getting shot tonight either with these kills. Hu Tao? Snow? Why were these kills made?

If we don't kill them today we have to just say " we believe 100% these are real and are willing to lose to this gambit".

Because it feels that 3 scum neighbours a town neighbour and a town vengeful neighbour plus 10 VTs feels... Like something someone might consider "balanced" frankly.

So what are your thoughts?

I crumbed immediately, and me and Gypyx buddies almost immediately. It would have been completely crazy to have tied ourselves together so blatantly if we were scum together in a hood, and then pushed town to begin sorting within said hood on Day 2.
Even if we didn't claim this, we were so blatantly tied together by play if we were scum and one of us got executed, the other immediately gets executed afterwards.

[Thomith]

We were either left alive because:
a) members of the town were doubting me/Gypyx, had outright said if we kept living then they would push for our execution, and scum kept us alive in hopes that this will actually happen.
b) those people doubting the claim are scum, and are keeping us alive to push a narrative and try and force a mislim at ELo if we get there.

[Oblivion]

I still believe

this is where i wrap gera's name in a vote tag

How we feeling about Enchant's wagon and about our claimed masons not dying btw?

It recognizes that their lack of deaths can be a gut check against us to see if we will kill one of them and then they kill the other tonight but it doesn't think they are getting shot tonight either with these kills. Hu Tao? Snow? Why were these kills made?

If we don't kill them today we have to just say " we believe 100% these are real and are willing to lose to this gambit".

Because it feels that 3 scum neighbours a town neighbour and a town vengeful neighbour plus 10 VTs feels... Like something someone might consider "balanced" frankly.

So what are your thoughts?

I crumbed immediately, and me and Gypyx buddies almost immediately. It would have been completely crazy to have tied ourselves together so blatantly if we were scum together in a hood, and then pushed town to begin sorting within said hood on Day 2.
Even if we didn't claim this, we were so blatantly tied together by play if we were scum and one of us got executed, the other immediately gets executed afterwards.

Gambits are exactly how you describe them, though. Seeing 3 scum in a neighbourhood I would also consider claiming this.

It is just in a position where it looks at your claim and it fits just as well as a gambit play. And you and Gypyx's votes fit as players who initially wanted Ranger to live but once you saw Ranger was cooked Ranger stopped trying and you found your way back onto the wagon.

Mason or Scum Gambit you don't actually have a good argument for why you aren't the second one here.

[Oblivion]

We were either left alive because:
a) members of the town were doubting me/Gypyx, had outright said if we kept living then they would push for our execution, and scum kept us alive in hopes that this will actually happen.
b) those people doubting the claim are scum, and are keeping us alive to push a narrative and try and force a mislim at ELo if we get there.

Right except the flaw in your logic is that it has consistently refused to deal with you at ELO. It's before ELO or its never. It will not have a whole last chance day dedicated to deciding if we believe you or not.

We either resolve you both before then or we just agree to lose to it.

[Psyche]

I think they can be readily townread independently of their claims. For example, scum thomith doesn't casually clear snow by disassociation w davesaz like he did yesterday.

[Oblivion]

Like your arguments are super bad. Nothing you are saying is remotely persuasive or capable of being done by only townies. You are playing precisely in the range of the gambit.

[Thomith]

We were either left alive because:
a) members of the town were doubting me/Gypyx, had outright said if we kept living then they would push for our execution, and scum kept us alive in hopes that this will actually happen.
b) those people doubting the claim are scum, and are keeping us alive to push a narrative and try and force a mislim at ELo if we get there.

Right except the flaw in your logic is that it has consistently refused to deal with you at ELO. It's before ELO or its never. It will not have a whole last chance day dedicated to deciding if we believe you or not.

We either resolve you both before then or we just agree to lose to it.

To be fair, to my knowledge, you haven't been that vocal in doubting our claim until today, so I was more talking about Random Nurse.

[Oblivion]

I think they can be readily townread independently of their claims. For example, scum thomith doesn't casually clear snow by disassociation w davesaz like he did yesterday.

Well it had told them Snow was never dying even on Day 2. It had fended off like 6 snow wagons this game. At some point why not flip then murder them at night once you make that assertion to give credence to why they were shot over you?

[Oblivion]

We were either left alive because:
a) members of the town were doubting me/Gypyx, had outright said if we kept living then they would push for our execution, and scum kept us alive in hopes that this will actually happen.
b) those people doubting the claim are scum, and are keeping us alive to push a narrative and try and force a mislim at ELo if we get there.

Right except the flaw in your logic is that it has consistently refused to deal with you at ELO. It's before ELO or its never. It will not have a whole last chance day dedicated to deciding if we believe you or not.

We either resolve you both before then or we just agree to lose to it.

To be fair, to my knowledge, you haven't been that vocal in doubting our claim until today, so I was more talking about Random Nurse.

It explicitly told town that if you and Gypyx killed it yesterday and it flipped town to then kill one of you tomorrow (now today) to prevent having to answer this in ELO. It didn't feel like needing to distract from its other hunts but if it was going to die it felt it was crucial that you were resolved today.

[Psyche]

don't think the bar should be "can only town do this?" but rather "is it reasonably plausible that scum would do this?" and imo the answer is no.

[Oblivion]

Infact it also used the same logic wrt Ranger's claim. Gypyx wanted to save Ranger for testing BASED on that claim, then when it explained to them why that logic was wrong they didn't really retract or flip, just go "haha yeah you're right oops" and then ghost the convo for a bit and still not vote Ranger. Only once it got Lycan and Penguin onboard did it see you both rejoin.

[Psyche]

I think they can be readily townread independently of their claims. For example, scum thomith doesn't casually clear snow by disassociation w davesaz like he did yesterday.

Well it had told them Snow was never dying even on Day 2. It had fended off like 6 snow wagons this game. At some point why not flip then murder them at night once you make that assertion to give credence to why they were shot over you?

don't really see why this would be a big factor in their decision-making around snow as scum given that you have only one vote and also were nearly limmed yesterday

[Oblivion]

don't think the bar should be "can only town do this?" but rather "is it reasonably plausible that scum would do this?" and imo the answer is no.

It is plausible if they planned their gambit this far in advance which theg would have to have done.

Let it grab you the interaction with Gypyx it had.

[Oblivion]

I think they can be readily townread independently of their claims. For example, scum thomith doesn't casually clear snow by disassociation w davesaz like he did yesterday.

Well it had told them Snow was never dying even on Day 2. It had fended off like 6 snow wagons this game. At some point why not flip then murder them at night once you make that assertion to give credence to why they were shot over you?

don't really see why this would be a big factor in their decision-making around snow as scum given that you have only one vote and also were nearly limmed yesterday

If they eliminated me yesterday my flip would likely have sunk them it thinks. Flipping me as town with the way they played it means town has to test them, no? And it was only really saved by you not by them.

[geraintm]

set up spec isn't my bag at all. im still trying to work out if we are playing vs 3 or 4 and so if the showdown with gypyx & thom needs to happen sooner rather than later. i think they need to be tested at some point - i don't especially want to get into the end game vs them.

my gut says they are town, i've been assuming they are town, but i don't think we lose too much in killing one at some point.

they have to recognise that the rest of us have to doubt them and cannot give them a free pass the rest of the game.

I think they are not killed because they are threat for town, not mafia.

im not sure what this means - threat to town? you think they are straight up scum??

[Oblivion]

Ranger's claim is so many levels of BS.

Does no one except it remember when Ranger bragged about how surprised it woupd be about her claim and then claimed the least surprising most obvious bait claim in the world that didn't match that tone at all?

What is going to happen is that Ranger will live today if you let her, live tomorrow on promise of shooting someone but you will never get that shot. Either they will claim to be roleblocked or shoot a townie and then if you go "okay time to sort ranger" it is MELO and you won't have space to do it.

Now is the time to murder this suspicious player with a suspicious claim. Town does not need a N3 Vig or a N4 Jailkeeper, and more likely it is a scum fake claim.

We should not be running up other players to claim to feed the scum more info on our roles.

Murder Ranger with it, they will flip scum.

i absolutely murder ranger if she claims RBed tommorow

but there is value in letting things play out

actually hmmm, scum vig isn't even out of the picture lol, this is a complex

Ranger's claim is so many levels of BS.

Does no one except it remember when Ranger bragged about how surprised it woupd be about her claim and then claimed the least surprising most obvious bait claim in the world that didn't match that tone at all?

What is going to happen is that Ranger will live today if you let her, live tomorrow on promise of shooting someone but you will never get that shot. Either they will claim to be roleblocked or shoot a townie and then if you go "okay time to sort ranger" it is MELO and you won't have space to do it.

Now is the time to murder this suspicious player with a suspicious claim. Town does not need a N3 Vig or a N4 Jailkeeper, and more likely it is a scum fake claim.

We should not be running up other players to claim to feed the scum more info on our roles.

Murder Ranger with it, they will flip scum.

i absolutely murder ranger if she claimes RBed tommorow

but there is value in letting things play out

actually hmmm, scum vig isn't even out of the picture lol, this is a complex

Tomorrow???!?!!

Tonight is NIGHT 2.

You won't get to know anything until 2 cycles from now on DAY 4.

It is losing its mind.

yeah my bad i misspoke

Night 3 vig Night 4 jailkeeper

this is what it is speaking of

[Thomith]

set up spec isn't my bag at all. im still trying to work out if we are playing vs 3 or 4 and so if the showdown with gypyx & thom needs to happen sooner rather than later. i think they need to be tested at some point - i don't especially want to get into the end game vs them.

my gut says they are town, i've been assuming they are town, but i don't think we lose too much in killing one at some point.

they have to recognise that the rest of us have to doubt them and cannot give them a free pass the rest of the game.

I think they are not killed because they are threat for town, not mafia.

im not sure what this means - threat to town? you think they are straight up scum??

If you kill one of us, you are killing both of us.
it's not a "test it and let the other live", it's if you kill one of us, the other immediately gets killed at night

[Oblivion]

In the end Psyche it thinks you are the only player it trusts to be 100 percent town here.

So if you say "we just trust this is town and lose if it isnt" it will gladly put the pressure of that decision on you.

It doesn't believe it is as clear cut as you think however.