Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[Goatrevolt]

2. A better option is Bd2. It doesn't restrict our queen, (1)develops the other bishop, (2)threatens the b4 pawn, (3)and still allows us to castle, just via queenside. (4)Castling is also going to be more effective, since castling to the kingside would involve also having a bishop at e2, effectively keeping the rooks from getting into the game for a while.

1. How?
2. That's pretty nice indeed, but ...a5 would stop that
3. So does Be2?
4. Not following about the rooks part.

1. It moves it into a position where it is pressuring another piece and likewise clearing a path for castling (should it be necessary) or moving out that rook.
2. a5 stops the pressure on b4, but opens alternatives.
3. Be2 does nothing. It may "develop" the bishop, but it puts no pressure on black and doesn't advance our position any. Bd2 is superior, because it forces black to react by defending their pawn on b4. Be2 on the other hand, allows black to gain tempo by making whatever kind of aggressive move they want.
4. The only file right now where our rooks would have any presence is the e file, which would be blocked off by Be2. I realize now, that this is a fairly moot point anyway, as Ne4 blocks that file regardless.

[Awesome Pants]

Moves
Bd2(4)-Goatrevolt,Indigo Heron,SensFan,Pesco47
d5(2)- The Central Scrutinizer,Lawrencelot
Be2(1)-Veerus

Not voting (3) - SensFan,sirdanilot, Gorrad

People
Veerus(1)-The Central Scrutinizer
The Central Scrutinizer(1)-Veerus

[Indigo Heron]

Oh God. I found a break in my list of possible moves for Bd2 that may not be good for White. For now,

unmove

while I consider other moves.

[MafiaSSK]

Moves
Bd2(3)-Goatrevolt,SensFan,Pesco47
d5(2)- The Central Scrutinizer,Lawrencelot
Be2(1)-Veerus

Not voting (4) - SensFan,sirdanilot, Gorrad,Indigo Heron

People
Veerus(1)-The Central Scrutinizer
The Central Scrutinizer(1)-Veerus

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Oh God. I found a break in my list of possible moves for Bd2 that may not be good for White. For now,

unmove

while I consider other moves.

If it was strong enough to convince you, please post it so these other people will unvote too.

[Indigo Heron]

11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qb3 Kh8 14. Bd3 Bb7 15. Bxf5 Rc8 16. Ne5 Ne4 17. Bxe4 Bxe4 18. O-O Rxc2

*chess tag removed*e4 c5 Nc3 Nc6 f4 e6 Nf3 f5 exf5 exf5 Qe2 Be7 Nd5 Nb4 Nxb4 cxb4 d4 Nf6 Qc4 a6 Bd2 b5 Qd3 O-O Qb3 Kh8 Bd3 Bb7 Bxf5 Rc8 Ne5 Ne4 Bxe4 Bxe4 O-O Rxc2*/chess tag removed*

That's on my piece of paper. There may be better moves than this, but this position obviously gets us nowhere, in my opinion.

[veerus]

Without analyzing too much about it: Qd3 then Qb3? Seems like a wasted move making the rest of your analysis flawed.

[Indigo Heron]

11. Bd2 b5 12. Qb3 Bb7 13. Ne5 Bd5 14. Qh3 O-O 15. Bd3 Ne4 16. Bxe4 Bxe4 17. Qb3 d5 18. O-O Qd6 19. Rfe1 Rac8 20. Rac1 Rfe8

*chess tag removed*e4 c5 Nc3 Nc6 f4 e6 Nf3 f5 exf5 exf5 Qe2 Be7 Nd5 Nb4 Nxb4 cxb4 d4 Nf6 Qc4 a6 Bd2 b5 Bd2 b5 Qb3 Bb7 Ne5 Bd5 Qh3 O-O Bd3 Ne4 Bxe4 Bxe4 Qb3 d5 O-O Qd6 Rfe1 Rac8 Rac1 Rfe8*/chess tag removed*

I was prepared for you to say that. The above board would happen. Qd3 first, then Qb3, allows Black the chance to castle and solidfy his king's position, but leaves him forced to defend a Qb3+ from which White can take some advantage and pick of a few pawns here and there. Going straight to Qb3 means that Black is forced to develop his pieces, and it really doesn't seem like it's going anywhere from the above chessboard view. To me, Black has a slight advantage since they are better placed to win exchanges as compared to us. Thus, I do not like Bd2 one bit. Besides, 12. Qb3 is one move too late for us to play.

I will, however, would move for 11. Qb3 immediately. I'm still working out the consequences of said move. Other moves that I am considering but have yet to work out are veerus' 11. Be2 and 11. Ne5. 11. Qd3 may also be an interesting proposition.

However, anyone wishing to chase after 11. d5, please reconsider. It's a bad move, and believe me when I say that we'll be forced to resort to lynchings to win.

[veerus]

Your analysis makes Bd2 less appealing than I thought it was.

What about a4? If black chooses to en passant, we will free up some of the congestion on the queen side. If they choose not to, the only way to attack the queen will be d5 which isn't exactly terrible for us. Well, except for making the e4 square inaccessible to white.. Hmm.. not sure I like that.

Another option is c3.

However, anyone wishing to chase after 11. d5, please reconsider. It's a bad move, and believe me when I say that we'll be forced to resort to lynchings to win.

QFT.

[Goatrevolt]

11. Bd2 b5 12. Qb3 Bb7 13. Ne5

I got to here and then wondered why we wouldn't just play 13. Bxb4.

[Goatrevolt]

And actually, I'm a little suspicious that neither you nor veerus considered Bxb4, considering pressuring that pawn is pretty much the point of Bd2. If black doesn't move to defend it, we just simply take it. If they do move to defend it, we have good alternatives.

Qb3 and Be2 are both bad moves. I don't like how discussion has reverted back to those options. Qb3 defends our queen before black even bothers to attack it by throwing it in the corner where it does basically nothing. Be2 moves our bishop into a position where it does nothing so that we can open up the avenue of kingside castling, which is completely unnecessary right now.

I remember considering a4/c3 and deciding against them earlier, but I can't remember why. I'll look at them again.

[Indigo Heron]

@Goatrevolt: Off the top of my head, if 13. Bxb4,

13. Bxb4? Bxf3 14. gxf3 Bxb4+ 15. Qxb4 Nd5!.

Just by looking at the notation, I can already tell that things aren't going to go down well with White.

[Goatrevolt]

@Goatrevolt: Off the top of my head, if 13. Bxb4,

13. Bxb4? Bxf3 14. gxf3 Bxb4+ 15. Qxb4 Nd5!.

*chess tag removed*e4 c5 Nc3 Nc6 f4 e6 Nf3 f5 exf5 exf5 Qe2 Be7 Nd5 Nb4 Nxb4 cxb4 d4 Nf6 Qc4 a6 Bd2 b5 Bd2 b5 Qb3 Bb7 Bxb4 Bxf3 gxf3 Bxb4 Qxb4 Nd5*/chess tag removed*

16. Qd6. Leads to some interesting positions, but I think we maintain equality at worst, and have attacking options. I'll look more into it tomorrow.

[Indigo Heron]

If that be the case, 16. ...Qh4+! How would you move then?

Oh yeah, I'd like to refer to one of your earlier posts. You said that Bd2 was superior since it meant that Black had to defend the b4 pawn. Black doesn't have to; he can't defend the pawn reasonably well anyway. Besides, Black can still attempt to defend it by harassing other pieces; our Queen, for example.

[Indigo Heron]

If that be the case, 16. ...Qh4+! How would you move then?

Oh yeah, I'd like to refer to one of your earlier posts. You said that Bd2 was superior since it meant that Black had to defend the b4 pawn. Black doesn't have to; he can't defend the pawn reasonably well anyway. Besides, Black can still attempt to defend it by harassing other pieces; our Queen, for example.

[Indigo Heron]

Crap, can you delete the double post? Thanks in advance.

[Pesco47]

Why not just move 11. Ne5? There's only 1 solution to it as I see right now. I don't have a followup in mind yet.

[Gorrad]

Sorry, life and computer issues. Rereading, will say something then.

[sirdanilot]

V/LAish today and maybe tomorrow, after that I'll have plenty of time I think. sorry!

[Goatrevolt]

Why not just move 11. Ne5? There's only 1 solution to it as I see right now. I don't have a followup in mind yet.

I'm not a fan.

11. Ne5, d5
12. Qb3, O-O

I think e5 is a great place for our knight to be eventually, but I don't think we really benefit from moving him there now. That's one of those moves that the threat of making that move is stronger than actually moving there (at least for now).

If that be the case, 16. ...Qh4+! How would you move then?

Yep, that's the move black almost certainly makes.

17. Kd1

I've looked through that line some (I'm still looking for the right move set), and it looks like white doesn't really achieve much more than equality. There are a few lines that lead to some nice attacks, but black always seems to have an answer.

I don't want to give up on Bd2 yet, but I'll concede that 13. Bxb4 probably leads to a draw/loss unless black screws up. I'll keep looking at it, at any rate.

I'm still interested, though. Did you consider Bxb4 and discard it as being a bad move, or did you just find out that it didn't really work after I pointed it out?

[veerus]

As is becoming evident, if we don't castle now, we may not have time to castle later. I still say Be2 is our best option.

[Indigo Heron]

@Goatrevolt: Are you sure you wish to do that?!

17. ...Ne3+ (if you still wish to continue) and now Black has a clear advantage (if it wasn't evident enough earlier).

@veerus: I know that. However, I can't seem to decide on either Ne5 or your Be2, or Qb3. All of them, just as Goatrevolt said, lead to some nice attacks by White, but Black will still force out a drawn position time in and time out.

[Goatrevolt]

@Goatrevolt: Are you sure you wish to do that?!

17. ...Ne3+ (if you still wish to continue) and now Black has a clear advantage (if it wasn't evident enough earlier).

Actually, Ne3+ was kind of a trap I had planned out, because after 18. Kd2 black doesn't have anything left. However, looking at it again, I realize I completely overlooked 18...Nxc2, which would foil that plan completely.

At any rate, I concede the point.

Out of Qb3, Ne5, Be2 I think Qb3 is probably the best of the bunch. Ne5 I think is poor for the reasons I mentioned previously. It basically forces black into making the move they want to make in that situation anyway. I also think the threat of Ne5 is more powerful than the knight actually being at e5. Be2 I think is poor as well, because I remain unconvinced that our king is safer castled kingside, and I don't think it's necessary to waste 2 moves to do so.

Qb3 at least retains tempo, as black is forced to move d5 (without actively threatening anything) before they can castle. That effectively gives us back control. As for what we do after that point...I'll have to look into it. Maybe some Bd2 would hit the spot .

There has to be a better move than Qb3, though. I will continue to look.

Unmove

[Goatrevolt]

Actually, Ne3+ was kind of a trap I had planned out, because after 18. Kd2 black doesn't have anything left.

That would be 18. Ke2. And actually, black has 18...Nc4 as well, which also looks bad.

[Lawrencelot]

But if we do something else than Qb3, they will also probably move d5, and we can do Qb3 after that. Like someone (veerus?) said, our Queen is not under attack right now.