Mini 718: DICTATOR Mafia {Game over!}

[Jazzmyn]

Jazzmyn has a good idea, but the point is that the rules state "The bulletproof vest provides immunity all kill attempts". Not "scum kill attempts", "All kill attempts". Yet he was killed at night. All I can think of is that he didn't use that power for some reason.

Huh? You seem to be talking about Caligulaph's death, while I was talking about Occam's death.

I think that the reason for Caligulaph's death is quite apparent. He said clearly that he was not going to invoke self-protection, after all, and since we now know that he was town, there is no reason to think that he was lying about that.

My point, though, was about Occam's death, which I don't think Caligulaph brought about.

As for rules, as I mentioned above, I read Mini 697, and in that game, the rules stated, "While imprisoned, those players cannot target others and

cannot be targeted by others

" and yet during the night, an imprisoned player was targeted and killed by scum, thanks to a secret and unknown one-shot scum power, and the result was absolutely against the stated rules as written, but subsequently explained by Machiavellian-Mafia's Rule 10 over-ride.

I think that's what we have here, as well, because it makes no sense for Caligulaph to have killed Occam.

Regards,
Jazz

[Gorrad]

Oh. I didn't see that he had stated that he wouldn't use the protection.

Well, that's a horse of a different color. Perhaps, then, he simply didn't use either. An SK or second scumkill could easily explain it. No big worries for now!

[SiestaGuru]

Using neither, the kill and the protection would be incredibly stupid. So I think we can assume he either killed occam, or used his protection.

The dictator killing Occam would not only be unlikely, but It would also mean the mafia aimed for cali with their nightkill. This seems too risky to be a viable mafia tactic to me.

So Id say its pretty save to assume (id say around a 80% chance) that either the mafia, or a townie was able to kill cali through his protection.

Cali seemed quite towny to me. So its only logical to assume the mafia have the ability to kill the dictator through his protection, a townie would have picked another target. There are loads of other options, but this one seems by far the most logical to me.

On a related note, why was the chance of the overthrow so high? Did I miss something?did the mod make a mistake? Or does der hammer have a higher overthrow chance?

[Der Hammer]

I was suspicious of Jebus because he suggested trading a town doctor for a scum, without trying to get rid of the scum without a townie death first. Didn't seem very townie to me.

Same reason for me.

Yes, I had a higher overthrow percentage. Thought I should use it while I had the chance.

Anybody else want to make a strong case for the execution? I am prepared to listen, but will be going back to make my main suspect list.

[Moratorium]

There seemed to be discussion/confusion on the deaths that occured on Day 1, and I wanted to inject what my opinion was on the first day's deaths:

Dead
4. SlySly, Genghis Khan, Protown Doctor, executed Day 1
10. Caligulaph, Augusto Pinochet, Protown Tracker, Poisoned to Death Night 1
9. Occam, Saddam Hussein, Protown Vanilla Townie, Shot to Death Night 1

Executed: Self-explanatory
Shot to Death: Flavor typically attributed to Mafia Night Kill
Poisoned to Death: SK / VK / Special game mechanic

These are assumptions. Please make your case if you disagree with them.

So as I see it:

- Cali executed Sly
- Mafia kills Occam (Dictatorthon proposal guy, did anyone honestly have a good read? All of his posts were one-liners. Was also one of Cali's "officers", so when Cali flips town Occam might gain town trust, seems like a fairly tame cast-no-undue-suspicions night kill)
- Unknown element kills Caligulaph, either because he chose not to self-protect, or because the unknown element somehow ignored the protection. (Difficult to pin a motive without knowing the unknown element's win condition, but that said, when I saw post 239, the first thought that came to me was "Thank God I don't have to translate that guy's every post into 4 actual words of meaning anymore")

I think that the reason for Caligulaph's death is quite apparent. He said clearly that he was not going to invoke self-protection, after all, and since we now know that he was town, there is no reason to think that he was lying about that.

Just because I'm having a hard time finding it myself through all his...

language

...can you (or anyone else for that matter) please point out where he said he was not going to invoke self-protection.

Also, am I reading this correctly that the case against Jebus boils down to

"trading 1:1 town:scum is always/never/sometimes good/bad"

, and that there are no other elements to it? (I'm reserving judgement until someone can actually confirm this for me one way or the other).

And finally, Der Hammer, who is, as you say, "your main suspect list?" Your contribution to this game has been minimal (hypocrisy noted, thank you).

I'm back from vacation and will be active in this game again.

[Jazzmyn]

Just because I'm having a hard time finding it myself through all his...

language

...can you (or anyone else for that matter) please point out where he said he was not going to invoke self-protection.

In his last post (#233), he said that he would be abdicating and "sacrificing [his] protection" and then went on to say that he did not expect to make it through the night alive. I took that to mean that he was not going to invoke self-protection.

Regards,
Jazz

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

Korlash replaces christano drago, effective immediately. Let's welcome Korlash to the game!

[Korlash]

Executed: Self-explanatory
Shot to Death: Flavor typically attributed to Mafia Night Kill
Poisoned to Death: SK / VK / Special game mechanic

I'm not so sure here. If you think about it, in a flavorwise dictatorship an assassin or hitman is likely to use a gun where-as a close adversary of the current ruler would likely use something less obvious. i base this off the fact if this was a dictatorship there would be levels under the ruler and let's say his second in comand wanted to kill him and take over, do you really think walking up to the guy and shooting him will work out well for the guy trying to usurp?

Just a thought, but if we are going to speculate on who killed whom last night my opinion would be mafia would most likely belong to the poison.

*clears throat* Will all that's going on I forgot to introduce myself...

Friends, people I don't know, you guys in the corner... Lend me your eyes! (and wallets... cough 'em up...) For i am the great and merciful Korlash, ruler of the high seas, dictator to all of the Far Far Away East, breif runner in the gangs of new york, and also was a temp for a week at the law firm of Bender, Bender, Spiendle, and Ricktor!

I have come to liberate you from the tyranny of the aristocratic senate! The Jedi order shall rule... wait wrong movie... where was I... right right, no longer shall your voices be ignored! No longer shall your stomaches ache with the pains of hunger and disease! No longer shall merchants charge an arm and a leg for snowcones! From now on... every Slyday shall be Two for one arm Snow Cone Day!

Also a warning! Do not oppose the will of the people and the Gods! For all mischeif and wrongdoings shall be looked upon as if it were a hairy bug! disgusting and unimaginable! All transgressors shall be rounded up and thrown into the colliseum to fight to the death for my amuesment... WAIT... Sorry, overspoke. I meant for the people's amuesment!

*bows*

Now back on topic...

Yes, I had a higher overthrow percentage. Thought I should use it while I had the chance.

Why did you have a higher percentage?

[SiestaGuru]

Welcome korlash. May you find many mafia members....

Even more off-topic: Your name had me confused for a while because it sounded so familiar, your avatar made me realise why


On-topic now:

The "im going to drop my protection" thing cali did might have just been a trap or something like that, with him hoping the mafia would use their nightkill on him. No towny dictator would willingly sacrifice a confirmed townys protection (I bet he saw himself as confirmed) if this protection has no drawbacks, no matter how stupid this towny may have been.
Well unless he thought he was so suspicious that he would get lynched, so by getting himself killed wed have another lynch... But he didnt seem suspicious at all to me and not to any of you as far as I can tell. So that would be very strange.

[Korlash]

well 2 things. 1) Whether he thought of himself as confirmed or not he KNEW he was town. So he knew 100% taking protection would have been protecting a townie. I'm going to go reread this post where he said what he said to see if I can draw any different conclusions.

2) Unless I'm mistaken we don't lynch. And as he was the dictator at the time I don't see how he would be worried of being exicuted. the only thing that might support anything on this line of thought was that he may have felt responcible for the death of the doctor. That could mean he had some guilty feelings. Still... I personally think this would have lead him to take the portection because if he was feelign guilty about killing the doc then I find it hard to believe he would send the police to kill someone else.

[SiestaGuru]

well 2 things. 1) Whether he thought of himself as confirmed or not he KNEW he was town. So he knew 100% taking protection would have been protecting a townie.

Thats exactly what I ment... Confirmed as in confirmed for himself not as in confirmed for the town.

2) Unless I'm mistaken we don't lynch. And as he was the dictator at the time I don't see how he would be worried of being exicuted. the only thing that might support anything on this line of thought was that he may have felt responcible for the death of the doctor. That could mean he had some guilty feelings. Still... I personally think this would have lead him to take the portection because if he was feelign guilty about killing the doc then I find it hard to believe he would send the police to kill someone else.

Well yes executed ofcourse (this game confuses me ) . But we were thinking of this rotation system (did we agree on that ?) and he said he was going to abdicate so another dictator would have likely ruled today. So he could have been executed, but on the other hand... I Doubt a dictator that has just been granted power by another player would execute the one that gave him this power....

Anyways, all reasonings for ways that dont involve killing through protection seem pretty shallow to me. If it even matters how this kill was done, I think its the best way to assume its this method.

[Korlash]

I still like to plan and worry about the WCS. And that would be there are 2 killing forces and one of them is able to overide the vest.

Granted Occam's Razor suggests otherwise, but there was no rule 10 when Occam first bought that thing...

[Der Hammer]

Now back on topic...

Yes, I had a higher overthrow percentage. Thought I should use it while I had the chance.

Why did you have a higher percentage?

It's part of my role.


Jebus is still my main subject and will be close to execution, unless someone puts forward a better argument for someone else.

[Moratorium]

Jebus is still my main subject and will be

close to execution

, unless someone puts forward a better argument for someone else.

19 days before deadline, why are you trying to rush this through? Discussion is pro-town.

I'd still like to hear responses to this:

Also, am I reading this correctly that the case against Jebus boils down to "trading 1:1 town:scum is always/never/sometimes good/bad", and that there are no other elements to it? (I'm reserving judgement until someone can actually confirm this for me one way or the other).

[Jebus]

Jebus is still my main subject and will be close to execution, unless someone puts forward a better argument for someone else.

I've got one. You overthrew without explaining yourself further than saying "Just a bad feeling", and you seem to be trying to rush today.

I'd overthrow you myself, but mine was stolen. Is that, by chance, why you've got a higher chance of successful overthrow?


And respond to this:

Also, am I reading this correctly that the case against Jebus boils down to "trading 1:1 town:scum is always/never/sometimes good/bad", and that there are no other elements to it? (I'm reserving judgement until someone can actually confirm this for me one way or the other).

I'd really love to hear this.

[Jebus]

EDIT-Post: The first quote has nothing to do with Korlash, that was an unfortunate copypasta error >.<

[Jebus]

EDIT-EDIT: The overthrow without explanation within 24 hours of the start of day, is what it should say.

[Korlash]

Huh... I think my last post got deleted... >.> Wish I could remember what I said...

[Moratorium]

Well I remember what you said. You said you were uneasy about Der Hammer being the dictator considering that Jebus stated he had lost the ability to overthrow, where as Der Hammer apparently gained more ability to overthrow.

At which point I quoted myself:

Also, am I reading this correctly that the case against Jebus boils down to "trading 1:1 town:scum is always/never/sometimes good/bad", and that there are no other elements to it? (I'm reserving judgement until someone can actually confirm this for me one way or the other).

And said "I'm still reserving judgement what with the site crashes, as I want to hear more from both sides, but

unease

is exactly the word I was looking for."

Then some elves arrived.. a dishwasher started running.. an ambulance siren..

..it got foggy..

...

I might be a little hazy on the ending.

[Occam]

Mod Edit: Dead men tell no tales.

[Gorrad]

overthrow

There are two things wrong with this and both of them are it.

[Occam]

Mod Edit: Dead men tell no tales

[Jebus]

Occam, Saddam Hussein, Protown Vanilla Townie, Shot to Death Night 1

That's what's wrong.

[Moratorium]

The site crash didn't erase you dying, Occam.

[Occam]

Damn it.

/wrist.

OK, problem fixed.