Mini #704: Hunchback of Notre Dame, Game Over

[Mizzy]

I'll be mostly away from the computer for until Monday, but I will try and post before then

[Axelrod]

ugg. I can't believe I also forgot there was a traitor in this game who's going to come up "town" when they die. That makes doing what I'm trying to do more problematic.

But, the scum don't know who the traitor is, yes?, so they'll presumably be treating him as a townie, which makes it not entirely useless.

[Battousai]

3 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, CarnCarn, Machiavellian-Mafia)
2 Battousai (Caboose, Ramus)
1 Caboose (Battousai)
1 Machiavellian-Mafia (MiteyMouse)
1 ortolan (ClockworkRuse)
1 Puta Puta (ThAdmiral)
1 Ramus (Mizzy)
1 ThAdmiral (ortolan)

4 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, CarnCarn, Machiavellian-Mafia, Battousai)
2 Battousai (Caboose, Ramus)
1 destructor (ThAdmiral)
1 Machiavellian-Mafia (MiteyMouse)
1 ortolan (ClockworkRuse)
1 Ramus (Mizzy)
1 ThAdmiral (ortolan)

I switch my vote to CR, CR is now lynchable

5 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, CarnCarn, Machiavellian-Mafia, Battousai, ortolan)
3 Battousai (Caboose, Ramus, destructor)
1 ortolan (ClockworkRuse)
1 Ramus (Mizzy)

Ort switches vote from ThAdmiral to CR. Putting CR at L-2.
ThAdmiral unvotes

5 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, CarnCarn, Machiavellian-Mafia, Battousai, ortolan)
3 Battousai (Caboose, Ramus, destructor)
1 ortolan (ClockworkRuse)

Mizzy unvotes Ramus

3 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, Battousai, ortolan)
2 Battousai (Caboose, destructor)
2 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia, CarnCarn)
2 ortolan (ClockworkRuse, ThAdmiral)

MM unvotes CR and votes Caboose. CR is no longer at L-2.
CC unvotes CR and votes Caboose. CR is no longer lynchable.
ThAdmiral votes Ort
Ramus unvotes myself

3 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, ortolan, Axelrod)
2 Battousai (destructor, ClockworkRuse)
1 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia)
1 Mizzy (Battousai)

I unvote CR and vote Mizzy
Axelrod votes CR
CR unvotes Ort and votes me
Caboose unvotes
CC unvotes Axelrod
ThAdmiral unvotes Ort

5 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, ortolan, Axelrod, CarnCarn, roflcopter)
2 Battousai (destructor, ClockworkRuse)
1 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia)
1 CarnCarn (Caboose)
1 Mizzy (Battousai)

CC votes CR. CR is now lynchable.
roflcopter votes CR. Putting CR at L-2.
Caboose votes CC

5 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, ortolan, Axelrod, CarnCarn, roflcopter)
2 CarnCarn (Caboose, destructor)
1 Battousai (ClockworkRuse)
1 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia)
1 Mizzy (Battousai)

Destructor unvotes myself and votes CC

5 ClockworkRuse (Natirasha, ortolan, Axelrod, CarnCarn, roflcopter)
2 CarnCarn (Caboose, destructor)
1 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia)
1 Mizzy (Battousai)
1 roflcopter (ClockworkRuse)

CR unvotes myself and votes roflcopter

4 ClockworkRuse (ortolan, Axelrod, CarnCarn, roflcopter)
2 CarnCarn (Caboose, destructor)
2 Mizzy (Battousai, Natirasha)
1 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia)
1 roflcopter (ClockworkRuse)

Nat unvotes CR and votes Mizzy. CR is no longer at L-2.

3 CarnCarn (Caboose, destructor, ThAdmiral)
3 ClockworkRuse (ortolan, CarnCarn, roflcopter)
1 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia)
1 Mizzy (Natirasha)
1 roflcopter (ClockworkRuse)

Axelrod unvotes CR. CR is no longer lynchable
ThAdmiral votes CC
I unvote Mizzy

5 urzassedatives (Machiavellian-Mafia, Natirasha, destructor, ClockworkRuse, CarnCarn)
2 CarnCarn (urzassedatives, ThAdmiral)
2 ClockworkRuse (ortolan, roflcopter)
2 Natirasha (Axelrod, Mizzy)

Nat unvotes Mizzy and votes Urza
Destructor unvotes CC and votes Urza
CR unvotes roflcopter and votes Urza. Urza is now lynchable
CC unvotes CR and votes Urza. Urza is now at L-2.
Axelrod votes Nat
Mizzy votes Nat

5 Urzassedatives (Machiavellian-Mafia, Natirasha, destructor, ClockworkRuse, CarnCarn)
3 ClockworkRuse (ortolan, roflcopter, Urzassedatives)
2 Natirasha (Axelrod, Mizzy)
1 CarnCarn (ThAdmiral)

Urza unvotes CC and votes CR

3 ClockworkRuse (ortolan, roflcopter, Urzassedatives)
3 Urzassedatives (Machiavellian-Mafia, Natirasha, ClockworkRuse)
2 Natirasha (Axelrod, Mizzy)
1 CarnCarn (destructor)
1 roflcopter (ThAdmiral)

Destructor unvotes Urza and votes CC. Urza is no longer at L-2.
CC unvotes Urza. Urza is no longer lynchable.
ThAdmiral unvotes CC and votes roflcopter

5 ClockworkRuse (ortolan, roflcopter, Urzassedatives, CarnCarn, Natirasha)
4 Natirasha (Axelrod, Mizzy, Machiavellian-Mafia, ThAdmiral)
1 CarnCarn (destructor)
1 Urzassedatives (ClockworkRuse)

CC votes CR. CR is now lynchable.
Nat unvotes Urza and votes CR. CR is now at L-2.
MM unvotes Urza and votes Nat.
ThAdmiral unvotes roflcopter and votes Nat. Nat is now lynchable (2)

5 Natirasha (Axelrod, Mizzy, Machiavellian-Mafia, ThAdmiral, destructor)
4 ClockworkRuse (roflcopter, Urzassedatives, CarnCarn, Natirasha)
1 Urzassedatives (ClockworkRuse)

Destructor unvotes CC and votes Nat. Nat is now L-2 (2)
Ort unvotes CR, CR is no longer at L-2. CR is (2) and Nat is (1)

[Battousai]

Misclick, post should look like this:

3 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, CarnCarn, Machiavellian-Mafia)
2 Battousai (Caboose, Ramus)
1 Caboose (Battousai)
1 Machiavellian-Mafia (MiteyMouse)
1 ortolan (ClockworkRuse)
1 Puta Puta (ThAdmiral)
1 Ramus (Mizzy)
1 ThAdmiral (ortolan)

4 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, CarnCarn, Machiavellian-Mafia, Battousai)
2 Battousai (Caboose, Ramus)
1 destructor (ThAdmiral)
1 Machiavellian-Mafia (MiteyMouse)
1 ortolan (ClockworkRuse)
1 Ramus (Mizzy)
1 ThAdmiral (ortolan)

I switch my vote to CR, CR is now lynchable

5 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, CarnCarn, Machiavellian-Mafia, Battousai, ortolan)
3 Battousai (Caboose, Ramus, destructor)
1 ortolan (ClockworkRuse)
1 Ramus (Mizzy)

Ort switches vote from ThAdmiral to CR. Putting CR at L-2.
ThAdmiral unvotes

5 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, CarnCarn, Machiavellian-Mafia, Battousai, ortolan)
3 Battousai (Caboose, Ramus, destructor)
1 ortolan (ClockworkRuse)

Mizzy unvotes Ramus

3 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, Battousai, ortolan)
2 Battousai (Caboose, destructor)
2 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia, CarnCarn)
2 ortolan (ClockworkRuse, ThAdmiral)

MM unvotes CR and votes Caboose. CR is no longer at L-2.
CC unvotes CR and votes Caboose. CR is no longer lynchable.
ThAdmiral votes Ort
Ramus unvotes myself

3 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, ortolan, Axelrod)
2 Battousai (destructor, ClockworkRuse)
1 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia)
1 Mizzy (Battousai)

I unvote CR and vote Mizzy
Axelrod votes CR
CR unvotes Ort and votes me
Caboose unvotes
CC unvotes Axelrod
ThAdmiral unvotes Ort

5 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, ortolan, Axelrod, CarnCarn,

roflcopter

)
2 Battousai (destructor, ClockworkRuse)
1 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia)
1 CarnCarn (Caboose)
1 Mizzy (Battousai)

CC votes CR. CR is now lynchable.

roflcopter

votes CR. Putting CR at L-2.
Caboose votes CC

5 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, ortolan, Axelrod, CarnCarn,

roflcopter

)
2 CarnCarn (Caboose, destructor)
1 Battousai (ClockworkRuse)
1 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia)
1 Mizzy (Battousai)

Destructor unvotes myself and votes CC

5 ClockworkRuse (

Natirasha

, ortolan, Axelrod, CarnCarn,

roflcopter

)
2 CarnCarn (Caboose, destructor)
1 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia)
1 Mizzy (Battousai)
1

roflcopter

(ClockworkRuse)

CR unvotes myself and votes

roflcopter

4 ClockworkRuse (ortolan, Axelrod, CarnCarn,

roflcopter

)
2 CarnCarn (Caboose, destructor)
2 Mizzy (Battousai,

Natirasha

)
1 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia)
1

roflcopter

(ClockworkRuse)

Nat

unvotes CR and votes Mizzy. CR is no longer at L-2.

3 CarnCarn (Caboose, destructor, ThAdmiral)
3 ClockworkRuse (ortolan, CarnCarn,

roflcopter

)
1 Caboose (Machiavellian-Mafia)
1 Mizzy (

Natirasha

)
1

roflcopter

(ClockworkRuse)

Axelrod unvotes CR. CR is no longer lynchable
ThAdmiral votes CC
I unvote Mizzy

5 urzassedatives (Machiavellian-Mafia,

Natirasha

, destructor, ClockworkRuse, CarnCarn)
2 CarnCarn (urzassedatives, ThAdmiral)
2 ClockworkRuse (ortolan,

roflcopter

)
2

Natirasha

(Axelrod, Mizzy)

Nat

unvotes Mizzy and votes Urza
Destructor unvotes CC and votes Urza
CR unvotes

roflcopter

and votes Urza. Urza is now lynchable
CC unvotes CR and votes Urza. Urza is now at L-2.
Axelrod votes

Nat

Mizzy votes

Nat

5 Urzassedatives (Machiavellian-Mafia,

Natirasha

, destructor, ClockworkRuse, CarnCarn)
3 ClockworkRuse (ortolan,

roflcopter

, Urzassedatives)
2

Natirasha

(Axelrod, Mizzy)
1 CarnCarn (ThAdmiral)

Urza unvotes CC and votes CR

3 ClockworkRuse (ortolan,

roflcopter

, Urzassedatives)
3 Urzassedatives (Machiavellian-Mafia,

Natirasha

, ClockworkRuse)
2

Natirasha

(Axelrod, Mizzy)
1 CarnCarn (destructor)
1

roflcopter

(ThAdmiral)

Destructor unvotes Urza and votes CC. Urza is no longer at L-2.
CC unvotes Urza. Urza is no longer lynchable.
ThAdmiral unvotes CC and votes

roflcopter

5 ClockworkRuse (ortolan,

roflcopter

, Urzassedatives, CarnCarn,

Natirasha

)
4

Natirasha

(Axelrod, Mizzy, Machiavellian-Mafia, ThAdmiral)
1 CarnCarn (destructor)
1 Urzassedatives (ClockworkRuse)

CC votes CR. CR is now lynchable.

Nat

unvotes Urza and votes CR. CR is now at L-2.
MM unvotes Urza and votes

Nat

.
ThAdmiral unvotes

roflcopter

and votes

Nat

.

Nat

is now lynchable (2)

5

Natirasha

(Axelrod, Mizzy, Machiavellian-Mafia, ThAdmiral, destructor)
4 ClockworkRuse (

roflcopter

, Urzassedatives, CarnCarn,

Natirasha

)
1 Urzassedatives (ClockworkRuse)

Destructor unvotes CC and votes

Nat

.

Nat

is now L-2 (2)
Ort unvotes CR, CR is no longer at L-2. CR is (2) and

Nat

is (1)



[mrow]

Players

[col]

CR lynchable

[col]

CR L-2

[col]

Not Lynchable

[col]

Not L-2

[col]

Urza lynchable

[col]

Urza L-2

[col]

Not Lynchable

[col]

Not L-2

[col]

Nat lynchable

[col]

Nat L-2

[col]

Not Lynchable

[col]

Not L-2

Batt[col]1[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0CC[col]2[col]0[col]1[col]0[col]0[col]1[col]1[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0CR[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]1[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0MM[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]1[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0Ort[col]0[col]1[col]0[col]1[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0Destructor/PP[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]1[col]0[col]1[col]0[col]0Axelrod/Ramus[col]0[col]0[col]1[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0ThAdmiral[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]0[col]1[col]0[col]0[col]0

From just the voting records alone, I have concluded that there is at least 1 scum amoung these 4 players: Urza, Destructor, CC, and CR. The wagon on Urza grew pretty quickly and for bad reasons, IMO. The main point was that Caboose was not active enough. For the wagon to build up quickly, I believe that scum either jumped on it, a few players made a bad town mistake, or a few players made a bad town mistake that might have resulted in a positive result.

From the table, I have noted that neither Urza or Mizzy have done anything to make it into the table. Are they scum trying not to do anything that might appear bad if/when the vote records are looked back on? It's all speculation, but later on I may go back and look at it more closely. CC has also stuck out. He placed CR at 4 votes (enough to be lynched at deadline) twice, yet had placed CR at under 4 votes once. I believe CC-scum could have been wagon-hopping, trying to get a good wagon to end the day. CC-scum could also have been bussing his scum buddy CR, but that is unlikely as CR was almost lynched and CC was on his wagon.

Thoughts, opinions, anything I missed on my inital read through?

[ortolan]

tbh, I'm not that sure how to interpret it and/or how useful it is

[CarnCarn]

From just the voting records alone, I have concluded that there is at least 1 scum amoung these 4 players: Urza, Destructor, CC, and CR.

Can you explain this in more detail? Especially since you later say:

From the table, I have noted that neither Urza or Mizzy have done anything to make it into the table.

Urza is scummy based on voting record, yet, he doesn't make it into the table of scummy voting analysis?

[Battousai]

Ort: The top half is all the vote counts (minus the first couple), whereas the table is shows a more visual interpretation of when someone was placed at 4 votes (needed to lynch at deadline), 5 votes, and unvoted from 5 votes and 4 votes. What's written under the quotes are the changes that happened in between vote counts.

CC: From the voting records (not the table), Caboose/Urza jumped from 2 votes to 5 votes in the span of 1 vote count. IIRC, the main reason was because Caboose was inactive, noncontributive. Therefore the three players that jumped on are listed. I then have to list Urza in the group because I'm basing the other three players on Urza being town and it being too quick (don't know how to explain this better. Since I'm basing one group on another factor, I have to add that factor to the group).

The table shows a more visual interpretation of when someone was placed at 4 votes (needed to lynch at deadline), 5 votes, and unvoted from 5 votes and 4 votes. Since I believe scum have two main goals: 1) The most important, don't get lynched. 2) Keep your partners alive, unless it would cause goal 1 to come into jeapardy; I think seeing who saved who from being the one lynched is worth pointing out.

[CarnCarn]

IIRC, the main reason was because Caboose was inactive, noncontributive. Therefore the three players that jumped on are listed. I then have to list Urza in the group because I'm basing the other three players on Urza being town and it being too quick (don't know how to explain this better. Since I'm basing one group on another factor, I have to add that factor to the group).

OK, I get this reasoning. Basically, the wagon on Urza built speed quickly (within one vote count). Urza is either town being wagoned by opportunistic scum, or he's scum whose wagon built quickly because it was all townies voting. The speed of the wagon being built could also indicate a lack of scum-bussing since scum generally want to protect partners and wouldn't jump on the wagon too quickly. So yeah, makes sense to think at least one of those 4 players is probably scum according to either of those scenarios.

[ortolan]

I'm not really sure that helps us if only "at least one of them are scum"- if you took any random 4 players in the game then on average one would be scum anyhow.

If some of those players get eliminated through lynches/nightkills later it will be easier to narrow it down, but I'm not sure this method is foolproof anyway.

[Mizzy]

Well, of course the method isn't foolproof, but what method is?

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

The deadline is coming up fast again in about 5 days, and I still very much like my ThAdmiral vote. He's staying under the radar throughout today and has not done much scumhunting since his unvote of destructor very early D2.

[ortolan]

Well, of course the method isn't foolproof, but what method is?

Well what method are you actually suggesting we should use then? Just find the scummiest of those four and lynch them?

[Mizzy]

Well what method are you actually suggesting we should use then? Just find the scummiest of those four and lynch them?

Either that or just find the scummiest and lynch them.

[ortolan]

So basically you're saying (like I did) that the vote analysis has no real effect

[Mizzy]

So basically you're saying (like I did) that the vote analysis has no real effect

Nothing has an effect if no one lets it have an effect. The best laid out case in the world can do nothing if it falls on deaf ears and even a cop can claim and point to a guilty verdict and have it be ignored. Nothing has any real effect unless we make it have effect.

That said, it's one of the best leads we have that's based on prior actions, IMO.

[Battousai]

Well I'm going to focus on those four. To start off, I'll order them from scummiest to least scummiest:

CarnCarn
ClockworkRuse
Destructor
Urza

CC- When lookng back at vote records, CC seemed to hop on and off all the major wagons. When the wagon seemed to plateau, CC seemed to jump off. At the end of yesterday, CC was on the wagon that would have been lynched until Ort unvoted minutes before deadline hit.

I think CC has the best chance to be scum and therefore...

Vote: CarnCarn

[CarnCarn]

Well I'm going to focus on those four. To start off, I'll order them from scummiest to least scummiest:

CarnCarn
ClockworkRuse
Destructor
Urza

CC- When lookng back at vote records, CC seemed to hop on and off all the major wagons. When the wagon seemed to plateau, CC seemed to jump off. At the end of yesterday, CC was on the wagon that would have been lynched until Ort unvoted minutes before deadline hit.

I think CC has the best chance to be scum and therefore...

Vote: CarnCarn

Wait... I was on a wagon that didn't lead to yesterday's lynch of a townie (in fact, I was pretty opposed to it, like you), who never even claimed a role, so I'm more likely to be scum for that?

Hopping on and off wagons is not a real scumtell at all, either. If anything, it shows active scumhunting, or just aggressive playstyle.

Also, can you point to specific examples of where I "jumped off" when wagons started to "plateau"? If you look closely enough, I actually unvoted when CR had 4 votes and Urza had 4 votes (making them "not lynchable" (at deadline) by your definition), so that's not hopping off when the wagons were stalling at all, since my unvotes were what apparently caused the stalling you're talking about.

[ThAdmiral]

Having a look at the vote counts from yesterday I noticed that two people, machiavellian-mafia and axelrod, were on the clockwork wagon at one point and ended up on the natirasha wagon.

Having read through mm's posts, I believe his reason for moving off clockwork is sound (i.e. that he had defended himself adequately), but his vote on nat (after having a vote on caboose/urza) is not really explained all that much.
It is only referenced once in post 362 in which he says this (bolding mine):

After re-examining recent events:

1. I like neither CarnCarn nor CR as a lynch. If a gun was pointed at me and I had to pick one out of these two, it would be CR for the information, but again, it would be a last resort.

2. Out of my three previous suspicions, ThAdmiral has improved the most, so I won't consider voting him.

I wouldn't mind voting for Uriel/Nat since Nat has done pretty much nothing since replacing.

But I still consider Caboose my top choice given his weak CarnCarn vote and the fact that he has conveniently disappeared again when my initial pressure on him wore off.

So my current voting plan is the following, ignoring game-changing things that might come up such as claims:

Keep vote on Caboose right now

If no one else votes Caboose at deadline -24 hours, I will vote Nat

If there is no significant wagon on Caboose or Nat by deadline -12 hours, I will vote CR.

while a fairly weak reason to have your vote end up on someone, I don't believe it is damning evidence.


Axelrod voted cr for a number of reasons, but mainly, it would seem, for information (as in pushing him to claim). He also stated that he was unsure unsure of clockwork because of previous games, and that he is not 100% happy with his clockwork vote but would rather that than a lurker.
I think this post (number 214) is quite uncommittal, and coupled with the call for a claim is slightly scummy in my eyes.

When natirasha enters the scene axelrod unvotes:

Yeah, I'm fairly well wary of Natirasha right about now. One post and he's off to quite a start. Thinking all the scum are on the CR wagon, but I'm townie (I'm on the CR wagon). Also has CarnCarn as "solidly town" (CarnCarn is on the CR wagon). Vote Mizzy (not on the CR wagon).

His predecessor was also entirely useless.

Unvote

I'm not sure what to do at the moment. I'm going to try to review some more, and then decide.

Two days later axelrod decides to vote for natirasha:

Well, we are quickly running out of time.

Natirasha has done nothing since coming in to make me think better about him than I did about uriel (which was not good).

He's make one very odd and self contradictory post and commented that

everyone

seems artificial.

I think I'd rather push this lynch than any other at the moment.

Vote: Natirasha

The highlighted line is worthy of note as axelod had not expressed any strong feelings about uriel except to say he was a "huge non-event" in 214 (which is the reason he got replaced and furthermore not a tell).

The final interesting post by axelrod is just before the lynch. At this point clockwork looked like he was going to be lynched.

Well, this will be good for some information at the very least.

This post is scummy in my eyes; it sounds like axelrod knew that clockwork would turn up town (thus the lynch would only be useful for its information), and it sounded like he was distancing himself from the lynch (or to be more accurate, since he wasn't on cr's wagon, reaffirming and furthering his distance from the lynch).

Thus I will

vote: axelrod

[CarnCarn]

LA until 1/7

[petroleumjelly]

Day Two Vote Count: #4

3 CarnCarn (destructor, Urzassedatives, Battousai)
1 Axelrod (ThAdmiral)
1 destructor (CarnCarn)
1 Mizzy (ortolan)
1 ThAdmiral (Machiavellian-Mafia)

With

10

alive, it takes

6

to lynch, and

4

to lynch at deadline! Deadline is January 8, 9:59 pm CDT.

Not Voting – 3 – Axelrod, ClockworkRuse, Mizzy

Mod Edit: Fixed.

[Battousai]

Well I'm going to focus on those four. To start off, I'll order them from scummiest to least scummiest:

CarnCarn
ClockworkRuse
Destructor
Urza

CC- When lookng back at vote records, CC seemed to hop on and off all the major wagons. When the wagon seemed to plateau, CC seemed to jump off. At the end of yesterday, CC was on the wagon that would have been lynched until Ort unvoted minutes before deadline hit.

I think CC has the best chance to be scum and therefore...

Vote: CarnCarn

Wait... I was on a wagon that didn't lead to yesterday's lynch of a townie (in fact, I was pretty opposed to it, like you), who never even claimed a role, so I'm more likely to be scum for that?

You were on a wagon in which I think that you thought was going to be the final wagon. This supports my reasoning (and is why I have it last in my reasonings) that you were trying really hard to get anybody lynched.

Hopping on and off wagons is not a real scumtell at all, either. If anything, it shows active scumhunting, or just aggressive playstyle.

That's a matter of opinion and circumstances. I think you were aggressive, yes, but I think your reason to be aggressive was to get a lynch.

Also, can you point to specific examples of where I "jumped off" when wagons started to "plateau"? If you look closely enough, I actually unvoted when CR had 4 votes and Urza had 4 votes

Which vote count was that?

(making them "not lynchable" (at deadline) by your definition), so that's not hopping off when the wagons were stalling at all, since my unvotes were what apparently caused the stalling you're talking about.

My reasonings were directly from the post counts that I posted. From those, when you made CR unlynchable, CR went from 4 to 5 votes through vote counts 6-8. In this I find it stalling as the momentum deterorated, especially in vote count 9 when MM jumps off which surely marked the end of the momentum. My whole case about you is really that you are really trying to get anybody lynched.

Don't have much time now, but with deadline looming I felt answering your defense deserved at least some time to avoid losing time later.

[ortolan]

Mod: are we allowed an extension?

The only viable (i.e. has enough votes) lynch atm is CarnCarn, and I'll have to re-read to decide whether it's worthwhile. Plus he's going away until a day before the deadline.

Does no-one else find Mizzy scummy? Surely there's a good chance that one of us is scum, considering how at-each-other's-throats we've been all game?

[Mizzy]

Does no-one else find Mizzy scummy? Surely there's a good chance that one of us is scum, considering how at-each-other's-throats we've been all game?

In my experience, townies can go at each others' throats as often (if not more often) than a scum and a town would.

[Mizzy]

I've been mulling over the options lately and with the deadline coming closer, I feel it's time to air out my opinions and make a vote.

I really took a closer look at destructor for a few reasons; firstly, he has been extremely quiet as of late and my impression has been that he's been more and more quiet since d1 ended. I know there were holidays involved, but it seems that there is a slow-down before the holidays and after them in terms of his involvement. Also, I'm not convinced of his version of the CC case and it feels like he's stopped scumhunting now that his vote is where it is.

I re-read destructor starting at the end of d1 and here are my thoughts:

desctructor Post #426:

Votes Nat and says "Because I don't know what else to do with my vote." That struck me as odd then and it strikes me as odd now, because it seems very listless and even potentially lazy and I don't really see those as destructor traits.

desctructor Post #432:

Asks what's wrong with the Nat vote when it's kind of obvious. No real content, just seems to be a chiming in. The mention of daytime abilities here kind of pings as something wary to me but I think it's my imagination.

desctructor Post #441:

Makes some assertions about CR's alignment based on D1's happenings and then votes CC without explaining why in the post.

desctructor Post #449:

He seems to be saying he's okay with a Nat mislynch because he was a) the least pro-town and b) could have been the traitor. I can understand a) but b) bothers me.

desctructor Post #450:

It could be me, but I'm reading a little aggressiveness in the two questions at the bottom of his post here. I just wanted to note them.

desctructor Post #455:

This post gives me a feeling of wishy-washiness. He's saying a lot of things like "I tend to agree" and a lot of "I don't know" and "we won't knows." It just feels very weak. Not bad per-say, but not as assertive as I am expecting from him.

desctructor Post #505:

More wishy-washiness and not a lot of real content here. A couple questions, one good point, but the rest is all very unsolid.

desctructor Post #519:

Finally, what looks like a meaty post. I actually I see I missed answering a question, so I will do that now:

desctructor

: I think the CC case has some merit but it took other people talking about CC in order for me to feel that way. I mostly have a gut feeling forming (which is new, by the way, as of re-reading to do this post) but that's not enough for me to act on.

And then there's nothing else from destructor that I saw (please tell me if I missed anything.)

It really feels to me like destructor either lost interest in things or just quit trying (a whole lot of lay-low vibes.) That bothers/worries me and those feelings are stronger than any feelings/vibes I have from anyone else. What I mean, is that CC I think may be a possibility but I really think the wagon there (with the exception of Bat) is a lazyish one. Possibly with some distancing going on.

I'm going to

vote destructor

because of the above items, even though I know it's not as solid of a case as I usually like. However, with the deadline coming in, I'd rather my vote be somewhere potentially helpful thank nowhere at all. I know the deadline is 3 days away but my posting/reading ability is sporadic at the moment with the weather and work and I'd rather not miss it.

[petroleumjelly]

Mod note: No extensions unless we need a replacement near deadline -- there may be players who

rely

on deadlines.