726 - Mind Screw Gaiden, Game Over

[Kairyuu]

@Illumina:

it looks like you reacted a little strongly to a perceived opportunity.

I smash everyone. You aren't a special case.

This is based on your post 114 where you cited a weak argument (ie, me misunderstanding you was patently impossible)

Well considering that, as I explained previously, both points (massclaim and G-Man) were mentioned in the same post, and the G-Man point was mentioned as a concession to the massclaim not being useful anymore, AND I specifically referenced the massclaim idea

in the same paragraph

as I claimed the G-Man info, then yes, I'm reasonably certain that you did not simply misinterpret.

then quickly made conclusions about me based on that, ALL of which painted me as scum

So what is mafia then? Is it no longer a game about drawing logical conclusions based on information available? The information said that you were either lying or being opportunistic. Both of those are scummy. Therefore, all of my conclusions pointed to your being scum. And then, with your contradictions and backpedaling, I have solidified my opinion on you as being scum.

As I defend myself, you continue to leave no room whatsoever for a simple misreading, and keep downplaying my explanation in favor of the options you want to showcase.

My options are based on logic. Your explanation is highly unlikely based on evidence, and therefore, since your argument is not logical, I am not going to cede my points.

Vote: Kairyuu.

Thanks for the OMGUS

[MafiaSSK]

Veerus doesn't really seem like scum to me.

[Illumina]

Kairyuu: seems like we're at an impasse as to whether my misreading you was possible or not. I still think your posts had an opportunistic ring to them, but I don't have any more evidence to cite. Seems like any further debate between us wouldn't be helpful.

I have another question, though: are you criticizing tajo because you consider his actions poor town play, or scummy play?

MSSK: For what reasons?

[MafiaSSK]

MSSK: For what reasons?

Its not that I see Veerus as town. Its just the fact that I can't really see Veerus as being scum. I'm getting no real read on him.

[Kairyuu]

@Illumina:

seems like we're at an impasse as to whether my misreading you was possible or not. I still think your posts had an opportunistic ring to them, but I don't have any more evidence to cite. Seems like any further debate between us wouldn't be helpful.

You see, I would agree, except that my main method of scumhunting is argument. If I can get a scum into a heated debate, then they will slip up and trap themselves. You know, like you did. You either cede the points or I keep pushing. Also, this seems like you are backing down to get out of the spotlight, which scum try to avoid usually.

I have another question, though: are you criticizing tajo because you consider his actions poor town play, or scummy play?

I'm criticizing him for hypocritical play. Hypocritical behavior is not always a scumtell in my book. It depends on the context and the consequences of the behavior. In this case, it is scummy, but not entirely because it is hypocritical. More because he proposed revealing more sensitive information that might exist in order to "semi-confirm" people. This, combined with the fact that he had just been criticizing people for doing the same thing, makes the underlying point look worse.

@Vi: Well, you got me on tajo's case with your question, so it's my turn to ask you something. What do you think of my arguments against Illumina?

[Vi]

I see what Illumina's side of it looks like, but of the options you listed in 114, it seems like Illumina fits under 2). Does that indicate scum, necessarily? Nyeh. However, there's a certain point where my disbelief breaks through - if Illumina got the note, and heard that many other people got the note, and sees someone pulling out traps that would just happen to work awesomely if that person had the same information he did, wouldn't this be an easy puzzle to put together?

Illumina's argument against you is essentially that you're shoving this case down his throat. Are you? Well

yes

. Does that necessarily make you scum? That would depend on how much you're rallying people to vote Illumina; which as far as I can see, you're not, so you're more likely not.

Tarhalindur's hate on Illumina isn't unfounded. Illumina hasn't posted solid opinions on anyone outside Kairyuu - just floating on by. Now you see where that Scummie nomination for Best SK came from

So in short, I think Illumina is one of the scummier people here at the moment, but I'm not about to call scum yet.

1) I'm getting increasingly skeptical of "didn't receive the mod note" as a strong indicator of being scum - it's really starting to remind me of my confirmation mechanic in Mind Screw 2, where confirmation method was largely independent of being town or scum. That doesn't necessarily mean it's completely useless - again, look at Mind Screw 2, where a higher percentage of players who confirmed by PM were scum - but I don't think it's a sure thing.

Who hasn't claimed to get the note (that hasn't retracted it)?

@mod: What's going on with Stef?

[Illumina]

Kairyuu: Trust me, I could refute your points for another couple pages -- but when it comes down to it, we're butting heads on a single issue, and inundating the thread with our debate probably isn't going to be helpful. Our points have pretty much been laid out, you're not asking any new questions. I see where you're coming from, though: so I'll restate what I've already said. [insert my earlier argument here]

Vi: You're just prejudiced because I won =P. Honestly, though, your points are reasonable, especially since my debate with Kairyuu has stalled.

So here's my take on things so far.

I find it plausible that Veerus assumed the presence of safeclaims. It could have been a slip on his part, sure, but I had a safeclaim in my last game run by Nat, and it seems like Veerus had similar experience in past Mind Screw games. I can see why people caught on to it, because it seems like a good tell -- but I'm assuming the presence of safeclaims too, until proven otherwise. So it's noteworthy, but a fairly neutral tell in my book.

hp[leaves] is an interesting situation. It's not totally unreasonable that the note was randomly distributed, but it's interesting that no one (presumably town-aligned) has admitted to also not having it from the start. I also tend to doubt that he suddenly thought to check it, although I'm not discounting that as a possibility.

My initial impression of the debate between tajo and Vi seems like two townies fighting, but I'll be taking a closer look at that.

I'm also unsatisfied with MSSK's reasoning. Specifically, his take on hp, the scuffle between Kairyuu and I, and the argument between populartajo and Vi. MSSK: pick two of those and tell me what you think, with at least four sentences for each.

[populartajo]

I'm criticizing him for hypocritical play. Hypocritical behavior is not always a scumtell in my book. It depends on the context and the consequences of the behavior. In this case, it is scummy, but not entirely because it is hypocritical. More because he proposed revealing more sensitive information that might exist in order to "semi-confirm" people. This, combined with the fact that he had just been criticizing people for doing the same thing, makes the underlying point look worse.

Reading this makes me think that either you are an idiot or you are scum. But I know you arent an idiot.

Vote: Kayruu.

[MafiaSSK]

I'm also unsatisfied with MSSK's reasoning. Specifically, his take on hp, the scuffle between Kairyuu and I, and the argument between populartajo and Vi. MSSK: pick two of those and tell me what you think, with at least four sentences for each.

Live with it. I comment on what I see as interesting in as many sentences as I like.

[Illumina]

Does that meann you don't find those discussions interesting?

[MafiaSSK]

Does that meann you don't find those discussions interesting?

Basically.

[Kairyuu]

@Illumina:

Trust me, I could refute your points for another couple pages

Let's just say that you are town. In this situation, when someone thinks you are scum based on a set of arguments that you are debating, it is in your best interest to continue to attempt to explain yourself and prove to your attacker that you are not scum. Therefore, you should want to continue the debate, fielding any now questions or comments that come up in the process. The fact that this is how I scumhunt doesn't really factor in here, because if you are town then you don't know if you can trust me.

However, if you are scum, then all of this attention is probably not what you want, and you have very good reason to cut it off right here. Besides, if you are scum, then you don't want other people agreeing with me and voting you as well.

Please provide me with a pro-town reason that you want to back down from this debate, keeping in mind that it is fully possible to do so while still commenting on other people.

inundating the thread with our debate probably isn't going to be helpful

I disagree from a personal standpoint, seeing as more debate means more positions taken by other people. More positions taken means more information for later that people can hunt through looking for scumtells. Plus, the way other people comment on our debate forces them to take a stand and support one of us. If/when one of us dies, these positions will be very useful for forging connections between players. Honestly, I can't see a downside.

@tajo:

Reading this makes me think that either you are an idiot or you are scum. But I know you arent an idiot.

Well then apparently I'm an idiot. However, you need to tell me

why

I'm an idiot, or I can't respond. Explain.

[Natirasha]

Vote count and prods tomorrow.

[Illumina]

Kairyuu

: I really did misread that one post. I'm sure I wasn't reading closely enough (though I wasn't technically skimming as I've read every post).

Also, I'm not backing down from any debate, I'm just not sure how I can persuade you. I think my misreading was perfectly plausible and didn't warrant the reaction it got from you, and you think my error was impossible to make and therefore faked. People misread posts all the time -- it's not a town or scum thing to do, it's a human thing to do.

And to be fair, it's plausible that you're overzealous town and not scum, since you've been pretty outspoken. Plus I consider hp[leaves] scummier at the moment, so I'll

Unvote: Kairyuu

and downgrade you to a FoS.

MSSK

: what does strike you as interesting so far, if not the things I cited? Is there any way I can get more than a few sentences?

[populartajo]

Kai, Ive explained 100 hundred times this and you still think that Im a hypocritical.
Pieces of information that DONT hurt town are TOTALLY DIFFERENT than pieces of information that DO hurt the town. Im criticizing the later, not the former.
Examples of pieces of information that DONT hurt the town are: the name of the ability, what kind of ability it is, its restriction, etc.
Examples of pieces of information that DO hurt the town are: telling the scum what name they shouldnt claim.
This isnt too hard, it is?
Your friend Vi should agree with me in this.

[MafiaSSK]

MSSK

: what does strike you as interesting so far, if not the things I cited? Is there any way I can get more than a few sentences?

You can see it by simply looking at my posts.

[Kairyuu]

@tajo: Then maybe you should have specified that when you made your suggestion, or perhaps during the 100 times you were explaining it. I understand your point now, and I have no problem with it. However, given the sudden "realization" that some of the players have had that they had the note, and Tar's comment on daytalk means that it is highly unlikely that the scum don't have the note, so I don't think that the information will lead to anything useful.

@MafiaSSK: Can you at least

try

to play to something other than your anti-town meta? Like, I dunno, playing to your win condition?

[veerus]

@tajo: Then maybe you should have specified that when you made your suggestion, or perhaps during the 100 times you were explaining it. I understand your point now, and I have no problem with it. However, given the sudden "realization" that some of the players have had that they had the note, and

Tar's comment on daytalk means that it is highly unlikely that the scum don't have the note

, so I don't think that the information will lead to anything useful.

Umm... what? Because scum likely have the ability to daytalk does NOT imply that they received the note.

[Kairyuu]

Ok veerus. Let's think about this for a second. We had people claim that they didn't get the note. These people, much later, decided to rescind that claim. The way that makes sense is if a single scum got the note, and they are allowed to daytalk. Therefore, when the other scum told them exactly what the note was, they knew to rescind their not having it status. The daytalk status plus the strange fipflopping of whether people did or didn't have the role

does

imply that the scum received the note. Specifically that only one of them did.

[MafiaSSK]

@MafiaSSK: Can you at least

try

to play to something other than your anti-town meta? Like, I dunno, playing to your win condition?

I shall attempt it.

[Kairyuu]

Thank you. That is all I ask. I know that Nat can be a rather good player when he wants to, so I was hoping you could be persuaded as well. I'm glad I was right.

[Vi]

Pieces of information that DONT hurt town are TOTALLY DIFFERENT than pieces of information that DO hurt the town. Im criticizing the later, not the former.
Examples of pieces of information that DONT hurt the town are: the name of the ability, what kind of ability it is, its restriction, etc.
Examples of pieces of information that DO hurt the town are: telling the scum what name they shouldnt claim.
This isnt too hard, it is?
Your friend Vi should agree with me in this.

When did I turn into Mr. Rogers?
Nonetheless, given that this game has plagiarized the Mind Screw name, I would say that the name of the ability is NOT a good thing to claim. In addition helping Town, claiming what kind of ability you have can also help scum, its restriction can help scum too. Further, claiming any of these D1 is no good in most cases.
Nitpicking aside, I believe that the G-man claims today were inevitable. You're welcome to criticize how it was revealed that everyone was talking about the same thing - which you are. So yes, I agree with you.

Considering I sparked this argument in 94, I'll continue it.

1) If I had information regarding that someone from somewhere is antitown, I simply dont share it in the thread. Someone though it was a good idea. I think it was stupid. Who was the first to post that?
2) Maybe scum cant daytalk and scum number 1 who prob get the note used that as a way to tell their scumpartner from HalfLife about it. Anything is possible here.
3) Meh, Ive been thinking lately that our friend from HalfLife is neutral or selfalligned, prob SK.
4) Now, what Im proposing is that we use our information to semiconfirm people, something very similar to what hp just did some posts ago.
5) Of course all is shit if scum did get the note.
6) So, where am I being hypocrite?

1) veerus (58) for what it's worth.
2) Reread what you just said - one scumpartner GOT the note, the other DIDN'T. Doesn't that outrightly invalidate the entire theory right there?
3) Does that change anything?
4) How on earth do you count that as hp "clearing" himself? He said "oh wait, I agree with what everyone else said".
5) Well you've made it seem like you'll believe anything at this point (see 4) and 2) ). You're shooting holes in your own theory, which makes me wonder why you're making it in the first place.
6) Hypocrite = contradictions. So see above.

-----

I don't think the Kairyuu vs. Illumina argument has any remaining merit to it the way it's being expressed. At this point Kairyuu is justifying beating a dead horse (and attempting to put it in a noose) with playstyle. This is effectively what he's saying here--

You see, I would agree, except that my main method of scumhunting is argument. If I can get a scum into a heated debate, then they will slip up and trap themselves. You know, like you did. You either cede the points or I keep pushing. Also, this seems like you are backing down to get out of the spotlight, which scum try to avoid usually.

"I would agree that this is over nothing, BUT for the sake of argument, let's assume I don't."

Counterpoint:

it's interesting that no one (presumably town-aligned) has admitted to also not having

[the note]

from the start.

Didn't you say you didn't have it? (Isn't that how this fight started anyway?)

-----

I see. So Tar, your information is similar to mine? I suspect you may be who I am lookin for. I will origin claim if you do, but I would request that you go first.

Something I saw while I was rereading. I don't see how this makes sense now that (presumably) we know what the information is.

Thank you. That is all I ask. I know that Nat can be a rather good player when he wants to, so I was hoping you could be persuaded as well. I'm glad I was right.

You're going waaaaaaay too soft on SSK here. Promise everything, deliver nothing, etc.

-----

@SSK: Why shouldn't I vote you?

-----

Cool people to lynch:
*Kairyuu
*tajo
*

(Your name could go here! Apply now!)

------

@mod: Break out the prodstick.

[populartajo]

1) veerus (58) for what it's worth.
2) Reread what you just said - one scumpartner GOT the note, the other DIDN'T. Doesn't that outrightly invalidate the entire theory right there?
3) Does that change anything?
4) How on earth do you count that as hp "clearing" himself? He said "oh wait, I agree with what everyone else said".
5) Well you've made it seem like you'll believe anything at this point (see 4) and 2) ). You're shooting holes in your own theory, which makes me wonder why you're making it in the first place.
6) Hypocrite = contradictions. So see above.

Excuse me for not being as intelligent as you, Xi. Im just taking in count all the possibilities. This is a theory and probs that could have happened. Note the use of words like "maybe" and "prob".
Do you think that hp has more probs of being scum or town?
Kin, reasons?

[Vi]

Intelligence and taking all the ideas into account doesn't have anything to do with 4). Further, I'm not sure I buy that you were taking in all the possibilities, because doing so just means you're not saying

anything

committal because it's based on stuff we frankly cannot know. (Except that you think hp has the note, against your own logic.)

Re: hp [leaves] - Not enough data. However, the case against him is primarily based on not having the note at first, and being tipped off as to what it should say later. If you are scum, he is a likely partner.

You are most likely scum if scum did not get the note.
Kairyuu is most likely scum otherwise.
Do I know which is the case? No, but as I'm not convinced of your logic as of yet, I'm not moving my vote.

Xi

I'm not asian enough. Though I like being able to use this smiley → ⌐.⌐

[populartajo]

Intelligence and taking all the ideas into account doesn't have anything to do with 4). Further, I'm not sure I buy that you were taking in all the possibilities, because doing so just means you're not saying

anything

committal because it's based on stuff we frankly cannot know. (Except that you think hp has the note, against your own logic.)

Re: hp [leaves] - Not enough data. However, the case against him is primarily based on not having the note at first, and being tipped off as to what it should say later. If you are scum, he is a likely partner.

You are most likely scum if scum did not get the note.
Kairyuu is most likely scum otherwise.
Do I know which is the case? No, but as I'm not convinced of your logic as of yet, I'm not moving my vote.

Xi

I'm not asian enough. Though I like being able to use this smiley → ⌐.⌐

You are quick to get to conclusions when not even the half of people are posting here, arent you, Ti?
We have 2 probs here.
The first one is that scum did get the note.
The second one is that scum didnt get the note.
How the confirmation of one can prove Im scum?