Mini 718: DICTATOR Mafia {Game over!}

[MonkeyMan576]

Hey, I'm the Dictator.

And I'd rather not wait for some replacement to come into the game with his finger on the big button that says "excecute now!" becuase there are a lot of stupid people who might replace in.

Bingo.

I don't know exactly why Der Hammer overthrew Jebus, but I didn't have a great feeling about him either (see below).

Day 1 thoughts were that SlySly was breadcrumbing PR by suggesting PR claiming, etc. I thought the arguments against him were pretty crappy, especially by MonkeyMan and Gorrad, but Moratorium and Jazzmyn strike me as off, too.

I don't like Jebus' method of choosing who to execute - it seems like too much desire to not want responsibility for the execution (however, it is consistent with what he said during the "campaigning" Dictatoraton), and possibly setting up others as execution bait the next day.

Also, the rotating Dictatorship idea is a stupid, stupid, STUPID idea and something I think scum latched on to very quickly (although it was first suggested by Occum). By suggesting a rotation scheme, and disguising it as a protown policy, the scum make it much more likely that they would eventually get a shot at the Dictatorship (excuse the pun).

A bit more detailed analysis of my most suspicious players (as I was reading through the thread):

Moratorium:

Suggests campaigning for Dictatorship D1 is scummy, which is craplogic. Used to in a failed attempt to paint Occam as scummy. Why is it craplogic?
1. If you're scum, you want to be Dictator D1 to get an extra kill.
2. If you're town, you want to be Dictator D1 to prevent scum from being Dictator.
A complete null-tell that was blown out of proportion.
Supports the rotating dictatorship idea, saying:

A rotating dictator system might mitigate the risk of electing scum to the dictator position,

A null-tell by itself, but with other things, it suggests possible scum.
Makes a comment about roflcopter votefishing; orangepenguin is completely right that this game's Dictatorthon was completely unsuited to rofl's playstyle.
Question, though:

And why did the conversation about roflcopter/Jazzmyn completely die? Just because he was replaced by a more competent player? I just completed a game where town won because I called out the replacement player based on the actions of who he replaced.

What are you talking about? When was Jazzmyn replaced? What was the discussion you are referring to?
However, he steps up his scumhunting in a major way on D2 and this leads me to a net-town view of Moratorium. Examples:
- He probes the issue of why Jebus is suspicious/isn't suspicious to people, and summarizes their reactions.
- His Player-by-Player analysis is quite good.

Jebus:

His Dictator policies are scummy, but not really enough to merit an outright overthrow, tbh. I don't like Gorrad's defense of this, but that is a different case. Overall, Jebus is really just neutral/slightly scummy to me.

Gorrad:

One of the two scummiest players. I don't like his reach cases on SlySly's breadcrumbing. Looks like scum leaping in for the kill on a Doctor. The only WIFOM here is that he's the one afraid of an "unNKable Doc" because he's scum. Yes, he voted to elect SlySly D1, but is during the random stage (pointless).
Makes a comment about Masons not necessarily being town, which is true, but irrelevant to the point SS was making. SS was clearly talking about Masons that know each other as town (which are unlikely to exist as roles in this game of Dictators, anyway). His real motivation seems to be to prevent a confirmed townie from getting into the Dictorship by using craplogic/irrelevant logic.
Also, note how he thought SlySly's overthrow attempt was "rather mad", but today he supports the overthrow of Jebus quite early by Der Hammer.
Oh yes, asks SlySly for flavor regarding his doctor claim. Gosh,

obvscum.

Randomly links to a Wikipedia article about Garibaldi; not exactly sure what to make of that, tbh. One of the more obscure figures, in comparison to Genghis, Saddam, and Pinochet (not to mention my own role), so could be a fakeclaim if it's a claim at all.
I'm not sure why he keeps bringing up the issue of the unNKable doc. What are you talking about, Gorrad? That would only have happened if SlySly were elected Dictator, and even then, knowing the mod, it would not be foolproof at all for the dictator to just shield every night.
I think all of this together is enough to make Gorrad a likely scum.

MonkeyMan576:

The other really scummy player in this game. His first couple posts are just stating the obvious, appearing to look town without trying too hard (READ: saying politically correct stuff):

I want to hear a little bit more from people before electing. If we elect mafia as dictator we would be in trouble.

Then, very strange reasoning that doesn't add up:

Elect:

ROFLCOPTOR

I don't know either that well, but I've seen ROFL a little bit more, and I want to know how Occum handles an opposition if elected. And, as I said before, I'm not sure Occum is town. I'm not sure ROFL is either, but giving one person too much power early in the game is not a good idea, I think.

How is electing rofl not giving too much power to one person but electing occum is?
Then, he unvotes roflcopter for a bit before he decides to revote him. NEVER does his explain why he likes electing roflcopter, while he explicitly states that "Occum has not given him a compelling reason to elect him." Then,

I concur with OP. And Occam's behavior is looking scummier, I don't like it when someone campaigns so hard it looks like a grab for power.

Vote: ROFLCOPTER

Campaigning for Dictator is not scummy, as explained above. And besides, roflcopter was also campaigning for Dictator, just not through the Dictatorathon.
Followed by series of fence-sitting posts, not liking rofl or Occum for dictator, but never saying why.
Then,

Electing Cal is a little bit like GWB choosing Cheney for VP after he was running the VP search in 2000. And I don't want Occum or ROFL So...

Elect: Gorrad

He seems to be acting the most reasonable at this point and has some mafia knowledge.

Again, the lack of any reasoning whatsoever, except that he has "some mafia knowledge." Wow. How does that make him more trustworthy/town?
Followed by complete misrep:

To me, this game is exactly opposite of how a game of mafia is usually played. Usually you want to make certain that you are voting scum, in this game I think it is crucial for us to elect a town dictator in order to get the town win.

I think, if there is a cop in this game, the cop should claim and we should elect him dictator and have him stay dictator as long as possible.

FOS: SlySly

Power Role-Fishing. I think there's much better options than having our cop claim.

Then states something that he's NOT pursuing:

I think there's much better options than having our cop claim.

Such as?

Electing the most pro-town player dictator.

Then, he presents a silly fallacy:

We need our best(or at least a good) townie to be dictator, if our worst player ended up being cop, we'd be screwed.

Yeah, because these things are guaranteed to be exclusive of each other and determing "best townie" is so easy to define

Well, my criteria was to eliminate the players I knew I didn't want elected, and from the remaining people that ran pick the one who seemed most competent and pro town.

Again, the lack of reasons/details. His criteria is simply what he knows. Strange.
Then this post:

FOS: Gebus

Probably not the best strategic move FOSing the Dictator, but he's questioned my perfectly reasonable suspicions of Occum's behavior, which was less thinking he was scummy and more not wanting him to be dictator,

and then saying that it was okay to trade a doctor death for a scum death. That would only be a last resort, after we were absolutely sure we could not get the scum without a townie death.

The bolded parts are what concern me. This is blatant misrep on his part. Jebus never suggested what he's saying, exactly. Trading a doc for a scum is fine for town, IMO, because the loss hurts scum more. Plus, no one advocated doing this

instead of

hunting scum the old-fashioned way. This was just an offshoot from a point brought up about doc fakeclaims.

So, that's what I have for now, and should provide new material for discussion.

Any other questions for Der Hammer? Please post them/point me to them.

Saying that we need a good townie to be dictator is definatley not a fallacy. I was merely stating that we don't want someone that is anti-town to be dictator.

My criteria being what I know is strange? What else would I have to base my vote on?

I stand by that trading a scum for a townie is not an ideal scenario for the town. You never know when a single vote might be needed to win a game, so every effort should be made to perserve every pro-town player.

[CarnCarn]

Saying that we need a good townie to be dictator is definatley not a fallacy. I was merely stating that we don't want someone that is anti-town to be dictator.

Your language there is vague at times. You say good townie/best townie and then vote Gorrad with the stated reason that he "has some mafia knowledge." Now, you say that good townie means someone who is protown.

My criteria being what I know is strange? What else would I have to base my vote on?

What could you really know about someone's alignment on D1 if you're town? What could you know about someone that would make you eliminate them from your list of players you don't want elected Dictator?

I stand by that trading a scum for a townie is not an ideal scenario for the town. You never know when a single vote might be needed to win a game, so every effort should be made to perserve every pro-town player.

Yes of course, but townies, especially vanillas, are meant to die. If we can narrow down the pool of possible scum, it's worth it, because we could stand to lose much more than just 1 townie, as we did yesterday/last night, anyway.

And there are other points about you that you have not responded to at all.

[MonkeyMan576]

Your language there is vague at times. You say good townie/best townie and then vote Gorrad with the stated reason that he "has some mafia knowledge." Now, you say that good townie means someone who is protown.

I meant that Gorrad seems to be using his knowledge in a pro-town way. And not seeming to power hungry. And yes, I think a good townie is someone that is protown.

What could you really know about someone's alignment on D1 if you're town? What could you know about someone that would make you eliminate them from your list of players you don't want elected Dictator?

I don't know, it's called a guess based on behavior.

Yes of course, but townies, especially vanillas, are meant to die. If we can narrow down the pool of possible scum, it's worth it, because we could stand to lose much more than just 1 townie, as we did yesterday/last night, anyway.

He didn't say that trading a vanilla townie for scum was acceptable, AFAIK he said trading any townie for any scum is acceptable. If you could trade a vanilla townie for scum, in a small game, that might be worth doing, but not without exhausting all other options first.

[Moratorium]

And why did the conversation about roflcopter/Jazzmyn completely die? Just because

he

was replaced by a more competent player? I just completed a game where town won because I called out the replacement player based on the actions of who he replaced.

What are you talking about? When was Jazzmyn replaced? What was the discussion you are referring to?

Roflcopter is the "he" I'm talking about, not Jazzmyn.

And there was some very brief discussion after roflcopter left about the fact that his abruptly asking for replacement and leaving immediately after being called out was scummy. Some have dismissed it, but I don't agree.

[Moratorium]

Also, let me interrupt you two throwing each other under the bus for just a second and get back to the central idea that Der Hammer/CarnCarn set off everyone's alarm bells with.

CarnCarn, why did your predecessor overthrow Jebus so quickly and without explanation? You know what your role is, surely you can piece together the logic of such a move? Unfortunately for you, stating "hey, sorry man, it wasn't me, please ignore everything that occurred previous to my glorious arrival" just won't cut it. It is the principal reason of your suspicion, you can't just wish it away.

MonkeyMan576, even though it's probably your scumbuddy asking you all these questions, CarnCarn did bring up several issues that you are currently ignoring. If you only selectively address issues that you think you can give adequate responses to, and ignore the others, you become all the more suspicious.

[Moratorium]

One more thing:

MonkeyMan576

, please overthrow.

You too,

Gorrad

.

You too,

Jazzmyn

.

[CarnCarn]

^^Uhh, what?

[CarnCarn]

I think I see the reasoning behind this, but why do you want to push the overthrows to a near 100% success rate, in case they're actually not scum?

CarnCarn, why did your predecessor overthrow Jebus so quickly and without explanation? You know what your role is, surely you can piece together the logic of such a move? Unfortunately for you, stating "hey, sorry man, it wasn't me, please ignore everything that occurred previous to my glorious arrival" just won't cut it. It is the principal reason of your suspicion, you can't just wish it away.

I said the suspicions weren't worth it. There is nothing about my role that gives me any more insight into why Der Hammer overthrew.

[Korlash]

Yeah Mor, we don't need to overthrown right yet. Carn looks to be stable so theres no need to have everyone overthrow.

Not sure if you answered this yet carn, but why did you have an increased chance to overthrow today?

[MonkeyMan576]

I want to see what Carn does before overthrowing...

[Moratorium]

orangepenguin is completely right that this game's Dictatorthon was completely unsuited to rofl's playstyle.

I am not a veteran to this site, so I don't have a tremendous amount of meta-read on players yet. If you could please elaborate, what of roflcopter's playstyle is incompatible with the Dictatorthon, or this particular game of Mafia?

[CarnCarn]

Not sure if you answered this yet carn, but why did you have an increased chance to overthrow today?

Role ability.

I am not a veteran to this site, so I don't have a tremendous amount of meta-read on players yet. If you could please elaborate, what of roflcopter's playstyle is incompatible with the Dictatorthon, or this particular game of Mafia?

I've been in a couple of games with roflcopter (ongoing). Can't saying anything about the games, but he's someone who plays very intuitively and spontaneously. The Dictatoraton was not scumhunting (it wasn't mafia, as he said) and he got bored/frustrated. The way I read it is that he wanted to move on to playing mafia and not get caught up in all the "tasks" Caligulaph put forth (and god were his posts a chore to read). If anything, it's a slight town-tell to me about rofl because he earnestly seemed concerned to look for scum instead of pursue a dictator competition.

[Korlash]

Role ability.

That doesn't say much...

[CarnCarn]

Role ability.

That doesn't say much...

It says everything. My character has that ability (increased overthrow chances).

[orangepenguin]

Role ability.

That doesn't say much...

It says everything. My character has that ability (increased overthrow chances).

Did you steal Jebus' ability to overthrow, as part of your ability? Or do you just have it automatically?

[CarnCarn]

It's an innate ability, if you will.

[Korlash]

So it's not connected to Jebus at all... ?

[Gorrad]

What was that about assuming a role? I never did that. If the doctor was made dictator, he would be essentially unNKable. I don't know where you're pulling that BS from, Moratorium.

I've found you pretty null-tell for a while, but I do not like your PBPA. Especially the end where you try and fit it into an I've-figured-everything-out setting. It's like you sculpted your list so it would fit your perfect model. That's crap. Make a proper scumlist if you want, but you have NOT broken the game this early.

[CarnCarn]

So it's not connected to Jebus at all... ?

No, it's not. You're doing a lot of fishing for something I'm not quite sure about.

[Moratorium]

I've found you pretty null-tell for a while, but I do not like your PBPA. Especially the end where you try and fit it into an I've-figured-everything-out setting. It's like you sculpted your list so it would fit your perfect model. That's crap. Make a proper scumlist if you want, but you have NOT broken the game this early.

That'd be pretty awesome if I did.

I've made my case. I've brought to light a few interesting things. People get to read my opinion on players, and agree or not.

Make yours.

[Jebus]

For you, CarnCarn

Click on the link above. This goes for MonkeyMan, Gorrad, and especially CarnCarn.

Responses from all please. I want them specific.

And Gorrad, post your case. You said you didn't have it at the time I asked it earlier, I hope you have it now.

[CarnCarn]

Jebus, I answered/commented on all of those things. Please let me know if there is something I need to elaborate on.

[Korlash]

No, it's not. You're doing a lot of fishing for something I'm not quite sure about.

I'm fishing becuase it's a question that has been asked and for the most part ingorned for a while now. Jebus's overthrow was stolen and Hammer's overthrow was "doubled"... You add in Hammer's quick overthrow and people tend to get nervous about it.

[Gorrad]

Sick day = readthrough!

CASE ON JEBUS:
1. Lurks through D1

2. Sides with me against SlySly d1, then condemns me for it d2

3. In abovementioned condemnation, brings up several points that hey, might have been a LOT more useful d1 when it was actually an issue whether to kill SlySly. Seriously, if you were so against my points, why'd you say nothing when they were relevant?

4. The whole one-town-for-one-scum argument. Let me say once more, though I've said this many times before. Usually, one town is, in fact, a good trade for one scum. But there was an opportunity for us to have an un-NKable doc. That's something I'd NEVER want to go against as scum. So yeah, bad trade.

There. Froh? Alles gut? Ball's in your court.

[Jebus]

I did side with you against SlySly D1, and I don't think I ever went against it. If I did, it was how you did it, and not that you did it - SlySly was incredibly scummy.

As for the doc for scum thing - the un-NKable doc isn't worth much more than a scum player - in fact, I'd call it even. It's the same as having one less player with a doc, so essentially it's one pro-town and a doc for scum, which is still pretty good.

Excuse me if that part was unclear, my brain is fried at the moment >.<