Mafia 86 - mafia.gif - Game Over!

[ShadowGirl]

@LF: Fair enough, I suppose about you believing that I'm scum either way. I have nothing further to comment on until you reply to my previous points.

Is the point against spring basically that she was lurking + meta of her lurking as scum?

[massive]

I've officially replaced you, i'm doing you a favour.

Sorry, just havin' a bit of fun after all the Grandpa nonsense.

I suppose I'll ask this question first: at the time, how likely did you think I was scum?

I've had a very strong scum vibe on you since day one. And since my last post, it doesn't seem like you're trying to deny it -- more like you're trying to figure out which kind of scum we think you are.

unvote
vote ShadowGirl

[ShadowGirl]

I have nothing further to comment on until you reply to my previous points.

I'm waiting for LF to respond to my points so I have something to respond to. I don't believe you've given me anything to respond to at the moment, other then gut vibes, which I'm not quite how I'm supposed to refute that.

Also, what does it matter to me what kind of scum you think I am? What I'd really meant to say was if without the connection to Stef whether I was still scum or not - not Japanese, but he answered my question anyway.

When is our deadline? Four, five days from now?

[LlamaFluff]

When is our deadline? Four, five days from now?

Too soon, I have three games deadlined within two days of eachother. Will respond tonight no matter what.

@EA/BA - Will you consider moving your vote when we get closer to deadline?

[BlakAdder]

I will move my vote if:
1. Deadline is dangerously close and there is a tie.
2. A case that I think is better comes up.
I don't want to be asked to move my vote again.

[ShadowGirl]

Deadline is in four days (I believe) and I think we're tied for votes.

[BlakAdder]

mod: vote count please, so I can be sure?

[ShadowGirl]

I'm pretty sure. I was at 3, then massive voted me. You're at four.

[Claus]

Mod's Hint of the day:

Don't pick on Midgets

Vote Count!

Blak Adder 4 - Farside, Springlulaby, ShadowGirl, Sierra
ShadowGirl 4 - The Fonz, Llama Fluff, Jebus, Massive
SL 2 - BA, Erratus Apathos

Not Voting: Jahudo,

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

First yes, you seemed to be trying to defend Stef by firstly trying to counter the line of questioning CKD was starting, and secondly by trying to calm him down instead of taking a strong stance on the conversation that was occuring. Your post was more on a way to ignore the entire string of events, you completely fence sat on if Stef was scum, and tried to calm him down. Also nice WIFOM defense at the end there.

I had no problems with the line of questioning (did I say anything of the sort?) and as to why I didn't discourage it. Having no prior playing experience with Stef, I didn't know if this was his typical behaviour (taking things so hard and all). As well, why shouldn't I calm him down? The way he was playing was detrimental to town. About the last part (as I explained to Jahudo) :

Of course, it's still a possiblity - I just meant in terms of percentages that it's more likely someone in such a case wouldn't have.

In your seventh post you push on CKD for overreacting towards Stef. In this post there is zero sense of encouraging the line of questioning towards Stef, but more of a defense of Stef given that you are trying not to counter the questions but the questioner. You also really didn’t pay a whole lot of attention to Stef apart from trying to get him to calm down, especially alignment wise. You mention him a few times near the end of the day but most of the attention you gave him was related to the question.

First of all, I dont see how someone claiming vanilla the way tajo did can ever be seen as a nulltell, hell even if someone like Nat did that I would be wanting them lynched. Now you are pulling the "well I was right" card on tajo flipping town, which I dont think surprised you. What you did do though is use Stef to incriminate Tajo in your 11th post. Since you saw tajo who you called town, slightly scummy for defending stef, who you also saw as town. In your 14 though, you change this around, and are trying to make Stef scum because tajo is scum, which gave you reasoning not to carry through with any case on Stef day 2. Much like BA was accused of doing.

As I've said before, I've played with Tajo before so I wasn't completely surprised with his theatrics, so no, I wasn't surprised that he flipped town. I didn't view Stef as town (and have not said so) - I viewed him as neutral - his behaviour was either scummy or very anti-town. As well, am I not allowed to change my views after a page and a half and more information has come to light? As well, my fourteenth dealt less with Stef-Tajo scum and more on the possiblity of Tajo being scum by himself (being that he was deflecting attention back onto stef).

Can you link me to the game or games where Tajo claimed vanilla town on page five and really was vanilla town? This view on him seem to be entirely meta based, and I really don’t want to get into the whole “antitown meta” argument in another game right now. If someone is scummy you lynch them. Now, you say that you thought Tajo was town given the way he played. You call him scummy in your 11 and 14 though, so I don’t get those conflicting reads. Also in your 12 you called Tajos move WIFOM, you never backed it up with a meta until just recently.

Now you are trying to explain the Stef-Tajo thing as Tajo was more likely scum by himself. This again goes against multiple things that you have just said because I thought Tajo-town was not at all surprising to you. Guess not. Also Stef-Tajo connection was looked at and you thought Tajo was scum deflecting onto his scum buddy? Getting really confused about your Tajo reads throughout the day, and trying to find out what they were makes me realize how much you ignored the whole thing.

You implied this paring multiple times (your 11 and 14 are the best examples of this)

Implied, yes. Not say 'if one flips scum the other must be'. If one flipped scum I would certainly take a closer look at the other, no doubt - but that did not gurantee the other to be scum.

This is different then what BA did, and what you voted him for how? I kind of wish Stef would of got vigged N2 instead so I could of seen you completely ignore Stef given that Tajo flipped town.

@BA - I will stop pestering you for now but I would much rather see SG lynched before you so when you arent doing anything to stop it im going up the walls a bit.

@Jahudo - Can you just vote BA already? Its beyond obvious that you are planning to.

[The Fonz]

BlakAdder's seeming unwillingness to shift his vote to save himself is bizarre, but town-looking.

[BlakAdder]

Okay, then. In order to prevent a stall due to the tied vote, I will

unvote, vote: ShadowGirl

If anyone gives my flack for this, I'm finding out where they live and tearing their lungs out through their ass.

[Jahudo]

Has SG claimed in an earlier post? If not she should probably do it now.

[ShadowGirl]

BlakAdder's seeming unwillingness to shift his vote to save himself is bizarre, but town-looking.

My thoughts, pretty much. I'm more inclined to vote LF, really. I'm not really quite so sure we have a SK and not a second vig.

Anyway, since I'm at

L-1.

(Just in case anyone tries to pull the 'accidental hammer' thing.)

I'm a cop. I haven't breadcrumbed anywhere.

On night one, I investigate armlx: innocent.
Night two, Tar : (No result, he died.)
Night three : BA (I was blocked.)

I'll reply to LF later, after I eat lunch.

[The Fonz]

Yeah, she's scum.

Confirm vote: Shadowgirl

A cop with absolutely no useful results whatsoever? Pull t'other one.

[Jahudo]

I haven't breadcrumbed anywhere.

On night one, I investigate armlx: innocent.
Night two, Tar : (No result, he died.)
Night three : BA (I was blocked.)

Why did you choose these people specificially? Particularly why did you choose armix and not mention him day 2 or 3 as looking town?

Conveniently a roleblocker, hascow, was killed night 3. His power could've gone through I think, but we don't know for sure who he targeted.

I don't know what to think of this claim yet but we should give it some thought at least. Can anyone find posts that would indicate SG wanting to investigate armix, Tar or BA?

[LlamaFluff]

BlakAdder's seeming unwillingness to shift his vote to save himself is bizarre, but town-looking.

My thoughts, pretty much. I'm more inclined to vote LF, really. I'm not really quite so sure we have a SK and not a second vig.

Anyway, since I'm at

L-1.

(Just in case anyone tries to pull the 'accidental hammer' thing.)

I'm a cop. I haven't breadcrumbed anywhere.

On night one, I investigate armlx: innocent.
Night two, Tar : (No result, he died.)
Night three : BA (I was blocked.)

I'll reply to LF later, after I eat lunch.

Wow, kill the lying scum now.

Not only did you investigate armlx (obv town N1), Tar (obv town N2), BA (got "blocked"), but you also never breadcrumbed, go no result when a player died (which I dont believe for a second) and are not faction specific?

One cop who could get a guilty on what is looking like nearly half of the game is so fabricated its not even funny.

[ShadowGirl]

Your mish mash game happened quite a bit after I joined your mish mash game, Jahudo. ;P And it was partially because you're in this game that if you were scum you would easily catch onto my breadcrumbs, and well, I was kind of betting on being alive. I believe I've only be NKed once on the first night, but I was town that time too. I always seem to be kept around for this sole reason - I'm a fairly easy lynch. As far as not breadcrumbing, I didn't breadcrumb as doctor in Open 70 either.

Armlx seemed very pro-town to me, and such is this case that I usually turn the other way - so I figured I'd ensure that he was on town's side. I'd intended to investigate BA, but changed my mind at the last minute.

In my notes I see something about a possible Tar-Sierra team because of post 396, but I didn't elaborate on much else.

And then I decided to investigate BA on night three, partially because of all his oppurtunistic voting, and the fact that my gut is usually half right.

As far as 'not getting a result' I was basically just told to go look at the thread and see his alignment there, which I consider not getting a result.

Not faction specific? What kind of point is that? I didn't realize we were playing in some topsy turvy game where pro-town roles had their alignments flipped.

[LlamaFluff]

I always seem to be kept around for this sole reason - I'm a fairly easy lynch. As far as not breadcrumbing, I didn't breadcrumb as doctor in Open 70 either.

Being lynchable does not make you town. Having not breadcrumbed in a past game does not mean we should let that part of a claim go.

Armlx seemed very pro-town to me, and such is this case that I usually turn the other way - so I figured I'd ensure that he was on town's side. I'd intended to investigate BA, but changed my mind at the last minute.

Dont pro-town players usually get, you know, nightkilled? Also as I have pointed out before, you had similar thought processes on Stef-Tajo as BA.

In my notes I see something about a possible Tar-Sierra team because of post 396, but I didn't elaborate on much else.

So you investigated Tar based on interactions with Sierra who as far as I can tell you never got a single read on?

And then I decided to investigate BA on night three, partially because of all his oppurtunistic voting, and the fact that my gut is usually half right.

What about how nearly everyone was in agreement that a vig should kill BA? Did that just get ignored?

As far as 'not getting a result' I was basically just told to go look at the thread and see his alignment there, which I consider not getting a result.

Investigative roles should ALWAYS get a result. It helps the player with any insanity issues they might have.

Not faction specific? What kind of point is that? I didn't realize we were playing in some topsy turvy game where pro-town roles had their alignments flipped.

So you would get a guilty on any Jap mafia, and Greek mafia and the SK? If it is a 4-4-1-1 setup and you got guilties on all mafia, that would make your role so unbelieveably powerful, especially with the watcher and doctor that it just isnt feasable. Maybe,

maybe

if this was faction specific it would be believeable, but it isnt. So it isnt.

Jahudo should either hammer or express belief in his next post.

[Jahudo]

Your mish mash game happened quite a bit after I joined your mish mash game, Jahudo. ;P And it was partially because you're in this game that if you were scum you would easily catch onto my breadcrumbs, and well, I was kind of betting on being alive.

The mish mash game started on Nov. 7th and ended Dec. 12th.
That places this game at the start of Day 3, which started Oct. 27th.

I didn't join the game until Dec. 13th so me catching your breadcrumbs would not have applied in November if you wanted to breadcrumb your role or that armix was town. I don't think that not breadcrumbing in that situation is a scum tell, however.

Also of note: hascow was pretty suspicious of SG when he replaced in but then he changed his vote when he thought Rush and skitzer were more important. But his biggest case was on SG, so I find it plausible that he would've RB'ed her.

[LlamaFluff]

Jahudo should either hammer or express belief in his next post.

Neither of the two things above

[The Fonz]

I always seem to be kept around for this sole reason - I'm a fairly easy lynch. As far as not breadcrumbing, I didn't breadcrumb as doctor in Open 70 either.

Being lynchable does not make you town. Having not breadcrumbed in a past game does not mean we should let that part of a claim go.

Not to mention... who the hell breadcrumbs doctor?

[Jebus]

I always seem to be kept around for this sole reason - I'm a fairly easy lynch. As far as not breadcrumbing, I didn't breadcrumb as doctor in Open 70 either.

Being lynchable does not make you town. Having not breadcrumbed in a past game does not mean we should let that part of a claim go.

Not to mention... who the hell breadcrumbs doctor?

'You'd be surprised.

And if I must have something else in this post, it's that my opinion on SG hasn't changed.

[The Fonz]

It's not impossible that SG could be a cop... but there's a huge list of hugely convenient coincidences that would have had to happen for it to be true. And her claim fits absolutely perfectly with what you'd expect textbook scum to claim in that scenario.

[ShadowGirl]

@Jahudo: Either way, I just don't really breadcrumb things. In my mind, my breadcrumb of arlmx being town is that I've never called him scummy or anything the sort. Yeah... I just don't really breadcrumb things.

In your seventh post you push on CKD for overreacting towards Stef. In this post there is zero sense of encouraging the line of questioning towards Stef, but more of a defense of Stef given that you are trying not to counter the questions but the questioner. You also really didn’t pay a whole lot of attention to Stef apart from trying to get him to calm down, especially alignment wise. You mention him a few times near the end of the day but most of the attention you gave him was related to the question.

I had no problems with the line of questioning (did I say anything of the sort?) and as to why I didn't discourage it.

I never said I was encouraging it, so stop trying to misrepresent me. Nor did I 'push' on CKD - I merely said that it was likely a joke vote. I don't understand the 'especially alignment wise', I wanted him to calm down, since his actions were not helping town at all, and as such why I didn't mention any more - what else did I have to say about a person who wanted to get himself lynched?

Can you link me to the game or games where Tajo claimed vanilla town on page five and really was vanilla town? This view on him seem to be entirely meta based, and I really don’t want to get into the whole “antitown meta” argument in another game right now. If someone is scummy you lynch them. Now, you say that you thought Tajo was town given the way he played. You call him scummy in your 11 and 14 though, so I don’t get those conflicting reads. Also in your 12 you called Tajos move WIFOM, you never backed it up with a meta until just recently.

Now you are trying to explain the Stef-Tajo thing as Tajo was more likely scum by himself. This again goes against multiple things that you have just said because I thought Tajo-town was not at all surprising to you. Guess not. Also Stef-Tajo connection was looked at and you thought Tajo was scum deflecting onto his scum buddy? Getting really confused about your Tajo reads throughout the day, and trying to find out what they were makes me realize how much you ignored the whole thing.

I never said he claimed vanilla in another game I was in, but that the way he played was similar to his town play in another game. Now about the 'conflicting read'. At the beginning of the game, I categorize everyone as neutral. Then his vanilla claim happened, which I considered a null tell, so he was still pretty much at neutral (though it seemed it odd for a scum-tajo to do such a thing). Then tajo went and defended stef (defending another player wasn't something too odd for tajo, but not to such a degree.) Then he tried to deflect attention back to the person he had been defending, which didn't seem like him.

So, chronological thought process: Neutral > Neutral > Scummy > Scummier > Town (Because of the weird, weird doctor claim)

This is different then what BA did, and what you voted him for how? I kind of wish Stef would of got vigged N2 instead so I could of seen you completely ignore Stef given that Tajo flipped town.

He was advocating for the

clearing

of a person, who incidentally turned out to be scum.

I'll reply to the other points in the next post, otherwise this will just be one big wall of text.