Mini 142: Guitarists Mafia- Game Over

[Mastermind of Sin]

But then why would he say he thought she was scum if he didn't? That's unnecessarily risky if he has some reason to not see her lynched...

[Talitha]

Yeah that was a kinda weird statement King E.

[Internet Stranger]

Nothing to add for now.

[Maverick]

Wow, I'm soo confused.. *Sighs* I'm going to go back and reread things, Iguess I'm a bit behind.

*Maverick*

[nonny]

^what mav said.....i really need to rereread sorry have had much comp time this week.

[Mr. Flay]

I guess it's a good thing not much has happened because I've been superbusy this week: will answer your questions (again) in a bit, Talitha.

[Internet Stranger]

Im dossapointed with the inactivity. I still would prefer to take my chances with King Enigma right now. I would have a hard time voting for Tally anyways, even if she latched on to my coat tails.

[Internet Stranger]

23 hours of inactivity is unacceptable.

[Mastermind of Sin]

yeah, is anyone there???

[Talitha]

Assasin, are you still with us?

[Assasin]

Hi, sorry I haven't talked. I forgot to check in on this game and iv'e been pretty preoccupied. Will respond with more info later when I have more time.

[justinl]

I wouldn't mind a retractable deadline to get things going

[Talitha]

Be nice if the people who have promised to re-read or respond later would actually do so.

[Internet Stranger]

This is ridiculous. I want the mod to give me autolynch powers for when the game stalls.

[Maverick]

Sorry about the delay of game, I'm pretty much back for good, and hopefully everyone else will come back too so this game can get started back up.

Anyways, I thought I explained why I took my vote off of Talitha on Day 1? Then I thought she was scum, and I unvoted her still thinking she was scum, but the fact that nobody else thought she was scum (except like one other person) made me take my vote off of her, because it wasn't going to do anything. Now, I don't think Talitha is scum, although I have no reason to believe otherwise, I just changed my mind.

I don't think that Mr. Flay is suspicious either, I don't think that he knows anything that we don't know.

As for KingEnigma, I don't think he is scum, but also don't have reason to believe otherwise, he hasn't contributed much this game (Can't really say I have, that'd be hypocritical*) so even if he is town, it wouldn't be a huge loss. But I'm not going to vote for him, because I would rather lynch someone today that I'm more sure of.

Again, sorry I have been absent, I will try my best to check at least once per day.

*Maverick*

[Mr. Flay]

It's inside knowledge that I don't think a player looks suspicious when you do? I'm with Dourgrim on this one, you're awfully high-and-mighty here. Especially for someone who led a bad lynch yesterday (you and IS, technically, but he at least didn't try to give it any pretext).

It was nothing to do with you disagreeing with me at all. It was your reaction to Assasin's vote for Dourgrim on Page

1

. You said it was

mindless

. It was Assasin's first post. How did you know it was mindless and not a result of some information he might have? (I have said this several times before and have yet to get a satisfactory answer).

Here, *again*, are the reasons I thought Assasin's vote was "mindless and weird":

Vote Dourgrim

Note: This was the second vote on Dourgrim, and the entirety of his post. Which is exactly what I said two posts later:

FOS: Assasin for stacking a second vote on with no explanation whatsoever.

Then three posts later...

I voted Dourgrim because he's evil, and I didn't need IS to tell me that

A cop with a lucky investigation MIGHT have come out on Day One, even though it was probably suicide. I found the likelihood of this extremely small, though, so I FOS'ed him. Since he didn't want to explain what he was up to, it looked like a straight bandwagon. Hence, I voted for him in post 27. Incidentally, I had to unvote you to do so, and you've been badgering me ever since. What gives? In the words of people who've played a lot longer than me,

"It's a little early to be defending people, isn't it?

Mr Flay hadn't posted, but Assassin did, saying his vote was random.

Why are you taking him at his word? "random votes" are the easiest way to get on a bandwagon and defer suspicion, so one might suspect that the belated explanation was crafted after he drew some heat (not much, I admit, but he's been keeping his head down ever since).

The fact that you did jump to that conclusion (and were right!), is why I am voting for you. If you know that Dour is innocent because you're scum...

Right. As I said at the time, I wasn't voting for Assasin because Dourgrim was verifiably innocent in my eyes, but because Assasin was acting funny. The first second-vote of a game got my FOS, his "explanation" got my vote. Why are we still having this discussion (aside from the obvious distraction from your leading the lynch of Dourgrim)??

And then more of the same in posts 94, 115, 117, 118, 128/129, etc...

So why am I more suspicious than IS? Or anyone else who voted for Dour? Because I tried to engage the person I was voting for?

Essentially, yes. I could accept Assasin making a newbie mistake, if a poor one. I could accept IS's random vote because he ALWAYS votes out of the blue, and nobody ever seems to want to lynch him without an investigation. I said in post 46 "IS: I'm sure it goes without saying, but I *hate* your playing style.... I'd vote you if I thought it would do any good.". I did in the only prior game we played together (Hobbit mafia), but I don't think anyone else did the entire game. He's just one of those players who has the legendary status/ability. Depending on his behavior today, I might try again: I don't ascribe to the worship of the elder players, which is why we're having this conversation.

You had the strongest claims against Dourgrim yesterday, and ended up leading to a deadline-based lynch (as I stated when I voted, I didn't particularly think he was guilty but the day was going to drag on until deadline, unless a raft of players suddenly saw things otherwise). Dourgrim had enough votes to be deadline-lynched since 12/8/04. On 12/27 Cubsfan put a deadline for five days out (1/2)...at least three people were already locked-in on their votes.

And calling me high-and-mighty just makes me want to throw things. Last I checked my vote only counted for one. I didn't lynch Dour all by myself. And it's not like I bullied everyone into voting for Dourgrim. Nor am I trying to bully anyone into voting for you. They can all freaking vote for me, for all I care right now.

Fine. Your anger issues are not my problem; I'm merely pointing out what I see as suspicious behavior, in that you were the strongest proponent of the erroneous lynch yesterday.

Who else might I be suspicious of based on that criteria?

Internet Stranger?

We discussed this above. I'm not "clever" enough to assail his Paragon status, and if I tried it'd probably just get me lynched too. I don't think he's acting particularly scummy or innocent (for IS) in this game so far, though. You said yourself in post 51 that nobody wants to lynch IS on Day One.

Assasin?

I'm more likely to ascribe to him newbie status right now than I was when I initially voted for him, but if you come up as evil I know where I'm going next... especially with this from post 144:

I have to say you're looking quite suspicious by sitting there and not saying anything Assasin.

But I don't like to lynch newbies on Day 1, even if they are wearing a badge that says 'I'm scum' on it.

Why not? I mean, aside from metagame reasons of not making someone leave the site when they get voted off the island in their first game, why would you automatically ascribe to newbies an 'innocent' badge that they haven't earned? I've been in five games now, counting this one, and by some counts I'm a newbie. I don't expect anyone to cut me any slack based on my number of posts or number of games; I expect to be voted up or down based on my

behavior in that game

.
justinl? He voted for DG fourth (after you) with the famous "yeah, whatever" vote. Putting Dourgrim two away from lynch was a little cavalier for that sort of post, and since he's on your side in today's press (on me), I'm equally happy voting for him or you right now. He seems to be crafting some retroactive reasoning in post 216. "something about you yesterday was rubbing me wrong and I regret not saying anything about it then " yeah, whatever.

nonny?

nonny was lurking a lot before the holidays, and a lot of us were busy. Right now we're in a full-fledged fit of lurkerdom but she's not off my radar. If you'll notice, all of these people I've either voted for or (in IS's case) said I would vote for. It's not like I'm really singling you out, Talitha, whereas you seem to be engaged in the same "spat" with me today that you were in with Dourgrim yesterday. Yesterday it got a townie lynched. What happens today? I don't trust you in this game; not that I really trust anybody, but right now you're my best lead.

KingEnigma?

I really don't have anything productive here. His posts have been pretty random at best, so I can't really get a read on what his scummishness is. Insane people make my head hurt...

myself?

I put the lynching vote on Dourgrim because we'd reached a stalemate. No one was budging their vote (except maybe Maverick who unvoted you, inexplicably), we were in the middle of the winter holidays, and Dourgrim had already claimed. I said, and he said, and IS and I don't know how many others, "time to lynch the claimed townie and move on". Today, I have more information to go against the people who voted for him. Congratulations.

I'd have thought you'd want to re-evaluate your strategy after lynching Dourgrim, but you're intent to continue steering the boat.

I am simply voting for who I think is scum. The others can and will do what they want. You really sound like you're afraid people will listen to me.

I'm willing to gamble on you being it, just like you were willing to gamble on Dourgrim yesterday. Are you game, Talitha?

You don't sound very confident here, about me being scum....

How much more confident can I sound? I'll gladly put my head on the chopping block tomorrow if you come up innocent today. You made a bad choice yesterday and you're trying to weasel out of ANY responsibility for it. Are you willing to make that same risk? (rhetorical, of course: you already said you don't care if people vote for you or not)

[Mr. Flay]

It's inside knowledge that I don't think a player looks suspicious when you do? I'm with Dourgrim on this one, you're awfully high-and-mighty here. Especially for someone who led a bad lynch yesterday (you and IS, technically, but he at least didn't try to give it any pretext).

It was nothing to do with you disagreeing with me at all. It was your reaction to Assasin's vote for Dourgrim on Page

1

. You said it was

mindless

. It was Assasin's first post. How did you know it was mindless and not a result of some information he might have? (I have said this several times before and have yet to get a satisfactory answer).

Here, *again*, are the reasons I thought Assasin's vote was "mindless and weird":

Vote Dourgrim

Note: This was the second vote on Dourgrim, and the entirety of his post. Which is exactly what I said two posts later:

FOS: Assasin for stacking a second vote on with no explanation whatsoever.

Then three posts later...

I voted Dourgrim because he's evil, and I didn't need IS to tell me that

A cop with a lucky investigation MIGHT have come out on Day One, even though it was probably suicide. I found the likelihood of this extremely small, though, so I FOS'ed him. Since he didn't want to explain what he was up to, it looked like a straight bandwagon. Hence, I voted for him in post 27. Incidentally, I had to unvote you to do so, and you've been badgering me ever since. What gives? In the words of people who've played a lot longer than me,

"It's a little early to be defending people, isn't it?

Mr Flay hadn't posted, but Assassin did, saying his vote was random.

Why are you taking him at his word? "random votes" are the easiest way to get on a bandwagon and defer suspicion, so one might suspect that the belated explanation was crafted after he drew some heat (not much, I admit, but he's been keeping his head down ever since).

The fact that you did jump to that conclusion (and were right!), is why I am voting for you. If you know that Dour is innocent because you're scum...

Right. As I said at the time, I wasn't voting for Assasin because Dourgrim was verifiably innocent in my eyes, but because Assasin was acting funny. The first second-vote of a game got my FOS, his "explanation" got my vote. Why are we still having this discussion (aside from the obvious distraction from your leading the lynch of Dourgrim)??

And then more of the same in posts 94, 115, 117, 118, 128/129, etc...

So why am I more suspicious than IS? Or anyone else who voted for Dour? Because I tried to engage the person I was voting for?

Essentially, yes. I could accept Assasin making a newbie mistake, if a poor one. I could accept IS's random vote because he ALWAYS votes out of the blue, and nobody ever seems to want to lynch him without an investigation. I said in post 46 "IS: I'm sure it goes without saying, but I *hate* your playing style.... I'd vote you if I thought it would do any good.". I did in the only prior game we played together (Hobbit mafia), but I don't think anyone else did the entire game. He's just one of those players who has the legendary status/ability. Depending on his behavior today, I might try again: I don't ascribe to the worship of the elder players, which is why we're having this conversation.

You had the strongest claims against Dourgrim yesterday, and ended up leading to a deadline-based lynch (as I stated when I voted, I didn't particularly think he was guilty but the day was going to drag on until deadline, unless a raft of players suddenly saw things otherwise). Dourgrim had enough votes to be deadline-lynched since 12/8/04. On 12/27 Cubsfan put a deadline for five days out (1/2)...at least three people were already locked-in on their votes.

And calling me high-and-mighty just makes me want to throw things. Last I checked my vote only counted for one. I didn't lynch Dour all by myself. And it's not like I bullied everyone into voting for Dourgrim. Nor am I trying to bully anyone into voting for you. They can all freaking vote for me, for all I care right now.

Fine. Your anger issues are not my problem; I'm merely pointing out what I see as suspicious behavior, in that you were the strongest proponent of the erroneous lynch yesterday.

Who else might I be suspicious of based on that criteria?

Internet Stranger?

We discussed this above. I'm not "clever" enough to assail his Paragon status, and if I tried it'd probably just get me lynched too. I don't think he's acting particularly scummy or innocent (for IS) in this game so far, though. You said yourself in post 51 that nobody wants to lynch IS on Day One.

Assasin?

I'm more likely to ascribe to him newbie status right now than I was when I initially voted for him, but if you come up as evil I know where I'm going next... especially with this from post 144:

I have to say you're looking quite suspicious by sitting there and not saying anything Assasin.

But I don't like to lynch newbies on Day 1, even if they are wearing a badge that says 'I'm scum' on it.

Why not? I mean, aside from metagame reasons of not making someone leave the site when they get voted off the island in their first game, why would you automatically ascribe to newbies an 'innocent' badge that they haven't earned? I've been in five games now, counting this one, and by some counts I'm a newbie. I don't expect anyone to cut me any slack based on my number of posts or number of games; I expect to be voted up or down based on my

behavior in that game

.
justinl? He voted for DG fourth (after you) with the famous "yeah, whatever" vote. Putting Dourgrim two away from lynch was a little cavalier for that sort of post, and since he's on your side in today's press (on me), I'm equally happy voting for him or you right now. He seems to be crafting some retroactive reasoning in post 216. "something about you yesterday was rubbing me wrong and I regret not saying anything about it then " yeah, whatever.

nonny?

nonny was lurking a lot before the holidays, and a lot of us were busy. Right now we're in a full-fledged fit of lurkerdom but she's not off my radar. If you'll notice, all of these people I've either voted for or (in IS's case) said I would vote for. It's not like I'm really singling you out, Talitha, whereas you seem to be engaged in the same "spat" with me today that you were in with Dourgrim yesterday. Yesterday it got a townie lynched. What happens today? I don't trust you in this game; not that I really trust anybody, but right now you're my best lead.

KingEnigma?

I really don't have anything productive here. His posts have been pretty random at best, so I can't really get a read on what his scummishness is. Insane people make my head hurt...

myself?

I put the lynching vote on Dourgrim because we'd reached a stalemate. No one was budging their vote (except maybe Maverick who unvoted you, inexplicably), we were in the middle of the winter holidays, and Dourgrim had already claimed. I said, and he said, and IS and I don't know how many others, "time to lynch the claimed townie and move on". Today, I have more information to go against the people who voted for him. Congratulations.

I'd have thought you'd want to re-evaluate your strategy after lynching Dourgrim, but you're intent to continue steering the boat.

I am simply voting for who I think is scum. The others can and will do what they want. You really sound like you're afraid people will listen to me.

I'm willing to gamble on you being it, just like you were willing to gamble on Dourgrim yesterday. Are you game, Talitha?

You don't sound very confident here, about me being scum....

How much more confident can I sound? I'll gladly put my head on the chopping block tomorrow if you come up innocent today. You made a bad choice yesterday and you're trying to weasel out of ANY responsibility for it. Are you willing to make that same risk? (rhetorical, of course: you already said you don't care if people vote for you or not)

[Talitha]

Mr Flay. I'm not trying to sound condescending here, but as a veteran of only 5 games, you might not be aware that very often a townie gets lynched on Day 1.

Furthermore, just about always, whenever anyone claims plain townie, I will try and lynch them.

Especially

on day 1. You can check out my other games if you don't believe me. It is the best strategy for the town. Please bear this in mind.

I'll most probably respond to the rest of your post after some sleep.

[Internet Stranger]

Unvote: KingEnigma
Vote: Assassin

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sorry about the delay of game, I'm pretty much back for good, and hopefully everyone else will come back too so this game can get started back up.

Anyways, I thought I explained why I took my vote off of Talitha on Day 1? Then I thought she was scum, and I unvoted her still thinking she was scum, but the fact that nobody else thought she was scum (except like one other person) made me take my vote off of her, because it wasn't going to do anything. Now, I don't think Talitha is scum, although I have no reason to believe otherwise, I just changed my mind.

I don't think that Mr. Flay is suspicious either, I don't think that he knows anything that we don't know.

As for KingEnigma, I don't think he is scum, but also don't have reason to believe otherwise, he hasn't contributed much this game (Can't really say I have, that'd be hypocritical*) so even if he is town, it wouldn't be a huge loss. But I'm not going to vote for him, because I would rather lynch someone today that I'm more sure of.

Again, sorry I have been absent, I will try my best to check at least once per day.

*Maverick*

what a load of BS...why take your vote off someone you think is most likely to be scum??? Voting for her was more likely to do something than not voting for her, because, as I explained before, had people been deciding between Dour and Tally as equally scummy, than they would probably go with the person with the most votes...however, the more votes she had from people who actually thought she was scum, the more likely people were to consider voting for her if they thought she was as scummy/scummier than Dourgrim...at this point, I think we've caught you in a major contradiction of your views, saying someone is scum but unvoting them for crap reasons...I think you are scum and possibly trying to protect Tally but wanting to be able to say "but I was suspicious of her and voted for her earlier" if she gets lynched and turns up scum...

UNVOTE, VOTE: Maverick

[Mr. Flay]

IS, why the switch?

Talitha: No, you don't sound condescending at all. I know the first day often doesn't go the town's way (puzzlingly, the only "Normal" game I've been in was The Hobbit, which was teh br0k3n).

I'll wait on anything else until you get a chance to respond. You were patient with me...etc.

[Maverick]

Well MoS, I'm glad you have your opinion, which might I add is completely crap. All I can say to you is I'm telling the truth, and I don't really care what you think about it. One vote for me isn't going to hurt me much, so I'm not threatened yet.

*Maverick*

[Talitha]

A cop with a lucky investigation MIGHT have come out on Day One, even though it was probably suicide.

Why would it be suicide?

In the words of people who've played a lot longer than me, "It's a little early to be defending people, isn't it?

Could you please explain this further. Who was I defending? Assasin?

Why are you taking him (Assasin) at his word? "random votes" are the easiest way to get on a bandwagon and defer suspicion, so one might suspect that the belated explanation was crafted after he drew some heat (not much, I admit, but he's been keeping his head down ever since).

I wasn't taking him at his word, but what he said confirmed to me that he was NOT a cop coming forward with info. At that point my suspicion of you (and him, incidentally) rose significantly (because you already seemed to know he wasn't a cop). I'm still not entirely sure whether this was a scummy slip on your part, or whether you just saw it different to me.

You had the strongest claims against Dourgrim yesterday (....) you were the strongest proponent of the erroneous lynch yesterday.

You need to take this a step further and demonstrate how this makes me scummy. In my experience the people pushing hard and vocally against someone on Day 1 are most often town.

why would you automatically ascribe to newbies an 'innocent' badge that they haven't earned?

I didn't ascribe anyone an innocent badge. Far from it. IIRC I even voted for Assasin yesterday. I am extremely suspicious of him. But still I'd feel bad to lynch him Day 1. Day 2 is a different story and at this point I'd be quite happy to give him a severe bandwagoning. (Pity I'm so attached to my vote on you right now).

you seem to be engaged in the same "spat" with me today that you were in with Dourgrim yesterday.

I'm not going to apologise for any of it - spats are a good way to learn stuff about the other players.

You made a bad choice yesterday and you're trying to weasel out of ANY responsibility for it.

First, I don't believe I made a bad choice yesterday. Could've ended better but I believe it was the best decision at the time. Secondly, that statement should equally apply to

you

. I have not tried to weasel out of responsibility for anything. But you're suggesting that because I argued with Dour yesterday, rather than acting like I wasn't sure or just casually slipping my vote on him, that I am somehow the most scummy on the lynch. Nuh uh. Take responsibility for your own vote Flay. At least *I* thought Dour was scummy. If you didn't want him to be lynched you could've voted for me and tried to get others to do the same, or petitioned the mod for more time.

Damn I wish I could vote for more than 1 person.

unvote Flay, vote: Assasin

[Internet Stranger]

You and Tally already made my arguement for Assassin already.

[Assasin]

Wait just a second. Since when am I the number 1 person on the list for voting.
Talitha, whats with the sudden switch you even said
"Day 2 is a different story and at this point I'd be quite happy to give him a severe bandwagoning. (Pity I'm so attached to my vote on you right now). "
Plus at least I'm staying posted unlike Nonny, King Enigma, and Justinl. Besides, al Justinl has done is put a random vote on Mr. Flay.

U vote whoever if I was voting and Vote Justinl

at least until he starts to speak.