726 - Mind Screw Gaiden, Game Over

[Illumina]

Isacc: Welcome to the game! What's your take on the debates between tajo and Vi, and myself and Kairyuu? And who's your pick for scum so far? (Malthisis, can I ask you the same questions?)

Also, why is Battle Mage still on the vote count?

Vote: Battle Mage

, for testing purposes.

[Isacc]

Hey...let's see...

In terms of Tajo vs Vi, I'm a little torn. Tajo's "confirming people with information" seems a little odd, and I don't see how that would possibly work, or how he would seem to think we'd all have information that could confirm eachother. This bugs me a lot.

However, Vi's argumentative style bugs me for reasons I cannot yet put my finger wholely on.
For one, he seems kinda unsure of where he's trying to argue (tajo, then kai, then SSK, all randomly in one post). It seems like he's either eager town overextending himself, or scum unsure where the blows will hit best. For now, the former seems more likely, but I am definitely a bit put off by the way he's been arguing.


Now, for Kai vs Illumina, I have to say that while not all of Kai's little points make perfect sense, his overall argument holds. You sure seemed to be trying hard for awhile there to be avoiding a confrontation, without really providing a whole lot of great reasoning. It seemed like only when you started loosing steam (and started having people against you) did you concede your point.

For now, however, I only give you a good

FoS

as I do not feel there is enough evidence towards a lynch yet.


Seeing as you asked, though, I would say my pick for scum would have to be between you and hp[leaves]. I call bull on the mysterious "Oh yeah, I missed that note."

However, I have to pick you because I think it'd be more likely that hp

was

G-man than that the scum wouldn't receive the note, and he was scum. Not saying I have any strong belief he

is

G-man (Tar's logic on the mod being G-man makes a lot of sense, honestly, and I think has been surprisingly ignored so far) just that it seems more logical than scum, considering the note situation.

So there, Illum you're my top scum pick so far, though not enough to justify a lynch at all yet.

[Illumina]

For my part, I'm not sure Kai had cause to jump on my mistake like he did in the first place. In my defense, I had two good reasons to ask Kai to drop the argument: first, he was beating a dead horse, since we had both laid out our arguments fully. Second, I've seen town get bogged down and distracted by sagas of long quote analysis that are more quibbling between the participants than informative, and this game is complicated enough without that. You can judge whether that's evasive or not.

Also, regarding hp: he did demonstrate that he possessed the note. Btw, do you favor a Nat lynch?

[forbiddanlight]

Um... Bamboo Forest and Time Abuse are the ones I'm thinking of.

Though Time Abuse was more a case of selective waffling.

That was me being way too retarded. Actually, I was thinking about Western Touhou Community, I believe. There was another uncaring/apathetic town here as well, but I'm pretty sure it's still ongoing. Could be wrong though.

[Vi]

However, Vi's argumentative style bugs me for reasons I cannot yet put my finger wholely on.
For one, he seems kinda unsure of where he's trying to argue (tajo, then kai, then SSK, all randomly in one post). It seems like he's either eager town overextending himself, or scum unsure where the blows will hit best. For now, the former seems more likely, but I am definitely a bit put off by the way he's been arguing.

Responding to more than one conversation at a time is scummy...?

@Illumina: Why are you defending hp?

[Isacc]

Also, regarding hp: he did demonstrate that he possessed the note. Btw, do you favor a Nat lynch?

2 questions.

How in the world did he do that?

Why are you jumping at defending him?


@Vi:

Responding to more than one conversation at a time is scummy...?

Well not necessarily. As I specifically said, it suggests either a town who is overextending himself or a scum who can't figure out which argument will be strongest.

Also "responding" is not the word I would use..."jumping into" is more accurate.


@FL:

I don't like all your justification for lurking. I don't care how many times you've done it before, just don't do it now. There is no good reason or justification for it.

That said, I can't really call you scummy for it, since it has been pretty common overall in this thread recently. However, I'd suggest you pick up the pace.

[populartajo]

Antiprod. Working in everything that has been posed to me.

[Kairyuu]

Whoot. Almost done. 2 midterms left!

@Vi: Yes. Midterms in January. When do you have yours?

Hopefully I can finish enough of my work to get a moderately sized post in sometime later tonight, but I will definitely have a nice wall o' text for you guys tomorrow sometime once I'm done with midterms.

[Illumina]

How in the world did he do that?
Why are you jumping at defending him?

? Really? I'm pointing out something relevant you seem to have missed: in post 121, hp said he could post the note's name to confirm he had it. Reading your post 276, I wasn't sure if you had realized that. If this counts as "jumping to defend hp", then just lynch me now.

FoS: Isacc and Vi

for being a little opportunistic.

Also, it'd be nice to get some thoughts from you before the end of d1, forbiddanlight. A lot has happened, and I don't really know how you stand on anything. You look like you're deliberately trying to coast (whether you really are or not -- I know how it can be).

[Vi]

How in the world did he do that?
Why are you jumping at defending him?

in post 121, hp said he could post the note's name to confirm he had it.

That's not a demonstration.

[forbiddanlight]

@FL:

I don't like all your justification for lurking. I don't care how many times you've done it before, just don't do it now. There is no good reason or justification for it.

That said, I can't really call you scummy for it, since it has been pretty common overall in this thread recently. However, I'd suggest you pick up the pace.

At least I'm honest. Anyway, it'll be easier to pick up the pace when my good computer is fixed.

[populartajo]

In terms of Tajo vs Vi, I'm a little torn. Tajo's "confirming people with information" seems a little odd, and I don't see how that would possibly work, or how he would seem to think we'd all have information that could confirm eachother. This bugs me a lot.

Dude, this is simple.
Apparently, the majority of players here have a note that point to a nontown player. It makes sense that if we all share a piece of common information we could confirm at least who has the note and who doesnt have it. (Example: we could ask someone the name of the ability). This could prob end in jackassery but Ive heard that PM scpeculation is normal in Nat games.
Illumina, I think you asked me a question. Could you rephrase it?

[populartajo]

Why Nat stopped posting?

[Vi]

This could prob end in jackassery but Ive heard that PM scpeculation is normal in Nat games.

*vouches for this*

Why Nat stopped posting?

?

[populartajo]

Kin, Ill let you finish your reread so you can post your exact reasons to vote me.

[veerus]

what are your notes on hp? given all the linking you've noted, i'm surprised he's not on your "scum team" list

[populartajo]

Kin, Ill let you finish your reread so you can post your exact reasons to vote me.

I'll do you one better: here are my current notes on you and why I think you're most likely scum.

-------

Based on pop's 92, what if hp is scum, but a solo-scum type, such as SK or Jester or something. He wouldn't get the note by this logic and wouldn't know this was odd without confirmation from other players.

Pop's defense in 101 isn't convincing. He does say "I do think that scum didn't get the list or that prob scum knows there is a list but no more. (pop 92)", but immediately backs away from that in 101 "I never said scum didnt get the list. (pop 101)". Additionally he replied to Vi's question in a way that benefited him without actually being a lie. (i.e. Vi said 'You said you thought this was the way' but pop responded with 'I never said that was the way for sure', but Vi was correct in his original question, he did indeed think that was the way it was.)

More linking (by pop mostly) between hp and pop in 118, 119, 120.

Very interesting... HP goes to confirm himself, and pop stops him..... Makes me wonder if Pop is pushing the link. Pop seems scummy from this...

Another point against pop: 151. In his list of information that was "ok" were some things that anyone who played MS1 or MS2 would know aren't safe. Definitely an eye-raising moment.

--------

These are my notes, up to about page 7, on you, and of all my notes I'm most convinced that you're scum at this point.

Kin, trust me. Read all the thread and then post everything you think of me. Ill answer everything then.
Just wonderin:. According to you Im scum and Im linked to hp but why is he last in your "I dont know" list and why Im in your scum list?
Also excuse me for posting my thoughts in thread even if they are wrong and for not playing in MS1 and MS2. Not everyone is as cool as you are.

[populartajo]

what are your notes on hp? given all the linking you've noted, i'm surprised he's not on your "scum team" list

Simulposting ftw.

[MafiaSSK]

How am I lurking exactly Kinetic?

[Natirasha]

"Dude, zombies are NOT allowed to run this fast."

I need another replacement for Lolwat if anyone wants to be nice. And, to have an example of what your getting into, it's 17 pages and we've a a six-man mason group claim.

Also, I forgot to mention yesterday you FAILED the second mod deadline. Ergo, get cracking.

[quote="The Thirteenth Vote Count(aka the "Zombie Bullshit" Vote Count)"]Vote Count
Natirasha(3): forbiddanlight, Malthusis, MafiaSSK
forbiddanlight(1): Vi
hp [leaves](1): veerus
illumina(2): Kairyuu, Tarhalindur
Kairyuu(1): Illumina
Kinetic(0):
MafiaSSK(0):
populartajo(1): Kinetic
Isacc(0):
Tarhalindur(0):
veerus(1): populartajo
Vi (0):
Battle Mage(0):

FoS Count
Natirasha(1): forbiddanlight
forbiddanlight(0):
hp [leaves](0):
illumina(2): Kairyuu, Tarhalindur
Kairyuu(1): hp [leaves]
Kinetic(0):
MafiaSSK(1): MafiaSSK
populartajo(3): veerus, Kinetic, Malthusis
Isacc(1): Illumina
Tarhalindur(0):
veerus(0):
Vi (0):
fluffy bunnies(0):
Floofy bunnies(1): MafiaSSK
lol I am arguing with myself(0):
Poofy Bunnies with Big Floppy Ears(1): Vi[/quote]

[Tarhalindur]

Still here, but a little out of things (I'm somewhat V/LA until I finish getting my bearings on this semester).

Notes on rules:

Natirasha is almost certainly using a barely-modified version of my ruleset. That means: We almost certainly have a little less than a week until deadline (unless time between first deadline review and second deadline review =/= 1 week, I should doublecheck), PM quoting and scumbuddy claims are almost certainly modkillable, and jackassery should be in effect.

I don't have time for a proper causation analysis just yet, so quick thoughts on players:

Kinetic - He's missing his zeal here (nontown tell coming from him, given past experience), but he's posted a case on poptajo. I'll look over the poptajo ASAP - if it's not BS, Kinetic is likely town. @Kinetic: Did you lay out a case against Kairyuu somewhere? If yes, I missed the spot check: please point out the post number. If not, I'd like to know why you think Kairyuu is scum.

forbiddanlight - Quiet for this game (this is not completely hypocritical - one reason I rarely join a Mafia game as a player is because I'm fairly inactive at times), but appears to have indicated V/LA. Big mindset to double-check here is whether forbiddanlight is trying to stay under the radar and avoid conflict (scum mindset), which I haven't had time to do yet.

Illumina - Need to run causation analysis on her more recent posts - it's clearly evasion, but the real question is whether he's trying to dodge questions. @Illumina: If there's a post where you summarize what you believe Kairyuu's points against you are and your defense of those points, please point it out. If not, please write one.

Isacc - Just shot up to the top of my scumdar due to his analysis in 276. Note how much he tries to avoid making firm conclusions (always pointing out other possible explanations) - I'm reading that as an attempt to leave escape routes should his position become unpopular (scum mindset). Also note the "However, Vi's argumentative style bugs me for reasons I cannot yet put my finger wholely on."; note how, instead of asking why Vi's argumentative style is bugging him, Isacc notes that this style is bugging him and implies that he will go back and figure out why (going back and trying to make a justification for the case...?).

Unvote, Vote: Isacc

poptajo - Reading town to me, partially for what I see as inexperienced town play (holding positions and sticking to them, responding to questions, etc.), partially for contingent historical (meta) reasons built partially on an ongoing game where I was or am a player.

MafiaSSK - Needs further evaluation. The more I look at his "no, we can't let you see if your ability will get its bonus on Nat because you might be scum looking for a doublekill", the more I'm seeing the possibility of scum fearmongering. The problem is, I'm not getting as much of a scum read from the rest of his posts, and MafiaSSK has a "plays antitown as town" meta... my preferred solution for now is investigate and/or vig and hope we don't have to worry about lynching him.

veerus - Again, a player with shorter posts than normal, and IIRC I laid a case out against him earlier. Expect more on this front when I actually have sleep.

Screw it, I'll get the rest up when I have some sleep.

[MafiaSSK]

How am I lurking exactly Kinetic?

Do you deny that you are lurking?

Indeed I do.

[Isacc]

Isacc - Just shot up to the top of my scumdar due to his analysis in 276. Note how much he tries to avoid making firm conclusions (always pointing out other possible explanations) - I'm reading that as an attempt to leave escape routes should his position become unpopular (scum mindset). Also note the "However, Vi's argumentative style bugs me for reasons I cannot yet put my finger wholely on."; note how, instead of asking why Vi's argumentative style is bugging him, Isacc notes that this style is bugging him and implies that he will go back and figure out why (going back and trying to make a justification for the case...?).

Hmm, I don't think you know me very well. You might note that in Mini 722 my posts D1 are very similar when I am still unsure of who is scum still.

Also, Tar, I don't think you really understood what my post was saying. A couple parts of your accusation seem a bit off to me. For example:

"Always pointing out other explanations."
I don't think I really see me doing this much. If you are really picky, I only did it twice in the entire post, with Vi and with HP, and those

were

firm conclusions (which you claim my "other explanations" go against).

"Note how, instead of asking why Vi's argumentative style is bugging him, Isacc notes that this style is bugging him and implies that he will go back and figure out why"
Actually, I did name the main way that Vi bugged me, to which even he responded. I don't see where you get that I have just put it out there without justification.

Anyways, it seems to me that you didn't read my post correctly. Sorry if I did not feel anything was yet strong enough for a lynch, as that may be the reason you feel I am not being "firm," but that's how I felt.

[Isacc]

Now, to something else I had noticed...

? Really? I'm pointing out something relevant you seem to have missed: in post 121, hp said he could post the note's name to confirm he had it. Reading your post 276, I wasn't sure if you had realized that. If this counts as "jumping to defend hp", then just lynch me now.
FoS: Isacc and Vi for being a little opportunistic.

HP saying he can give the name doesn't confirm anything at all. It could still be just as likely that he received the info from a scum partner, if he was scum.

And, opportunistic? Well, you are insisting that he has proven his note-knowledge, when he hasn't. I don't see how it's opportunistic to point out the very obvious issue that you seem eager to keep HP's credibility whole.

I'm sorry though, next time I'll just let your behavior go unnoticed, because, you know, that's the pro-town thing to do.

[Illumina]

Tar: Okay, here's the story from my perspective. In 51, Kairyuu says:

I would prefer a straight origin massclaim. I will, of course, stop it once I have the information that I need.

I propose Tar to start, because I think we may not need any more than his claim.

The idea of Kairyuu controlling a massclaim didn't sit well with me, so I respond in 103 by saying:

FoS: Kairyuu for wanting to control the claim that way -- we don't know what your motives are, and that's too much power in one person's hands.

In 105, Kairyuu accuses me of not reading the thread, since he argues that his post was crystal clear and couldn't be misinterpreted. Starting in his 114, he tries to box me in using his logic that reading his post any other way is impossible. Naturally, I respond by arguing that it's common for people to read posts in ways not intended by their authors. Kairyuu responds that there's no way this could be possible for his particular post. I respond by urging that it is possible. Kairyuu insists it isn't. Etc. Etc.

At this point, we were starting to get some low activity, which tends to happen when long quote wars are generated to make a point. Kairyuu and I were essentially stonewalling on one issue, and I thought the entire line of argument was an overreaction. So, I suggested we drop the matter. Kairyuu didn't want to do this, citing that my reactions were helpful and allowed the town to take sides. Sounds reasonable, except that we weren't generating any new content to take sides over, just locking horns over the original issue. I still feel that Kairyuu's focus on that one thing is unhelpful, and probably helped generate the low activity we're having now (something I've seen happen before, and wanted to avoid).

It seemed like only when you started loosing steam (and started having people against you) did you concede your point.

The only thing I've conceded is that Kairyuu's argument was tiresome, and unhelpful because it was an overreaction to something trivial (ie, my misreading his post, then correcting myself). I have no meta on him, so its hard for me to distinguish between him being opportunistic scum or very overzealous town (which I've encountered before). Either way, he made a big deal out of something that really wasn't.

without really providing a whole lot of great reasoning.

For most of the game, Kairyuu's argument was, "It's impossible that you could have misread my post. Now stop evading and try to convince me you misread my post." What other reasoning is there, besides the truth that I misread his post? Naturally, any response I made got interpreted as "being trapped in my own argument".

Also, Isacc, let's get something straight. In your 276, you
1) found it unlikely that hp suddenly remembered he had the note
2) didn't consider it very likely that hp was scum and didn't have the note
3) didn't have a strong belief hp was the gman
Given this, I wasn't sure if you had noted hp's post, and wanted to point it out since you had just replaced in. At any rate, that post shows that he probably has the note now (via scumbuddy, by virtue of starting with it, aliens, etc.). Explain how pointing out a relevant fact counts as defending him -- He has proven his note knowledge, unless you think he's bluffing. You didn't take that into account, so I thought you had missed it.