Mini #704: Hunchback of Notre Dame, Game Over

[Mizzy]

What? ...

I don't see how your role could have any effect on the setup whatsoever. As far as I can tell - assuming you die today - the only motivation to find out your role, and conversely, for you to hide your role, are, respectively, curiosity and spite.

If you guys can explain to me why knowing my role could help town and not help scum, I will tell my specific role, keeping in mind that if I am lynched, it doesn't matter what my role was to begin with.

[destructor]

Anyone else feeling that this little tiff between Urza and Mizzy is sounding

just

a bit staged?

Eh, this is what I was thinking. Not staged so much as bus-mode. If Urza and Mizzy are scum together and Mizzy flips scum, Urza would have gained a heap of town points. Mizzy has apparently resigned to the fact that she's the lynch and named Urza as a top suspect, which caught my attention since she's voting me but didn't even name me in her top three.

Batt, unless I missed it, I'm not seeing the merit in naming who everyone finds most pro-town and I'm confused as to why so many people did.

ThAd, what has Urza's done to look the most town?

[Urzassedatives]

Are you effing kidding me? I hate this site. Every time you zero in on a scum half the town goes "LOL BUSSING"

It makes no sense considering the fact that there was a good amount of town feeling that mizzy was not the play for today. In fact, my push against her is probably what assured she would be the play for the day. I recall batt and orto both voting and saying that other people were the play. Wouldnt it be better for a theortical scum to hang back and let his partner get not lynched and go to lylo?

Don't call wifom. Wifom has a very specific meaning. It means that each action is around equally likely. For instance, it would be not wifom to claim that you were not scum for day vigging your partner day one would be an extreme example. I would argue that theoretical benefits from scum bussing their partner are much less than hanging back and seeing what happens, especially because this site has a meta of being suspiciious of bussing.

[destructor]

I think accusations of bussing are usually lame if they're in Day 1 or something, but in possible end-game situations they're much more reasonable. Mizzy was at L-2 before ort unvoted and Kore was voting her in spirit. I don't know why you're saying that there was a sentiment in the town that Mizzy shouldn't be the lynch. She was pretty much the play from the moment ort claimed. Only Batt suggested another wagon (me) along with Mizzy, obv, and by the time ort switched his vote to you it would have looked completely weird for you to back off.

That's not a case for bussing at all, yeah, I know. But you wrote off other possibilities for the lack of kill, implying that ort MUST be lying if Mizzy flipped town, which is what makes all of the above more likely to be part of a bus. It's like you knew she had been blocked.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy has apparently resigned to the fact that she's the lynch and named Urza as a top suspect, which caught my attention since she's voting me but didn't even name me in her top three.

I meant looking at those folks on top of you. I felt it was common sense to look at the person I want lynched right now, but apparently, there's no such thing as common sense.

[Mizzy]

WIFOM is circular logic of any kind.

And Urza, I fully expect you to take responsibility for pushing my lynch and throwing the town into lylo. You seem to take responsibility for making me the play for today now, so I want to see that when I check back in to see what happens next.

[Battousai]

Destructor: It's plan B for in case Mizzy flips town. If she does that means either Ort lied or there is a doc (or a RBer, but I would have assumed that they would have came out of the woodworks by now and tell us who they blocked). If we give a list of the most townie, or even one random name for everyone that has refused, then tomorrow, if the doc dies in the night, we will know who they protected and we will have a confirmed innocent for Lylo, which is obviously very beneficial. [i[So for all those who have refused to list the most townie, list one person at random. If one of you is a doc, put in who you protected.[/i]

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

I don't any reason to delay further, so I will

Vote: Mizzy

.

[Axelrod]

I was under the impression that if a town "Power Role" died, it would be revealed, i.e. Cop, RBer, etc. Looking at the rules, it only says that players will be revealed as "Town" or "Mafia."

Are we not finding out when "power roles" are eliminated? If not, then this sucks almost as bad as the fact that there's a scum who's showing as "Town" already.

[petroleumjelly]

Day Three: Vote Count #4

4 Mizzy (Urzassedatives, destructor, ThAdmiral, Machiavellian-Mafia)
2 Urzassedatives (ortolan, Battousai)
1 Destructor (Mizzy)

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch, and

3

to lynch at deadline. Deadline is January 31, 9:59 pm CDT.

Not Voting – 2 – Axelrod, Korejora

[Mizzy]

I was under the impression that if a town "Power Role" died, it would be revealed, i.e. Cop, RBer, etc. Looking at the rules, it only says that players will be revealed as "Town" or "Mafia."

Are we not finding out when "power roles" are eliminated? If not, then this sucks almost as bad as the fact that there's a scum who's showing as "Town" already.

No, we are not. This is why I don't want to reveal my role.

[Thestatusquo]

No, you can't assert something THROUGH my logic, mizzy. I made an argument as to why wifom does not apply in certain situations. If you want to claim that it applies in all situations, then please defeat my logic as to why it isn't. Mafia is a game of arguments. You can't just make assertions PAST the arguments of other players.

I take full responsibility for your lynch? No, I don't take full responsibility. No one is ever completely responsible for a lynch in a game of mafia. However, I do think I was an important part. I do think your lynch had a possibility of not happening today if it weren't for me.

[Mizzy]

No, you can't assert something THROUGH my logic, mizzy. I made an argument as to why wifom does not apply in certain situations. If you want to claim that it applies in all situations, then please defeat my logic as to why it isn't. Mafia is a game of arguments. You can't just make assertions PAST the arguments of other players.

You can't arbitrarily change the definition of a word to suit your needs. You can say that it doesn't apply to a situation, but you can't just say, "Wifom has a very specific meaning. It means that each action is around equally likely." because that's not true.

[Battousai]

Urza: The reason I have settled on a Mizzy lynch today is through you making such a bold stance on her early. I don't know if she's scum, it's about 50/50. But a lynch on the person I feel IS scum will not happen and if they do turn up town, I get hardly any information.

Also, I don't get why people want Mizzy to reveal her role. When she's lynch and is revealed as scum, she lied. If she's lynched and is town, she didn't lie. We will know if there was one power role in play, thus scum have lost one role to fake claim. That's all the information we need. Any more would be just extra and usable by scum.

Now that I think about it, and rerealized that powerroles are revealed as town/scum, my idea about getting everyone to post who they are most likely town to give a potential doc an out is a bad idea as we will not know if a doc died. I was actually banking on dieing tonight, that way there would be a confirmed innocent tomorrow in Axelrod. I gave out enough hints in trying not to lynch Mizzy from the get go, trying to help the doc above all else, and kept mentioning the possibility of a doc. Normally a doc wouldn't claim in this scenerio, but with the limited death reveal, I think I should. Tomorrow, if I'm dead, there would be a confirmed innocent, and no more powerroles (Ort has claimed to use his two shot ability).

I am the doc. I protected Axelrod last night (night before I protected MM, but roflcopter was killed). So tonight the scum could kill me, or Axelrod. Killing me gives the town a confirmed innocent. Killing anyone else gives me a chance to protect them.

Just want to bring up a note on Ort. His goal, after knowing there was a correct doc/roleblock could have been to out the rb/doc. The next day would be/could be LyLo and used the fact Mizzy turned town and I claimed cop to mean he made a mistake and bank on the town being cautious and not lynch him. Just want the town to keep that in mind.

On a side note, this is about my fourth game as doc. I'm hoping Mizzy is town for my own, selfish reasoning that I protected correctly. That would bring my average to 75%

[ortolan]

I believe that means there is an equal chance that Battousai/Axelrod are town or that Mizzy is scum. (assuming discounting that scum could have deliberately submitted no-kill).

Just want to bring up a note on Ort. His goal, after knowing there was a correct doc/roleblock could have been to out the rb/doc.

Yes, the whole thing was an elaborate ruse to out the rb/doc even though I am the roleblocker and I claimed at the start of day two (although apparently neither you nor Mizzy noticed this???)

[Mizzy]

Yes, the whole thing was an elaborate ruse to out the rb/doc even though I am the roleblocker and I claimed at the start of day two (although apparently neither you nor Mizzy noticed this???)

I didn't notice it, no, but I thought you were town from way back before when you were attacking me yesterday so I didn't really care what your role was.

Um...since the other two roles are out, should I out mine or keep it a secret?

[Mizzy]

Oh, and, sorry for the double-post, but if I do keep mine a secret, the scum will need to choose between two active power roles, a confirmed townie, and a powerless power role to kill tonight. Unless they have a vig then they can only get one of us.

[Axelrod]

I was under the impression that if a town "Power Role" died, it would be revealed, i.e. Cop, RBer, etc. Looking at the rules, it only says that players will be revealed as "Town" or "Mafia."

Are we not finding out when "power roles" are eliminated? If not, then this sucks almost as bad as the fact that there's a scum who's showing as "Town" already.

No, we are not. This is why I don't want to reveal my role.

I was actually looking for a Mod. confirmation on that, which he didn't give when he did the vote count, so maybe I needed to ask more directly:

Mod: when a pro-town player with a role dies, is the role going to be revealed? If not...why not?

Also: with Batt. coming out (I was suspecting it might be something like that) we now have 3 "claimed" power roles. Three is the Max. we can have. Therefore, if there is a pro-town player (or two?) with a role who hasn't come out yet, you need to announce it NOW. (you don't have to say what role you are yet - still waiting on Mod. clarification), but we need to KNOW that someone is lying, and KNOW (if you die and in case these things aren't being revealed) that we have lost one.

Otherwise, a scum could be claiming a PR NOW and we'd never know it for certain.

Mizzy: I want you to claim your role. I disagree with Batt. that it serves no purpose. I think it could be very beneficial, and at worst, do no harm at all.

In case it's not obvious, I don't have a PR.

[Mizzy]

Ugh, alright. I'll claim. I'm a 1-shot night Vig. I didn't use my power yet because I have never played a vig before and have been stressing left and right about using my power and hitting a pro-towner by accident. I didn't want scum to know because if they didn't NK me tonight then maybe I could take one of them out since I have a solid notion of who not to target, now.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

Unvote

to get Mizzy off Lynch -1. I need some time to evaluate the claim. I'm not fully buying it because vig is something scum could easily claim.

[Urzassedatives]

Bullshit.

Who thinks we use the pie method here?

I do. I do.

[Urzassedatives]

There is literally no reason why a one shot vig would not claim right away when pressured. Literally zip. Fear of being outed doesn't play into the decision at all, because the scum wont waste a kill on you because you are likely to just use your one shot that night.

This claim smells absolutely terrible.

[petroleumjelly]

Mod: when a pro-town player with a role dies, is the role going to be revealed? If not...why not?

Answer: A player with a power role will not be revealed to have had a power role in this game.

There is another well-kept secret mafia site that I have been at, and they have used mechanics similar to this to great effect. By having a semi-open set-up that does not reveal power roles, it forces new variables into the decision of when to claim and how to play power roles, and there seems to me a better chance that the results of such a game are based more on skill than on luck than they would be without such a mechanic. I would go into more detail, but I feel this is already too much information and probably more appropriate for a "mod commentary" when the game finishes.

[Mizzy]

There is literally no reason why a one shot vig would not claim right away when pressured. Literally zip. Fear of being outed doesn't play into the decision at all, because the scum wont waste a kill on you because you are likely to just use your one shot that night.

This claim smells absolutely terrible.

Good idea, just ignore the entire reason I gave. You don't have to agree with my reason, but I have one. So shut up.

[Battousai]

I believe that means there is an equal chance that Battousai/Axelrod are town or that Mizzy is scum. (assuming discounting that scum could have deliberately submitted no-kill).

Just want to bring up a note on Ort. His goal, after knowing there was a correct doc/roleblock could have been to out the rb/doc.

Yes, the whole thing was an elaborate ruse to out the rb/doc even though I am the roleblocker and I claimed at the start of day two (although apparently neither you nor Mizzy noticed this???)

That must of came out wrong. I meant that, if I don't make it through the night for the remaining players not to dismiss that you could be scum. Also, why does you claiming have anything to do with it? In this setup, anyone could have claimed RB any time they want, especially under pressure. Now if you were scum, you could have planned on saying you used your last shot today, so you can have a defense of not being killed at night as "not a threat to scum." With the lack of a night kill, it could serve as a double bonus to get someone lynched (Mizzy is the obv choice since you claimed to think she is scum) and to out the powerrole that canceled out the night kill.