Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[MafiaSSK]

If Bd2 and Be2 are the main options, I'll

Move: Be2

.

Sorry. This will not be counted. I'll gather up all the votes and such and then end the day by today's end.

[Awesome Pants]

For your information:

Moves
Bd2(4)-SensFan,Pesco47,Abstract Actuary,The Central Scruitinizer
Be2(4)-Veerus,Indigo Heron, sirdanilot
Qb3(1)-Goatrevolt

People
Veerus(1)-The Central Scrutinizer
Pesco47(1)-Veerus

[Awesome Pants]

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Current chess board

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2

Night actions due in 48 hours.

[Awesome Pants]

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Current chess board

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5

[Indigo Heron]

For obvious reasons (I already explained what would happen earlier, around December the 28th)...

move: Qb3

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Qb3

Black isn't making optimal moves. This is something that could come in handy when we start playing mafia.

[Indigo Heron]

I'm sorry, typo.

Unmove, Move:Qd3

[Indigo Heron]

I'm sorry, typo.

Unmove, Move:Qd3

@AA: What? Is there a better move for Black than b5?

[Abstract Actuary]

d5 looked much better to me than b5 for black. Also, Qb3 looks much better to me than Qd3. I think we should wait until a few more people weigh in before we discuss anything. If a large majority want one move or the other, then we should just play it without discussion. Force them to go into this next move with a smaller idea of our plan and how to follow up against these moves.

[Lawrencelot]

Move: Qb3

[veerus]

Hm.. both Qb3 and Qd3 leave us in an equally undesirable situation. The following Qb3 follow-up will likely result in an exchange that will open up the board but will leave us a pawn down.. do we really want to do that? Or are those voting for Qb3 not planning on capturing the pawn next move?

>

Current chess board

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qb3 Bb7 13. Bxb4 Bxf3 14. gxf3 Bxb4 15. Qxb4 Nd5 16. Qd6 Qh4

[Indigo Heron]

And here I thought this was a no-brainer. Had you guys wanted to move to Qb3, you should have done it on move 11, not move 12. It is simply a move too late...

11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qb3 (or perhaps 13. Qxf5) Kh8 14. Bd3 Bb7 15. Bxf5 Rc8 16. Ne5 Ne4 17. Bxe4 Bxe4 18. O-O Rxc2.

That was what I refuted as a (quite possibly) a best case scenario for us WAY back around post #530. Unless someone wishes to prove me otherwise...

Now, if we take 12. Qb3,

11. Bd2 b5 12. Qb3 Bb7 13. Ne5 Bd5 14. Qh3 O-O 15. Bd3 Ne4 16. Bxe4 Bxe4 17. Qb3 d5 18. O-O Qd6 19. Rfe1 Rac8 20. Rac1 Rfe8

From my PoV, White is in a worse position against Black than we are had we moved 12. Qd3.

In any case, I'm looking at the aggressive-looking Qxf5, which may be something that could help give us an advantage.

Note: The lines above were taken to and re-asserted from post #530.

[Goatrevolt]

In any case, I'm looking at the aggressive-looking Qxf5, which may be something that could help give us an advantage.

Deja vu? Qxf5 is not an option here.

Indigo is correct, though. I tried to find a better scenario for the lines he posted and could not do so. Based on that, Qd3 seems superior to Qb3. The only other option is Qe2, which seems to be strictly inferior to Qd3.

Move Qd3

[Indigo Heron]

Qxf5 later, after Qd3. You can see it in the notations in my previous post.

11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qb3 (or perhaps 13. Qxf5) Kh8...

[Goatrevolt]

Qxf5 later, after Qd3. You can see it in the notations in my previous post.

11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qb3 (or perhaps 13. Qxf5) Kh8...

Ah, gotcha. I remember looking at that line and deciding it was bad, but I can't remember the exact reasons why. I'll have to check again.

[Abstract Actuary]

Hm.. both Qb3 and Qd3 leave us in an equally undesirable situation. The following Qb3 follow-up will likely result in an exchange that will open up the board but will leave us a pawn down.. do we really want to do that? Or are those voting for Qb3 not planning on capturing the pawn next move?

>

Current chess board

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qb3 Bb7 13. Bxb4 Bxf3 14. gxf3 Bxb4 15. Qxb4 Nd5 16. Qd6 Qh4

We aren't a pawn down in this position. In fact we are a pawn up (although about to lose one back).

[Indigo Heron]

He didn't say this position. He meant the position later. In any case, please refer to post #530 for all the stupid things that will happen with 12. Qb3.

[Abstract Actuary]

He didn't say this position. He meant the position later.

There is no later forced position where we are down a pawn that I can see. As a matter of fact, I like the position he shows (which may not involve optimal moves for either white or black) a lot better than our current position.

In any case, please refer to post #530 for all the stupid things that will happen with 12. Qb3.

Why does everyone insist on talking so dramatically like they've always 100% refuted a line when they haven't even come close? In your own post below you say "There may be better moves than this" and then "but the position obviously gets us nowhere". That is nowhere near "all the stupid things that will happen".

In addition, your 530 is a line that involved Qd3, then Qb3. So (1) it absolutely does not apply to playing Qb3 first and (2) is an absolute waste of an analysis, because we would never play Qd3 and then Qb3. Like you said "there may be better moves".

11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qb3 Kh8 14. Bd3 Bb7 15. Bxf5 Rc8 16. Ne5 Ne4 17. Bxe4 Bxe4 18. O-O Rxc2

e4 c5 Nc3 Nc6 f4 e6 Nf3 f5 exf5 exf5 Qe2 Be7 Nd5 Nb4 Nxb4 cxb4 d4 Nf6 Qc4 a6 Bd2 b5 Qd3 O-O Qb3 Kh8 Bd3 Bb7 Bxf5 Rc8 Ne5 Ne4 Bxe4 Bxe4 O-O Rxc2

That's on my piece of paper. There may be better moves than this, but this position obviously gets us nowhere, in my opinion.

[Indigo Heron]

Then, Veerus tried to argue the move 13. Qb3, which I provided in the next post.

Now that I think of it...whoops!

On the other hand, I think that Qd3, then Qxf5 is looking good for me. Let me nail down any irregularities first, and I'll provide something concrete from move 12 to move 18-19.

[Indigo Heron]

EDIT: When I say 'Whoops!', I meant that the analysis for going immediately to Qb3 was in my next post.

[veerus]

Qd3 can be answered with d5 or g6. Black wouldn't castle.

Also, I didn't realize that in my earlier analysis, but AA is right - we are a pawn up before black gets that pawn back. My reservations about that position is that our king is under pressure from the black knight/queen combo. The position I posted puts us in a real jam after 17...Nxf4 or Qf2 depending on where the king moves. On the other hand, 17. Kd1 kind of neutralizes both of those moves at the cost of locking one of our rooks in the corner for a while which isn't great either... hmm (just thinking out loud here)

I guess the point is that both moves are bleak but there may be some hope for getting out of this jam in a few moves. I'm still torn between Qd3 and Qb3 as both delay black castling for a turn and put pressure on a different pawn. I've played out one possible scenario for Qb3. Still need to examine 12. Qb3 a5.

Also 12. Qd3 followed by g6, d5 and Bb7 (with the threat of Be4 if Qxf5)

[veerus]

EDIT: When I say 'Whoops!', I meant that the analysis for going immediately to Qb3 was in my next post.

erm what?

[Indigo Heron]

I see a break for d5 that may be advantageous to us. I am reluctant to reveal it, though, and allow Black the pleasure of already having their moves calculated and analysed for them.

I am still analysing 12. ...g6, though.

[Goatrevolt]

I see a break for d5 that may be advantageous to us. I am reluctant to reveal it, though, and allow Black the pleasure of already having their moves calculated and analysed for them.

I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about. It's best not to mention it, although I think the damage may be done simply by nature of pointing out that there is such a move set.

I think much of our current discussion is harmful. All of the discussion is based around what we do after we play Qd3 and how black might respond to Qd3, etc. which isn't exactly helping us any unless it's actually affecting whether or not we SHOULD play Qd3, and to my understanding, it isn't. If we can all agree that we should play Qd3, we should simply play it, and shut up about how black might respond.

[Goatrevolt]

Actually, here's an idea:

If you see a positive line for white, which I'll call X, don't point it out, but rather suggest you think moving the first move of X is our best move.

If you see a negative move set for us, go ahead and point it out, as we don't want to make that move anyway (I think we should play from the assumption that black makes the best move they have available).

Thoughts?