Mafia 90-Lolwat? Mafia, Game Over, Mafia Win

[Yosarian2]

Agreed.

PoS is clearly trying to understand why SC and Gn are so hesitant to get on the KoC's wagon, or to even speak ill of him, when they were both so willing to lynch her for the exact same reason. She's looking for possible scum connections. "Prove that if I really think you're scummier then him blah blah blah" is not a ratioanl response to that; of course if you really think that, then it makes sesne, but a more useful response would be for you to explain WHY you think PoS is scummer then KoC, if that is still what you think, StrangerCoug.

[Knight of Cydonia]

The widows that refuse to die
Shall be dressed in three-piece and bow tie
and be forced to kick whilst they hang high
in this vicious cabaret.

[Yosarian2]

Can we please just lynch this guy already and move on? He's clearly not goign to do anything else that might help us figure out his alignment, and there's like a 80% he's scum and a 20% chance he's a vanillia townie who's going to be useless for the rest of the game.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Ah! At last, the 2009 show!
The ballet upon the burning stage!
Poems upon a cRumpled page!
The documentary seen on fractured screen.

[Yosarian2]

Honestly, Yos, no. I have no desire to do any of that. Call me scummy for it, but considering how so few people in this game have done anything to back up their opinions, I'm tired of being questioned so hard by people.

unvote

I'll admit, this is coming from frustration. This game is just way too much work, mostly because the overly aggressive style from many players has made it really hard for those of us who focus on logic and evidence to keep up. it's way too much work for something that's just supposed to be fun. I'm going to take a back seat for now and when I'm caught up enough to help, I will. Until then, screw it.

Well, fine, just understand that if you don't do a real analysis on KoC sometime between now and when we lynch him today (and I'm pretty sure we are going to lynch him today, at this point), that's it is going to make you look bad tommorow, especally if he's scum, but either way really.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Certainty is a marvelous thing,
Secreted from the bastard's poison ring,
And as the canary gaily sings,
The fumes are growing thicker.

[StrangerCoug]

"Prove that if I really think you're scummier then him blah blah blah" is not a ratioanl response to that; of course if you really think that, then it makes sesne, but a more useful response would be for you to explain WHY you think PoS is scummer then KoC, if that is still what you think, StrangerCoug.

I'm not asking Penguins of the Serengeti that one person is scummier than another. I'm asking her to prove actions as scummy. When I start a sentence with the words "Prove that..." I really mean "Give evidence that..." Clear to everybody?

I want Penguins of the Serengeti dead for her flailing around, OMGUS attacks, etc., but if Knight of Cydonia doesn't stop making fluff posts and start scumhunting, I will seriously reconsider my vote.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Ah! At last, the 2009 show!
The ballet upon the burning stage!
Poems upon a cRumpled page!
The documentary seen on fractured screen.

The torch-lit song no-one ever sings!
The curfew chorus line whose voice rings!
The vulgar comedy turned divine!
Listen now, in four-four time!

[Penguins of the Serengeti]

I'm not asking Penguins of the Serengeti that one person is scummier than another. I'm asking her to prove actions as scummy

Same difference. Actions cannot be proven as scummy until after the player is dead and the alignment revealed. Nor can 'evidence that actions are scummy' can be provided. Scummy means inductive of suspicion. What I find most suspicious is to see players do what I've seen my scumbuddies do with regularity in other games. It's experience. It's what I observe over and over. I can't prove anything. One thing I do see often is scum pretending to be oblivious to common sense observations, in order to stick to their agenda. I do often see scum treating townies and buddies differently for the same actions. One thing I rarely see them do, is to be as hell-bent for lynching a particular townie as you are, especially one that is not a power role. So I explained what I found scummy about you, and what I felt was less scummy about you. Demanding this kind of burden of proof on this sort of statement is unreasonable.

You're not asking that of anyone else, for instance, you're not grilling KoC's poetic little feet. You're gently coaching him, now under threat of a vote, but you're not demanding that he proves things, explain himself, you're not truly challenging specific aspects of his behavior. Just generalities, like the one below:

...but if Knight of Cydonia doesn't stop making fluff posts and start scumhunting, I will seriously reconsider my vote.

And what about Empking? He doesn't have to stop making fluff posts and scum hunt?

I see glaring double standards.

[Yosarian2]

"Prove that if I really think you're scummier then him blah blah blah" is not a ratioanl response to that; of course if you really think that, then it makes sesne, but a more useful response would be for you to explain WHY you think PoS is scummer then KoC, if that is still what you think, StrangerCoug.

I'm not asking Penguins of the Serengeti that one person is scummier than another. I'm asking her to prove actions as scummy. When I start a sentence with the words "Prove that..." I really mean "Give evidence that..." Clear to everybody?

I'm not really sure what you mean by "prove an action is scummy"/

Not to answer for her, but if it seems clear to me person X is obvscum, and person Y seems strangely hesitant about voting person X, I will comment on it, and consider it as a possible link between the two (that is, if X comes up scum, then Y looks bad). Didn't you realize that that's what Penguins was doing?

Now, if you have a logical reason why you think Penguins is more likely to be scum then KoC, or why you otherwise didn't want to vote for KoC, that would be a good response for you to make. However, "prove that it's scummy for me to not vote X" is not a good response for you to make. Clear?

[Penguins of the Serengeti]

...and a crap vote on EmpKing's Alt to boot.

And why the defense of Empking? Is Empking even defensible?

[Penguins of the Serengeti]

At the moment I see a scum team with Litral, Koichi, and Empking.

I could see KoC and SC being scum, too.

[Penguins of the Serengeti]

@GnKoichi

You wrote the below on Jan 15.

That conversation was tied to my analysis that Coug was faking misreads in order to cover his scumminess.

Do you think Coug is still faking misreads, or faking other kinds of failure of understanding?

[Penguins of the Serengeti]

@GnKoichi

I did re-check your posts and you have not previously expressed suspicion of Yos. Your sudden and recent vote for him was quite a shocker.

[orangepenguin]

KoC, if you have just given up on this game AND are town, why don't you just request replacement, and do the town a favor? Your little poetry is..uh, "lovely and all" to read in the high-stressed environment of a mafia game, but it's not helping! The self-vote and the not helping on purpose seems to indicate to me that KoC has gave up in general, and not dependent on his alignment.

PotS has pointed out that Empking has done basically the same thing, except that Empking doesn't appear to have given up and want out - Empking is just posting anti-town posts with very vague questions that don't really help us (@rofl: Why do you like Penguins? WHY?). I don't like that comment that Penguins is pursuing a crap wagon on Empking from StrangerCoug. That seemed a bit off.

vote: Empking

[Yosarian2]

Guys: we're not seriously letting KoC off the hook here without even a coherent response from him, are we?

[roflcopter]

yos: well i'm certainly not

[StrangerCoug]

I'm not asking Penguins of the Serengeti that one person is scummier than another. I'm asking her to prove actions as scummy

Same difference. Actions cannot be proven as scummy until after the player is dead and the alignment revealed. Nor can 'evidence that actions are scummy' can be provided. Scummy means inductive of suspicion. What I find most suspicious is to see players do what I've seen my scumbuddies do with regularity in other games. It's experience. It's what I observe over and over. I can't prove anything. One thing I do see often is scum pretending to be oblivious to common sense observations, in order to stick to their agenda. I do often see scum treating townies and buddies differently for the same actions. One thing I rarely see them do, is to be as hell-bent for lynching a particular townie as you are, especially one that is not a power role. So I explained what I found scummy about you, and what I felt was less scummy about you. Demanding this kind of burden of proof on this sort of statement is unreasonable.

Seeing as I'm finding it pointless to continue this line of argument, I'm going to drop it.

You're not asking that of anyone else, for instance, you're not grilling KoC's poetic little feet. You're gently coaching him, now under threat of a vote, but you're not demanding that he proves things, explain himself, you're not truly challenging specific aspects of his behavior. Just generalities, like the one below:

...but if Knight of Cydonia doesn't stop making fluff posts and start scumhunting, I will seriously reconsider my vote.

And what about Empking? He doesn't have to stop making fluff posts and scum hunt?

My not mentioning somebody does not necessarily mean I am giving them a free pass. Knight of Cydonia is closer to being lynched than Empking the last time I checked. The former's fluff posts are also more blatant as he is making zero attempt to try. If Empking learns by example, then I'm sure he'll realize what's going on with Knight of Cydonia and change his ways, but as I said I generally go after the person I find scummiest.

...and a crap vote on EmpKing's Alt to boot.

And why the defense of Empking? Is Empking even defensible?

I already addressed this at #635.

[Penguins of the Serengeti]

First of all, you can't accuse her of "question dodging" when she's responding to a post where EmpKing asked Rotfl why he thinks Penguins is town. That doesn't make sense, since she can't and shouldn't answer a question, directed at someone else, about what he thinks about her.

And secondly; a crap vote on EmpKing? Really? In several of her recent posts, she's been pointing out the fairly low amount and quality of contributions he's made this game. Do you disagree with that? You're trying to make it sound like this is a vote she's given no reason for, and that's clearly not true.

I misinterpreted the post as yet another OMGUS attack as I felt the original question to be perfectly legitimate. It also wasn't clear to me that she was attacking Empking's Alt's minimal contributions, but rereading her post, it makes sense that that's what she's doing. The inconsistency argument against her (her calling me ScumCougar and then questioning my scumminess, especially in the same post) still stands, however, and I still think it's clear that Penguins of the Serengeti is a drama queen to say the least.

You mean, I should find the answer to the question in the above nonsencial gibberish? Maybe I've hit the bottle of Bailey's too hard, but whuuuut? My pointing out of Empking's abysmal performace is OMGUS??? Whauuut? And how is calling you "ScumCougar and then questioning [your] scumminess, especially in the same post" inconsistent??? Ugh??? Ever heard of getting mixed signals? And what does that have to do with Empking?

You're still not explaining why you're DEFENDING Empking.

[StrangerCoug]

First of all, you can't accuse her of "question dodging" when she's responding to a post where EmpKing asked Rotfl why he thinks Penguins is town. That doesn't make sense, since she can't and shouldn't answer a question, directed at someone else, about what he thinks about her.

And secondly; a crap vote on EmpKing? Really? In several of her recent posts, she's been pointing out the fairly low amount and quality of contributions he's made this game. Do you disagree with that? You're trying to make it sound like this is a vote she's given no reason for, and that's clearly not true.

I misinterpreted the post as yet another OMGUS attack as I felt the original question to be perfectly legitimate. It also wasn't clear to me that she was attacking Empking's Alt's minimal contributions, but rereading her post, it makes sense that that's what she's doing. The inconsistency argument against her (her calling me ScumCougar and then questioning my scumminess, especially in the same post) still stands, however, and I still think it's clear that Penguins of the Serengeti is a drama queen to say the least.

You mean, I should find the answer to the question in the above nonsencial gibberish? Maybe I've hit the bottle of Bailey's too hard, but whuuuut? My pointing out of Empking's abysmal performace is OMGUS??? Whauuut?

Sober up and read the first two sentences of what I said again.

You're still not explaining why you're DEFENDING Empking.

Because I haven't been since I realized I misinterpreted your post as OMGUS.

[Penguins of the Serengeti]

So Empking can get away with it because my vote wasn't OMGUS?

[StrangerCoug]

So Empking can get away with it because my vote wasn't OMGUS?

No; it is perfectly acceptable to attack a player that isn't helping the town. What makes you think that I'm letting Empking be unhelpful?

[Penguins of the Serengeti]

No; it is perfectly acceptable to attack a player that isn't helping the town.

On a scale of 0-100, with 0 being completely unhelpful, and 100 being super helpful, how would you rate the following players?

Yosarian2
Empking
KoC
Litral

[StrangerCoug]

No; it is perfectly acceptable to attack a player that isn't helping the town.

On a scale of 0-100, with 0 being completely unhelpful, and 100 being super helpful, how would you rate the following players?

Yosarian2

I'd say somewhere in the 60's. He has set me off, but has done very few major things.

Empking

I see some pro-town posts looking at him in isolation, but very few. I'll give him a 25.

KoC

0. Enough said.

Litral

He was OK in the beginning, but brought up the jester argument for no good reason, and then seems to have disappeared. 10 or so.

[Penguins of the Serengeti]

Ah, OK. Even if I'm confused with what you choose to emphasize in your posts, and how you word things, at least your numbers match with my own evaluations, except for the small difference that I'd put Yosarian higher up on the scale.