Mafia 87 - New Age Mafia - Game Over!

[Vi]

@Jazzmyn 723: Are you serious? He forgot you claimed. (So did I.) Does that make him scummy?

Given what I was expected to see... I am inclined not to believe Huntress' claim. I was expecting a power role claim.

Why?

@Huntress & Jazzmyn: I've explained a few times how Tarhalindur (and by extension Tom Mason) are confirmed innocent. I'm not willing to say they're squeaky or clean by their play, BUT you need to counter that argument if you're going to continue to suggest they are scum.

@Darox: Exist. Meaningfully, preferably.

@Rhinox: Iunno, you might be getting a prod

-----

The rest of this post, looking at Jazzmyn's defense, is forthcoming. Apologies for the wait, etc.

[Tarhalindur]

I do not have time to respond to Jazzmyn's defense in full at this time. I will note now that it is the most reasonable defense I have seen from Jazzmyn all game - I could see that defense coming from a pro-town Jazzmyn.

Unvote

pending answers to some questions.

Jazzmyn: Would you disagree with me when I say that it is possible for two different pro-town players to arrive at different, equally valid interpretations of the same words? In addition, if a player argues that another player is scum due to an interpretation of the second player's posts that is different from the interpretation intended by the second player, must this necessarily be misrepresentation or can this be a simple misunderstanding?

Now, some other matters to attend to:

Quick post to say I'm a Vanilla Townie (a Vi-Town, if you will).

Huntress is correct that Vanilla Townie is an all-around awesome role to have. After being a Doctor in so many games, I can say with confidence that Vanilla is a step up.

Will read over the rest of what's been said when I wake up.

I have rather large issues with this claim. Remember when I said I had a player I was 90% sure was going to claim Vig? That player was Vi. Observe the following posts...

But what is to stop Tar-scum taking advantage of the fact that there was a third kill N2 by claiming a kill that he made was actually a vig-kill?

I think that this concern can be settled tomorrow under certain conditions. (Not that I want to say what they are aloud until then.)

We need more Huntress (from 643) and ZazieR (from 635) ITT. Tarhalindur too, although he's fresh out of access - I'm interested in his choice of night action.

Vi, explain these posts, and the former comment in particular. NOW.

Mod: Please prod Rhinox

[Jazzmyn]

@Jazzmyn 723: Are you serious? He forgot you claimed. (So did I.) Does that make him scummy?

When someome specifically requests a claim, receives a claim in response to his specific request and then later purports not to have noticed and pretends not to have asked, yes, I think that indicates scumminess indeed. Why do you think otherwise?

Don't you think it strange that someone would specifically ask for a claim from a specific person and later purport to have no knowledge of having asked for same, and purport to have no knowledge of having received a direct response, even when both the request and the response are right there for everyone to see?

If not, why not?

Regards,
Jazz

[Rhinox]

Mod: Please prod Rhinox

/in before prod

No need. I had a RL issue pop up unexpectedly that prevented me from finishing my read of the thread. I have about 8 pages left to go. I have been reading the current discussion as well... I wanted to finish reading the thread before claiming to see why mass claiming right now is so important.

[OhGodMyLife]

Second Vote Count of Day 4

Jazzmyn (1) -- Tom Mason

Not Voting (6) -- Vi, Jazzmyn, Huntress, Darox, Rhinox, Tarhalindur

With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch!

[Darox]

Mod: Please prod Rhinox

/in before prod

No need. I had a RL issue pop up unexpectedly that prevented me from finishing my read of the thread. I have about 8 pages left to go. I have been reading the current discussion as well... I wanted to finish reading the thread before claiming to see why mass claiming right now is so important.

A claim in the next post would be much appreciated.

[Tarhalindur]

Mod: Please prod Rhinox

/in before prod

No need. I had a RL issue pop up unexpectedly that prevented me from finishing my read of the thread. I have about 8 pages left to go. I have been reading the current discussion as well... I wanted to finish reading the thread before claiming to see why mass claiming right now is so important.

No, you're going to claim, NOW. If you don't, you need to die. Understood?

I am a vanilla townie.

@ Tarhalindur: Did your role PM say anything about the sanity of your cop investigation?

My role PM does not make any explicit mention of my sanity (it just lists what they are). That said, I see no reason to doubt my sanity despite the lack of mod confirmation - I've NEVER seen a non-Sane JoaT in any game, let alone a normal, and if such a role existed I would expect the sanity issues to extend to all abilities instead of just the investigation (for much the same reason that random cop is frowned upon - a JoaT with an ineffective investigation and reliable other abilities has no way of learning that his investigation may be unreliable, unlike a Naive or Insane Cop who can get more than one chance to investigate.)

Response to Jazzmyn still coming, assuming I have time before deadline.

Note (I'll be putting up as much as I can before deadline here): So far, we have the following revealed roles and the following claims:

- Tracker x2 (farside22, iamausername)
- Weak Doctor x1 (curiouskarmadog)
- Jack of All Trades x1 (investigate, protect, kill, roleblock*) (Tarhalindur)
- 2x Grave Digger (either Miller-equivalent or Janitor**) (strife22, Percy Mk. I)
- 10x Vanilla Townie (DerHammer, Percy Mk. II, Scheherazade, armlx, Jahudo, Jazzmyn, Huntress, Tom Mason, Vi, Darox)
1x unclaimed (Rhinox)

* - for those of you who need/want a refresher, my predecessor used no action N0, investigated Tom Mason (innocent) N1, and vigged Scheherazade N2; I used my doc protect on myself last night (my protect could self-target) and still have my roleblock.
** - I've seen Grave Digger used in the past to refer to a role that can remove dead bodies from graveyards at night; that said, since OGML coined the use of the term to refer to a tracker-miller, I think that these players were of the tracker-miller variant.

There is a base of two kills in the setup, one of which is presumably the Mafia kill and one of which is unaccounted for pending the last claim.

The immediately obvious conclusion to me, considering the lack of power roles and probable presence of 2(!) Millers, is that this setup is almost certainly NOT 14-5, as that setup is somewhat balanced against the town unless balanced by significant power roles. The setup might actually be 15-4 if Rhinox is Vig, given the lack of power (weak power roles + Millers + a scum power role or two might balance the numerical advantage town has in that scenario), but I have my doubts and we shouldn't focus on that scenario at any rate (if the setup is 15-4 we are NOT at LyLo and have room for another mislynch; 14-4-1 only has a little wiggle room after a mislynch (none if a scum has NK immunity or a RB) and 13-3-3 has none (in fact, in 13-3-3 we need help just to have a chance to win)).

More later - hopefully Rhinox claims in the very near future.

[Huntress]

@Huntress & Jazzmyn: I've explained a few times how Tarhalindur (and by extension Tom Mason) are confirmed innocent. I'm not willing to say they're squeaky or clean by their play, BUT you need to counter that argument if you're going to continue to suggest they are scum.

I've got a reply to this written out, but I want to see Rhinox's claim before I post it.

Preview edit: I see Tar has just posted some of what I was going to say.

[Rhinox]

aaaah... I wanna claim, but something is bugging me... screw it.. part of this game is taking chances, and I'm about to take a big one.

<cliffhanger, until the end of the post>

Alright, alright, easy on the pitchforks. I kinda messed up. I prepared two posts at work in notepad, and meant to email them to myself to finish them up at home tonight, but I forgot to do that. Bear with me as I'm re-typing up what took me a while to prepare earlier.

First part, I had some formalities. Those can be belayed for now, as the hour is a bit late for formalities.

I went on to a general feeling on all living players...

Tarhalindur/Doomcow: I really want to not believe Tar, but I can't find a reason to disprove his claim. After finishing up my read, I went back through DC's posts searching for any sort of breadcrumb, and found it quite odd that DC didn't mention Tom Mason even once after he investigated him. DC even did a couple analysis/summary posts, and not once didn't think to mention Tom even once. This doesn't prove anything, but doesn't do anything to support Tar's claim either. Of course, the missing kill from last night basically confirms tar's claim that he self-protected last night to save himself from a mafia kill IMO, since I have "knowledge". More info on that, keep reading (yes, I'm being a bastard to make sure you all read my post )

However, all the setup speculating Tar has done makes me nervous. The only Meta I have on Tar, he replaced in, did some setup speculating, made a fake claim I wouldn't have expected scum to make, and was indeed scum. The only way Tar can be mafia, however, is if he convinced his team not to kill last night to "prove" his one shot doc role. I'm doubting that, although I have a thing for conspiracies, and I'm still thinking Tar is town like he says.

Tom Mason: If Tar is town, then Tom Mason is town, or GF. Based on the roles in this game, GF seems to only further unbalance the game in the scums favor, so I'm pretty confident in saying Tom Mason=town, despite a couple posts from him that I didn't like. I won't go into that now though because it wouldn't serve any purpose.

Vi: leaning scum for meta reasons only. When Vi is town, hell hath no fury like Vi's wrath, when Vi is scum hunting. I didn't see that type of play in my read, so either Vi is playing more conservative (legit possibility), or Vi is having trouble fabricating cases with the same intensity as when actually scum hunting.

Jazz/huntress: mostly unsure... I suspect jass more than huntress for the hammer jazz through. It was for a very shotty reason, and quite suspect considering the deadline was just extended. The only thing I have against huntress is that she is dead set on the idea that Tar and Tom are both scum, and Jazz is town.

Darox:

DIE SCUM

I mean, leaning heavy scum due to completely non-existant scum hunting since replacing in, while doing things like that vote pattern analysis, which ironically wasn't so much an analysis as orginization of information we all have readily available. Seriously, look at his posts in isolation. It becomes quite obvious then. He hasn't given a single opinion on anybody. NOT 1! Here, this is the post where he's getting serious:

Right. Right? RIGHT.

Let's get down to business.

Huntress, could you please provide what you believe to be a summary of the state of the day and the players in general?

Zaizer, you too.

As for the state of today, I think we are in conditional LyLo. There still appears to be two killing abilities in play, so the potential for (cross kills/successful vigging) still exists, as well as of course any successful blocking, but any wrong turn of events easily screws us over, so for all intents and purposes it should be treated as lylo.

All he did was ask for vague opinions from Zaz and huntress, and posted a paragraph of IIoA, which I'm suprised hasn't been pointed out by Tar yet. Then we have that Vote analysis, which although I'm sure must have taken awhile, doesn't actually say anything at all. It reaks to me of trying to appear to be doing something pro-town, but in reality is doing absolutely nothing.

Darox, do you have any conclusions to be drawn from your vote "analysis", or was it just an attempt to look pro-town without actually saying anything?

Aside from that, he's promised big posts and comments many times, but has given none, and has agreed with Tar about mass claiming, and claimed vanilla. Darox has not done a single thing I would consider scum hunting.

Caboose needs a closer look into, but a quick browse tells me that he seemed to be acting pro-town, but nothing he did would have made me comfortable in calling him town. Scum try to look pro-town, so he was either playing well as scum, or appropriately as town. However, I can't look at anything caboose said and say to myself, caboose wouldn't have said that unless he was actually town.

vote: Darox

Now for the part everyone's been waiting for...

I am a vig

Here's Zazie's targets:

N0 - Xtoxm
N1 - strife220
N2 - Percy II
N3 - iamausername

As I'm not zaz, I can't give any insight as to why zaz made the choices she did, other than I would have policy vigged Xtorm myself

Obviously, since I know zaz made the only kill last night, I know that the mafia either decided not to kill last night (unlikely), or the kill was blocked somehow (a la tar's one-shot self-doc).

I'm not sure of a typical setup for a large game like this, which was why I was asking for anything I should know about large games when I replaced in. With my role knowledge, I've been reading this entire time under the assumption that 2 mafia families is all but impossible given the kills, and an sk is only possible if they haven't been killing every night. Therefore, I consider it a safe assumption that the only scum remaining are from 1 mafia family, and there are only 2 or 3 scum. I've been thinking 3 scum remainging made sense, but Tar's last post is convincing me that 2 might make more sense. If I believe Tar, that means tom is also town. That means either 2 or 3 of Vi, Jazz, huntress, and Darox are scum. Darox makes the most sense for the reasons I've stated, and I'd believe that any of the other 3 could be the last scum.

Now, if Tar is telling the truth, he has another night action left. I'm trying to work out what to do, and my opinion changes based on whether or not we're currentlt 5-2 or 4-3. If we're 4-3 and we mislynch today, I'm vigging and hoping that tar can block the mafia nk Its a crapshoot, but the only option. If we're 4-3 and we lynch scum, then I have a tough decision to make, since vigging incorrectly puts the town in an unwinable situation. If we're 5-2 and we mislynch, its the same as if we're 4-3 and we lynch scum. If we're 5-2 and we lynch scum, I might as well vig because even if I miss, it becomes 2-1, and if I don't vig, it becomes 3-1 which is pretty much a no lynch to get it down to 2-1 anyways.

So basically, I'm going to be nked tonight, unless ballsy scum are going to give me 2 more chances to vig someone instead of just 1 more chance on my way out. scum don't have a rb, or else tar would either be dead now, or there would have been a mafia kill last night and tar would have been rbed. Basically, lynching me would be a stupid idea today because of this. If Darox is not lynched today, I'm probably vigging him. So, Darox, if you have anything you want to say to change my mind, you have just over 24 hours to convince me. I'm not really interested in hearing what anyone else has to say about it, since at least 1/3 of the 6 of you are scum. I'm comfortable saying this because it also gives us a chance to prove a role or 2. I.E. if tar doesn't think Darox is scum, then he could use his RB ability to prevent the kill. I'll still have to die because I'm a big threat to the mafia. Therefore, if I'm dead tomorrow, and Darox doesn't die, then Tar's role is confirmed and by extension, Tom. Unfortunaltely, crazy WIFOM will undoubtably ensue if Tar lets me kill Darox and Darox ends up being town, if that doesn't end the game.

Basically, to summarize, scum have to kill me. I'm planning on killing Darox tonight, and I'm giving a player I think to be town, Tar, a chance to think about Darox and decide to let me vig him, or to block my kill and prove his role when I'm dead tomorrow and Darox lives.

What was bothering me at the beginning of the post is that mafia targetting Tar last night doesn't make any sense. Killing Tar would have basically confirmed Tom as town. But the scum knew tar had a doc ability and could self protect, so did tar just out wifom the mafia, or is Tar the mafia...

[Darox]

And there we have it.

When the mass claim started I was certain one player was going to claim vig, and I was pretty sure you were the one who was going to. I also think that you are the serial killer.

I'd like to point out this little gem as a counterpoint to your target list.

Juls, you forget that it's way unlikely that the goon was killed by a pro-town powerrole. The only one who could do so is a vig, and if a vig killed the goon then he's stupid as the chance of hitting town was way higher than hitting town.

I wanted you to claim before I started pointing out all my suspicions, because it would obviously be a warning sign.

As for the vote count and my lack of commenting on it, I am currently double checking things to see how they match up. My initial suspicion of Zaizer being a serial killer was formed by her complete lack of activity in voting, but a quick meta check revealed such low vote density to be pretty standard for Zaizer in all the games I checked, as both town and scum.

Currently, I suspect Jazzmyn/Tom as the remaining mafia, however I'm not going to act on that suspicion nor lay a case against either of them until I properly check up on all the posts made by both of them this game as well as a quick background check of other games to make sure I'm not misreading them.

[Tarhalindur]

Okay, so there's the Vig claim (not the player I was expecting it from, though...). I'm reserving final judgment for a few more hours, but leaning towards Rhinox telling the truth.

Big question I need to ask (to players not named Rhinox...): How likely is it that ZazieR was lying about her vig theory when she posted this Day 1?

Juls, you forget that it's way unlikely that the goon was killed by a pro-town powerrole. The only one who could do so is a vig, and if a vig killed the goon then he's stupid as the chance of hitting town was way higher than hitting town.
Also, it would be strange if we would have two docs. I at least never have seen two docs in one game.

Which probably leaves a second scum group and/or a SK.
Although it's better to scumhunt, it could also be good to know which enemies we have.

Strife, what could scum gain from the answers of the question that Scheza asked?

Right now, I think that this was a lie for the purposes of keeping undercover, but I want to be sure. I'll nose around in what time I have left before deadlie, but input from someone with better meta on ZazieR would be appreciated.

However, all the setup speculating Tar has done makes me nervous. The only Meta I have on Tar, he replaced in, did some setup speculating, made a fake claim I wouldn't have expected scum to make, and was indeed scum. The only way Tar can be mafia, however, is if he convinced his team not to kill last night to "prove" his one shot doc role. I'm doubting that, although I have a thing for conspiracies, and I'm still thinking Tar is town like he says.

Just some evidence that setup speculation is a null tell for me. (I'm not being anywhere near as suicidal in this game as I was in the linked Mafia 75, but that's mainly because I'm not vanilla and haven't yet figured out a way to guarantee a win.)

Note: My big specialty is breaking setups in half, regardless of alignment.

What was bothering me at the beginning of the post is that mafia targetting Tar last night doesn't make any sense. Killing Tar would have basically confirmed Tom as town. But the scum knew tar had a doc ability and could self protect, so did tar just out wifom the mafia, or is Tar the mafia...

Actually, I can think of one way where "Mafia kills Tar and fails" makes sense: if I got an incorrect result on Tom Mason, and the Mafia attempted to kill me in order to "confirm" Tom Mason through my death. The big problems here are a) this requires a Godfather immune to my investigation (not impossible, but unlikely given how little power the town seems to have) and b) if this is the case the Mafia gambled that I wouldn't use my shield on myself last night.

(If this is the case, then the scum are probably Tom Mason and Vi.)

Vote coming once I decide whether Vi or Darox (not Jazzmyn at this point... after the tone of her last defense, I can no longer rule out the possibility that Jazzmyn is misguided town) is more likely to be scum. Case and response to Jazzmyn coming ASAP.

[Rhinox]

yeah, I forgot to mention this part (it was in the post I prepared at work).

Even if you think I'm sk, the mafia will still try to eliminate the sk. I'm still nk bait. I've already said who I'm vigging (you), so either, convince me you're not scum, or convince Tar to prevent me from killing you.

You're counterpoint is nothing but WIFOM, so nice try. just further supports that you're probably scum, if you were able to predict I was going to claim vig, and already have a counterpoint prepared. Tell me, is that not something Zaz would say to hide her role? It was actually a perfect thing to say.

Either way, I'm dead tomorrow through nk, and tar has a chance to confirm himself and Tom if he doesn't think you're scum. Its still dumb to lynch me today.

[Vi]

The short response to Jazzmyn's summary:

The "disingeniousness" post still warrants ire. Saying that you're not contemptuous and that you don't demonstrate a bad attitude is a lie, bluntly put.

In addition, I was

convinced

that iamasusername was pro-town

orly
Was it because of (567), or was there something more?

Answer this.

Separately from this, there's still quite a bit for Jazzmyn to answer for; namely in the Jahudo hammer itself,

violent interactions with a few people and none with others

, and the initial jump onto Scheherazade.

This is the one that something can be done about, but nothing HAS been done about it.
You're welcome to give your opinions on people any day now.

What you have said here very well may be correct - the guilty conscience and confirmation bias - but the important question is whether those are indicative of Town (not necessarily pro-Town). I know in her situation I wouldn't want the hammer held over my head, so I would explain it and move on. The striking part here is, as you said, the confirmation bias - that all of this is evidently Your Fault. I would definitely like to hear Jazzmyn's case in light of this.

Answer this too. What role did Tarhalindur play in "manipulating you" into hammering Jahudo?

I'm really not sure where to go here. There's no shortage of anti-Townness in your words and actions, but at the same time I'm not sure if your frustration post-hammer post was faked or not. I'm leaning toward "yes".

-----

Ribwich's first vote in the game was for Juls/Puta Puta... Then he pulled it away when there were three votes. Hardly enough for a Day One bandwagon or concern, but playing it safe maybe? Easy added a vote to Sche/Der Hammer as their votes increased.

Then on Day Two, Ribwich voted for Puta Puta first again when PP put the L-1 vote on al4xz. Highly doubt he thought PP would get lynched so easily -- and when the wagon started shifting, could he really retract his vote in haste? It would look odd. It was best to distance himself... And holding to his first vote did that.

Um, no?
Did you see why ribwich voted Juls? and would you say it was a lynchable offense?
The D2 stuff is spinning cloth IMO (or whatever the term is for it).

-----

Vi, explain these posts, and the former comment in particular. NOW.

I honestly can't remember what the "certain conditions" were, though the rest of the first quote was referring to the massclaim today. It sounds bad, but it's been a month and with this game being low priority I've lost track of what it was.

The second quote was referring to your night action, because you had two abilities that would stop NKs. I was hoping for you to be able to confirm someone else. Because you protected someone I knew was already confirmed (yourself), no such luck.

I see later that you noted that this plays into a theory where I am scum with Tom Mason-Godfather. It's the truth, though. (the reason I asked, not that me and Mason are partners)

Vote coming once I decide whether Vi or Darox (...) is more likely to be scum.

So your case on me is now that I didn't claim Vig and that I've called Tom Mason innocent all day based on obvlogic? Or am I oversimplifying?

Related question: Does the fact that I'm NOT the Vig make me scummy? If so, how, etc.

-----

When someome specifically requests a claim, receives a claim in response to his specific request and then later purports not to have noticed and pretends not to have asked, yes, I think that indicates scumminess indeed. Why do you think otherwise?

Don't you think it strange that someone would specifically ask for a claim from a specific person and later purport to have no knowledge of having asked for same, and purport to have no knowledge of having received a direct response, even when both the request and the response are right there for everyone to see?

If not, why not?

No, I don't think it's scummy. This game has dragged on for so long with so many open gaps in the middle that I'm quite understanding of people who would forget if you claimed amid the chaos D3 (considering I know I forgot).

Why are you so willing to pin something on Tom Mason? and why haven't you answered the objection about that sort of thing I've repeated so many times?

-----

/in before prod

Aww, he got out of it.

-----

A claim in the next post would be much appreciated.

I notice you haven't actually SAID anything today, outside "post forthcoming".
But at this point, you don't have to~

-----

Vi: leaning scum for meta reasons only. When Vi is town, hell hath no fury like Vi's wrath, when Vi is scum hunting. I didn't see that type of play in my read, so either Vi is playing more conservative (legit possibility), or Vi is having trouble fabricating cases with the same intensity as when actually scum hunting.

What you're saying is accurate, much as I don't want to admit it. I'll blame a lot of it on the pace of the game; coming from the point of view that Scheherazade was not scummy initially (at least not for the reasons other people were giving), a lot of the walls D1 and D2 seemed to be condensable into "ha! You misinterpreted me!". That plus the inactivity ITT basically killed whatever emotional attachment I had to this game. It's tough to play Knight Templar without religious fervor, after all. (Though I've only gotten bad results from my aggressive play so far, so perhaps it's not a bad thing that I haven't done so much of it ITT.)

Sorry for making excuses, but that's it. Stagnation goes up, apathy goes up, quality of play goes down.

-----

I am a vig

Here's Zazie's targets:

N0 - Xtoxm
N1 - strife220
N2 - Percy II
N3 - iamausername

As I'm not zaz, I can't give any insight as to why zaz made the choices she did, other than I would have policy vigged Xtorm myself

I doubt your claim. ZazieR expressed nearly no suspicion of strife. The other three are fair, but strife, an obvious pro-Town player?
Moreover, one issue with Pie-style vigging is that it

just happens

to look like what a Serial Killer would do.

If you want to get into setup balance (bleh), I disagree with everyone else about the roles. It strikes me that we've had three - and now apparently FOUR - very powerful Town roles come out, and no Mafia roles. (Granted, two of those roles died first thing, but the setup was probably not planned so that it would be OGML Mostly Mountainous.) Rhinox has already pointed out why there's likely no Mafia Roleblocker. Soo... what's left among the two or three remaining scum that could possibly be of use against two Trackers, a Doc that can confirm people, and a Vig? I think Town's overpowered with the addition of a Vig no matter what the scum have. ("Track-immunity"? It would be a first for me.) So I doubt there's a Town-side killing element in this game. Guess what that leaves.

and tar has a chance to confirm himself and Tom if he doesn't think

[Darox is]

scum. Its still dumb to lynch me today.

I'm not following your logic here.

Rhinox, lemme ask this - If Darox is lynched today, who will you vig? Remember that if there are two Mafia, a misvig means they win.

------
~~~
------

Darox is obvscum. Rhinox is looking a lot like obvSK. Jazzmyn is allbutobvscum. Huntress is absent. The rest are Town, though I wish they would act like it.

Will vote based on Rhinox's answer.

[Vi]

Also, I checked into ZazieR's meta. She was never a Vig as far as I saw, so I can't tell if Pie-vigging is in character for her.

[Tarhalindur]

I may not have time to post again before deadline, so I'm putting down my vote now.

After looking things over, I believe that Darox is likely scum (Caboose was near the top of my scum list earlier, and a combination of a lack of actual analysis from Darox until very recently and Darox's attack relying on Rhinox being SK* only reinforce this in my mind) - not as sure as I'd like to be, but since this may be my last chance to vote today I'll take what I can get.

* - which a) I doubt and I can take care of at any rate and b) looks like Selective Scumhunting to me, especially since Darox didn't offer any reasoning as to why we should lynch SK over Mafia today, especially since I can just block Rhinox tonight if needed.

Unvote, Vote: Darox

[Huntress]

First, my apologies if this isn't too coherent. I'm running a temperature, I haven't eaten or slept for more than 24 hours, my brain is all fuzzy, and I wouldn't be posting at all today if it wasn't for the deadline coming up.

Second, I'm very much a newbie at working out set-ups, but I would have thought that given the roles held by the dead players, I think it's possible that there may be an investigation-immune player to counter the cop investigation. I guess I'm going to accept that Tar's claim is probably true but Tom still looks scummy. But I don't think he's the lynch for today.

I think Rhinox is more likely to be SK than Vig so it looks like the mafia may be two out of Tom, Vi and Darox so I'm willing to go along with a lynch on Darox.

The niggles I've got against Vi are things like post 650. Why ask a question that you know the mod isn't going to answer? The only reason I can think of is that you want to make it look like you don't already know the answer.

[Vi]

If Darox is scum and lynched today, then IF Rhinox is a Vig - which still seems too convenient IMO - the game will not end regardless of what he does tonight.

If Darox is not scum, then the only candidates left are Jazzmyn and Huntress. Jazzmyn is, well, Jazzmyn. Huntress, I've developed reservations with - basically for what Tom Mason said. As of right now, it's not a duo I would rule out.

However, Tarhalindur offering to block Rhinox (a known killing element) if necessary changes things, guaranteeing that five people will survive the night.

So that takes care of my concerns.

Vote: Darox

(L-1)

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The niggles I've got against Vi are things like post 650. Why ask a question that you know the mod isn't going to answer? The only reason I can think of is that you want to make it look like you don't already know the answer.

On the other site I play on, we're told if we're in LyLo so we can

panic

plan accordingly. I thought I remembered games here that did so as well, so I asked expecting an answer.

[Rhinox]

/in before hammer

I wasn't expecting to actually convince everyone to lynch darox. It makes me wonder if votes are flying on Darox now becase I was convincing, or because scums know something I don't about Darox. But it gives me a chance for a brilliant plan...

If Darox is town, I'm vigging... someone. Since I'm afraid there are 3 scum remaining, I feel a mislynch today means the only chance of winning is if I vig correctly and Tar blocks the nk. Alternatively, if Tar so strongly feels there are only 2 scum remaining, and doesn't trust me to correctly vig scum tonight, he could block me. I will say, I was only strongly sure that Darox was scum, and would not have hesitated to vig him. The others, I'm not as confident, but I'm pretty sure I know who I would vig if darox is town... Tar, weigh my lack of confidence into your decision.

bolding to make sure this is seen. If Darox is scum, I'm vigging Tar. If Tar is telling the truth, he should block me, and confirm his role and Tom as well. If Tar dies, he was either lying, or killed by the mafia, which will leave tom confirmed for tomorrow, and me (the vig, or pro-town sk if you still doubt I'm vig by then) alive for tomorrow. Even if I am SK, this will prove tar's and tom's innocence. The only hole in this case is if Tar is scum, and mafia has a RB. Which would mean that Tar convinced the mafia not to kill last night. If this is true, then the mafia didn't RB zaz or vi last night, since zaz made the kill, and tar was convinced vi was the vig. The mafia would then be able to RB me, leave Tom and Tar alive, and kill me and make us think Tar and Tom are confirmed. This scenario i feel is unlikely, but brilliant if it is true.

I still feel the mafia will have no choice but to nk me, which if this plan works, will leave Tar and Tom confirmed IMO tomorrow, barring the unlikely scenario I mentioned just above. Also, just repeating, I am only vigging Tar if Darox is scum. If Darox is town, I'm vigging whoever's left I feel is most likely scum, and hoping Tar can block the nk, if 3 scum remain. So, Tar, all caps just to make sure this is seen, BLOCK ME IF DAROX IS SCUM, DO WHAT YOU THINK IS BEST IF DAROX IS TOWN.

I'm doing this because of the group fears that Tar and Tom are lying, and because I would not be sure enough who to vig if darox is scum, knowing that if there are 3 scum left and I vig incorrectly, its game over even if Darox is scum. Since I'm expected to be the obv nk tonight anyways, might as well do something to confirm some town players, rather than just sit by and do nothing, and get killed.

Tar might think that this will be a waste of his RB ability, but 1) that concerns that he and tom are scum are too high from too many other players, and 2) confirming 2 players is IMO not a waste of any ability. If Darox is scum, we get the wiggle room needed to be able to do this, and confirming 2 town players might just turn this game around. Best case scenario, Darox is scum, Tar blocks me, I'm nked, tomorrow its either 3-2 LyLo, or 4-1. Alternatively, Dar is scum, And scum-Tar is vigged, and we have serious conversations about lynching tom... but the setup would be 4-1.

[Huntress]

Any last words, Darox?

[Vi]

The only problem with Rhinox's plan that I see is that Tarhalindur has

already confirmed his role

. Y'know, with that extra kill N2. Nobody has been able to answer this objection so far, and I've been saying this since D3.

Don't get me wrong, it IS a brilliant plan, I'm all for safe play, and I wouldn't be upset if you carried out your plan; but it has no practical purpose.

[Rhinox]

Don't get me wrong, it IS a brilliant plan, I'm all for safe play, and I wouldn't be upset if you carried out your plan; but it has no practical purpose.

Well, Jazz and huntress still think Tar and Tom are scum... so either 1 or both of them are either scum, or misguided townies. I'm still not sure about you, Vi, and Darox has given no opinions on anyone. Also, if Darox is scum, I might otherwise choose to not kill, being afraid that if I was wrong I would cost the town the game. Finally, as tar eluded to earlier, he may block me anyways in fear that I'm sk to prevent my kill. The only thing this plan takes away is Tar's chance of blocking the mafia kill, which IMO is worth confirming 2 town players.

However, I wasn't thinking about this:

The only problem with Rhinox's plan that I see is that Tarhalindur has already confirmed his role. Y'know, with that extra kill N2. Nobody has been able to answer this objection so far, and I've been saying this since D3.

I've been thinking more along the lines of the absence of a second N3 kill, and forgot all about the extra N2 kill.

*thinking*

You're right, under normal circumstances, Tar couldn't have made that kill if he is mafia, and sk-tar doesn't explain the absence of the mafia kill last night. What do you 'spose the odds are that the mafia has some sort of one-shot kill role. might explain the lack of scum power roles, unless they just haven't been found yet. Also means the unlikely scenario for how Tar can be scum is becoming even more unlikely though...

I need an hour at the gym to think about what I'm going to do now...

unvote

to prevent a hammer while I'm thinking... will revote in my next post. I wish Tar would be able to post before today ends.

[Tom Mason]

My gut feeling tells me this is the wrong play. I did not think Caboose was scummy while he was here. But I definitely do not like how Darox was so quick with the claim after not really being deeply involved in conversation yet. However, he did what was asked.

I know for a fact who I am. I believe that Tar is who he says he is -- because it holds true to my vanilla town role.

There is no reason to doubt that Rhinox is at least a killing role. But a vigilante can make sense. We know there is more than one killing role in this game.

My remaining doubt lies with both Huntress and Jazzmyn. I would support a lynch of either of them right now. It is no secret that I have supported lynching Jazz for the better part of the day. And Huntress has really peaked my attention with her suspecting Tar and myself of both lying like this.

I have looked at both their voting, and I find things odd. In Day Three, if I could have... I would have re-voted for Jazz after I saw her vote Jahudo like that. And Huntress/ribwich seems to like to follow votes or just put a vote on a person not being pressured at all:

DAY 1 - Voted Juls early/first, retracted the vote after a third came.
DAY 1 - Put the fifth vote on Sche
DAY 2 - Voted TAX early, no one else ever voted TAX
DAY 2 - Unvoted TAX, voted Puta first (ended in lynch)
DAY 3 - Added third vote to Doomcow (when Huntress replaced in; everyone else flipped to vote Jahudo)

I would expect a townie to put more thought and question things more. I would think Huntress would have considered moving her vote, possibly even moving it around. But it really seems as if they picked a target and tried to stick it through every phase, even if everyone else thinks there might be a better direction. Is it town play? Debatable. The TAX vote stands out for me, because it went to a quick turn on Puta when he wanted to vote/ask for a claim from Sche. We cannot ask questions now about that because it was ribwich's vote, not Huntress'.

[Huntress]

If we weren't so close to deadline ... I'd be voting for Tom right now.

And Huntress/ribwich seems to like to follow votes or just put a vote on a person not being pressured at all:

DAY 1 - Voted Juls early/first, retracted the vote after a third came.
DAY 1 - Put the fifth vote on Sche
DAY 2 - Voted TAX early, no one else ever voted TAX
DAY 2 - Unvoted TAX, voted Puta first (ended in lynch)
DAY 3 - Added third vote to Doomcow (when Huntress replaced in; everyone else flipped to vote Jahudo)

I would expect a townie to put more thought and question things more. I would think Huntress would have considered moving her vote, possibly even moving it around. But it really seems as if they picked a target and tried to stick it through every phase, even if everyone else thinks there might be a better direction. Is it town play? Debatable. The TAX vote stands out for me, because it went to a quick turn on Puta when he wanted to vote/ask for a claim from Sche. We cannot ask questions now about that because it was ribwich's vote, not Huntress'.

"follow votes or just put a vote on a person not being pressured at all". So we voted for someone that had votes on them or someone that didn't have votes on them. What other alternatives are there?

"I would expect a townie to put more thought and question things more." How about looking at the reasons actually given for the votes and getting your facts right before implying the votes were suspicious. You say that Ribwich and I seem "to like to follow votes", and then you complain that we stick to our target "even if everyone else thinks there might be a better direction". You can't have it both ways.

Basically I vote for who I think is scummiest and will only compromise on that close to a deadline if there is a danger of missing a lynch. Which is why I'm voting for Darox now as I may not be able to get on again before time runs out.

Vote: Darox

[Huntress]

That puts him back to L-1.

[Rhinox]

I'm conflicted, but not about Darox... just about what I should do tonight, and what I think of Tar.

I guess sometimes you have to take chances, and this is one of those times.

Tar, ignore my last plan for tonight. I AM NOT VIGGING YOU. I'm willing to bet the farm, so to speak, that you are telling the truth.

As this is my last post I can make tonight, I'm going to hammer Darox, and I'll decide what to do based on the outcome. If I vig, it will be either Vi, Huntress, or Jazzmyn. I'll have more time to reread and decide when night falls, I guess. Tar can block me if he doesn't trust me I guess.

Wish me luck, and then a quick, painless death.

vote: Darox