Mini 739 ~ Mafia Jailbreak, Game Over

[iamausername]

V-v-v-v-

vote: bionicchop2

! Straight from the fridge, dad!

[iamausername]

Oh noes, walls of text, my only weakness!

I'm guessing we're going to see a lot of them in this game. I'm going to do my best to be as concise as possible.

Oh, sorry about that. I read the following as what I said:

I don't enter every topic of conversation with a clear expectation on what might be gained from the information revealed.

I was simply skimming that part.

Don't like this. I didn't have a problem with Korts reading "this discussion is counter-productive" from "I plan on working as many new angles as I can think of, even if it means I might discuss a potentially useless point.", since I inferred much the same thing. So Korts excusing himself by saying "Oh, I skimmed" seems off. He's showing a lack of willing to stand by his statements in the face of criticism, which suggests he wants to avoid attention.

Unvote, Vote: Korts

[iamausername]

On the other hand, what would you expect me to say if I had actually been skimming?

Well, skimming is slightly scummy in and of itself; scum have less reason to pay close attention to every word, because they already know who's town and who's not (minus the possible SK, of course), so they don't have to read into them so much. But my point was that by saying you skimmed, you're basically agreeing that there was no reasonable basis for your interpretation of bionic's post, which seems off to me because I believe there

was

, in fact, reasonable basis for that interpretation.

Apparently jokes are the only appropriate way of starting discussion Korts.

This man is made of straw! It's a straw man!

An extra kill confirms a SK. A single kill leaves us where we are today.

What about no kill?

Ugh. I guess we should stop scumhunting so that we don't uncover more potential slip-ups for the scum.

This man is made of straw! It's a straw man!

On day one, there is nothing to gain for town from discussing the possibility of an SK.

I disagree, using bionic as a springboard here,

I will state again that I have trouble seeing how hunting for an SK would actually differ from hunting for a mafia player on D1.

The town should add an additional scum to all calculations made from this point until we can state with some probability that there is not one around.

But on D1, there's no reason for us to make any calculations about how many scum there are.

RC is saying that we should assume the worst until better is proven. Ok, sure. The way he discusses it though is not as curt it should be though, which gives me a slight scum vibe. I've decided to read this player mostly on meta, because when i read him just like everyone else he consistently slips by, so i might be using poorly explained reasons some this game, i'll try to be glass man like Korts as much as possible though.

So, essentially, you're pre-emptively defending yourself for making crap cases on RedCoyote at some future time here. I'm really struggling to think of a pro-town reason to do that.

Oh, by the way, if you are going to put people's words in quotes, make sure it really is what they said, not just your interpretation of it. Or at least make it clear that it's not an actual quote.

Putting things in quote tags = actual quote.
Putting things in quotation marks = paraphrase.

That's the way I tend to work it.

The first bold is me saying he didn't answer his questions as curtly as he could. It's suspicious, especially in terms of his meta. See, there you go Rhinox, i was warning you there might be questions about the way i evaluate RC and there's already been some.

I'm gonna need to see some sources cited on this meta. Can you show that he tends to answer things more curtly when he's town than when he's scum?

Lest you think I am starting some big player-Mod WIFOM, there is a perfectly good reason why we should, why every player should, assume there is an SK before we end this day, or any day, until proven otherwise: night actions.

Do you think we should be discussing night actions before we end this day?

Unvote, Vote: popsofctown

[iamausername]

The first bold is me saying he didn't answer his questions as curtly as he could. It's suspicious, especially in terms of his meta.

I'm gonna need to see some sources cited on this meta. Can you show that he tends to answer things more curtly when he's town than when he's scum?

pops, do you have an answer to this question, or were you just throwing in the word 'meta' to make it look like your case was stronger than it actually is?

Really? I think there is a clear distinction between scummy and suspicious. Its the nature of the game to be suspicious of everyone until we are given definitive reasons to believe otherwise. I would still be somewhat suspicious of even the most pro-town player in the game if they're not confirmed town, even if they never did a single thing I could call scummy.

Regarding bio, I'm suspicious of all the early talk about the sk, but i wouldn't call it scummy right now.

If all you mean by 'suspicious' is "It's possible they're scum, because it's always

possible

that somebody is scum", then why bother pointing out specific behaviours as 'suspicious'? Isn't everything anyone says 'suspicious', by your definition?

What better case might that be? pops for posting riddles? Huntress for "refusing to vote"?

Get with the program Korts. This is Day 1. No "superior cases" are being made.

There has very clearly been a stronger case posted against pops than "posting riddles", if you'd care to read the thread. And why do you say "this is Day 1" here? Are you implying that, on Day 1, it is impossible for a stronger case to be made than the one that you have against Rhinox?

[iamausername]

Really? I think there is a clear distinction between scummy and suspicious. Its the nature of the game to be suspicious of everyone until we are given definitive reasons to believe otherwise. I would still be somewhat suspicious of even the most pro-town player in the game if they're not confirmed town, even if they never did a single thing I could call scummy.

Regarding bio, I'm suspicious of all the early talk about the sk, but i wouldn't call it scummy right now.

If all you mean by 'suspicious' is "It's possible they're scum, because it's always possible that somebody is scum", then why bother pointing out specific behaviours as 'suspicious'? Isn't everything anyone says 'suspicious', by your definition?

^Not rhetorical.

However, I will say that I've been trying something new in some of my games that hasn't exactly been working... I feel as a town player, I should always be able to identify who is "scummiest". As such, I should always be able to place my vote for who I feel is scummiest.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Sometimes he's longwinded, and sometimes he can't get to the point faster (usually when he's not lying about something it would seem to me.

I haven't played with him as town

, but sometimes he's lying about something and sometimes he's addressing points that aren't lies. In retrospect those are less longwinded). The quote sort of represents the game as a whole really.

Bolded point; this necessarily makes a meta-read less realiable, because without a town version to compare it to, it will be hard to separate the things he does because he's scum from the things he does because he's Coyote.

Point in general; OK. I'm still wary of the possibility of pops using meta as an excuse to vote Coyote without any real case, but having at least something of pops' though process divulged alleviates my doubts somewhat. And noting bionic's suggestion that we let pops go with slightly sketchy explanations for now, but that he'd better be prepared to expand on them if Coyote turns up town; that's a good idea.

I could definitely do with giving Newbie 685 a more thorough read for pops, Coyote & Vi metas (the last one not for this game, obv.), and I'll look into the "he waffles when he's lying" theory.

Moreover, I am implying that cases on Day 1 are necessarily weaker than cases on succeeding days. Do you disagree with that?

No, but now I'm wondering why you brought it up in the first place:

Get with the program Korts. This is Day 1. No "superior cases" are being made.

"Korts, there are no stronger cases being made than my case on Rhinox, because cases made on Day 1 are necessarily weaker than cases on succeeding days." Either it's a total non-sequitur, or you're claiming that your case against Rhinox has, in fact, BEEN SENT BACK IN TIME FROM A FUTURE DAY.

I mean, that quote in general is just really, really bad. It's ridiculously condescending for no good reason, and it's just arbitrarily dismissing all other cases out of hand. The former might not be scummy, but the latter certainly is.

On day one night actions only concern those who have them. Do I see some subtle role-fishing here?

I was pushed into saying it. I was content with leaving it at a disagreement over whether or not setup discussion was good for the town on Day 1, but Rhinox and Rishi both insisted that I give them a reason as to why having multiple killing parties makes a determining factor in this game. This forced my hand into talking about things I would rather not have talked about.

I'm wondering why you're pressuring me because of this, and not Rhinox or Rishi.

What.

Let me just get this straight. Your rolefishing is not scummy because Rhinox and Rishi forced you into it by asking you to defend your position, and in fact they are the scummy ones, because I guess they must have anticipated that your explanations would be rolefishing and therefore they were in fact asking you to defend your position in order to rolefish by proxy? That's your defence?

I wish I could do this without being accused of rolefishing... so, hypothetically, and rhetorically, I'm a watcher, or jailer, or doc... I could assume there is only mafia, I could assume there is mafia + sk, or I can assume nothing about the mafia roles other than whats possible... I don't see how any of my actions change by assuming there is an sk, compared to not assuming one...

I mean, I'm sure whoever is mafia loves your argument right now about sks... get the town paranoid about an sk, so maybe the town PR's spend tonight looking for the ghost sk instead of looking for mafia, or looking for scum in general.

So, these two quotes are kind of contradictory. In one, you're arguing that power roles will act the same whether there's an SK or not, but in the other you're saying that Coyote is helping the scum by sending the power roles on an SK hunt. How does that work?

I,

bionicchop2

iamausername, solemnly swear to acknowledge a distinct possibility we have multiple killing roles. At no point during this game will I forget this possibility. During my decision making process for hunting scum, I will constantly ask myself how a 2nd killing party would affect the decision I am about to make.

A real, honest to god day one quicklynch will not happen outside of a newbie game, and even then I'm not convinced it will happen.

Oh, It happens. Not that I think there was ever a need to worry about it in

this

game.

This question is pure fluff and could not be used in any manner of scum hunting.

Then you take the position that self-voting is inconsequential to a game, correct?

This question is pure fluff and could not be used in any manner of scum hunting.

Then who implied that we should assume there isn't an SK?

The implication that "we don't know what the mod does, cannot assume there is an SK". Do you want that post?

Not assuming there is an SK =/= Assuming there is not an SK.

I'm sure this has been said over and over.

Unvote, Vote: RedCoyote

[iamausername]

Picking up my prod, I'll try to have a proper post for you in the next few hours, but if I don't manage that, there'll definitely be one tomorrow.

[iamausername]

Sorry IAUN, not ignoring you... just having a hard time keeping track of everybody who needs answered.

It's cool, when there's this much going on, it's understandable that you'd miss some of it.

So, these two quotes are kind of contradictory. In one, you're arguing that power roles will act the same whether there's an SK or not, but in the other you're saying that Coyote is helping the scum by sending the power roles on an SK hunt. How does that work?

I don't think I'm being contradictory at all. I don't think town roles should play any differently by assuming anything about scum factions, so if anything thats consistent with my suspicions of RC for insisting that town roles should play differently by assuming an sk.

The thing is, you were originally saying that town power roles

wouldn't

act any different by assuming there is an SK, not that they

shouldn't

. Originally you were just arguing that Coyote's SK discussion was pointless because no one would act any different even if they did assume that there is an SK. Now you're arguing that it's actively scummy on his part because they

will

act differently if influenced by his suggestion. You can't have it both ways.

So if you vote on page two, for the first possible scumtell you notice, are you willing to lynch based on it?

Absolutely. Any vote I make, I'm willing to take to a lynch at the time I make it.

You know what I find really odd... the same people calling me scum are some of the same people voting RC right now for pretty much the same points I've been arguing about RC all game... not too sure what to make of it right now, but it makes me think the wagon on RC right now is highly scum motivated...

I am really, really not liking this post. It's perfectly possible to believe that two people are both scummy even if they're attacking each other. If you make perfectly valid points against Coyote, no one should assume those points are bad just because you're the one making them and you've done scummy things too. So why would this make you assume the wagon is scum-motivated?

So, yeah, what bionic said in Post #210

It also makes sense that scum would go after RC first when pushing a one or the other, or both scum scenario to set up mislynches - 1 or the other type situations typically don't work because of the potential false dilemna aspect of the argument. If one of us are lynched town, it probably wouldn't fly to call the other scum solely on our massive disagreement. But even if RC is lynched town first, I can still be tomorrow's mislynch based on my bad play up til now.

Why does this make any more sense than the reverse?

Only difference is that its harder to justify lynching RC tomorrow once I show up town.

Why?

RC is saying that emotional appeals are blatantly manipulative... but that is only assuming that I'm scum intending to be manipulative. If you don't assume anything about my allignment, is an emotional appeal manipulative?

yes

Can you even argue that its scummy at all?

clearly

It occurs to me that a mafia containing a mafia doctor has added reasons to be paranoid about the presence of an SK.

So after shooting down RC's idea because we don't know if we have a watcher or a doctor, you go ahead and assume that the mafia has a doctor so there must be an sk?

This seems rather wildly misrepresentative.

I wouldn't call it a misrep...

shocker

Hm... to annoy SpyreX, or take this game seriously....

You can't do both?

RC is toeing the line on how far role speculation should go, but I don't see anything he's done that has the potential to force a PR to come out.

Agreeing with this, because the scummy kind of rolefishing generally involves some kind of subtlety, not outright stating that you think it might be a good idea for some power roles to claim right now. That's only going to work on the most clueless of newbies, and there ain't none of those round these parts.

OTOH, Coyote's response (somewhere in the depths of this post) to Huntress's accusation of rolefishing is one of the main reasons I think he's scum. He doesn't argue that it wasn't scummy, he just tries to deflect the blame onto Rhinox and Rishi for forcing him into it. That basically reads to me as an admission that he

was

doing something scummy by rolefishing like that.

The other main reason, again, is this quote right here:

Get with the program Korts. This is Day 1. No "superior cases" are being made.

For real, I cannot get over how insanely scummy this quote is.

Key words: MAY BE. They carry the obvious implication: MAY NOT BE.

This is such a terrible defense. If you make a point of saying that X may be indicative of Y, you are implicitly stating that you think that is more likely than not. If you weren't, there would be absolutely no point in saying it in the first place. This is just a half-baked excuse to try to get out of being held accountable for your words.

"Suspicious vs. Scummy"

Seriously? This is actually a point against me? wtf everyone... I have my definitions of suspicious vs. scummy: namely, suspicious = potentially scummy. I also use suspicious to mean, "I'm suspicious of everyone who's not confirmed town, no matter how pro-town they seem". What is possibly scummy about this?

This is legit. I saw Rishi questioning Rhinox about what the difference was between 'scummy' and 'suspicious', and from the snippets quoted in those posts, I had the impression that Rhinox was using this as a lame excuse to backtrack on calling something suspicious, but having actually looked back at the context in which this discussion arose, that really wasn't the case.

I stand by my point that its extremely peculiar for everyone to say I'm so obvscum, yet use my logic and arguments to justify wagoning RC.

So, back to this point again now I realise that you're saying you

don't

think Coyote is scum. It makes a little more sense this way. But now I have to ask, who, exactly, is using your logic and arguments to justify wagoning him?

Moriarty147 replaces My Milked Eek. Welcome him. Or else.

W-welcome to the game, Moriarty! I am so totally glad you are here and am not just saying this because Vi is pointing a gun at my head, I swear!

---

So, here's the thing, maybe I'm just easily manipulated by emotional appeals, but I still don't think Rhinox is nearly as likely to be scum as RedCoyote. I can see why he's getting a wagon, and objectively, there's plenty of merit in the case, but I'm just not feelin' it. vollkan would not be pleased.

[iamausername]

Rishi scum more probable than Huntress scum more probable than Pops scum.

Rishi > pops > Huntress, I'd say.

[iamausername]

Ultimately, every single damn one of you that are voting RC because you say he is "unhelpful" versus "actually scum" drive me nuts

As I asked Rhinox (and didn't get an answer, btw), who exactly is doing this?

this is a long-winded game and I can see how someone could spend more time reading and catching up than posting.

holla

It is actually rather strange that a lot of the Rhinox wagon moved to the RC wagon, and most of the people staying off it stayed off it.

"A lot" = "bionic and pops". And what exactly does "most of the people staying off it stayed off it" refer to? The Rhinox wagon or the Coyote wagon?

I thought I'd bring this up, as you consider it a personal scumtell and your most major point against Rhinox, when I consider it rather useless. Why wouldn't a scum get equally indignated when they are voted?

To me pessimism is more of a towntell than a scumtell: why would a scum give up instead of fighting until the end?

This makes no sense at all.

But then, why would town give up either? It's not more of a towntell than a scumtell, it's a total null tell. Some people will be more inclined to give in, some will keep fighting until the noose is around their neck. I don't think it has anything to do with their alignment, generally.

3. Your group of 'lurkers' doesn't seem well thought out. Here are the post counts for the 6 players with the least number of posts prior to your post on Feb 12 (including confirmation). 6 included to show the 3 you called out.

IAU - 5
MME - 6
Rishi - 7
Spyrex - 9
Huntress - 12
Jahudo - 12

Ooh yeah! I'm #1!

Will wait for an explanation before switching my vote, but this looks like a genuine slip to me.

This was so obviously not a slip that I find it suspicious (and by that I mean scummy-suspicious, not potentially-scummy-suspicious argghagrlglrlg) for Rishi to act like it might possibly be.

OGML, I asked a similar question to you earlier that you never answered, and I got chastised for even asking it. When I show up as town after being lynched, how will that change your opinion of RC and the rest of the players in the game.

I would also like to know why it's OK for OGML to ask that kind of question, but not Rhinox. It seems fairly hypocritical to me.

Keep in mind, you also just said RC posting content = scumtell. I want that out there nice and clear.

I'm pretty sure he just said RC posting content =/= towntell. Are we going to get into another "not assuming/assuming not" argument now? That'd be tiresome.

Again, see above. Apples aren't B2 Bombers. My suspicion on them does not inherently mean I have confirmed the rest of the game to be town. Painting it as such is irritating.

It's your fault for saying "100%", really.

3. I need to update my Rishi notes now that he has posted a little more, but he is neck to neck with RC in my mind. Having fewer posts leaves me with less identifiable reasoning behind my suspicions of him though. Maybe this is an avenue worth pursuing.

I would definitely be down for a Rishi wagon, but it's probably too late for it to be a good idea today.

As a side note, I really don't understand all this grouping going on where we are trying to determine how a player flipping as an alignment will affect our view on the rest of the game. Trying to pair people up and determine partners without knowing the alignment of anybody seems like a surefire way to spin our wheels.

this, this, a thousand times this.

The alignment of a lynched player should be a small component of how others are analyzed IMO.

but not so much this. Once we actually know anyone's alignment, that'll be a pretty big consideration in my read of anyone else. It's all the discussion about it based on hypothetical alignments that seems pointless.

Further, are you making the argument that when you don't consider there to be "ANY meta" that we should assume that emotional appeals are necessarily null?

This question was not directed at me, but yes.

Oh, and what's vaguely distressing is how well iamausername has been slipping under the radar this entire time.

Is there anything in particular you'd like me to address?

Also, it could definitely be a slip.

no

Nice job appending the line "which I always do in a mini, FYI" to your original quote.

That's actually a quote from an earlier post of his.

The fact that you felt the need to explain it so many ways makes me feel as though you're getting defensive about something.

This is ridiculous.

no one seems to understand my special treatment of RC.

I understand it, but I think you're going way overboard with it. I mean, if I'm convinced that someone is town in a game, and they ultimately turn out to be scum, then I'm going to be wary of them in future, I understand that part. But saying that RedCoyote fooled you once as scum, therefore you cannot possibly read him, ever; that's really overstating the significance of that one game.

My take on the premature claim is that we probably do need to lynch Rhinox.

I had actually forgotten about Rhinox's premature claim. Even though I'm not at all convinced that he's scum, lynching claimed vanillas D1 is a policy I am hard pressed to find an argument with.

Fake edit: a huge new Rhinox post just appeared in my "topic review" window when I hit preview. I'm just going to go ahead and post this without reading that, because if I keep trying to catch up on the thread completely before I post, I am never going to be finished at the rate you guys go.

[iamausername]

@ Rhinox - "flip" is fairly common terminology, so you are reading too much into that IMO. It refers (at least I think) to flipping over a card and revealing the information on the other side (in this case - alignment). Might have started from live mafia (do they use cards)?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that is where it comes from.

[iamausername]

Pops

's "lynching vanillas is protown" policy makes no sense.

I disagree, it makes sense. You ask people to claim at L-1 as a last resort to save themselves from a lynch. If they claim vanilla, then they give you no reason not to go ahead with the lynch, so they should be hammered immediately. You don't want to then go and wagon someone else to a claim, because that could lead to a power role being outed completely unnecessarily.

Now, with a premature claim, it's not so clear-cut, granted. Rhinox hadn't been agreed as a good lynch by the majority when he claimed, so if everyone who wasn't voting Rhinox prior to his claim had strong reasons not to be voting him, those reasons still apply. But wagonning someone else to a claim could still lead to a power role being outed, and lynching him now would prevent that risk. So, on some level, his claim does increase the value of his lynch. If pops thinks that's enough to outweigh Coyote or anyone else's scumminess, then that's a perfectly justifiable reason to vote.

If we lynch him and he does turn up town, you have done nothing to change the odds of scum finding a power role.

But if we don't lynch him, and force a power role to claim, THEN lynch him, then that would dramatically increase the odds of scum finding a power role.

If we followed your logic, we would have to lynch the first person bandwagoned to L-1 in any day and claims.

If they claim vanilla, absolutely.

[iamausername]

Prod received, real post soon.

[iamausername]

you totally missed the point in my analogy.

Your analogy sucked, the situation was not at all comparable.

Here's a better analogy: let's say you have a third nipple. Some guy comes up to you and says "Hey, dude, you only have two nipples."
You take off your shirt and show him your third nipple. "Look, look at my third nipple," you say.
He points out your other two nipples and says "But you do have two nipples, I was right."
"Yes, I do have two nipples," you interject, "but I also have a third nipple. So your claim that I

only

have two nipples was incorrect."
"That's WIFOM!" he replies. You beat him to death with a shovel.

[iamausername]

It is a scumtell not to eat apples. Pops eat apples and he eats pears. Therefore, because pops eats pears, he is scum.

Or this. But nipples are funnier.

[iamausername]

Also, "quicklynch". We're one day from deadline. We've had 19 pages of discussion. Where is the "quick" in that?

[iamausername]

it is deadline day guys. VOTE

More specifically, vote for RedCoyote.

[iamausername]

1a)

username's awkward shift from this,

You ask people to claim at L-1 as a last resort to save themselves from a lynch. If they claim vanilla, then they give you no reason not to go ahead with the lynch, so they should be hammered immediately. You don't want to then go and wagon someone else to a claim, because that could lead to a power role being outed completely unnecessarily.

to this,

More specifically, vote for RedCoyote.

which gave me somewhat of a shock. Certainly if there is any silver lining to my claim for day one, this contradiction would likely be it.

Except Rhinox was not asked to claim at L-1, he was at L-3 and claimed totally unprovoked. Which makes his lynch a better choice than it would have been without the claim, but not absolutely the only correct choice. Which I said quite clearly, in the very next paragraph of the post that you took that quote from. I don't know how you missed that. I also don't know why it would be at all shocking that I am advocating your lynch when I haven't stopped voting you since I made that vote on page 9. And you accuse

pops

of not paying attention.

Just got out of the car after a grueling 23 straight hours, and hey look a claim from RC that makes perfect sense. Can we get this Rhinox lynch going for reals now?

Weren't you voting Rhinox over RC purely because you thought he was a scum power role, but that both were scum? What happened to that?

If there are no objections, I'll place the hammer vote.

No objections here.

[iamausername]

Yeah, I'm thinking the most likely explanation for the Rhinox kill is one of these two:

a) SK killed Rhinox because he wanted to avoid being caught by a watcher, and because it wouldn't bother him either way if Rhinox flipped town or scum.

b) Scum (of either type) killed Rhinox specifically to setup the WIFOM of "why would scum kill Rhinox?" so they could push a bullshit case on someone based on a theory of why that person would kill Rhinox, and his name is popsofctown. (Yes, I am fully aware of the inherent hypocrisy of this argument.)

What's an even better explanation for odd killage like this is scum avoiding dead-ending. When you yourself, the scum, has publicly fingered someone as town, you know it will be hard to lynch that person since they can't help that lynch along.

Good point.

It really, really isn't. SpyreX was getting along just fine pushing the underdog pops wagon yesterday, so why would Rhinox's survival change that today? Either the suspicion of Rhinox from yesterday would be enough to get him lynched today without scumSpyreX's help, or the growing support for the pops agon towards the end of the day would continue enough to get him lynched today. From the position that pops is claiming to hold, that's a town lynch either way, and a strong likelihood of one where SpyreX doesn't get his hands dirty by being part of it, so why would he think scumSpyreX would want to avoid that situation?

And the fact that multiple people have said "oh spyrex is scummy" in passing without saying why (maybe that was just one person but it's still fishy) makes me suspicious of him, quite possibly they are scumpartners. Worst-case-scenario their townie guts are agreeing with me.

Why say "multiple people" at all when you know that is a lie?

Err, i intended my vote as a daystart conjecture rather than a stump some people seem to think it is. I'm def interested in other people.

Who? Why?

Also, this:

I couldn't really think of anyone who had rhinox fingered as town, except, just now, Spyrex!

is pretty lol, given such quotes as these:

i don't think Rhinox is that scummy though. Not as of now.

As i said earlier, the lynching of Rhinox is a theory point that i was open to discussion with. BC has a convincing explanation of how i still need to feel Rhinox is somewhat scummy to justify his lynch. Right now, i'm not sure he is.

---

My suspects #2-4 after RC were - in order - Moriarty, Rishi, OGML. This puts me down in the bottom/middle of my list for suspects that are viable lynch options for me today. I still feel fairly strong in my read on Pops. I won't debate those voting him today, but I will probably not be voting him unless there are no other options.

As I said, I think Spyrex has played fairly town, so I don't see myself voting him ATM. That leaves Jahudo, CF and Huntress for me to look at closely.

~If I was invisible
Then I could just watch you in your room
If I was invincible
I'd make you mine tonight
If hearts were unbreakable
Then I could just tell you where I stand
I would be the smartest man
If I was invisible
Wait, I already am~

Weren't you voting Rhinox over RC purely because you thought he was a scum power role, but that both were scum? What happened to that?

OGML, these questions would still like answers.

---

Vote: popsofctown

.

[iamausername]

Prod'd. I've got two other games that I've fallen further behind on, but I'll be with you ASAP.

[iamausername]

And the fact that multiple people have said "oh spyrex is scummy" in passing without saying why (maybe that was just one person but it's still fishy) makes me suspicious of him, quite possibly they are scumpartners. Worst-case-scenario their townie guts are agreeing with me.

Why say "multiple people" at all when you know that is a lie?

Uh, wow, this is really hostile. I thought it was more than one person, it might have just been one. I don't know why you assume that

i know

exactly one person said it. By what evidence did you decide i knew exactly one person said it but put it the way i did anyway? There's a lot of hypocrisy in your post really, since you are "lying" about a lie i didn't tell, and the hypocrisy you admitted to.

Well, you said "maybe it was just one person but it's still fishy". From that, I somehow drew the conclusion that you might have had some inkling that there were not multiple people calling SpyreX scum without reasons.

But OK, fine. If you're saying you weren't sure if there was anyone besides Huntress doing that, don't you think it might have been a good idea to go back and check before using that assumption as the basis for a vote?

I totally agree that this is a possibility. I also don't like that pops seems to be backtracking on his suspicion of SpyreX. Does he really think he's wrong or is he just trying to avoid a lynch?

How would backtracking on his SpyreX suspicion help him avoid a lynch?

@people accusing me of backtracking- please, no. Am i not allowed to be wrong? I never said that my position was a stump, but people immediately started blowing it up and saying i was "taking a position". It was an L-max vote, the only people who made it seem like anything more than a vote on a notion were people misrepping me, not me.

I couldn't really think of anyone who had rhinox fingered as town, except, just now, Spyrex!,

who seems scummy anyway

. Spyrex's tunneling on me has been queer, and i don't like how he suggested early in the game that we should be lurker hunting and then does nothing of the kind (scumpartners?). And the fact that multiple people have said "oh spyrex is scummy" in passing without saying why (maybe that was just one person but it's still fishy) makes me suspicious of him, quite possibly they are scumpartners. Worst-case-scenario their townie guts are agreeing with me.

vote: Spyrex

Yes, I can't imagine why people reading this would get the idea that you were actually saying SpyreX was scummy. Protip: people claiming that you said something that you did, in fact, say are not "misrepresenting" anything.

We saw the spotlight shine on two town players all of day 1. Maybe letting the spotlight fall where it may is not a good plan here guys.

"We lynched a townie yesterday, therefore lynching is a bad idea. Everyone should vote No Lynch."

Help me out, someone, which logical fallacy is pops employing here?

It really, really isn't. SpyreX was getting along just fine pushing the underdog pops wagon yesterday, so why would Rhinox's survival change that today? Either the suspicion of Rhinox from yesterday would be enough to get him lynched today without scumSpyreX's help, or the growing support for the pops agon towards the end of the day would continue enough to get him lynched today. From the position that pops is claiming to hold, that's a town lynch either way, and a strong likelihood of one where SpyreX doesn't get his hands dirty by being part of it, so why would he think scumSpyreX would want to avoid that situation?

I was assuming Pops was looking further ahead than just the next round and was thinking of a possible lylo situation, but I guess he wasn't as he seemed to retract it after you wrote this.

I don't see how my point doesn't make just as much sense extended further ahead. How does SpyreX look any more suspicious in a lylo situation where Rhinox was left alive to be the Day 2 lynch vs. a lylo situation where he was killed Night 1?

The day is far from over, and day 1 focussed on two people who (to at least a majority of the town) seemed scummy who both flipped town, so I'm not sure haste in voting is to be encouraged now, especially as deadline still is not very soon by any means.

Deadlines are a limit, not a target. If you actually have something that you think needs to be discussed before the lynch, fine, but please don't ever hold back from lynching someone purely because the deadline hasn't arrived yet.

---

TO DO LIST:

Take a more thorough look at Huntress and Rishi's post histories and figure out whether or not there is anything to the bad feeling I'm getting from both.

[iamausername]

Here's another "received prod, real post soon" post. "Soon" may in fact be "in a couple of days", though. Sorry about that.

[iamausername]

"We lynched a townie yesterday, therefore lynching is a bad idea. Everyone should vote No Lynch."

Help me out, someone, which logical fallacy is pops employing here?

If anything, you're stretching the meaning of his post. Nowhere is he advocating No Lynch, he is merely advocating that tunnelling on a single player for the entire day is a bad idea due to the fact that if he's town it's easily giving scum a free pass.

Yeah, that wasn't meant to be an accurate paraphrase of his post (so I'm really not sure what compelled me to put quotation marks around it). I was extending his reasoning to a logical, though ridiculous, conclusion in order to point out its absurdity. AKA reductio ad absurdum.

OH MY GOSH IDIOTS. Do your silly pairs AFTER i flip.

But if you flipped town, they'd have no reason to be pairing people with you. Are you claiming scum, pops?

---

I've reread Rishi in isolation. Here are some reasons why he is scum:

Post #85: Uses the word 'interesting'. Yes, I am saying that is a scumtell. When you say "X is interesting" in a game of Mafia, what you are saying is "X is something that I could be taking a stance on". By doing that, you invite others to take a stance on that issue by drawing their attention to it, while carefully avoiding actually taking one yourself.

Post #302: There's another 'interesting'. And he's pretty much throwing wild suspicion around indiscriminately. "SpyreX called these three people scum, these two other people responded. THERE'S GOTTA BE SOME SCUM IN THERE SOMEWHERE!" The only purpose I can think of for doing that is so he can come back to it later if he feels like wagoning one of the five or so players that are supposedly implicated here as 'proof' that he was supicious of them all along.

Post #314: As I said at the time, Rhinox's comment was so obviously not a slip when read in context that Rishi calling it out as one looks suspicious. I think it indicates that he wasn't paying real attention to Rhinox's post, and was just looking for things that he could use to cast suspicion on him.

Post #487: Rishi's last post in D1. This post really grated on me at the time. Stating "I am willing to switch my vote to avoid a No Lynch" is utterly pointless. Nobody is ever going to say they're NOT willing to avoid a No Lynch. This is basically the same as saying "Hey everybody, I'm town."

More importantly, Rishi's vote was on RedCoyote at the time. There was, if you'll recall, pretty equal support for both Rhinox and pops as the lynch towards the end of the day, so it might actually have been useful to state which of the two he was willing to switch to. But that would require him to take an actual position, which Rishi apparently has some kind of phobia about.
Who does Rishi suspect? On Day One, it was RedCoyote, because he talked too much about theory, and not enough about finding scum. And that's the only reason he ever gave for finding anyone suspicious throughout the entire day.

Reading his Day One posts in isolation, I don't get even the vaguest hint that Rishi is interested in figuring out anyone's alignment. I would seriously reccomend that everybody else do this, because that's the most compelling reason why I think he's scum, and it's not something I can show in a single quote.

Post #590: So, first of all: "The question was asked much earlier, CF, whether or not I think pops is scum. Well, I thought it was a good possibility at the time, but I'm less sure now." When was the "much earlier" question asked? I haven't been able to find it.

Secondly, the end of this one is horrible. Here's the first time he's listed any suspects besides RedCoyote, and he does so without any real case, and says he's "waiting for them to post". Rishi, remember when you said this:

Other than that one post that I voted for RC, you still haven't given any reasons for thinking I'm scum. It's like you think if you repeat that I'm scum enough that people will believe it. This is actually a fun experiment you can try in any game. You keep listing a particular player on your "scumlist" and keeping saying "This player bothers me but I'm not sure why." The player doesn't have anything concrete to defend himself against, so can't really respond to the accusations. Soon other people put the player on their scumlist and start scrutinizing the player's posts and voila! That player is lynched.

So, is this what you're doing to Huntress/OGML? Saying that they're suspicious, and that you're 'waiting for them to post' without giving them any case to post about?

Unvote, Vote: Rishi

I wish I'd found the time to do this sooner, because a lynch on Rishi at this point is going to have to be slightly rushed, but seriously he is so obvscum.

FAKE EDIT:

I wish someone not voting Pops, besides Pops himself, would post. 4 days till deadline ladies and gents. All you people preaching this, "I'll get to you later," stuff are eventually going to run out of "later".

I'm not voting pops any more. Do I count?

[iamausername]

Who is going to hammer before we hit deadline?

Yo.

Unvote, Vote: popsofctown

[iamausername]

At this time I don't think the information of who I targeted for jailing helps us find scum.

I'll agree with this if we're going to No Lynch today. And I do think that's the right thing to do, for the record.

[iamausername]

Vote: No lynch

(L-1)

I'm ready for night.

:goodposting:

There's nothing to be discussed now that can't be discussed just as well tomorrow, with the benefit of added information from tonight's goings on.

Vote: No Lynch

.