Mini 739 ~ Mafia Jailbreak, Game Over

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Vote: bionicchop2

I use random votes to punish avvies i don't like.

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Hey RC - just so you know, I am MrShow on EM.

What's EM? If it's what i think it is, then i just joined it like, yesterday, and this is an insane coincidence.

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well, something like that automatically has a reason or purpose...

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he confirmed, he didn't post. don't think he knows the game started

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Selective scumhunting, that's a buzzword..

BC has brought up SKs specifically, and emphasized the threat they hold to the town. If he were scum, this could help ensure the SK get lynched, which makes lots of sense, since the mafia have to double shoot SKs to kill them according to the role pms.

Of course, maybe he just thinks SKs are bad for the town and hard to find (which is true). So maybe he's town helping us.

If he's SK, he's done something that is very bad for himself.

Those are all the "my wine" choices of WIFOM motivations for all the BC's alignments. Everyone here seems seasoned, so i think they can all infer the opposite (but not always equal) gains or losses for doing the same action with the same alignment.

The spread on the "my wine" gains looks something like:
Mafia: +++
Town: +
SK: ----

Really, i think those kinds of spreads can be dangerously bad for the brain. Your mind sort of bounces back and forth between the obvious reasoning and the possible concealed reasoning for the discussion, and then eventually decides to discount SK and settle into: meh, simply town. So i guess what i'm saying is... after overanalyzing BC (i decided too since there's not going on right now), i'm going to count the SK discussion against him more than i would initially, because i think i'd do it if i was scum.

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kinda

I'm trying to join the talk-about-nothing-like-you're-getting-paid club.

[popsofctown]

The +'s and -'s were the direct gains from BC's SK discussion, not including the resulting WIFOM assumptions that the player does or does not have that alignment since the action was partakened.

I don't know why Korts is voting me, i thought we were all trying to start discussion. Wasn't he the one saying one can even resort to jokes to get discussion going? I couldn't think of anything funny.

Huntress is being an annoying hairsplitter right now. "i never said i don't

want

to random vote, i just didn't. I never said I

won't

random vote, just not right now". Look, Huntress, cheetah thing, i dunno if you're town or scum, but if you keep the conversation around hairsplits i'm going to get confused and screw up the game. I don't know about anyone else's capacities for nonsense, i don't have much. So please, stop it.

Apparently jokes are the only appropriate way of starting discussion Korts. A question for you: A cowboy rides into town on Friday. He stays in town for three days, no more. Then he leaves town on Friday. How is this possible?

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Friday is his horse.

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Friday is his horse.

Is that all you have to say?

Let me help. Did you admit to posting for the sake of posting? Why did you post for the sake of posting? Why did you admit to it?

What walks on four legs at first, then at two, and then finally on three?


I'm trying to make a point. My make-talk post was no more unuseful than jokes made during the RVS, which you seem to encourage. Just like i would admit to telling that joke to get talk going, i'll admit the other post was trying to get talk going. I don't lie about what I'm doing when i play town.

[popsofctown]

what the crap!! i killed my post ((

@Rhinox (again, ugh)

RC is saying that we should assume the worst until better is proven. Ok, sure. The way he discusses it though is not as curt it should be though, which gives me a slight scum vibe. I've decided to read this player mostly on meta, because when i read him just like everyone else he consistently slips by, so i might be using poorly explained reasons some this game, i'll try to be glass man like Korts as much as possible though.

Rhinox says we can't really hunt an SK specifically today, so who cares. Ok, sure. Don't really get an alignment vibe from him. I'll have him know that Natirasha totally won a game with his self-vote once though. It's a legit strat.

OGML has his head on the ground, basically, the SK discussion itself isn't going to do anything positive. He kinda seems towner than not.


@Rishi- i was continuing with the jokes to make a point to Korts. They're actually riddles but everyone's letting me call them jokes since i needed to make a point and couldn't think of a joke. Such nice people here. This joke is just to spite Rishi:
What has mail, never clinking,
A mouth, always drinking,
And two eyes, never blinking?

[popsofctown]

[quote="RhinoxRegarding Korts vs. Pops, I don't find pops' jokes, or the talk about nothing comment to be scummy[/quote]

Also, any suspicions I have of bio (or RC) for continuing the sk theory discussion are currently being overshadowed by pops 82,

and his riddles

.

Did they become suspicious when you decided you could make up a full case?

The thing about me pre-emptively saying my reasoning against RC might be poorly explained is more or less fair. I probably shouldn't say something like that, but instead just explain on each instance the meta-significance of why i might find him suspicious, try to explain how it rel.ates to my other game with him, etc.

Natirasha was town in the game i referenced, i'll try to find it for Rhinox. It directly lead to lots of suspicioun on my scumpartner, which pressured us into a gambit, which lost us the game due to a technicality.

[popsofctown]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... t=carbon14

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Oh, by the way, if you are going to put people's words in quotes, make sure it really

is

what they said, not just your interpretation of it. Or at least make it clear that it's not an actual quote.

Legit complaint. Sorry, I'll try to make it clear, i know it sucks to be misquoted... I thought the exaggeration/parody was clear enough though.

RC is saying that we should assume the worst until better is proven. Ok, sure. The way he discusses it though is

not as curt it should be

though, which gives me a slight scum vibe. I've decided to read this player mostly on meta, because when i read him just like everyone else he consistently slips by, so i might be using poorly explained reasons some this game,

i'll try to be glass man like Korts

as much as possible though.

Can you clarify what mean by the bits I've bolded please? I see Rhinox has already asked about the "poorly explained reasons" so I needn't repeat that.

The first bold is me saying he didn't answer his questions as curtly as he could. It's suspicious, especially in terms of his meta. See, there you go Rhinox, i was warning you there might be questions about the way i evaluate RC and there's already been some.

The second bold is me making metaphors and hoping people keep up. It's cool when they do. Korts said earlier in this game he keeps his thoughts [near-perfect paraphrase] "In-thread instead of in-head", in an attempt to be transparent. So i was saying i'll try to be like that as much as i can.

I don't like the way RedCoyote kicked off the discussion about self-voting then just let it run without commenting further. I also didn't like his buddying up to me in post 51. (I apologise if it was a genuine compliment but I'm wary of such in these games and that one seemed a bit overdone. )

RC's mafia playstyle runs on buddying and sheer Texan moxy

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Is that how you read the statement, or are you getting something else out of it?

Regardless, I don't think it changes anything, unless pops can tell me that the paragraph in question had any point other than to defend/answer for RC

I wasn't defending or answering for RC. You asked me this:

Pops: Anything you can divine from from the rest of the conversation about sks?what do you think of RC's comments about SK? What do you think about mine? What about OGML's?

You asked me what i thought about RC's comments about SK. I summarized his position, said how i felt about his position, and then mentioned that i thought his answers were slightly scummy. How do you get answered for or defended out of that? I didn't even know, nor do i know now, of any questions you asked RC or any pressure you had on him.

I still regret my declaration about poorly explained reasoning. I should have handled that on a case by case basis and not worried about it. If it's still scummy to you, okay, let it stand.

[popsofctown]

...
I'm really playing like a (Village) Idiot this game...

lame, but true excuse: all 4 of my games I'm in got extremely active at the same time, the last couple days, and because of that I've been playing extremely crappy - i.e. not typing things the way I intend them to me, and now blatently forgetting which questions I've asked to which players.

Also, without getting too sentimental, I've been looking forward to this game ever since Vi PMed me the list of pre-ins. This game is pretty much full of great players, and I was looking forward to the opportunity to prove I could run with some of the best mafiascum.net has to offer. The end result is me being a bit off my game, trying too hard, being a bit flustered, and looking like a big idiot.

So, to show you can run with the best, you start massive usage of appeal to emotion? This is so full of ironic phail it makes me laugh.

Question for pops though (I'll remember asking this one): If roles were reversed, and someone used that attack on me that I used on you, I would have reacted a little differently, more like "WTF! you just asked me for my opinion on it... what the hell are you talking about?" You seemed like you were willing to give me a pass:

If it's still scummy to you, okay, let it stand.

Why were you so unphased by my obviously contradictory attack and so willing to just let me leave my vote there? ...just seems odd to me...

I feel quite quoted out of context. The component of the attack that was about me defending RC, that's complete bantha pudu and that doesn't stand. The component about me announcing that i would use RC's meta later on: i agree i probably didn't need to announce that. It's retracted to the highest degree possible on a forum without editing.

Thats an inaccurate representation of my feelings. I didn't think pops was explaining the buzzword, I thought (think) pops

was trying to

be WIFOMy and

divine whether bio's discussion made him more likely scum, town, or sk

.

Pretty unforgivable stuff i've been putting out here, eh?


I noticed everyone got the most pissed about riddles after that last one. It's okay if you guys don't want to simply admit you don't know the answer .

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some other people won't admit it though.. :tease:

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BC's riddling power is greater than thine, Rhinox

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[quote="Jahudo""i never said i don't want to random vote, i just didn't.”I can’t find her version of saying that.[/quote]

Huntress: Why don't you want to random vote?

What makes you think I don't want to random vote?

This is after she said she wouldn't be randomly voting.

[popsofctown]

Vote: Rhinox

I challenged him on appeal to emotion, and more or less all i'm getting is him saying that that's the only defense he has for himself. Issues like totally misinterpreting me (ties in with "scum skim threads") and contradicting himself about his suspicions (ties in with scum aren't genuinely suspicious of anyone) are major issues. Appeal to emotion just makes it worse.

Someone earlier said took a shot at Korts(?) I didn't mean to attack Korts earlier, only his position on what kind of discussion is appropriate early-game. I think at the page content and development of content we were at, my fluffy analysis of BC was appropriate, the way we agree votes not based on much are appropriate early on and the same way, i think, Korts thinks random joke votes and jokes about those votes is good early on to start discussion. But if anyone implied i was trying to attack Korts himself, that's not what i intended and i hope he doesn't feel that way(?)

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I know.

But i'll take any chance i can to tell my riddles. It's fun making Rhinox's head sore.

I would say that me and Korts have very different playstyles (after ~not being with him in two games i can't comment on because they aren't completed.) I think i can read him better than he reads me though. Korts tends to be like "wtf what is this pops thing", but he's a rational guy so i can tell what he's doing and thinking. Not saying anything about alignments in all that. Oh noes!! the fluff not the fluffs!!! we will suffocate in the horrendous bunny fluffy fluffs and aaaahhhhhmmmmmmm....

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MOD: Blot out the answers to the riddles before MyMilkedEek downloads it. MME needs more stess and confusion in his life.

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Dead serious

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gotta hurry though

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I'll give you a replacement IOU. :DDD

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Wait, what? I don't remember doing that. My mind is under Vi's control.... aughhhhh!

[popsofctown]

Korts, why are you voting me again?

Rishi: Is my case against Rhinox valid enough for a vote? Is Korts' and iamusername and rest of

crap

wagon's arguments valid enough for a vote on me?

[popsofctown]

Vote: Rhinox

I challenged him on appeal to emotion, and more or less all i'm getting is him saying that that's the only defense he has for himself.

Issues like totally misinterpreting me (ties in with "scum skim threads") and contradicting himself about his suspicions (ties in with scum aren't genuinely suspicious of anyone) are major issues. Appeal to emotion just makes it worse.

Spyrex, everyone in this thread complains about fluff, perhaps without the keyword. 12 players is a lot in a game and i just haven't really addressed you i guess. It's OK. Everyone's inner child wants popsofctown to pay attention to them.

I'm giving specific attention to Rishi because he has no vote right now, and i'd like to hear some opinions with him. I figure my case on Rhinox would either put him one way or the other. I already know where you stand, you're voting me are you not?

I'd also like to hear the points on me because i want to know what the most important points against me are.

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Hatchet, you asked me if I thought Shuga was suspicious.
In what context do you mean? Of course I think it's possible that she, or anyone here, is scum, but I don't find her specifically suspicious. I would never go so far as to say someone is 100% safe (aside from myself) but for the time being I'm much more suspicious of your and your agenda than I am of her.

Excusatio non petita, accusatio manifesta...

Such a discourse. Worried about what you have said maybe...

Sometimes he's longwinded, and sometimes he can't get to the point faster (usually when he's not lying about something it would seem to me. I haven't played with him as town, but sometimes he's lying about something and sometimes he's addressing points that aren't lies. In retrospect those are less longwinded). The quote sort of represents the game as a whole really.

There you go. If it's a legit tell, now he's acutely aware of it and it won't happen again. The guy's nearly unreadable and you take what little scraps i can put together away from me. It makes me very very emo kid.

[popsofctown]

@ Spyrex: I picked Rishi because when i think, i remember where he stands the least. I felt like going one at a time. Deal with it.

[popsofctown]

It's ok Spyrex. Toad is back, making everyone subliminally think i'm town.



You guys could lynch me for trolling this thread. But we all know that itself is not good play ~

[popsofctown]

gosh, walls.

When did spyrex ask me a question, and what question was it? Maybe i thought it was rhetorical.

[popsofctown]

but... then i can't work on my physics homework. which is like, due soon. can i find it later? i'll find it later. no one tell me. It'll totally spoil my curiosity and wonder. but i will come back to this thread. And find it later. gaureanteed.

[popsofctown]

Which question was it that Spyrex is upset about? Is it where he wants a resummary of my case on Rhinox?


In other news, i'm about as sure about Rhinox being scum right now as i am about RC. I have another meta-rooted tell for RC, which may or may not be valid. Do you want me to tell it to RC in front of you all so he can correct it again? I could, but i hope you people see why it might make me feel like i'm running on a treadmill.

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either way, that tell is good, so

unvote, vote RedCoyote

Either Rhinox or RC is lynchalicious right now. RC needs teh pressure more though.

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tbh, i'm additionally very impressed with your case on him, although i hate to me-too

[popsofctown]

I know, right!?

Spyro will soon be here to chastise me for it though. Use the fire breath, it's super effective against my mushroomy head.

[popsofctown]

@Huntress- i have a good answer for you're good question

hmmm... those are 2 options for sparking serious discussion. Another option is random votes, which huntress has not done.

Yet my non-vote has caused more discussion so far than any vote.

And a question: Why are you not mentioning My Milked Eek, who also posted without voting?

Not that you're question actually has a statement within it, set off by commas. I believed the statement to be incorrect (it stemmed from us having different meanings of "post"), and i think correcting false statements holds enough weight for me to intervene.

[popsofctown]

Oh, i got you beat username, this quicklynch isn't even based on a tell:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 78&start=0

I still think RC is scummy. His defense is scummy too.

[popsofctown]

i had an argument with RC about alignment-based-ad hom.

But basically, Rhinox is adhomming himself. it's kind of funny.

[popsofctown]

there's obviously time for you to change your mind, Vi. Modsanta will still bring you presents this christmas, i promise.

[popsofctown]

I think RC is trying to tie himself to me actually. Defending me, but not addressing any accusations i make against him (addressing everyone else's instead). And then the awkward turtle FoS he made that one time, that was weird.

I don't know how relevant that thought is, but i'd like to have it on file. Does anyone else get this impression?

[popsofctown]

@RC- since when do you wait to be addressed before responding? You've just taken an atypically small initiative about interacting with me.


The meta-tell that really sets my vote on RC right now is discussing non-alignment based point excessively. In my newbie game, he would frequently find things that didn't have to do about his alignment (like SK discussion) and get on a soapbox and rant and rave and get lots of text up fast. He seems to be discussing SK more than he needs to, he even makes his difference of opinion with Rhinox part of his case. I pretty strongly think it's RC scum.. es decir, as much as i am capable of detecting RC scum (because i totally fingered him innocent in my first game), then this is it right here.

[popsofctown]

NO KORTS DON'T LEAVE MEEE!!! Who will be here to push crapwagons on me T_T!!!

[popsofctown]

OGML: have you read Don Quijote? I'm reading it in school right now, i really like it. Have you read it?

[popsofctown]

whoa whoa whoa OGML, if RC has a claim it should be earlier rather than later? We're all mature consenting mafia players here, no one's going to quickhammer unless they're scum in this group. We've plenty of time. If you have a serious case about Rhinox possibly being a scum power role, then we want an L-1 claim from Rhinox, not from RC.

[popsofctown]

oh come ooooooooon spyrex lighten up

[popsofctown]

MME will never catch up to this thread.

Yes, I had noticed. It's interesting that you're nervous about it.

How is being comfortable with lynching someone "tying themselves" to them? Both you and OGML brought this up, and I flatly disagree.

I'm waiting to hear more from Pops before replying to this one.

Harrumph, i don't recall any questions from huntress, but i found this. I guess she just wants me to talk about the RC tying himself thing? I've never seen something like this before. Yes it makes me nervous, and if he's scum it's a pretty good tactic because i'm at that medium level of suspicion that the tie would get me D2 lynched pretty easily based on connection. So without precedent about what to do about that sort of thing, i decided to call it out. I hope you guys realize how strange his reaction to my calling it out was, if iirc, he started talking about his strong suspicions on me that he had supposedly had for a long time (i don't remember hearing about them) and somewhat forcedly talking about how much he'd like to see me burn.

[popsofctown]

Its like you two want me to want to lynch you, I swear.

Does that include me?
I actually do want you to hate me, in this funny trollish way. I don't want to actually get lynched though, that'd kind of suck for everyone involved.

Maybe i should quit antagonizing you, since your tunneling is probably a net negative for the town (although it is giving me reads off you, which i like).

Hm... to annoy SpyreX, or take this game seriously....

I'm just not seeing it on either wagon and I'm aggravated to no end that I cant devote enough time / words / special sauce to get pops on the radar.

I taste really good dipped in salt and special sauce SpyreX. Especially if i'm flamebroiled.

[popsofctown]

Rhinox, you seem less scummy to me right now. But i can't clearly decide if i feel that way because of your massive AtE or because of actual evidence you've shown. So now i have to lynch you. Do you see how that lurks?

If it is going to come down to lynch Rhinox or not today that is. Perhaps the premature claim works with the possibility of jailkeepers?

[popsofctown]

*works.

not a freudian slip i swear. Actually it possibly is for a different game...

[popsofctown]

Chance of 1 scum in that grouping: 100%

Making a scum claim Spyrex?

[popsofctown]

Rhinox, you seem less scummy to me right now. But i can't clearly decide if i feel that way because of your massive AtE or because of actual evidence you've shown. So now i have to lynch you. Do you see how that

lurks

works?

Huh?

In the past few pages, i've been getting less gut feeling about Rhinox being scum. Is it because she's actually town, or because she appeals to emotion every other post? I can't say which. So i would think i need to err on the side of uncharitable judgments, since he's the one who's using appeal-to-emotion for his defense.

I would definitely suggest you read my games Huntress, because your read on me right now is wrong.

Unapologetically unhelpful (see the you aint got nothin on me coppa defense) + hiding in plain sight + bandwagon voting = delicious scum cookie.

Come take a bite.

You ain't got nothin' on me coppaaaaa.
For serious though, i'm not scum here. I'm not hiding in plain sight, no one's addressed game-related content to me and then i've avoided it. There's a question, one question in this sea of walls, that you supposedly asked but i never answered.
Bandwagon voting? I really think RC is scum. This looks like RC scum. I don't know how i can explain this better. He loves to hide behind aspects of the game that don't bear on his alignment when he's scum. That's one of the only tells i can recognize off him.

So far it appears that

all

of his scumtells are based off of meta. While in a game such as this, scum would probably be good enough to try to avoid making any overt scumtells, an overreliance on meta tells is disturbing, as it allows scum to hide behind votes for town without actually forming any hard evidence against them, therefore allowing them to lynch town easier. In other words, this is certainly not helping my opinion of him right now.

nunununununununoooo. You guys don't understand. If i don't read RC based on some kind of meta, i won't be able to read him at all. The last game i played with him was very very long, and he posted very very lot, and i 99% thought he was town and he was scum. So it would logically follow that my ability to read RC as a normal player is about zero. If i were to use no meta, i would get a false negative on RC no matter what. Meta is my only hope of reading RC in any sort of capacity at all. If you guys don't understand or agree with my meta-based reasons for voting him, don't vote with me. But that's the way it's going to have to be.

@whoever suggested RC has posted too much content to be scum: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. RC posts LOTS OF CONTENT when he's scum. Lots of content. This is a craptell.

[popsofctown]

Rhinox, you seem less scummy to me right now. But i can't clearly decide if i feel that way because of your massive AtE or because of actual evidence you've shown. So now i have to lynch you. Do you see how that lurks?

If it is going to come down to lynch Rhinox or not today that is. Perhaps the premature claim works with the possibility of jailkeepers?

CF Riots wanted explication of this post.

The first part was me trying to explain why he oughtn't be doing so much AtE, at least if he's town he shouldn't. My gut feeling on him is and was moving towards town, but i don't know whether that's due to AtE, which affects one's judgment in an irrational/inefficient way. The word lurks instead of works is a bizzare switch of words, it should be "works", i correct it later. If i was lurking this game nineteen people and their mother could say it was a freudian slip but i'm definitely not lurking this game.

The second part is admittedly confusing. What i was addressing there is Rhinox's premature roleclaim. With a vanilla claim, you usually want to lynch the guy who made the claim, since if he's town it makes it easier for scum to shoot at power roles, if he's not town then duh he needs to be lynched. Not saying lynching a vanilla is better than lynching town, but lynching claimed-vanilla is definitely better than lynching a townie player with no claim out, it helps the town in night strategy. So i asked in that post whether maybe the jailkeeper has any sort of positive synergy with vanilla townies that would justify leaving Rhinox alive..

Rhinox is a tough case to call. Admittedly, all he's done is massive amounts of low level transgressions. We haven't caught him using deliberate logical fallacies, or chainsaw defending, or anything really scummy like that. Just WIFOM in AtE, one of the things that blend in the most with newbies. I think bionicchop is coming from the perspective of wanting to separate newbie from scum in that respect, but i think he's probably erring on the wrong side in this case.

@Spyrex- You would lynch me every single game for the same action because you thought it was scummy? Most the world agrees that self-voting has a positive correlation with being scum, would you lynch Natirasha every single game you played with him? You'd lose more than i would. I guarantee it.

If you really would lynch me even if you looked up my meta and it showed that i'm playing pops-town, i want you to tell me right now if you are trying to play to your win condition. Because if you are playing to you're win condition and that's really you're policy, i have no logical choice but to vote you.

[popsofctown]

And if you meta'd SpyreX and found that this is his policy in all his town games, wouldn't you be committing the same act you're calling out by policy voting him

for

policy voting you?

Not if he answers my question and says "yes, i'm playing to my win condition.". Because that policy only plays to his win condition if he's scum. It's not a policy vote, it's an i-found-scum vote.

[popsofctown]

Ok, Spyrex is really miffing me off. He's being a total loser and not fulfilling his responsibility to this game. You aren't supposed to play a mafia game for the sake of fulfilling a vendetta against certain playstyles, or proving "yoohoo, i can make this group of people lose with me every game they play with me until i pound them into submission". That's not what you're supposed to be here for. My understanding is that you bring nothing into the game, and you play the game with no goals beyond the game you're playing, playing it to win. If you're town Spyrex, your win condition for this game is not prove a point to popsofctown. It is not punish popsofctown if he does something you don't like. It is lynch popsofctown if he's scum and leave him alive if he's town. My meta is available to you, BionicChop has brought it up. I don't defend myself with my meta, like has been said you can manipulate a meta and use it to your own advantage, so bringing it up myself would be ridiculous. But to flout your sig as being serious, that you play games and lynch people on policy instead of real scumhunting ticks me off. That's not what you owed me when you signed up for this game. You owed me to try and win this game, not follow a policy.

If you can show why his meta is bad, why in this instance meta isn't accurate on me, fine, fine. That's what RC is saying about himself. That's fine. RC wants to win this game. I know he does. But saying, oh, yeah, i bet he would do X whether he was town or scum, but i hate X so i'm just gonna lynch him is ridiculous and violates the commitment that you made to this game, unless i don't understand the point of the mafia games on the site i've been playing for quite a while.

[popsofctown]

Re: Redcoyote case: no one seems to understand my special treatment of RC. He's like K7, in a different way, evidence shows that i can't read him. In this case it's not because he won't post, it's because he's too good at this game. Since i became 99% sure of the incorrect result one time when he was scum, it's safe to say that my general scumhunting analysis of him is useless. The only hope i could have is a meta analysis.

It's like if i had two thermometers, and one of them told me that it was 99 degrees when i was in alaska. I'm not going to use that thermometer again.. at least not in alaska. I have another thermometer, and i'm not sure how good it is, but that's what i'll go buy.

The only two ways i think i could determine RC's alignment is by that second thermometer, possibly unreliable, possibly unaccurate, or if he flips. Since that second thermometer is red, all signs point to lynching him.


The whole meta thing aside, the reason i'm voting him is a general tell that's enhanced by his meta actually. I think it's clear that he's externalizing blame a lot, scummy, and that he talked about SK more than he needed to. Scum players naturally like to talk about things that don't bear on their alignment - it's easier to talk about, you don't have to fight through the lying. The SK discussion was just the thing, i think that's why RC jumped in headfirst and loved it.

@RC- where have i not answered you're questions? I'm sure it hasn't happened extensively, you can repeat them like anyone else would instead of whining about me not answering your questions after just one or two instances.

@CFRiot- My take on the premature claim is that we probably do need to lynch Rhinox. I think Rhinox has been scummy. The original misread and horribly crappy and desperate coverup is lynch reason enough, and the vanilla claim means we really ought to decide whether Rhinox is scum or not. Based on my own analysis of setup possibilities, a suspicious vanilla townie is useless in night strategy, a jailkeeper won't want to target him anyway since he won't get night killed.

So, since CFriot's inquistions are all the input i got about night strat,

unvote, vote: Rhinox

Re: RC posts content when he's scum: RC does post lots of content when he's scum. The caps was mostly because it's a pain to read. I'm not saying him posting lots of content is a tell, that's ridiculous. I'm just saying that his posting much content is definitely not a towntell for him. Simple Bayes' theorem, he's not any less likely to post all that content when he's scum so don't count it in his favor.

I hope that answers you're question RC.

Since Rhinox could very well likely be the lynch for today, i think i'll be responsible and read some RC town. If BC is doing work i can do work. Do work, son!! I'll search for RC's games.

[popsofctown]

I read some RC-town. I didn't see anything that makes me feel better about his alignment in this game. He was having a lot less fun in that game than he's having now ~

[popsofctown]

I do indeed think there are; I think pops sticks out like a sore thumb.

Then why are your posts 90% focused on me, and very little focused on pops? I know... because you don't think you can convince the town to vote for pops, and you think that getting me lynched is the only way to prevent your own lynch...

Money ball^^^. RC's odd interaction with me is another tell i have that i keep forgetting to mention. He had a very delayed reaction to my claim that i had a meta tell, and in the past few pages tries to give off the notion that he's been on my case the whole game when he hasn't at all, he's barely thrown any text my way. Maybe he's trying to line up lynches that way, or maybe he doesn't want us to realize that he's being opportunistic. Either way it's weird.

Rhinox's explanation of the overreaction to misreading the thread is pretty good, but it's several pages late. And sorry Rhinox, the unpressed Vanilla claiming definitely gives off the appearance that you are a newbie.

@iamausername- at least someone understands it. I don't think i'm going unnecessarily overboard with it, like i said, these things i'm picking up on are tells anyway, just put into a special context. And just one game is a very unfit diminutive.. it was a very, very long game. And it was actual one game + a bit of another one that isn't over and i can't really talk about.

[popsofctown]

Ok, first off - I like the giant appeal to emotion here. I am the big bad SpyreX, just hewing through the unprotected with my powers! Or, not. Thought that appeals to emotion were a bad thing.

I'm not trying to manipulate anyone's feelings. I'm trying to explain how disgusting your play is to you. It's not anti-town. It's anti-game. You're basically saying that you would totally ignore evidence just because it doesn't exist in this game's thread.
[/quote]
I'm not bringing up my own meta to defend myself. It's a seperate issue where one of the players in this game is saying he's going to intentionally lynch people for action X even if he has reason to believe action X isn't scummy in this instance. Tantamount to saying you don't play games to win condition, which ticks me off.

Tell me if you actually think meta is 100% useless in determining someone's alignment. If that's really how you feel, i won't be ticked because that means you're actual trying to play the game to win (either scumhunting or pretending to). You'd be pretty wrong, but you wouldn't be a tool. But your example about lynching a player consecutive games in a row for the same action seems to imply that you acknowledge its application and choose to flout it and policy lynch people.

No, it was a "RC does this as

scum

." This is part of his meta read and, thusly, if he is saying that he does it as scum AND as town thats a different issue. Either way, I don't like it.

Did you read the post?
I said @whoever said RC-posts-content is a town tell: RC posts content as scum. So, if he also does it as town, its a null tell. This is probably the case. If he doesn't post content as town, which would be bizzare, it's a scumtell. Either way, it's not a town tell. I only wished to refute someone saying it was a towntell. It's definitely not a towntell here.

[popsofctown]

You guys need to play meat mafia.

Pretty much everyone uses card. Usually we do number cards=townie, ace or king is cop, queen is doctor, and the jacks are mafia.

[popsofctown]

maybe i miss understood you.

you are naturally abrasive.

[popsofctown]

Happy Birthday Jahudo!


Tying means, making it seems like i'm your scumpartner. As in, creating connections to me that lead people to believe we are partners.


I'm reading you within a limited capacity RC (basing you're alignment off my experience from just one game). But if i couldn't read you at all, i would certainly lynch you immediately. That's how people deal with K7, that's how you deal with any unreadable player.

I'm voting Rhinox right now though, because of the vanilla claim. If he's town you're next. If he's scum, I'd be surprised at your accuracy enough to at least wait. I actually put Rhinox at even money right now (back at starting point 0), from BC's testimonies and his consistency with the WIFOM logic and AtE. He's consistent to himself. But afaik, unless someone has more developed theory concepts than me, we need to lynch him because of the claim. And i think his flip would be quite an info mine.

[popsofctown]

you lynch claimed vanilla because claimed vanilla makes it easier for the scum to nightkill power roles by process of elimination.

[popsofctown]

Yes Jahudo, that's what i was saying.

As i said earlier, the lynching of Rhinox is a theory point that i was open to discussion with. BC has a convincing explanation of how i still need to feel Rhinox is somewhat scummy to justify his lynch. Right now, i'm not sure he is.

unvote, vote RC

To answer CFriot's question, if i didn't already, RC is at the top of my list because he's failin the meta i set up for him, and he has no other tests. I'll use K7 as an example again, poor guy. He's so unreadable, you want to lynch him D1 anyway. Now if he actually quit lurking long enough to say something scummy, then you would have double reason to vote him.
It's similar. RC has failed the only barometer i have for him.

[popsofctown]

i don't think Rhinox is that scummy though. Not as of now.

Of course, that could very well be the AtE clouding my judgment. ugh. this puts me on the fence. A picket fence. And it hurts my butt.

[popsofctown]

If you don't see the major, major, MAJOR flaw in your statement, then it is going to be very difficult to discuss any subject with you.

i tried to explain ad-hom to him once. he didn't get it

[popsofctown]

utterly screwed up quote tags. bionic breathed the words in the box

[popsofctown]

i know.

[popsofctown]

i can't say i didn't warn you

[popsofctown]

@Pops: Get out of the peanut gallery and respond to the accusations on you. It looks like you’re trying to stay on the sidelines and that is not happening this late in the day.

The peanut gallery is fun tho
The accusations against me are ridiculous. The main cases i see against me are: posting fluff and reading RC using meta.
Posting fluff is my scumtell? boosha. That's redonkulous. i post some fluff because i feel like it, but i put lots of game related information out too. If i wanted to keep from revealing scumtells by active lurking, would i post fluff and game posts at the same time? No, i would post only fluff. No that's not WIFOM. Posting fluff and game posts together doesn't even accomplish the intended goal, it doesn't keep me from posting text that could reveal my alignment. Fluff would only be a tell if it was a substitute for real content. You can actually read fluff btw. I read some fluff in my newbie game, caught scum D1. I told everyone about it on D2, but they said it was farfetched and didn't believe me. True story. After it was all said and done we ate spirit cookies.
As for the meta-treatment of RC, also still don't get how that's a scumtell. Ok, actually i sort of get this one. I can see how it could appear that i'm cloaking my reasons for voting another player. But i didn't do that. I explained to you guys 15 times why i'm voting RC and why it's a scumtell in general. Players, in general, will talk about aspects unrelated to alignment excessively because they can. He's done that all over the thread with the SK discussion, becoming absorbed with being right on an irrelevant theory point instead of asking how the discussion reflects on Rhinox's alignment. Players do that guys. I'm just emphasizing for myself because i saw him do it when i played with him.

Two major things I want to point out in this statement:

1) pops is lining up his lynches, and blantantly so. He doesn't seem to notice that we've been having a discussion for the past couple of pages that it's a fallacy to put me and Rhinox in a "good guy-bad guy" scenario.

2) pops also gets the same impression I got in post 369 that bionic's defense of Rhinox is very meta-based. When I brought this up, bionic confirmed his vote on me.

That looks bad. I still don’t know what his stance on Rhino’s AtE is though. It looks like he regarded it as a scum tell in 370 but other times he doesn’t.
@Pops: What do you really think of Rhino's AtE?

1) If it looked like i was lining up lynches earlier, it was because i thought i had to vote Rhinox for policy and then wanted you dead. The discussion on the priniciples of lynching vanilla townies has led me to believe that i can actually lynch you in good conscience. And it's not fallacious for me to think that Rhinox's alignment might

in a non-absolute capacity

reflect upon your alignment.

2)Does that have to do with my alignment?
@pops) You can't really tell what i think on it because i don't know what i think on it. Usually when i've seen it flow so consistently in spades like this, the player has been town. When it comes in at times for obvious mind-screwing, it's been scum. What bugs me though is that i am emotionally sympathetic, and everytime i read a Rhinox post i think it affects me, so i'm concerned that i had clouded judgment. I think usually the safe-side to err on in such instances is to kill the person who's clouding up your judgment.. but since what judgment i have on that person is not scum, and that person seems not to be appealing to emotion maliciously in this case, i'm going to go with my own evaluation and say Rhinox falls townside.


@spyrex- i blew up at you earlier because i thought you were communicating that you were lynching people you didn't find scummy. This should at least be understandable because BC mentions having the same impression at one point. I don't really have any conflict with you anymore.

Insisting that you've done all you can now, and stating that you shall now seclude yourself from all conversation is bad. You didn't talk very much about any player besides me. If i didn't know any better i would be concerned that you were avoiding interaction with scumpartners. [/sarcasm tag][cuz i knoes rishi is gonna say "aha! he knows better!"]

I don't think you've spent much time defending any players at all today, though you seem to claim to. Defending town aligned players is equally important as attacking scum players. Not equally. Close enough though. Ignore the weight of the pulley and all friction forces.


Does anyone know where huntress went?

[popsofctown]

i like this cat

[popsofctown]

*rolls stone in front of cave out of the way*

You just now saw Princess Bride for the first time! Oh my gosh LOL!

*rolls stone back*

[popsofctown]

Inconceivable

Go away or I'll call the Brute Squad. ~Vi

[popsofctown]

wow, he does have high activity standards.

unless princess bride discussion is counting for us

[popsofctown]

@CFRiot - I hope you realize that "the three times we didn't policy lynch K7 he was town" is very anecdotal. Besides that, you have perhaps a good argument why i should have played RC slower. I could have taken more time reading him, based on meta. At this point, though, he's amounted on the meta evidence since my initial vote, and we're deadlined, so i'm certainly not unvoting. If you guys really really think my actions towards RC look like voting and making up the reason later, all i suppose i can say is that i hope my D2 actions, should they come, are better.

@vanilla cliam stuff - I wasn't sure how much a vanilla claim should weigh. When i first asked for feedback, no one responded, then i got feedback later that i was weighing it to heavily, and it made sense so i changed my vote over to RC.

[popsofctown]

yes, it was a concept for protecting PRs. And at the time, i thought he was even money, not town.

[popsofctown]

The main cases i see against me are: posting fluff and reading RC using meta.

Just being oblivious to this game in general is, I think, a very fair attack against you pops.

It would be if i was oblivious to this game, but i'm not. I quite know what's going on. If you give me and Huntress and Rishi a quiz, i betcha i'll win. Betchoo a dolla coyote, betchoo a dolla.

If i wanted to keep from revealing scumtells by active lurking, would i post fluff and game posts at the same time? No, i would post only fluff. No that's not WIFOM.

Why isn't it WIFOM?

The line after it explains, so i wish you would have quoted that too. i'll explain again, it's analagous to "if i wanted to conceal that i've been eating cookies from the jar, i would have washed my face". There's no WIFOM there. You wouldn't not wash your face and show up to your mom and give her a WIFOM spiel about "hey, if i ate out of the cookie jar, wouldn't i wash my face? Think about it...", because you have crumbs all over your face.

In the same way, i wouldn't post content alongside fluff if i wanted to conceal scumtells, that doesn't even accomplish the goal. Fluff alongside content isn't a tell in any county anyway.

2)Does that have to do with my alignment?

If Jahudo doesn't need anymore than this, I do.

Does it give you any different opinion of bionic? Do you see his criticism of me and not you as hypocritical, given that we've essentially came to the same positions on bionic's defense of Rhinox?

He criticized you when you were being a mule and got into a nuh-uh yah-huh fight about whether his meta thinks Rhinox town. I just misunderstood once, he failed to correct me. I simply misunderstood, you argued that he misrepresented his own intentions, that you don't see this is startling.

Defending town aligned players is equally important as attacking scum players. Not equally. Close enough though.

I agree with this. pops, which town aligned players are you concerned about defending today?

Chiefly myself, my votecount isn't beautiful right now. Second Rhinox, i put him at even chances at being scum, while you're very scummy. No one else needs defending.

yes, it was a concept for protecting PRs. And at the time, i thought he was even money, not town.

Then it's your opinion that he is scum and I am town at the moment? I understand your first vote of Rhinox, I understand your switch to me, and I understand your switch back to Rhinox, but I don't understand your switch back to me this latest time. Did I do something recently that struck you the wrong way, or are you just resigned to the fact that I am a better lynch than Rhinox? I'd like this answer as soon as possible.

No. The story of my votes: first voted Rhinox for noobscummy tells. Then voted RC for greater transgressions in meta tells and general tells. Switch back to Rhinox because he claimed vanilla, and i was concerned that on the theory level that should mean autolynch, but then we talked about it and since my Rhinox suspicion went down during the duration of my second vote, i unvoted. So of course, the vote went back to RC, who was scummy in the first place and in general is getting worse and worse.

Right now i think Rhinox is at random chances for being scum, or perhaps ever so slightly below even chances.

[popsofctown]

As far as oblivious to the game goes, how about Spyrex refusing to comment on either main wagon nor choose a favorite and vote on it? *points* Come on guys, at least pretend to be looking at everyone equally.

[popsofctown]

refusing to commet further, yes.

[popsofctown]

you totally missed the point in my analogy. I can't get my point across sometimes.

The point i've been trying to make is that if i wanted to substitute fluff for content in an attempt to conceal scumtells, then i wouldn't have posted content. That's not even a substitution.

[popsofctown]

I want you to either pick between the two or say you think they are equally bad choices. You've said they're bad choices Spyrex, but I want to know which one you think is or worse or if it's a tie. It's a fair Trichotomy, not a false dichotomy.

[popsofctown]

Retraction.. it appears that originally i did say for you to pick one or the other. That's not what i meant to say. I should quit posting during physics, it's very distracting in there. Stick to minesweeper. Anyway, i'm looking for you to choose one or the other or explain why they're equally bad.

[popsofctown]

It is a scumtell not to eat apples. Pops eat apples and he eats pears. Therefore, because pops eats pears, he is scum.

Do you still not realize how inane the original argument is? Fluff in the absence of content is a scumtell because someone is avoiding game content and trying not to tip his hand. The fluff isn't even the issue. It's the lack of content. Fluff is sometimes used to conceal the lack of content, but that's not even the case here.

[popsofctown]

i perceived you as making one case and floating above the fray otherwise. But that's not really the case here it seems, actually. If you'd come and said, "Actually this one is really quite worse", then i'd be greatly concerned.

[popsofctown]

Moriarty147, can you compare and contrast the two most popular wagons for us?

[popsofctown]

@Rhinox - i was inquiring everyone who was not on either major wagon. I skipped you, Rhinox, for obvious reasons.
I pay less attention to Moriarty because she spends less time pushing crap on me. Sorry. Sue me.

@All: I still would like a Rhinox lynch. If we cannot get that I could join the pops wagon because of WIFOM, piggyback voting, and fluff posting.

Maybe we can get a tally of people who could join a smaller wagon because they don't like a larger one?

Actually we could have everyone say what persons they would like to see lynched and we could do a matrix. I'll start, i'm only willing to see RC lynched.

This. At the risk of sounding opportunist, I think a pops lynch is comparable to a Rhinox lynch, although I'd prefer the latter.

Here are three solid reasons why pops is a better lynch than me:

1)

Flighty material that interferes negatively with the game

Oh my flipping gosh. Lighten up. Yeah, sure, my two line riddles totally threw off everyone's focus on the game, making it functionally unreadable.

It would be if i was oblivious to this game, but i'm not.

We've got one other major suspect. One that, at this point, I'm happy to vote. Come on down...

Pops, why do you keep hitting me??

Vote: Popsofctown

I dunno why you quoted these. Spyrex votes pops you should too?

pops 128 - Addresses Huntress
pops 130 - Vote Rhinox
pops 132 - Riddling and Korts
pops 139 - Riddles
pops 141 - Serious about Riddles
pops 142 - Hurry up with the Riddles
pops 143 - Please! Riddles!
pops 145 - Mod you're such a card!
pops 148 - Korts again... also Rhinox

spin it however you want RC. You take an objective look at this thread and my content matches Rishi, Huntress, and anyone.

On the flipside, we've got pops who has managed not to mention me by name (yet referenced my call on fluff AND my note of his poking on Korts) - whereas earlier interactions with people holding supsicion was followed up directly.

When did spyrex ask me a question, and what question was it? Maybe i thought it was rhetorical.

Not that fluff in and of itself is often that bad to me, the problem is when a vote against you doesn't get your attention... when you claim you thought the post was rhetorical. This is why I originally suspected pops, this behavior seems careless. Either he's not paying enough attention to the game or he delibrately ignored Spy. Not comfortable with either position.

172 isn't a response to 149, the way you quoted makes me think you're repainting history.
It's hard to follow games with massive walls in them. Whatever question Spyrex was complaining about, he never could pick it out when i said i was ultimately unsure which one it was. So if it was some obvious sore thumb right before one of my posts, he didn't care to point it out himself.

2)

Questionable voting patterns/reasons

I've decided to read [RC] mostly on meta, because when i read him just like everyone else he consistently slips by, so i might be using poorly explained reasons some this game, i'll try to be glass man like Korts as much as possible though.

The thing about me pre-emptively saying my reasoning against RC might be poorly explained is more or less fair. I probably shouldn't say something like that, but instead just explain on each instance the meta-significance of why i might find him suspicious, try to explain how it rel.ates to my other game with him, etc.

The first bold is me saying [RC] didn't answer his questions as curtly as he could. It's suspicious, especially in terms of his meta.

To his credit, he says that he may have been a little too forthcoming with these statements, but that doesn't stop him from continuing to use them!

Let's see how questionable it is when you flip RC. I'm beginning to think i know what i'm doing.

Sometimes [RC]'s longwinded, and sometimes he can't get to the point faster (usually when he's not lying about something it would seem to me. I haven't played with him as town, but sometimes he's lying about something and sometimes he's addressing points that aren't lies. In retrospect those are less longwinded). The quote sort of represents the game as a whole really.

...

There you go. If it's a legit tell, now he's acutely aware of it and it won't happen again. The guy's nearly unreadable and you take what little scraps i can put together away from me. It makes me very very emo kid.

I have another meta-rooted tell for RC, which may or may not be valid.

i had an argument with RC about alignment-based-ad hom.

But basically, Rhinox is adhomming himself.

I think RC is trying to tie himself to me actually. Defending me, but not addressing any accusations i make against him

How is one supposed to argue a meta-read on themselves in a way that isn't completely drenched in WIFOM?

How am I defending you and suspecting you at the same time?

I dunno how you defend youreslf from a meta-read. You figure it out.
The second sentence i'd like to bold. Total BS. I say you're tying yourself to me, and then from that point on you start screaming that i'm suspicious and start acting like you've been saying that the whole thread. When you hadn't, you'd rarely if ever expressed that. That's one of the things that makes me think your scum.
The bolded statement is massive bantha pudu. A statement consistent to what's happened in this thread is "how could i be defending you if later on when i get scared about it i act suspicious of you?".

Rhinox, you seem less scummy to me right now. But i can't clearly decide if i feel that way because of your massive AtE or because of actual evidence you've shown. So now i have to lynch you. Do you see how that lurks?

You can't decide if I'm scum because you can't read me, so you vote me. You can't decide if Rhinox is scum because of his appeals, so you end up voting him.

It's suspicious to make oneself unreadable. So in a sense, i can't read him, but that itself becomes a sole tipping tell: this person has made themselves unreadable to me, this is scummy.
My position has moved since.

Both positions come off as weak to me.

In the past few pages, i've been getting less gut feeling about Rhinox being scum. Is it because she's actually town, or because she appeals to emotion every other post? I can't say which. So i would think i need to err on the side of uncharitable judgments, since he's the one who's using appeal-to-emotion for his defense.

If i don't read RC based on some kind of meta, i won't be able to read him at all.

Bandwagon voting? I really think RC is scum. This looks like RC scum. I don't know how i can explain this better.

no one seems to understand my special treatment of RC. He's like K7, in a different way, evidence shows that i can't read him. In this case it's not because he won't post, it's because he's too good at this game. Since i became 99% sure of the incorrect result one time when he was scum, it's safe to say that my general scumhunting analysis of him is useless. The only hope i could have is a meta analysis.

Just constantly harping back to his notion that he cannot read me, so this excuses his vote on me if it's wrong.

I don't want to excuse anything.
[quote="RC]

But if i couldn't read [RC] at all, i would certainly lynch [RC] immediately.

RC has failed the only barometer i have for him.

Which is, of course, why you shouldn't

bother to consider the fact that I'm town

, that your meta-read is incomplete and full of holes, and that the little interaction between players besides me and Rhinox has usually been about one of us. [/quote]
He says stuff like the bold when he's scum.
I think my meta is probably right. Like, i put it at about 75% chance of being a positive tool. The chance it's no good is there, but i'm gonna go with what's probable here.
Not being able to play with children other than Rhinox is not an excuse for playing rough with Rhinox and playing rough on the occasion we let you play with the other children. You know it'd be horrendous if they caught the mono, that's why we keep you two in.

i don't think Rhinox is that scummy though. Not as of now.

Of course, that could very well be the AtE clouding my judgment.

And how is this different from the position you had in post 276? You still can't read Rhinox.

Rhinox's AtE makes me waffly. I hate it, i dunno what to do with it.
Right now, i've decided it's so consistent and so much looks like standard consistent VI that i'm going to put him in my town box, though i hold reservations about him being the one who initiated the clouding of my judgment.

As for the meta-treatment of RC, also still don't get how that's a scumtell. Ok, actually i sort of get this one. I can see how it could appear that i'm cloaking my reasons for voting another player. But i didn't do that. I explained to you guys 15 times why i'm voting RC and why it's a scumtell in general.

It was a bad reason then and it's a bad reason now.

I can use repetition fallacy too RC!
Pops is town, pops is town, pops is town, RC is scum, RC is scum, RC is scum, RC is scum, pops' jokes are funny, pops' jokes are funny, pops' jokes are funny, pops' jokes are funny, pops' jokes are funny.

What all this boils down to: pops can't read me or Rhinox, and pops thinks that if I was scum I would talk about an SK. Period.

I can strawman too RC! RC thinks i'm scum because I think he's scum.

You would talk about an SK if you were scum, you would answer simple questions with drawn out answers if you were scum, you would ignore me for half the thread and then act like you were already suspicious of me if you were scum.
Look, if there were a 25% chance some player was scum, and a 75% chance they were even chances for being scum and you'd never get to see any tells... isn't that an obvious lynching situation? that's what i have on my hands here.

3)

Bandwagoning, bandwagoning, bandwagoning.

In other news, i'm about as sure about Rhinox being scum right now as i am about RC.

either way, that tell is good, so

unvote, vote RedCoyote

Switches votes after bionic moves from Rhinox to me with the statement that he wants to see either of us lynched.

So, since CFriot's inquistions are all the input i got about night strat,

unvote, vote: Rhinox

username and CF Riot say that it's tough to defend Rhinox after his premature claim, and pops follows suit.

Bandwagonning on theory beliefs is not bandwagoning. It's learning. I tried to figure out on what our policy should be on an early vanilla claim, and my vote moved around until i understood.

I'm voting Rhinox right now though, because of the vanilla claim. If he's town you're next. If he's scum, I'd be surprised at your accuracy enough to at least wait.

If Rhinox is town then I am scum.

Probably should have explained that post better, but for the second time, Rhinox would have only been a policy lynch, so i would have wanted to lynch you to actually get someone i was suspicious of. I'd only reconsider that if i got some contrary evidence, like a successful D1 scumhunt.

As i said earlier, the lynching of Rhinox is a theory point that i was open to discussion with. BC has a convincing explanation of how i still need to feel Rhinox is somewhat scummy to justify his lynch. Right now, i'm not sure he is.

unvote, vote RC

bionic does indeed help you come to decisions. You loved his case against me enough to vote me the first time (and, oh yeah, the metatells) and you love his explanation enough to vote me again.

BC is smart. He's good people.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with gleaning theory info from BC. Scumhunting target plagiarism is more questionable, but i think i clearly had much of my own ideas involved in voting you and was not just me-tooing.

---

The point i've been trying to make is that if i wanted to substitute fluff for content in an attempt to conceal scumtells, then i wouldn't have posted content. That's not even a substitution.

So then you think that it's less scummy to post all fluff than it is to mix fluff and content? Why?

Strike that, reverse it. It's not scummy to mix fluff and content, it's scummy to post all fluff.
Posting fluff isn't a scumtell. Failing to post content is a scumtell.

As far as oblivious to the game goes, how about Spyrex refusing to comment on either main wagon nor choose a favorite and vote on it? *points* Come on guys, at least pretend to be looking at everyone equally.

Why is Spy more guilty of this than Moriarty? I mean, why do you wait until post 441 to bring his name up? I think both players have made their intentions clear as to who they would prefer between me and Rhinox.

I do players one at a time, haven't i said that already? Spyrex declared that he would not select one wagon nor the other, and was done posting stuff for the day. I was looking for a statement that both wagons were equal before he quit in such a way. Moriarty made no vow to quit, that's why she got paid attention to second. Besides outofsightoutofmind.

So of course, the vote went back to RC, who was scummy in the first place and in general is getting worse and worse.

You mean I'm getting worse than your one and a half (I'd be hard pressed to even call it a half since I made all of 2 posts? 3 posts?) game meta-read in which both games I was scum? Worse than your claim that you have to lynch me because you can't read me?

I didn't think you could get much worse than that. This is complete filler.

OMGUS doesn't help. Cos' i really think you liked your own case on Rhinox better, but i think i've stepped on your tail.
So yeah, you're getting worse.
---

One more thing, to straighten this bionic thing once and for all. If bionic thinks he has me pegged another way, so be it. Here is my interpretation of events as simple as I can make it:

bionic v RC

RC 340: Bionic, what is your meta-read on me if you have a town meta-read on pops/Rhinox
bionic 344: Show me where I've specifically said I have a town meta-read on Rhinox
RC 369: You did not specifically state it, but here is how I arrived to the conclusion
bionic 371: lol no confim vote
RC 385: Huh? Why isn't it valid? I think you're trying to trap me
bionic 386: because you have some horrible logic
RC 390: Let's discuss this. pops has the same point of view as I do. Let me explain to you how I came to my conclusion
bionic 392: no! my meta-read on rhinox is inconclusive!!!
RC 396: lol ok why didn't you just say that?

If it isn't entrapment, why didn't bionic merely state that I was incorrect and that he didn't arrive to any conclusions on Rhinox in post 344 or even 371?

quoting since i'm quoting this whole post, but i dont think this bit is my business.
---

So then all that's left to do is

vote: popsofctown

.

I ohmygod suck a lot more as Rhinox's wagon becomes unpopular, don't i.

Mainly I want to hear from Rishi and Huntress. I'm pretty sure I know which way everyone else is going to go today barring anything major. I'll check back with the thread and claim tomorrow if nothing has changed.

I'd say we ought to have Rishi Htress feedback before RC's claim, if we can manage. I mean, if i am going to be the lynch for the day after all, there's no sense in RC having a claim out.

[popsofctown]

are you not the same one who was all "rawr, pops is lurker hunting one player at a time, rawr, he's being biased, rawr". I get irritated about things the second time. If you're not the same person who bugged me once, sorry.

[popsofctown]

I don't know how to show that i've posted content in this thread besides a nuh-uh yuh-huh fight. I'll quote every single content post i've ever made, and then put that alongside all of someone else's content and show you i have more. Would you like for me to do that? A page of this thread will become a wall of utter quote pain, but i'll do it.

[popsofctown]

Why the specific talk to Rishi?

Why mention Korts and username and leave me oddly out, once again?

pops was canoodling with the mod about riddles and replacements and so forth, that's not good enough for you Spy?

FoS: popsofctown

RC, that's all you had before the tie accusation. And it seems really forced.

[popsofctown]

I'll start, i'm only willing to see RC lynched.

You find no one else scummy besides me?

Some lurkers for lurking. But no one comes close to you.

Yeah, sure, my two line riddles totally threw off everyone's focus on the game, making it functionally unreadable.

9 posts != two lines of riddles. We're here to have fun, but we're also here to play this game. When someone votes you, with the significant reason for doing so the fluffy nature of your posts, and you ignore him in favor of more fluff, how do you think that makes you look?

I didn't respond to Spyrex's earliest offenses because he was using the sort of stuff that's weak but indefensible, iirc. I could have quoted him and done a colon P, but i'm guessing you wouldn't have liked that.

You're breaking up my argument in a very strange way. You stated that you've not been oblivious to this game, I quoted what I find to be your worst offense of this game, the height of obliviousness, Spy putting serious weight on your growing wagon while you completely ignore it.

You take an objective look at this thread and my content matches Rishi, Huntress, and anyone.

It's not about the raw number of posts that contain content pops, it's about how you went about favoring fluff over content at times that really called for content.

Let me play my own game RC. If i don't want to address someone who's saying something like "he's scum because he asked us a riddle" or "only scum use meta" (that's not an exact quote, and it's extreme strawmanning but it's just examples), because i think they can stand alone against the town's scrutiny, let it be. I defend myself when i think a suspicion is pretty heavy unless debunked. I mean do you remember Spyrex's post that voted me dude? "Here's a story about a bunch of guys that spilled salt and then made a big deal about it. On an unrelated note, vote:pops", paraphrase.

172 isn't a response to 149, the way you quoted makes me think you're repainting history.

I misunderstood your post 172 then. Whatever the case, why would you consider a vote rhetorical? Do you mean to say you thought Spy was just trying to pressure you into posting more content at the time?

I don't consider votes rhetorical. At some point, Spy said he asked me a question that i never answered for him. Then i said "i'm sorry, where is it? I might have accidentally skipped it because i thought it was a rhetorical question." Then i said i'd find it myself. Then i said i wasn't sure which one it was after looking on my own. No one ever said what/where/which the question really was.

I'm beginning to think i know what i'm doing.

Beginning to? You've been saying that I should be the lynch because you can't read me basically since the game started.

I'm beginning to think my meta is good. And that's a strawman, i've been saying you're scummy by meta and besides that i read you very poorly.

I say you're tying yourself to me, and then from that point on you start screaming that i'm suspicious and start acting like you've been saying that the whole thread.

No sir, this is wholly inaccurate. The first time you bring up the "tying" argument is in post 217. You should be aware of my suspicions since post 152, when I formally said as much.

Yeah, this stirred me up enough to make me double post. a forced bizarre insert in another post was not enough justification for you to start carrying on like you've been against me all thread long.

It's suspicious to make oneself unreadable.

Not only do I completely disagree with this, I don't even agree that I've been "unreadable".

It's definitely suspicious to intentionally make oneself unreadable. But that has nothing to do with you, this quote is about Rhinox's AtE making him unreadable.

I don't want to excuse anything.

Then why do you continue to say things like,

"In the past few pages, i've been getting less gut feeling about Rhinox being scum. Is it because she's actually town, or because she appeals to emotion every other post? I can't say which."
"i won't be able to read [RC] at all."
"He's like K7, in a different way, evidence shows that i can't read him. In this case it's not because he won't post, it's because he's too good at this game."

What are we supposed to think about this? That it's okay if I flip town because you couldn't read me anyways?

I say stuff like that because i believe in being honest with the town, although this game is seriously shaking that belief.
But i don't mean to dissociate myself from responsibility for the lynch. If people want to apply Bayes' theorem and say i've been lynching too much town and count this one in, that's totally legit.

Not being able to play with children other than Rhinox is not an excuse for playing rough with Rhinox and playing rough on the occasion we let you play with the other children. You know it'd be horrendous if they caught the mono, that's why we keep you two in.

I have no idea what this means or what it's refering to.

You were whining about how the thread is only about you and Rhinox. That doesn't acquit you of any suspicion.

I can strawman too RC! RC thinks i'm scum because I think he's scum.

Huh? How could that be all you've gotten out of what I said? None of my reasons have anything to do with what you think of me, it's the reasons you claim that have gotten you there that trouble me.

No, RC, you don't get it. Strawmanning is bad. I'm suggesting that you were strawmanning. My example of strawmanning is just a joke.
If you have no sense of humor, just read that bit as "what i've quoted here is a strawman".

Bandwagonning on theory beliefs is not bandwagoning. It's learning. I tried to figure out on what our policy should be on an early vanilla claim, and my vote moved around until i understood.

BC is smart. He's good people.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with gleaning theory info from BC.

Why are CF Riot, RC, and username's opinions inherently less valuable than those of bionic or Rhinox? If anything me and Rhinox should cancel out, seeing as how we have a bias in the argument, but that still leaves it at a two-to-one.

username and CFRiot are both against policy lynching over vanilla claims. That's the way i understood it. Like, they think it's something you should weigh in but you shouldn't lynch one that's not suspicious.

I mean, it appears to me you were just looking for a reason not to have to vote Rhinox.

OMGUS doesn't help. Cos' i really think you liked your own case on Rhinox better, but i think i've stepped on your tail.

I do, I think Rhinox is scummy as ever.

But that doesn't mean I think you're townie.

And it's laughable that you would label my vote as OMGUS at this stage of the game given the circumstances.

Finally you laugh at something. If you flip town, and i doubt you will, i'm calling you town tightwad. But if you're scum it's ok to be tense. Being scum makes me pretty tense.

I'd say we ought to have Rishi Htress feedback before RC's claim, if we can manage. I mean, if i am going to be the lynch for the day after all, there's no sense in RC having a claim out.

Based on post 325 by OGML, and with Jahudo and CF Riot's recent commentary, I do believe you can be lynched today pops.

It's unfortunate that Rishi, Huntress, and username have really put this game on the back burner, because it forces me into a very awkward position.

It's basically forcing me to put all my chips on Rhinox, a person who I do think is scum. Rhinox has claimed multiple times that he doesn't see me as scum, so I think he'd be hardpressed to vote me at L-2 if pops is going to be at L-1 on Thursday (assuming CF Riot, Jahudo, and OGML's opinions have not changed, and given that Rishi, Huntress, and username are all wild cards).

That being said, I'm putting the farm on the pops wagon. As you can tell, I'm foregoing the claim I promised I would make, mainly because, and I agree with pops on this point, neither Huntress nor Rishi have made their positions clear like bionic, Jahudo, Spy, or CF Riot.

I hope you can post again. The claim->lynch order of business is really kind of nice.
I can check the thread enough for L-1 claiming, as a note.

[popsofctown]

it is deadline day guys. VOTE

[popsofctown]

What?
I thought OGML said he'd be back at the end of the day the day after mardi gras to vote just before the deadline. And they call it fat tuesday. Maybe i'm off.

RC for Lynchident

[popsofctown]

It is called mafia jailbreak...

I believe bionic's claim, because i think he's town. I don't believe RC's claim. It's way too late. A jailer wouldn't be so reluctant to claim, because it's not a powerful role. Can't roleblock without protecting, can't protect without roleblocking.

I still favor RC lynch. If he's not a jailer, we have another one, and it's not like jailer is the end-all be-all role. However, in light of the claim, i'm willing to switch to Rhinox, who as i've said, i have a slight town read on but look darkly upon because he's claimed vanilla, for the lynch.

[popsofctown]

oh dear, Rhinox gives our scumhunting an f....

posts later, i have HW

[popsofctown]

oh Vi.. isn't the info of who didn't send night actions TMI? Do you choose automatic targets for people who fail to send in a night choice? What about for roles that have only positive effects like watcher?

No PM, no action.

Certain parties watching the game from outside have informed me that that was a bad mod-move. It won't happen again. ~Vi

[popsofctown]

I don't think Rhinox seemed so scummy that you would be looking for cross killage. More likely the mafia decided Rhinox's townieness would increase over time, especially after the correct read on RC, but was not at a state to get him targetted for watcher, jailkeeper, or doctor today.

[popsofctown]

Aha!

What's an even better explanation for odd killage like this is scum avoiding dead-ending. When you yourself, the scum, has publicly fingered someone as town, you know it will be hard to lynch that person since they can't help that lynch along.

I couldn't really think of anyone who had rhinox fingered as town, except, just now, Spyrex!, who seems scummy anyway. Spyrex's tunneling on me has been queer, and i don't like how he suggested early in the game that we should be lurker hunting and then does nothing of the kind (scumpartners?). And the fact that multiple people have said "oh spyrex is scummy" in passing without saying why (maybe that was just one person but it's still fishy) makes me suspicious of him, quite possibly they are scumpartners. Worst-case-scenario their townie guts are agreeing with me.

vote: Spyrex

We should get a night action claim from BC, should we not?

[popsofctown]

Vi, quit giving bionicchop uber safe night-choice-claims!

[popsofctown]

Err, i intended my vote as a daystart conjecture rather than a stump some people seem to think it is. I'm def interested in other people.

[popsofctown]

It really, really isn't. SpyreX was getting along just fine pushing the underdog pops wagon yesterday, so why would Rhinox's survival change that today? Either the suspicion of Rhinox from yesterday would be enough to get him lynched today without scumSpyreX's help, or the growing support for the pops agon towards the end of the day would continue enough to get him lynched today. From the position that pops is claiming to hold, that's a town lynch either way, and a strong likelihood of one where SpyreX doesn't get his hands dirty by being part of it, so why would he think scumSpyreX would want to avoid that situation?

When i read this, i kind of had to agree that i've been debunked.

unvote: spyrex

Maybe my interpretation of the night actions was a bit omgussy. I'm not scum though, btw.

And the fact that multiple people have said "oh spyrex is scummy" in passing without saying why (maybe that was just one person but it's still fishy) makes me suspicious of him, quite possibly they are scumpartners. Worst-case-scenario their townie guts are agreeing with me.

Why say "multiple people" at all when you know that is a lie?

Uh, wow, this is really hostile. I thought it was more than one person, it might have just been one. I don't know why you assume that

i know

exactly one person said it. By what evidence did you decide i knew exactly one person said it but put it the way i did anyway? There's a lot of hypocrisy in your post really, since you are "lying" about a lie i didn't tell, and the hypocrisy you admitted to.


Huntress: Why do you think Spyrex is scum?

[popsofctown]

Pops:

<snip>Re: Redcoyote case: no one seems to understand my special treatment of RC…. evidence shows that i can't read him. …. it's safe to say that my general scumhunting analysis of him is useless. The only hope i could have is a meta analysis…..
Since Rhinox could very well likely be the lynch for today, i think i'll be responsible and read some RC town

1) What did this post mean? Did you know if RC-town talked about "aspects unrelated to alignment" or not?

I still think RC is scummy. His defense is scummy too

2) What does this quote mean? At other times you have clearly stated you can't read RC but here you clearly do.

-------

Slowly finding Rhinox less suspicious:

Vote: Rhinox

I challenged him on appeal to emotion, and more or less all i'm getting is him saying that that's the only defense he has for himself. Issues like totally misinterpreting me (ties in with "scum skim threads") and contradicting himself about his suspicions (ties in with scum aren't genuinely suspicious of anyone) are major issues. Appeal to emotion just makes it worse.

Either Rhinox or RC is lynchalicious right now. RC needs teh pressure more though.

Rhinox, you seem less scummy to me right now. But i can't clearly decide if i feel that way because of your massive AtE or because of actual evidence you've shown.

This feels like a big change of opinion from post 130.
3) Why didn't you acknowledge "misinterpreting, contradicting, AtE makes it worse" in later posts? Where did you say these weren't scumtells? It looks like you still believed them in post 186, but not 276.

-------

Slowly finding Rhinox less and less suspicious (Part 2):

My take on the premature claim is that we probably do need to lynch Rhinox.

I think Rhinox has been scummy.

The original misread and horribly crappy and desperate coverup is lynch reason enough, and the vanilla claim means we really ought to decide whether Rhinox is scum or not.

I actually put Rhinox at even money right now

(back at starting point 0), from BC's testimonies and his consistency with the WIFOM logic and AtE.

i don't think Rhinox is that scummy though.

Not as of now.

Right now

i think Rhinox is at random chances for being scum

, or perhaps ever so slightly below even chances.

4) How do you explain the changes of opinion in the parts I bolded? You clearly went form finding Rhinox scummy in post 348 to quickly changing that opinion less than 30 posts later, until you seem to have nothing to say he looks suspicious in post 425.
5) What happened to the reasons given in post 348 to call Rhinox scum?

-------
A) I think its possible pops used "meta" to fake suspicion on RC and justify his vote switch when it seemed like momentum switched from Rhinox to RC, particularly after BC's long post that showed interest switch to RC. The meta gives him a reason to find RC's SK discussion suspicious but it doesn't seem like a confidant enough reason to keep a vote on if RC is at L-1.

B) Pops was claiming he couldn't read RC, which allows him as scum to avoid having to fake scumhunting, but it also makes his vote feel less confidant. Post 203 is one example of him baselessly reading RC as scummy, which is vague and also contradictory if he still claims to be unable to read RC.

C) Early Rhinox suspicions like "misinterpreting, contradicting, AtE makes it worse" were dropped without reason. AtE was downgraded from "makes it worse" to pops being unsure if it's scummy.

D) His Rhinox suspicions went back up when Rhinox claimed, and although he states his vote switch was "on policy" he actually said Rhinox seemed scummy and "desperate coverup is reason enough to lynch". This doesn't look like a policy vote. It looks like a suspicion vote. But when RC looks like a better lynch, pops slowly downgrades his suspicions using baseless valuations like "even money" and "random or slightly below even chances".

=====
Pops looks very opportunistic from day 1, trying to avoid from pushing accusations when he votes and not qualifying his flip-flopping opinion of Rhinox beyond changing his opinion of AtE on a whim. He looks most scummy to me right now but I'll wait from voting until we hear more from him.

I thought i pretty clearly explained my unclear position on Rhinox D1... I felt he had committed scummy actions, but after awhile his noobiness and AtE became so consistent i was slowly beginning to think he was town in my gut. But my resulting reaction was hey, that's what AtE is, maybe he's just manipulating me. So i was very unsure about Rhinox and went back and forth.


CFRiot, i was saying Vi was giving easy night targets for BC because BC-scum could easily read the list of who didn't send a night action and pick one. Of course that person can't say "BC is scum because i succesfully performed a night action", because they didn't send one in.

Were there any other questions? If we're not done trying to interpret the kill, i think it might have been a stir-the-pot so that we ignore lurkers.

[popsofctown]

yeah, i misread the no-pms list .

Jahudo 1)
Yes, i went back and read one of his games where he was town. He only talked about the game, and shied away from theory discussion.
Jahudo 2)
The quoted part is judgments coming from my meta on how he defends himself as scum. Possibly overconfidented by some OMGUS.

@Rishi: as i said earlier, my thoughts on Spyrex was just a jumpstart for the day, i wasn't fully convinced that that's the only possible interpretation of the night action. IAU made a really good argument for how my interpretation wasn't even good after you account for the fact that any night interpretation is WIFOM. Right now i think the kill was a sort of lurker smokescreen. For people like you, who didn't even bother to send in a night action.

Sometimes i think Spyrex is scum tunneling on me, sometimes i think he's town. I can't tell if he's truly mistaken or not.


@people accusing me of backtracking- please, no. Am i not allowed to be wrong? I never said that my position was a stump, but people immediately started blowing it up and saying i was "taking a position". It was an L-max vote, the only people who made it seem like anything more than a vote on a notion were people misrepping me, not me.

[popsofctown]

@Pops: I feel like you're still avoiding my questions.

Why did you say Rhinox was misinterpreting, contradicting, and had a desperate coverup, but you never pursued these accusations, if only for curiosity because you stated Rhinox was "lynchalicious"?

Why the quick turnaround from post 348 to 370? Your excuse wasn't "he was acting like a noob" in post 276. Why didn't he look like a newbie to you until late in the day?

My mind fought my gut on Rhinox. My head said he had done textbook tells, my gut said that he was fitting the profile of newbtown and was being consistent about it. Such conflict resulted in flipflopping. I'm not gonna say i didn't waffle D1. All i can do is try to explain why.

Yes, i went back and read one of his games where he was town. He only talked about the game, and shied away from theory discussion.

Was that the first time you looked at RC-town?

He doesn't have a dynasty of games for me to look at. I found

a

game where he was playing town and read it. I do what i can.

The quoted part is judgments coming from my meta on how he defends himself as scum. Possibly overconfidented by some OMGUS.

OMGUS on who’s part?

to be continued, changing comps

[popsofctown]

sorry, will post tomorrow

[popsofctown]

I never said that my position was a stump, but people immediately started blowing it up and saying i was "taking a position".

Do you still feel right about any part of your "conjecture"?

Who was the "multiple people have said 'oh spyrex is scummy" you had in mind when you wrote that post?

One or more, i wasn't sure. Huntress is one.

If we're not done trying to interpret the kill, i think it might have been a stir-the-pot so that we ignore lurkers.

Do you have other interpretations?

BC did it, because he can't shift his position on either me or Rhinox, and he didn't want to get watched. But i don't think that's it, because BC seems clean to me. He went back into my old games and then gave a creepy good read on me. I'm actually probably gonna need to avoid him in other games.

Jahudo, why do you feel like you need to hear Pops's responses before voting today, when you were considering lynching him yesterday just before deadline? Is there any reason you are choosing to question him before voting, rather than questioning him with a vote on him?

I didn’t like how fast that wagon gained momentum when Moriarty, Rishi and OGML hadn’t posted anything substantial. I’d still like to hear more from them but pops if my #1 suspect independent of their absence.

So heartwarming. Because even if you don't contribute at all, you're contributing less than pops the fluff poster. Even if you also use WIFOM in your night action interpretation, you didn't do it as wrong as pops did. Even if you also voted for RC, it's pops fault because he's doing it wrong.

We saw the spotlight shine on two town players all of day 1. Maybe letting the spotlight fall where it may is not a good plan here guys.

@Huntress: Why do you think Spyrex is scummy?
@Rishi: Are you scum? You seriously seem to post just enough, too much. Who do you think is scum, at least two names, and explanations please.

[popsofctown]

I didn't say "they were town, i am town"

I'm saying "letting the spotlight center around two people while allowing people to lurk is bad," "letting the spotlight center around one person while allowing others to lurk is bad".

[popsofctown]

If we're not done trying to interpret the kill, i think it might have been a stir-the-pot so that we ignore lurkers.

Right now i think the kill was a sort of lurker smokescreen.

Can you explain these a bit more please. How does the kill act as a lurker smokescreen?

Everyone starts talking about the kill interpretations, then quickly points a finger at someone who actually *talked* yesterday. Then we start focussing on that person they defend themselves and the lurkers get to say "oh me too". And we ignore the lurkers.
This is a concern because if that was the intent, it looks like it's getting fulfilled.

And the fact that multiple people have said "oh spyrex is scummy" in passing without saying why (maybe that was just one person but it's still fishy) makes me suspicious of him, quite possibly they are scumpartners. Worst-case-scenario their townie guts are agreeing with me.

Would this make you more suspicious of SpyreX or of the people who said it?

I think you missed replying to this.

[/quote]
More suspicious of the people saying that. At the time though, the NK interpretation pushed Spyrex ahead of the people saying that. Now the people saying that are ahead, and it looks like it was person saying that, you.

[popsofctown]

Please quit saying "once pops flips scum". For one, it's false. For two, even if you thought it was true, if you had any sense at all you'd know it's possibly false. And three, it makes me feel like you need to cut off discussion on my alignment to get me lynched, and just repeat that i'm scum, which calls on the repitition fallacy which is not very becoming of young dragons like yourself, spyro. And four, there is no four. But a good list ought to have a four, even if it's a mere placeholder for a substitute of a doppelganger of itself.

[popsofctown]

However, I have no reason to believe I am wrong at this juncture. Thus, you are scum.

Non-sequitir of the day.

Do you see how your poor choice of language creates a case of repitition fallacy? Fallacies are ugly things that are of no necessity when you play town.

[popsofctown]

he's not cutting off conversation so much as ceasing to appeal to logic to convince people i'm scum. Less and less he has reasons, more and more he just says i'm scum.

Repetition fallacy is a human fallacy somewhat similar to confirmation bias, no one would agree to it consciously but it affects people on a subconscious level. If a conclusion is repeated enough times, people begin to accept it as true. I class it along with AtE as "stuff that can cloud people's judgment" and so i don't think it has any place in a mafia game.
Scum appeal to repition fallacy sometimes to get a mislynch, (even if they don't know the term they know that blankly repeating the position helps), but that's not necessarily the case here, because townies do it a lot too.

[popsofctown]

BC, can you explain that in a way i'd understand?

[popsofctown]

@CFRiot: i contested them. If you believe i was unsuccessful in refuting him, that's no excuse for him to repeat his conclusion with impossible sureness over and over again.

[popsofctown]

When did i say i hate fluff? When?

[popsofctown]

ok, fine. I void the usage of yesterday as an example, since it's somehow fallacious. That aside, you'd all agree based on your basic knowledge of mafia that we need to get some attention at all the hiding players today.

I'm sorry for possibly employing the fallacy i was complaining about, it is in fact wrong for me and anyone to use IMO. I'll try to stop.

Right now i'm awaiting Huntress's promised post.

@iamusername: you quoted something and said that people weren't misrepresenting me. The misrep is not about me thinking Spyrex is scummy. I think he is somewhat scummy based off tunneling. The misrep bit is when people called my conjecture about the night actions a "position". It was an idea, i thought people would recognize night action accusations are light feathery things but apparently no one else was on the same page with me.

[popsofctown]

On one hand, i'm glad you don't believe me to be town. On the other hand, are you sucking up to the guy who was talking about lurker hunting?

Rishi, try to keep posting. Right now i do think Rishi is legit.

Waiting on Huntress's post.

[popsofctown]

Huntress is being an annoying hairsplitter right now. "i never said i don't want to random vote, i just didn't. I never said I won't random vote, just not right now". Look, Huntress, cheetah thing, i dunno if you're town or scum, but if you keep the conversation around hairsplits i'm going to get confused and screw up the game.

I don't know about anyone else's capacities for nonsense, i don't have much. So please, stop it.

Spyrex, everyone in this thread complains about fluff, perhaps without the keyword.

12 players is a lot in a game and i just haven't really addressed you i guess. It's OK. Everyone's inner child wants popsofctown to pay attention to them. Wink

I'm giving specific attention to Rishi because he has no vote right now, and i'd like to hear some opinions with him. I figure my case on Rhinox would either put him one way or the other. I already know where you stand, you're voting me are you not?

I'd also like to hear the points on me because i want to know what the most important points against me are.

Unless you complain about things you like or are not included in your subset of "everyone" you are saying you hate fluff (if this was not the case, you would not have addressed my issue the way you did).

Oh my goshh are you for real spyro? I complain about hairsplitting in something you quoted, and now your hairsplitting again. I didn't wish to include myself in that everyone, yes, grammatically i should have said everyone else. But everyone on the roads nowadays has road rage and everyone at school doesn't like me and everyone hates my new haircut, and after all that stress i don't have time to be grammatically correct. (yes, that sentence is trying to make a point)

Huntress was not making fluff when i was complaining. She was avoiding a question and giving total bullcrap answers. When i said "nonsense" it's not the sort of nonsense that fills up space it's the sort of nonsense like "i can't make As mummy because i have dyslexia. The doctor's wrong. He lies. About the whole pregnancy thing too"

[popsofctown]

Iirc, you were complaining that i mentioned fluff but didn't directly reference you. So i was saying "no, it's not like your the only one who has mentioned fluff so i should definitely mention you if i mention fluff. Everyone has been complaining about fluff".

If you misread everything i say that badly, it's no wonder you think i'm scum.

The whole thing with nonsense is just you being a stupid semantics hairsplitter. Next time i'll say bullcrap instead of nonsense, so it's very uber clear to you.

[popsofctown]

Huntress has zero posts on this page and i'm eager to hear from her. She's my main suspect, and "oh, scumhunt other people while you wait" just rewards lurking. I'm not gonna lie, i am seeing lots of town right now. I think Rishi is town due to circumstantial evidence on him not taking such a primed mislynch wagon. BC seems legit. Spyrex is middling.

Oh crap, the other lurker. Moriarty. She bugs me a lot.

[popsofctown]

That's correct Moriarty, i've given her town points for that. But everything has it's own weight, and her other actions have brought her to sub-vote-level suspiciousness.

Rishi went so far as to give reasons not to vote me, Huntress hasn't fought the wagon at all

[popsofctown]

No. "the guy who was just talking about lurker hunting" was me. Spyrex doesn't lurker hunt. He tunnels players who are active enough for him to make up crap based on bizzare interpretations of everything that person says.

Before anyone asks me for reasons on Moriarty ( i didn't have time to finish the post) sometimes she seems kind of me-tooish and contrived.

[popsofctown]

Then again, why would scum place a vote for SpyreX instead of the obvious lynch target, especially when he's made this many transgressions? Hmm.

Are you trying to imply something?

Huntress was not making fluff when i was complaining. She was avoiding a question and giving total bullcrap answers.

Is this the first time you are suspicious of Huntress? What post made her your #1 suspect?

Correct, it's the first time i got suspicious of her. The #1 thing that makes me suspicious of her, however, was the way she jumped really hard on Spyrex early today, seeming really opportunistic without a strong enough prior foundation.. See how getting things going with a vote and a notion can be good guys? Gosh, you'll never get it then.

Huntress has zero posts on this page and i'm eager to hear from her.

Why single her out when other people are not posting on this page (when she actually did post to say she was re-reading).

There ended up being too many posts in between mine and CF riot to get that clearly. I wasn't singling her out, i was comparing my lack of action to my lack of information, because CFR had said: "Pops, for as many posts as you have on this page, you sure aren't finding scum in any of them. Is Huntress your only suspect?"

Before anyone asks me for reasons on Moriarty ( i didn't have time to finish the post) sometimes she seems kind of me-tooish and contrived.

Do you say contrived because she is me-tooish?

Really it's a gut thing. Me-too and contrived are separate things, i'm sure there's a relationship between the two, but i think her reasons for seeming contrived are independent of the me-tooing.

[popsofctown]

it should be huntress's evening by now, still no post.. uggs

[popsofctown]

cfriot are playing guess who? with mafia flavor. it's pretty cool, i love guess who. except the part where it's all going off an incorrect premise, that's pretty suck.

Normally i try to scumhunt when i need to show the town they're wrong, but Huntress won't show up here, which is censoring me off. I could start getting omgussy and going after people for being here, but taht gooes against my mafia values, rewarding lurking and attacking people i don't really see as scum. Well, I mean, lots of people on the wagon are glowing maybes, but none of them makes me like "woah, scum".

[popsofctown]

bionicchop2-
Seems like obvtown to me and everyone. Actually is hunting for scum, and actually checked my meta to read me, which fewer scum would do than town. He'll probably be calling you idiots tomorrow. On my behalf. I hope.
Huntress
Refused to random vote D1, and didn't really funnel the resulting discussion in a positive direction. Then loosely bandwagons spyrex today.
iamausername- Doesn't post much. Seems to judge more than search scum, which can be slightly suspicios.
Jahudo- Aggressively thinks i'm scum. His questions today appear to show a genuine desire to determine my alignment, i'd have him marked as town even though he's very wrong today.
CF Riot replaces Korts D1 - Is also on my bandwagon, but i'm not sure he's not me-tooing. Seems to want to throw boulders first and ask questions later more than the others.
Moriarty147 replaces My Milked Eek D1- Really really seems fishy, but not much content coming from her. Really me tooey stuff, and seems to arrive at "therefore obvscum" before actually listing enough reasons to get there.

Trumpet of Doom replaces OhGodMyLife D2
Almost no read
popsofctown
Rishi
His not voting wrongly today counts for him. But he only lists one reason not to vote me, some AtE, and doesn't address anything else against me. It seems like he's policy not-voting rather than policy voting, I actually suspect he has too much information. Either that, or he's decided the lynch will actually go through today and cares more about his vote status than whether or not we hit scum or town today. The discontinuity between his voting behavior and speaking behavior is a bit of an issue, so yeah big maybe.
SpyreX - it's really hard to tell this guy. He's very abrasive, and misreads almost every thing i say. Misreading is a vague scumtell... probably scum, but at the same time he does a very good job of having the appearance of scum hunting, at least, better than moriarty

[popsofctown]

OH MY GOSH IDIOTS. Do your silly pairs AFTER i flip.

[popsofctown]

ok

Voting next person to make a paring guess based off me being scum. FoSes after that

[popsofctown]

i put all i have about her in my player by player analyses. She won't post today.

[popsofctown]

Vote: Spyrex

Guys, please, i'm seriously not town. Ask me anything you want, tell me what you want me to do to show you. I'll demonstrate anyway i can.

[popsofctown]

Wow. EBWOP: "seriously not scum". I was thinking am town, and not scum. I can't say i wouldn't call that a freudian slip if i wasn't in someone else's shoes though... it's not.

Hm... what can failpops do to make his flip even more surprising to everyone...

[popsofctown]

it's 10:55 my time. I woke up at six this morning. Freudian slips dont actually follow that format anyway. People tend to replace the false alignment word with their actual alignment word. Here, i've accidentally replaced a word that's not my alignment with my alignment, because i'm tired, and forgot the sentence had a negation in it.

Freudian slips tend to follow the format more like "Of course i'm going to claim scum, why are you asking people if they're scum point blank? oops..."

[popsofctown]

............ Vi, can i write a death scene, so i can feel i did

something

positive in this game? If we lose i'm gonna feel kind of bad...

Sorry, the death scene I have in mind is much cooler. ~Vi

[popsofctown]

You would cry too, if it happened to you.....

For some reason that song seems relevant.

[popsofctown]

I claim Alexander.

"I went to sleep with gum in my mouth and now there's gum in my hair and when I got out of bed this morning I tripped on the skateboard and by mistake I dropped my sweater in the sink while the water was running and I could tell it was going to be a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day."
-

Alexander and the terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day.

My RL name is Alexander, i don't drop that often.

[popsofctown]

OH MY GOSH IDIOTS. Do your silly pairs AFTER i flip.

But if you flipped town, they'd have no reason to be pairing people with you. Are you claiming scum, pops?

That's post 650. Get it right!

Sincere answer, i was going to type out "since that means you won't be doing those pairs at all", but amidst concern i was repeating that i'm town too much in this thread, i decided to leave that assumed.

I'm going to read Rishi in isolation before i come back and vote, but i've already expressed suspicion of him and would definitely pick him in a me-or-him situation.

[popsofctown]

unvote, vote Rishi

In isolation, he looks quite a bit like he's trying to play ref, i never go for that.

[popsofctown]

HE's over Huntress because he's a alternative lynch i can actually get to happen. Huntress is still worse. I'm not really sure about Spyrex. That very last vote was joke/policy/ugh vote because i said i was voting the next person to speculate on pairs based of me being scum. Which is a false premise and waste of time.

[popsofctown]

Moriarty's waffling makes me think rishi is scum.


I'd love for you to show how i fulfill a town win condition by selecting myself for a lynch instead of Rishi. Deadline is in four days.

I didn't read all of Rishi in 10 minutes, i read enough. I already adressed my concerns about Rishi when i i discussed every player about a page ago, Rishi had one of the longest sections.

[popsofctown]

I'm vanilla

[popsofctown]

Hey, folks, got my prod. I don't have a lot to say about the case against me. IAUN's main point is that I don't take a strong stance on Day 1. This is pretty typical of my Day 1 play in just about every game that I play. In fact, it's a bit of a null-tell for me. I'm usually more aggressive on Day 2 and beyond, but haven't had a lot of time to play so far.

Rishi is essentially made of "Busy. Will post later. I promise." which to me has a feel of classical lurkscum tactics.

Okay. This drives me absolutely bonkers. Do you see me posting a lot in other games? What gives you the impression that I am intentionally avoiding posting rather than actually busy? And as I've pointed out before, you're not particularly active either, and yet you keep bringing up this argument.

Moriarty's waffling makes me think rishi is scum.

Huh? In any case, pops goes from pretty strongly believing that I'm town, to neutral, to scum in the span of a couple pages. In fact, in that period where he was being nice to me, I was suspecting him of buddying. I know that I believed that pops was town before, but he seems to be on tilt.

Plus, the "claiming Alexander" business doesn't help him.

I would throw a vote on Trumpet of Doom or Huntress if I thought it would do any good at this point. My main point is that I can't get a read on them, which is why I've been waiting for them to post.

Vote: popsofctown

Rishi's vote really seems like OMGUS to me. While i could understand him making an argument that i'm waffling on him, i dont see how it brings him all the way from thinking i'm town to thinking i'm scum.

I want you guys to really check out the bold here because inconsistency can be a great scumtell. Rishi's reasoning for thinking I'm town all today has been "I see AtE as a towntell and he uses AtE a lot". A very flimsy basis for a town read if you ask me. But he ought to at least be consistent. After coming out of my pessimistic mood, it seems pretty clear to me that the Alexander claim was a pretty large AtE: but now he's citing it as a scumtell. If there's anyone in this thread making questionably fast shifts in position, it's Rishi.

[popsofctown]

MOD: Request that the deadline is lifted to give Huntress and Rhinox a chance to see The Princess Bride? Thx.

What with all the notPosting going on, they could probably watch it now and not miss much action here. ~Vi

In other news, as we're getting closer to a lynch, those of you with votes not on one of the main wagons are really not helping us avoid a No Lynch. Just saying.

In retrospect, this looks bad. This was the only content in one of his posts, urging readers to go for either badwagon, without really caring which. What's worse is there's no other content in the post.

[popsofctown]

Huntress, I'll love you again if you vote Rishiscum!!!!

I don't see why moriarty and CF Riot expect me to lie about my vote on Rishi. I do think he's more likely scum than town, but either way it's a textbook move for me to vote him. I'm not going to kill myself, i know i'm town.. it's not that hard to follow.


Does anyone, anyone at all think it's funny how several people (several is two or more spyrex. And for spyrex i will name the minimum two- rishi and moriarty) have latched onto my wagon like horseshoe magnets? That's usually a

bad

sign, a hint that something is wrong. Pay attention to the dewdrops the easterly wind brings from the mountains people!


I read the rest of Rishi's posts, which i didnt read in ten minutes. I feel i owe it to you guys. I quoted pretty much everything else that really jumped out at me.

[popsofctown]

Rishi's vote really seems like OMGUS to me. While i could understand him making an argument that i'm waffling on him, i dont see how it brings him all the way from thinking i'm town to thinking i'm scum.

Contrary to popular belief, not every time you vote for someone who is voting you is it OMGUS. Of the people likely to get lynched (pretty much you and me), you're most likely to be scum to me. Besides, it has been at least a couple pages since I last posted. A couple pages where you were on tilt.

This man is made of straw. It has no brain, it needs to see the wizard of oz.

I gave reasons i thought your vote change was OMGUS, don't say "contrary to popular to belief not every voteback is OMGUS", because i don't believe that either.

I want you guys to really check out the bold here because inconsistency can be a great scumtell. Rishi's reasoning for thinking I'm town all today has been "I see AtE as a towntell and he uses AtE a lot". A very flimsy basis for a town read if you ask me. But he ought to at least be consistent. After coming out of my pessimistic mood, it seems pretty clear to me that the Alexander claim was a pretty large AtE: but now he's citing it as a scumtell. If there's anyone in this thread making questionably fast shifts in position, it's Rishi.

The "claiming Alexander" business didn't feel like an appeal to emotion. It felt like you were being evasive. And it seems to you now that claiming Alexander was an appeal to emotion? Shouldn't that have occurred to you when you were making the post? If you weren't sure what it was, how do you expect me to figure it out?

I realize afterwards it was AtE. At the moment i really really felt like doing it, but i wouldn't do it over.

In retrospect, this looks bad. This was the only content in one of his posts, urging readers to go for either badwagon, without really caring which. What's worse is there's no other content in the post.

Wow. This is weak. How many of your

early posts

can we pick apart for having no content? You seem like the last person to criticize someone for not having content. And you're criticizing me for not telling people what bandwagon to jump on? All I was saying is those with singleton votes were being counterproductive. In like half my games in the face of a deadline, I can probably point to someone (and not necessarily me) saying something similar. I saw that you entered the newbie queue as an IC. You might want to rethink that decision.

Underlining mine. You made that post in deadline zone. And it's not really a lack of content that bothered me, but rather that you posted just to say go for either wagon. It's admittedly weak really, townies do that, just in retrospect both wagons were scum.

Um, why should i rethink being an IC? AFAIK, the qualifications don't have to do with player skill. I don't replace out of games. I know what the rules are, and know most standard modding procedures. I don't see why i'm not fit. Go throw Glork in a cloning vat if you want extremepros to be ICing, it's my understanding that they are short on warm bodies.

Ah, my one saving grace about Rishi is that he didn't wagon Pops when he could have but now he is. On the reverse, Pops is voting Rishi and admitting it's to save himself, so it puts it back at neutral. I think Pops has been scummier.

We're a day from deadline. There's no other viable wagon. What would you expect me to do?

The difference between me and Rishi is that I admit when i'm me-or-himming and he saves it for later.

Rishi needs to cite and explain this part too. If he's talking about something that's AtE, then it looks like a dramatic change of opinion, and besides I don't see where he originally suspected pops of buddying. Was this day 1 or 2?

Buddying and Appeal to Emotion are not the same thing (what is it with people throwing around the "AtE" phrase suddenly as if it applies to everything?). I didn't accuse pops of buddying in the thread before. I wanted to see if he would keep doing it. He did it up until the point where I stopped posting and then started agreeing with other people. He even says in this post below yours that he'll like Huntress again if she votes for me. By the way, his reason for thinking I was town before? Because I thought he was town. If you look at pops' posts from around that time, I think it's pretty obvious.

Hey, i didn't say i'd like Huntress again, i said i'd love her again. Get it right. I'm turned on by cougars with meercat fur on the corners of their mouths.

It was struck through. I wouldn't actually change my opinion of someones alignment in exchange for their vote. It could come as a consequence, but not as a trade.

[popsofctown]

This man is made of straw. It has no brain, it needs to see the wizard of oz.

I gave reasons i thought your vote change was OMGUS, don't say "contrary to popular to belief not every voteback is OMGUS", because i don't believe that either.

Does that mean you’re strawmanning me? Because that’d make you the scum, eh?

So an OMGUS vote means that you think I am specifically voting for you because you’re voting for me. I don’t really see what your argument was. Could you reiterate it for me?

Your saying "Contrary to popular belief, not all votebacks are OMGUS" was a total strawmanning of me. Strawmanning my argument down to "Rishi votebacked, therefore OMGUS". I was accusing you of strawmanning, not myself.

Underlining mine. You made that post in deadline zone. And it's not really a lack of content that bothered me, but rather that you posted just to say go for either wagon. It's admittedly weak really, townies do that, just in retrospect both wagons were scum.

Both wagons were town. You have done this many, many times in this game. What is it that is making you subconsciously flip “town” and “scum” in your mind? Is it that you’re scum and so you are having trouble adjusting your brain? Also, I didn’t say that *I* could go for either wagon, just that people needed to get on a wagon.

Not gonna lie here, before this game, i believed that scum crossed words like that, not town. But i guess both can.

And you think your early posts were the only ones without content? The post you quoted from me was 415. Let’s look at your posts in reference to the Princess Bride discussion.

*rolls stone in front of cave out of the way*

You just now saw Princess Bride for the first time! Oh my gosh LOL!

*rolls stone back*

Inconceivable

wow, he does have high activity standards.

unless princess bride discussion is counting for us

Great content there.

Whatever. Content per day wasn't really the main point of that original argument anyway.

Hey, i didn't say i'd like Huntress again, i said i'd love her again. Get it right. I'm turned on by cougars with meercat fur on the corners of their mouths.

It was struck through. I wouldn't actually change my opinion of someones alignment in exchange for their vote. It could come as a consequence, but not as a trade.

The comment was struck, but you are not allowed to edit your posts. So if you were intending to strike that comment, why didn’t you just delete it? You obviously intended us to see it.

I did intend for you to see it, but the strikethrough denotes sarcasm, lack of sincerity, etc. I didn't actually mean that.
[quote="Rishi]
And you are trading suspicion for votes, whether you realize it or not. Remember, you're the one who specifically said I wasn't suspicious after I refused to vote for you.[/quote]
And I'm the one who voted you before you changed your mind on it.

[popsofctown]

ffffff

[popsofctown]

Do I get to count this as a win?

TMI hiccup was kind of very TMI

[popsofctown]

Trumpet of Doom, there's a lot of adverse factors affecting the accuracy and significance of win/loss records. I think the smarter players make subjective judgements instead. If you replace into games, sometimes you start from a disadvantage anyway, that's not fair.

[popsofctown]

pops speaks truth.

If i had a dollar for every time Vi said that, i think i'd have one dollar.