Newbie 694 (over)

[GIEFF]

Are you trying to argue that because Xtoxm was town, he can't make mistakes?

You slipped up again. You pretty much just admitted to knowing that I am town, and seem to be admitting you know that CC is town.

If you were really town, for all you would know, both CC and I are mafia, and to use the argument "well Xtoxm was right about you two" would be very silly in that case.

[Amished]

Everyone can make mistakes, but so far I believe that xtoxm's beliefs were right. I didn't slip up at all, I firmly believe that you're town. If you're not, you deserve to win for fooling everybody. I'm relatively certain that CC is town, but I want to hear more out of him.

You're right, if I was mafia, it'd be completely stupid to admit that I "know" (quotations in bold if I could) who was who. I just have roles that I'm pretty damn sure that I know is occupied by who, which is why I'm slmost certain sure you're not scum, same as with xtoxm.

[hambargarz]

I think we are at lylo today so my complete thoughts on this day are:
GIEFF is pretty low on the scum list
CC could be lying (NKing MR to help his case) but I'm willing to risk believing him given that cop claiming first is generally quite risky for scum.

So if CC and GIEFF are indeed scum, they played quite well and deserve to win.

So from where I'm standing, that leaves just Amished and CR/Fuzzy as the scum pair.

which is why I'm slmost certain sure you're not scum, same as with xtoxm.

Somewhat of a scumtell in my opinion. Scum tend to be more certain of scummy-ness and townie-ness as they obviously have all the information.
A townie wouldn't put so much certainty on his convictions like that. Either you are a master genius at reading people or you are scum that already knows.

You also said you were so sure xtoxm wasn't scum before he was lynched. Why then didn't you mention anything? You DID mention that you were getting town reads from him, but your posting in no way reflected the level of certainty you are expressing now.

CC's report will reveal alot, so I'm waiting on him

[GIEFF]

CC hasn't posted in this game in 10 days (although almost half of that was night phase). He is active elsewhere on the site. I'd think a legitimate cop would be more eager to inform us of his results.

[CarnCarn]

CC hasn't posted in this game in 10 days (although almost half of that was night phase). He is active elsewhere on the site. I'd think a legitimate cop would be more eager to inform us of his results.

yo, I'll get to this later tonight. My activity has pretty much died site-wide.

[fuzzylightning]

Alright, some of these posts are way too long. I am working on reading the rest of the game and hope to have a post up by Wednesday at the latest. Sorry its taking so long, but I have limited computer use due to mine crashing, and school comes before mafia.

[hambargarz]

I would also wonder why CC posted, yet did not state his result, it takes a very small amount of time to do that and would help our discussion alot.

By saying something like "I'll get back to this" implies his post will take a while to compile. It takes no time to just state your night result and more time to fabricate one.
hmmm, fishy.

[fuzzylightning]

to be completely honest, I don't really think it takes all that much time to fabricate or state a result, as the cop you just send in a name and get a result back, really easy to do. he probably has more to say regarding everything, and is going to make one big post rather than many small ones

[GIEFF]

HOS: CarnCarn

[CarnCarn]

Alright well, just got out of lab and things have been really hectic last week or 2. Don't expect any change to that soon.

So, everyone wants a result. Me, too. I didn't get one. I investigated fuzzylightning and got no result. I simply got a note back saying that I had no result.

In any case, this is possible LyLo (not sure if a mislynch here results in automatic endgaming or not). I know there must be a doc in this game because there is no way for me to not get a result without a Mafia RB being in the game. And since there is a Mafia RB in the game, there must also be a doc.

I'm thinking massclaim, and then we'll have two confirmed innocents (well, technically only confirmed from my viewpoint, I guess; it really depends on how willing rest of town is to believe that I am cop). Your thoughts? This is probably LyLo, so holding back the info now isn't helping the town anymore. There are a few things for the town to think about here if a doc claims/doesn't claim:
- If a doc claims, either I and the doc are both innocent, or both lying scum. Analyze whether you think I and whoever the doc is are a likely scum pairing and come to a conclusion about whether we're both scum or both innocent.
- If a doc doesn't claim, then I'm lying scum (there can't be only a cop and a Mafia RB). Lynch me.
- A doc claims, but I'm lying about being RB'd. Well, this is the toughest situation and honestly there is nothing more that I could do to prove anything. I know, of course, that this scenario is wrong, but anyone who isn't me won't be able to rule it out as a possibility.

As for the dialogue between GIEFF and Amished on the last page, I'm not sure at all how GIEFF came to the conclusion that Amished "knows" anything about GIEFF from the post he quoted. He did say "Xtoxm is town" before Xtoxm was lynched, which is strange. And:

magicrabbit, I wish you hadn't changed your vote. I'd like to think I would have voted for CR, but I probably still would have ended up voting Xtoxm. I would have appreciated the extra day to think about it as I asked for, though.

This is also a bit strange. Why would you like to think you would have voted CR?

As for lynching Xtoxm, I was going to post this before he got lynched, but the thread was locked very quickly after the hammer:
I fully believed that Xtoxm was the best lynch at the time yesterday, because his fishing to lynch people pre-claim was just absurd coming from town. I asked him repeatedly to explain what protown motivation there would be for it and he NEVER explained. He was the correct lynch on a percentage play because I consider that a pretty huge scum-tell.

Anyway, back to the present.

I would also wonder why CC posted, yet did not state his result, it takes a very small amount of time to do that and would help our discussion alot.

I don't know if posting "No result" would really have the same effect and I honestly had a lot more to say about it than time would permit.

[hambargarz]

Going back to my thoughts on Amished and CR as a logical conclusion for being a scum pair. I've been looking back at their actions between each other. Amished could have easily have joined the wagons on either Xtoxm and CC on the previous day, he instead at the last minute attacked CR and almost got him lynched. It's either extreme bussing or one or both of them is town.

This would mean one or both of my 2 lesser suspected players are likely to be scum. I'm willing to believe CC for the time being which means my scum pair at the moment is GIEFF and CR. I agree a mass claim will be good, and may help me decide the validity of CC's claims.

Looking back it makes sense, We have limited attacks between the two, The Amished initiated wagon on CR with 2 confirmed townies on it, was initially opposed by GIEFF. In fact, I think GIEFF has attacked everyone BUT CR.

I don't know if posting "No result" would really have the same effect and I honestly had a lot more to say about it than time would permit.

Dunno, If I were a claimed cop and got no result, I would have blurted it out first post, but thats just me I guess.

HOS: CarnCarn

What's the HOS for?

[GIEFF]

Thanks, CC. I agree that the doctor should claim ASAP.

This is also a bit strange. Why would you like to think you would have voted CR?

Becuase Xtoxm is 100% townie at this point, and CR (now fuzzy) isn't; therefore, I should have chosen CR. I know this sort of thinking does us no good; I was just a bit upset that I didn't have the chance to think it over that I had asked for. I agree that Xtoxm looked extremely scummy for the majority of the game.

As for the dialogue between GIEFF and Amished on the last page, I'm not sure at all how GIEFF came to the conclusion that Amished "knows" anything about GIEFF from the post he quoted. He did say "Xtoxm is town" before Xtoxm was lynched, which is strange. And:

My first slight clue came from GIEFF. All along he's seemed like the most pro-town to me, and apparently to many other people. (Obviously only counting d1, as d2 would have no bearing on the NK). I felt that an experienced player would take away the most townie, leaving many slightly suspicious players for d2 to fight out. I've read this in a couple other theory threads around, and it's the general consensus among almost all the experienced and well known players out there. This led me to two conclusions: the mafia are probably less experienced (+1 good point to the IC's) and were looking to target a power role, which is probably better to take out than a townie in their opinion. Heck, if they got a power role, they'd be much better off, though it's a risk if they didn't (which they didn't).

Why didn't you consider the possibility that I wasn't killed because I am scum? And why did you assume the scum would assume I am NOT a power role? (You implied that not voting for me = targeting a power role).

I look like town. Scum likes to kill those who look like town. I was not targeted by scum. Assuming it was optimal play for scum to kill me (I don't necessarily agree, but Amished does), there are two possible explanations.

1. I lived because the scum played sub-optimally
2. I lived because I cannot die (i.e. I am scum)

Amished immediately focused on the first explanation, and gave town points to the IC's because he figured they would not play sub-optimally. The fact that he didn't even consider the second explanation makes me think he KNOWS it cannot be true.

Given the recent postings, I'm convinced now that if CC is lynched and flips town, Xtoxm is probably very likely to be scum. And if Xtoxm is lynched today and flips town, CC is very likely to be scum.

Does this logic still apply?

[GIEFF]

The Amished initiated wagon on CR with 2 confirmed townies on it, was initially opposed by GIEFF. In fact, I think GIEFF has attacked everyone BUT CR.

There are two factual errors in this quote.

FoS hambgargarz

for distorting the past.

Error #1:

The Amished initiated wagon

Wrong. Amished did not start the wagon. magicrabbit was the first to vote CR, and ostensibly for reasons that I brought up in post 480.

Error #2:

In fact, I think GIEFF has attacked everyone BUT CR.

Wrong. post 480

Also, I was not so much against a CR lynch as surprised at how quickly it grew, and suspicious of those who changed their votes in a way that struck me as opportunistic. magicrabbit and Amished hadn't expressed much suspicion at all for CR, and for both of them to suddenly switch to vote for him struck me as odd.

HOS: CarnCarn

What's the HOS for?

CC said he would post last night, and he didn't. Consider it retracted now, although I am somewhat less sure of the legitimacy of his cop claim.






So I guess the doc is either fuzzy or Amished?

[CarnCarn]

I look like town. Scum likes to kill those who look like town. I was not targeted by scum. Assuming it was optimal play for scum to kill me (I don't necessarily agree, but Amished does), there are two possible explanations.

Speculating about why you were NOT killed will likely drive us in loops. You're either scum yourself or you're town and not killed for a bunch of other reasons.

Does this logic still apply?

I didn't write what you're referring to. I think it was ham, but not sure.

Going back to my thoughts on Amished and CR as a logical conclusion for being a scum pair. I've been looking back at their actions between each other. Amished could have easily have joined the wagons on either Xtoxm and CC on the previous day, he instead at the last minute attacked CR and almost got him lynched. It's either extreme bussing or one or both of them is town.

This would mean one or both of my 2 lesser suspected players are likely to be scum. I'm willing to believe CC for the time being which means my scum pair at the moment is GIEFF and CR. I agree a mass claim will be good, and may help me decide the validity of CC's claims.

These paragraphs don't follow logically. Amished/fuzzylightning and GIEFF/fuzzylightning are both his scum pair at the moment, which is odd. Clarify, please.

So I guess the doc is either fuzzy or Amished?

I can under ruling yourself out, but what has ham said to rule out him being the doc?

[GIEFF]

Speculating about why you were NOT killed will likely drive us in loops. You're either scum yourself or you're town and not killed for a bunch of other reasons.

I agree, and I'm not asking us to speculate about that. You asked what made me think Amished knew I was town, and I showed you. He ignored a plausible explanation because it would mean I am scum, and I think he KNOWS that I am not scum.

So I guess the doc is either fuzzy or Amished?

I can under ruling yourself out, but what has ham said to rule out him being the doc?

Because he didn't claim doc after you asked for doc claims. Are you the doc, ham?

I didn't write what you're referring to. I think it was ham, but not sure.

Oops, my bad. You're right, it was ham, in Post 745. Let me try that again:

Given the recent exchange between the two, both of them being town is unlikely in my opinion. I would like to give the whole story of why I think this, but this would help the scum more than the town and I believe that discussion is getting a bit ahead of ourselves anyway.

Does this logic still apply, ham? Care to give "the whole story" now?

[Amished]

I am the doc. I don't know if this actually clears CC though, as he could've been a gambiting scum to either drive out the cop if there was one, or to know for sure that there was a doc. As there was no other cop claim, he knew that he could stick with no-result and it's legit no matter what from a doc's knowledge. Whether or not he is the cop still leaves me with a 50% chance of catching scum to the best of my knowledge, FL or Ham. (Say CC is scum, I'm doc, GIEFF town (I'll explain this later for you GIEFF, keep reading), FL and Ham left as the other scum. If CC is cop, GIEFF still town, I'm Doc, FL and Ham both scum.)

Personally I protected GIEFF. Not only has he been the most consistantly townie, but I also planted the seed of picking him off earlier, and didn't think people thought I was the doc after the end of day 2. I was hoping Fuzzy would post to see if he would claim doc, but I doubt he would've anyway. Also, I would've thought that it would've been an easy "you wanted to kill him a long time ago" argument against me today, and as it appeared I was still the most suspicious overall at the end of day 2 to everyone involved (except xtoxm, who would no longer be around).

I also take a lot of stock in the theory that most people would choose what's best for them. even now, there's 3 (4? Pretty sure CC thinks you're most townie too) people that think you're pro-town (not counting yourself, as obviously you do as well if you're town). That means in the case that CC thinks you're townie, that there's at least 2 *other* townies that feel you're most townie as well, and if you're town, there's 2 scum that are trying to appear right to the rest of the town and to yourself saying that you're townie. Either way, you're either able to be a lead in a shakespear play, or you're town. Either way, you deserve to win if you can fool that many people, or if you're able to convince everyone that you're town.

Ham has now looked very scummy today, trying to attack everybody, and relatively unsuccessfully by using bad cases. I would've hoped that FL could have caught up by now, as I didn't like the fact that he thought I was scum for only stating that I was attacking faulty logic. Even then I thought I explained why it was bad logic, and if he still thought it was "bad" he was piling on the most likely quicklynch candidate in his opinion and probably in my if I was looking at it from an outsiders view.

My decision is still out on CC, though FL has yet to assuage any suspicions I have about him being scum, and ham, while looking slightly scummy yesterday, is escalating that suspicion today.

[hambargarz]

Wrong. Amished did not start the wagon.

Oops, I guess you're technically right, I was going off memory, I had the impression Amished started it all. I didn't read back for that. But my point is Amished was on his wagon. I've just done a reread, and I can see that MR technically cast the first vote, but the first real points against CR were brought up by Amished accompanied by his own vote, MR's vote was just a "pressure vote" on CR to post, Amished had pretty much initiated the wagon.

Wrong. post 480

Is that the only "attack" on CR? I think it pales in comparison with you're cases on other players.

Also, I was not so much against a CR lynch as surprised at how quickly it grew, and suspicious of those who changed their votes in a way that struck me as opportunistic. magicrabbit and Amished hadn't expressed much suspicion at all for CR, and for both of them to suddenly switch to vote for him struck me as odd.

I agree it was odd, but the reasons were compelling, CR wasn't posting. As it turned out he was having access problems, so the lurking issue is muddied now.

There are two factual errors in this quote. FoS hambgargarz for distorting the past.

I don't see it as FoS material, anyone can do it, And it is easily checked and will be by the player in question. I was a bit lazy with my post I admit going off memory, I should have been more exact. I still believe my post on Amished stands.

Because of this and in addition to Xtoxm's endorsment of Amished, I'm inclined to believe Amished's claim in the absence of counter claim.


--------------------

Both the following quotes are referring to my post on Xtoxm vs CC, one or the other being scum

Does this logic still apply?

Does this logic still apply, ham? Care to give "the whole story" now?

I did explain the "whole story", see post 811

Basically the cop claim by CC kind of changed things a bit. The logic still applies to me, but it isn't as compelling given CC's cop claim.

[hambargarz]

Going back to my thoughts on Amished and CR as a logical conclusion for being a scum pair. I've been looking back at their actions between each other. Amished could have easily have joined the wagons on either Xtoxm and CC on the previous day, he instead at the last minute attacked CR and almost got him lynched. It's either extreme bussing or one or both of them is town.

This would mean one or both of my 2 lesser suspected players are likely to be scum. I'm willing to believe CC for the time being which means my scum pair at the moment is GIEFF and CR. I agree a mass claim will be good, and may help me decide the validity of CC's claims.

These paragraphs don't follow logically. Amished/fuzzylightning and GIEFF/fuzzylightning are both his scum pair at the moment, which is odd. Clarify, please.

In summary, I'm saying I initially suspected Amished/CR scum pair, but given Amished past behaviour has cast him in a slightly towny light, which has lead me to believe a GIEFF/CR pair (if CC's claim is to be believed)

[hambargarz]

Can I also add that GIEFF and CR have been the main instigators of the case against Xtoxm (A confirmed townie).

CR, Whilst absent most of the time, basically posted agreement with GIEFF and suspicion of Xtoxm throughout.

I would place my bet on a GIEFF/CR scumpair.
with CC/CR as a second possibility.
(CC/GIEFF is a possibility, but that would mean both scum have played diabolically well)

Since CR is a common element to both my scumpairs, I'm inclined to vote him. It's only that CR hasn't posted much so it's hard to get much of a read on him so I'm still not 100%.

GIEFF: What are your thoughts on CR, It seems your only points against him are that he didn't answer some of your questions about his behaviour from day 1. Is it safe to assume that CR is quite low on you're list of suspects?

[GIEFF]

Oops, I guess you're technically right, I was going off memory, I had the impression Amished started it all. I didn't read back for that. But my point is Amished was on his wagon. I've just done a reread, and I can see that MR technically cast the first vote, but the first real points against CR were brought up by Amished accompanied by his own vote, MR's vote was just a "pressure vote" on CR to post, Amished had pretty much initiated the wagon.

Wrong again. My long case against CR came just a few posts before MR's vote.

You didn't make mistakes like this before. You are obviously trying to twist the truth. I notice you only started attacking me once it was clear I am not the doc. Have you been suspicious of me before this lylo endgame where it's clear you are going to have to get a third townie lynched?

Is that the only "attack" on CR? I think it pales in comparison with you're cases on other players.

Wrong. Twisting the past again. My case against CR was a very long one, and had CR been active in the game, we would have gone back and forth for a while. Don't blame me for CR's inactivity. I think I've thrown a lot more accusations at CR than at CC.

You were caught in two mistruths, intentional or no. A townie would have dropped it, because a townie is going after the truth. You continue to try to hammer your points home.

Can I also add that GIEFF and CR have been the main instigators of the case against Xtoxm (A confirmed townie).

Once again, this looks like you purposefully trying to throw as much as you can at your GIEFF-CR theory, and hoping it stick. "Can you also add"? Xtoxm's play was extremely scummy, and just about everybody agreed.

GIEFF: What are your thoughts on CR, It seems your only points against him are that he didn't answer some of your questions about his behaviour from day 1. Is it safe to assume that CR is quite low on you're list of suspects?

It's not CR anymore. Saying my "only points" against CR was his behavior on day one is trying to twist the truth yet again. It may have been day 1 behavior, but that doesn't make it any less scummy. I believe my points against CR were a lot more substantive than anything you brought up; don't use words like "only" to make it look like I don't have a case. I came very close to lynching him yesterday.


As I believe CC's claim (and I think I believe Amished's for now, but I will read back), then yes, I'm fine with lynching your scumbuddy first. Although your willingness to do so makes me think that you are the roleblocker rather than him.


I'm a little bit off-put by Amished's surety that I am town, though. Only scum should be that sure. If you really are the doc and you really are that sure I am town, I think we're in very good shape. Amished, can you explain why you didn't consider the fact that maybe I wasn't NK'd because I am scum?

I'd like to hear from fuzzy, to see if he wants to CC doc, and to tell us if he's the roleblocker or just a goon.

[Amished]

Ham, it was a "wagon" on CR with me and a confirmed townie.

Ham, you were the only one on day one who kept their vote on dip/over/militant (also a confirmed townie). Should we hold this against you?

Because of this and in addition to Xtoxm's endorsment of Amished, I'm inclined to believe Amished's claim in the absence of counter claim.

Seems like buddying with a confirmed townie and somebody who can't reply on the subject..

[hambargarz]

Wrong again. My long case against CR came just a few posts before MR's vote.

I found post 840, would that be the one you're referring to? Seems a major point is CR's buddying up to you and not answering questions as I said before, would you say these points are still influencing you now?

I notice you only started attacking me once it was clear I am not the doc. Have you been suspicious of me before this lylo endgame where it's clear you are going to have to get a third townie lynched?

I've made it quite clear that I've been suspicous of you throughout, the only thing stopping me from acting is you're protown actions, (i've said this). Today, it's a matter of logical deduction, I've moved a few people lower in my list and it leaves you quite high.

You were caught in two mistruths, intentional or no. A townie would have dropped it, because a townie is going after the truth. You continue to try to hammer your points home.

Interesting way to put it. A bit defensive in my opinion, going straight for me being scum. If you believe me to be wrong you simply have to point it out. I'm referring to solid facts that are stored black and white in this same thread, so they can easily and accurately be checked. If you are correct you really have nothing to be worried about. This is the kind of reaction I was looking for. (and is consistent with my past poking of GIEFF)

Once again, this looks like you purposefully trying to throw as much as you can at your GIEFF-CR theory, and hoping it stick. "Can you also add"? Xtoxm's play was extremely scummy, and just about everybody agreed.

Ye alot of people suspected Xtoxm, some more than others. I was reluctant to believe he was scum but one can never be sure.

It's not CR anymore. Saying my "only points" against CR was his behavior on day one is trying to twist the truth yet again. It may have been day 1 behavior, but that doesn't make it any less scummy. I believe my points against CR were a lot more substantive than anything you brought up; don't use words like "only" to make it look like I don't have a case. I came very close to lynching him yesterday.

It was a simple question really, I don't really know the answer, I use that language to explain my assumptions and where they are coming from so you know what I'm thinking of at the moment, I would like you to correct me if I'm wrong.

From the answer it appears you are going either way. You are saying you have made a substantial case against him and were close to lynching him yesterday.

As I believe CC's claim (and I think I believe Amished's for now, but I will read back), then yes, I'm fine with lynching your scumbuddy first. Although your willingness to do so makes me think that you are the roleblocker rather than him.

From the wording of this post, I feel you trust CC's claim more than Amished. If this is true, what is the difference between the two claims that makes you less sure about the other?

[hambargarz]

Seems like buddying with a confirmed townie and somebody who can't reply on the subject..

Dunno what benefit can be had from buddying with a dead townie, It's not like he can "lower he suspicion of me" or anything. I'm stating it to the town as a reason that weights my judgement. Dead townies opinions on people are valid, because their motivations are proven to be pro-town. Sure they can still be wrong, but they are still useful (compared to "alive" player's opinions, whose motivations are questionable)

[GIEFF]

You have made so many distortions of the past and so many mistruths in your last few posts that I'm convinced it was intentional, which makes you scum, ham.


Yes, the points I brought up against CR still make me suspicious of FL.

Interesting way to put it. A bit defensive in my opinion, going straight for me being scum. If you believe me to be wrong you simply have to point it out. I'm referring to solid facts that are stored black and white in this same thread, so they can easily and accurately be checked. If you are correct you really have nothing to be worried about. This is the kind of reaction I was looking for. (and is consistent with my past poking of GIEFF)

So you're claiming you lied on purpose to see how I would react? When you reveal yourself to be scum, of course I'm going to attack you for it. You can't retroactively claim that your lies were just meant to test me. You willfully distorted the past multiple times (even about things you admit are "black and white" and easily verifiable), and when shown that you were wrong, you haven't backed down.


Amished, do you know who your character protected night 1? And why did you protect me last night instead of CC? I want nobody but Amished to answer these questions, please.


Here are the 4 scenarios of PR legitimacy FMPOV, assuming FL does not CC a power-role.

1. CC is legit cop, Amished is legit doc. ham and FL are scum.
   
2. CC is legit cop, Amished is not the real doc. Amished and ham/FL are scum.
   
3. CC is fake cop, Amished is real doc. CC and ham/FL are scum.
   
4. Both PR's are fake. CC and Amished are scum.

• 2 is not possible. If CC is legit cop and Amished is not the real doc, then there is no roleblocker, but a legit cop wouldn't falsely claim to be role-blocked, so we can rule it out.
  
  
• 3 is possible. It would mean there is no roleblocker, but it would also mean that CC would have had to guess which PR was actually in the game. If he guessed wrong, it would have been disastrous for the mafia when he got CC'd, so I don't think 3 is likely.
  
  
• 4 is possible. It would mean there is a roleblocker, and CC fake-claimed because with two VT's dead, the odds go up that we are in the no-PR setup rather than the 2-PR setup. When there was no cop CC, this revealed to the scum that we are indeed in the no-PR setup, making the doc-claim safe, and making Amished CC's scumbuddy. I don't think this is likely.
  
  
• 1 is the most likely to me. It means ham and FL are scum, and with ham's recent very-scummy distortions in an attempt to implicate me, I am quite confident that this is what we are dealing with.

In any case, I am about 90% sure that CC and Amished are on the same team, and also pretty sure that that team is the town.



Pending FL's response, I am willing to vote either ham or FL, but I would prefer ham, as I believe he is more likely to be the roleblocker, and as his distortions are so obviously scummy that I'm confident he'll flip scum even if #1 isn't really the case.

I would like to hear your thoughts, CC, and would also like Amished to answer my question in this post, and my question about why he did not consider the possibility that I wasn't NK'd because I am scum.

[hambargarz]

You have made so many distortions of the past and so many mistruths in your last few posts that I'm convinced it was intentional, which makes you scum, ham.

Please state my "many mistruths", I believe you're distorting there. I can only think of one area where I was not accurate. I admited I was going off memory, I admit I missed your previous post about CR which is why I had thought Amished post was the first. Why is that scummy?, wouldn't a scum player be quite careful what he was saying? Why would a scum player post a lie that could be so easily be verified as false?

So you're claiming you lied on purpose to see how I would react? When you reveal yourself to be scum, of course I'm going to attack you for it. You can't retroactively claim that your lies were just meant to test me. You willfully distorted the past multiple times (even about things you admit are "black and white" and easily verifiable), and when shown that you were wrong, you haven't backed down.

No i'm not claiming I lied on purpose, I don't see how one could have interpreted it that way. What I am saying is that my jabs on you are met with a heavy defensive reaction as opposed to my jabs on other players. The content of the jabs or their validity wasn't part of the subject.

1 is the most likely to me. It means ham and FL are scum, and with ham's recent very-scummy distortions in an attempt to implicate me, I am quite confident that this is what we are dealing with.

I agree the that point 1 is the more likely scenario. Which a big reason for my recent suspicions of GIEFF. I've stated this from the beginning of this day.

I'm quite close to voting someone (which I'm quite sure will not result in a double scum hammer), but am holding off till FL and CC say something.

GIEFF: The fact that you were not NK'd, would you say the scum players slipped up? I think you would be a good target seeing as everyone thinks you are pro-town. (with the possible exception of MR)