[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Crazy]

I would like to run this set-up again, originally run by Pooky

Masons and Mafia

4 Mafia
4 Masons
4 Townies

Nightless
At any point during the day, a member of the Mafia can send in a target for a kill. If the target is a mason, the mason dies. If the target is a townie, the mafia attacker dies.

Second

. I was actually thinking about nominating that myself.

[Crazy]

Nominate: Texas Justice (I know)

If you know, then why are you nominating it? o_0

[Crazy]

Newbie with enabler

2 Mafia

1 Doc
1 Cop
1 Cop Enabler
2 Townies

Have the cop claim Day 1, massclaim Day 2, and it would be

very

difficult for the scum to ever win.

[Crazy]

Well, the town's chances of lynching scum Day 1 is 1/3.
The chance of lynching scum Day 2 is 2/5.

So even if when it all balances out it's in the town's favor for random lynching, it never is actually practical to do so.

As well, I've noticed that the setup gives scum a lot of the control over the vote.

Day 1 = 7 to lynch (only 8 town)
Day 2 = 6 to lynch (only 6 town)

That should help the scum in the long run.

[Crazy]

What is night-talk in a Nightless game?

[Crazy]

Err? I thought C9 was deemed to favor the mafia too much?

[Crazy]

What's the point of the Secret Word thing? It discourages activity, it doesn't reward skill, and if the town discover what the word is, then the setup is broken.

[Crazy]

Yeah, I'll agree that it's tough on the scum. But considering that the original C9 is favored to scum, I think the "C9 version" of this is balanced towards scum.

What if you made the cop confirmed to be in the setup and the doc 50/50?


2 mafia

1 1-shot cop
1 1-shot doc or townie
3 townies

[Crazy]

What if you gave scum a one shot roleblocker? That would eliminate cop claiming day one.

"One-Shot Pie"

[Crazy]

Wasn't Bird 7P balanced already? Do we need to weaken the town by making it one-shot?

[Crazy]

Cowardly Mafia

2 Bulletproof Mafiosi
1 Compulsive Vigilante
9 Townies
Daystart

Whilst the Vigilante is alive, the Mafia can't kill but can roleblock (the ability is shared like a regular nightkill). When the Vigilante dies they can kill again but can't block (not that they'd want to). In other words the Vig functions as a public Cop of sorts whilst alive (but people can be 'framed' by the blocking) and the game is a regular 2v10 once the Vig dies. Not sure if this situation is normal though.

At first I didn't see the bulletproof and was going to go on a rant about how broken this was.

I like this setup; however, I think this will happen day 1.

Vig claims
1)if not-counterclaimed, then have him be alive as a confirmed townie the whole game and never lynch him. Then it becomes a game of 10:2 nightless with a confirmed townie.
2)if counterclaimed, lynch both people and the game becomes a 1:9 or a 1:7 game.

Can this be prevented?

What if the scum had the abilities to kill and roleblock from the start?

[Crazy]

Non-setup-editing edit: If the Mafia can kill from the start, should the Vig be Compulsive or just a regular Vig? The aim with making the Vig Compulsive was that there would always be a nightkill (except under certain conditions), but I think that 2 nightkills on most nights would be unbalanced in the Mafia's favour.

I think it's pretty balanced that way... the vig kills are actually a pro-town thing, considering that the vig will be trying to target people that are actually scummy.

[Crazy]

Murder Suicide Mafia

2 Mafia Goons
2 Mafia Traitors
1 Cop
7 Townies

Traitors lose if both goons are lynched.
Traitors know their scumgroup, but the goons don't know the traitors.

Does the Cop get guilty on just Goons or both Goons/Traitors?

[Crazy]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Vengeful - Jester+Lyncher:

1 Jester
1 Lyncher with Jester target
3 Townies with vengeful kill upon lynch

Selfvoting not allowed.[/quote]
Does the town win if the Jester is vigged?

Who wins in an endgame of Lyncher + Jester?

[Crazy]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]yes.
There is never a lyncher/jester endgame[/quote]
Townie is lynched.
->Townie is vigged.
--> Townie is lynched.

Does the townie get another vig kill and wins if he hits the jester?

[Crazy]

1 Ninja
1 Goon

1 Watcher
1 Tracker
3 Townies

That's less town-favored than Netlava's game. I like it. Especially since it makes a Tracker-claim Day 1 no longer work at all.

[Crazy]

Even if a mafioso is lynched they can kill a mason so that the game goes to pretty much the same situation (lylo with a single Townie in the middle).

Tit for Tat Mafia

1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Mafia Role Cop
1 Mafia Nurse
1 Doctor
1 Vigilante
1 Deputy
6 Townies

Daystart. All roles where sanity is a question are confirmed-sane. If the Mafia Nurse becomes a Doctor they can self-protect.

Not sure what to think. I don't like doctors that can self protect.

Doctors that self-protect aren't an issue unless the doctor is pro-town.

[Crazy]

The main problem with Paris Mafia isn't balance; it's Kingmaker IMO.

Adding an extra townie to Paris Mafia does help, because what went wrong last time is that at the start of Day 2, town had already lost a complete majority. With an extra townie, that couldn't happen until Day 3.

Also, is there a reason why the other mime doesn't die if one of them is killed at night? I forgot about that... but I can't think of any real reason why not.

And it still seems that no matter what you do, the game is still going to go to a Kingmaker scenario a significant amount of times (or a scenario where the town has to just No Lynch and hope the scum accidentally kills the Mime). Perhaps that doesn't matter, but it seems rather unexciting.

Yeah, the setup is good in that it makes the Jester no longer easy to win with, but it doesn't solve the problem with kingmakers. I'm wondering if maybe the mimes should self-destruct if neither of them are lynched after two lynches, or something like that.

Or maybe the mafia should automatically win if their numbers equal the numbers of townies (not townies + mimes.) And then just add enough town so it's balanced.

[Crazy]

In what universe are both Night Watch and Unclean considered balanced?

If Night Watch is balanced, then Unclean ridiculously favors scum. If Unclean is balanced, then Night Watch ridiculously favors town.

How large is this spectrum of "balance?"

[Crazy]

Empking's Five Player

2 Mafia (Even- Night Kill)

1 One-Shot Publishing Cop (the cop's target has their alignment revealed in the end of night post.)
2 Vanilla Townies

(I calculate the town's chance of winning as 7/18)

Are both the target's name and alignment revealed?

Oh yeah, I wrote that wrong. The answer to your question is yes.

Have the cop claim Day 1, and investigate a pre-determined target on Night 1. Scum can't counter-claim the cop, because any fake-claim would be refuted once the results show the following day.

Perhaps only the alignment of the cop's target should be revealed? Then scum could still counter-claim if necessary. I still think it would be best for the cop to claim Day 1 and then No Lynch, though, since that would mean that the cop at least gets his investigation in before he dies. A mislynch is going to mean a scum win whenever it happens, so it's not like a No Lynch on Day 1 "wastes" a lynch or anything.

[Crazy]

You're forgetting that someone dies ever time a lynch happens. >.>

No, I believe he has it right.

On Day 1, there will be 1 cultist out of 13 players. On Day 2, there will be 2 cultists out of 12 players. On Day 3, it will be 3/11.

So chances of cult winning are 12/13 * 10/12 * 9/11, which gives about 63% chance of the cult winning, which I think is a better percentage than the 48% that brokenscraps calculated.

My biggest concern is Day 1. Looking for 1 specific person out of 13 with very little to go on doesn't sound very fun to me, sorry. I think this setup might be better if it could be rebalanced with a Night Start.

[Crazy]

isn't someone lynched each day, and then converted at night?

That's what I thought. One person dies during the day (by lynch) but nobody dies during the night because there's a conversion instead, right?

[Crazy]

I've been running some numbers here - the EV for a Night Start game where the cult leader recruits someone on Night 0. I've been calculating it for the cult only needing 2 mislynches to win the game - since a Night Start disadvantages the cult, it would take quite a large game in order to make a 3-mislynch win condition balanced here.

1 Cult Leader
12 Townies

11/13 * 9/12 = 99/156 = 63.5% chance of scum win.


1 Cult Leader
11 Townies

10/12 * 8/11 = 80/132 = 60.6% chance of scum win


1 Cult Leader
10 Townies

9/11 * 7/10 = 63/110 = 57.3% chance of scum win


1 Cult Leader
9 Townies

8/10 * 6/9 = 48/90 = 53.3% chance of scum win


1 Cult Leader
8 Townies

7/9 * 5/8 = 35/72 = 48.6% chance of scum win


1 Cult Leader
7 Townies

6/8 * 4/7 = 24/56 = 42.9% chance of scum win

1:9, 1:10, and 1:11 all seem like decent odds to me.

[Crazy]

The idea was that cult would have a night kill, I was undecided on whether it would or wouldn't and forgot to put it in. I think night start is a much better idea than what I had though which means night kill should probably be cut out as it would take much larger numbers to balance.

Flays numbers seem to work, so it'd be:

1 Love Cult Leader
15 Vanilla Townies

Night start
3 town lynches = town lose/cult win, 1 cult lynch = town win/cult lose
Cult must recruit each night, if no choice is sent there will be a random choice
There must be a lynch each day, if no majority is reached before deadline then the player with the most votes (and who reached that position first in the event of ties) is lynched

I'd suggest a trial run with Crazy's 1:9 or 1:8 2-lynch number first, might spot any glaring brokenness w/o involving 16 players. Sounds interesting, though... I agree that Mandatory Lynches is probably a good idea, but what do you do if nobody is voting anyone?

I'd just make the town repeatedly stab themselves until they all die. Unfortunately, Empking's suggestion of giving the scum a free NK actually helps the town... that's one less decoy for them.

If a 2-lynch variant is run, I think 1:9 is better than 1:8. EV in 1:9 slightly favors scum while EV in 1:8 slightly favors town.

[Crazy]

Ugh, Jesters. I'm not sure it's ever possible for them to work without some crazy variant.

I think the biggest problem is that they usually make it impossible for the town to lynch somebody without either needing the mafia's vote or the Jester's. Which means someone will have to do something against their win condition - either the Jester helps the scum win, the Jester helps the town win, or the Mafia help the Jester win.

It won't happen every game, but I think it will happen frequently enough that it's not worth it.

[Crazy]

Sanity Check

2 Mafia Goons
1 Cop (either Sane or Insane)
1 Cop (either Naive or Paranoid)

5

3 Vanilla Townies

Both Cops get the same Role PM. Sanity is revealed upon death.

[Crazy]

Empking's Jester

2 Mafia

1 Jester

1 Vig
1 Doc
3 Townies

Ooh, what if the Jester kills himself Night 2 if he hasn't been lynched by then? If you do that and add an extra townie to make 9 players, then the town will never lose their majority, unless if, of course, they actually lose the game to the mafia.

Of course, in this situation, lynches would have to be mandatory, at least on the first 2 days.

[Crazy]

Any chance of making the vig a one-shot and giving the town an extra VT instead? That would kind of correct two minor problems I see at once.

The first is that with a guaranteed Doc, then the Vig might just claim Day 1 and then always be protected. If the Vig was a one-shot Vig, then this play would be less useful.

The second problem is more of a bonus when upping it to 10 players. If the vig (or the mafia, for that matter) kills a Jester on Night 1, this will give the town an extra lynch since there will be only 1 person dying on Night 2 instead of 2 people. Then the game might last until Day 4 instead of ending on Day 3. Therefore, the scum will want to avoid hitting the Jester while the Vig won't be penalized if he DOES shoot the Jester (even though shooting Mafia would still be better for him.)

[Crazy]

I'd like to bring up Empking's Jester setup again. I'll

Nominate

it with my suggestions.

Empking's Jester

2 Mafia

1 Jester (Wins if the town no lynches while he's still alive. Dies at the end of Day 2 if he's not already dead.)

1 One-Shot Vig
1 Doc
5 Townies

All factions are mutually exclusive.

Does anyone have any issues with this setup? So far, neither the regular Jester Mafia nor Paris Mafia have fixed the problems with Jesters, but I believe this setup does.

I also changed the Jester dying during Night 2 into making him die at the end of Day 2 if he's not lynched. I just like the idea that he dies as instantly as he loses the game; it feels better, rather than making him into a possible NK target on Night 2.

[Crazy]

Empking's Newbie

2 Mafia

1 Cop OR Insane Cop
1 Doctor
3 Townies

That still has (much of) the problem of the original Newbie Setup, that the Cop claims Day 1 so the Doctor can keep protecting him.

I'm also not fond of having an insane cop in a newbie game; that would give newbies the impression that it's a standard role, when it really isn't.

[Crazy]

2 Townies
7 Doctors
2 Cops

2 Sks

2 Goons

I'm not great with balance, but I'm pretty sure the mafia don't stand a chance there.

[Crazy]

Oh, lol, I didn't even see that Tragedy posted that right above Shotty's post...

Obviously that setup is swingy as crap, but I'm sure that was your whole point. But really, the chance of the town winning will really just be based on how much the scum crosskills.

[Crazy]

8p Lovers

3 Mafia Lovers

5 Townies

Nightless

Chance of scum win:

5/8 * 4/7
20/56 = 35.7%

:X

Way too town-favored, I think.

[Crazy]

6p Lovers had a 40% chance of

town

winning. 8p Lovers has about a 65% chance of town winning. Meaning the town will win more often than not if they just random lynch all the time.

[Crazy]

What about this?

8p Lovers

2 Mafia Lovers
1 Mafia Goon

5 Townies

Nightless

Eh, nevermind. Way too scum-favored.

[Crazy]

6p Lovers had a 40% chance of

town

winning. 8p Lovers has about a 65% chance of town winning. Meaning the town will win more often than not if they just random lynch all the time.

Oh, wait, nevermind, you're right. 6p lovers does have a 60% of town winning. That's insane. If scum are winning a majority of those setups, then that's even more insane. But certainly if the town already has a 60% chance of winning, we don't need to give them any more advantage.

[Crazy]

let's run one of my setups again

True Love or Follow The Cop

You can't get much better

Nominate True Love

I dunno about Follow The Cop, though; I'm not sure there's any reason for the Princesses to not just claim immediately. Doing that would keep the cop from investigating them and it keeps any wagoned scum from claiming princess.

[Crazy]

4 pairs of Lovers

2 pairs are Town/Scum
2 pairs are Town/Town

Nightless

Lover pairs are publicly revealed at the start of the game. (Or at least they were last time it was run.)

[Crazy]

I'm not really a fan of "percentage" roles like the fisherman. I think most of the people on this site agree.

Your version of the Traitor is a pretty horrible role, pretty much because it's hard to enforce a subjective post restriction. I mean, if the player were to say "Hai guys, I'm pretty sure A, B, C, and D are scum," would that be okay? You need to expect that the players will abuse your rules to the utmost extent of their win condition. If you can't create objective criteria for the post restriction, then you really shouldn't be using that role.

Also, I think Open Games should generally have some sort of "point" or gimmick to them, something to make it unique, and the setup should generally be pretty simple. If it's just a random assortment of unrelated roles, then it should probably be a closed game. But whenever you mod, you probably don't want to use percentage-based roles, and you DEFINITELY don't want to put a role like your Mafia Traitor in unless you really really

really

know what you're doing. And I'd also strongly suggest you get your setup reviewed by someone before you start the game.

[Crazy]

Ultimate WIFOM

2 Mafia Goons
1 Innocent Child (Mod-confirmed town at the start of the game)
1 Watcher
3 Townies

[Crazy]

Ultimate WIFOM

2 Mafia Goons
1 Innocent Child (Mod-confirmed town at the start of the game)
1 Watcher
3 Townies

Nominate

brilliant. Few roles = good design.

Seconded

Thirded

Am I allowed to

Fourth

my own setup?

[Crazy]

itt everybody ignores mine lol

Your one with the 3 groups with 1 scum in each group seems alright, but it has the potential for a bunch of confirmed innocents to enter the game suddenly. If scum is lynched Day 1, then the town gets 3 confirmed innocents. It'll then take a while for scum to kill them all, and games like that could have a tendency to drag due to the confirmed innocents getting lazy.

[Crazy]

9 players maybe?

2 Mafia Goons
1 Innocent Child
1 Watcher
5 Townies

That would solve the problem of Mafia getting an automatic 3p endgame just by openly sacrificing themselves, and I'm sure it improves balance, too. I'd much rather do 9p instead of 11p, though, since if an 11p has scum lynched Day 1, then that creates a sucky game.

[Crazy]

One of the things I sorta dislike about Lights Mafia is that the whole Lights On/Off decision seems kind of arbitrary. I mean, the only speculation for a townie to turn their lights off/on is "Ooh, I wonder if we'll lynch the On/Off Goon today." The only speculation for the scum is "Ooh, I wonder if Townie X thought that the On/Off Goon was going to be lynched today." That's not much. And I think the whole setup kind of fails if either scum is lynched Day 1. After that, the game will either turn into Nightless after Night 1 or the whole on/off decision will be 100% random after Night 1.

[Crazy]

Jester Nightless

1 Mafia (knows the Jester's identity)
1 Jester
4 Townies

Nightless

The Jester suicides and lose if they're not lynched by the end of Day 2.

[Crazy]

If the jester is lynched, does everyone else lose, or does the game continue?

Everyone else loses.

[Crazy]

If the jester is lynched, does everyone else lose, or does the game continue?

Everyone else loses.

:badposting:

There's nothing wrong with a Jester lynch ending the game when it's an open setup. It's in a closed setup where that would be a problem.

And lol @ GreyICE.

[Crazy]

Oh, I thought you were joking.

Obviously, just don't allow people to No Lynch, or change the Jester's win condition to "You win if you're one of the first two people lynched."

[Crazy]

EV for that game was 33.33% Jester win, 26.67% Mafia win, and 40% Town win. I was hoping that by telling the Mafia who the Jester was, that might balance it out some, as well as create that whole "informed minority" thing. But now that I think about it, I kind of dislike that idea, since the Jester could be seriously hindered by bad Mafia play. (I was under the impression that the Mafia would have to direct the lynch away from the Jester without actually claiming, btw.)

So I'd dump the whole "knows the Jester's identity" thing after all. Whether it's balanced "enough" after that, I'm not sure.

[Crazy]

My original intention was that the town would win instantly if the Mafia was lynched Day 1 (though I think my percentages were accidentally made for the other way). I just don't like that the mafia could potentially be like "Ah, crap, well XXX is the Jester, btw," right before he was lynched.

I'm good with the Mafia knowing the Jester's identity if that's what everyone else prefers. That would probably cut back on the Jester's win %, too.

[Crazy]

@Shotty - No, I'm not modding soon. I have no objections if you run it; that's up to farside, I think.

Here's another option:

Jester Nightless 8p

2 Mafia Lovers
1 Jester
5 Townies

Mafia don't know who the Jester is, since the Jester has a tougher time in a setup with more players.
Jester wins if he is one of the first two players lynched. Otherwise, he suicides and loses.
If the Mafia is lynched Day 1, then the town still needs to lynch a Townie in order to get rid of the Jester.
If the Jester is lynched, then the game is over.

With this, the EV percentages are:

Jester - 25%
Town - 30%
Mafia - 45%

[Crazy]

10:2 Mountainous

This is a random tangent, but this has always bugged me... why the heck is it 10:2 Mountainous instead of, say, 9:2 Mountainous? I mean, either way it's the same, 5 lynches to catch 2 scum. I guess it's probably because 12 was the old mini limit so everyone automatically became obsessed with making everything 12 players. But really, I see no reason why the default shouldn't be changed to 9:2 (or to make it more town-favored, 11:2).

As for the Jester, I understand your objections, but I think the main problems with Jesters arise when they exist in closed setups. In an open setup, the main point is still the same, figure out the other player's true intentions and lynch based off of that. There's also the problem with Kingmaker when Jesters exist in open setups, but the Jester's suicide kill solves that problem here.

The thing is, Jesters

will

try to look like scum, but they have a different win condition than scum, so ultimately, there should be differences between Jester play and Scum play. Just like how in regular games scum will try to look like town, but that doesn't mean that scum play is exactly the same as town play.

Also, note that unlike in other Jester setups that have been run in the past, the scum don't have any incentive to look like the Jester, since they still have to survive one lynch after the Jester suicides.

[Crazy]

I feel that taking away the possibility of the Jester leading a scum lynch day 1, then getting lynched as the 'most pro-town player' is silly. Yes, it's 1/10,000, but when it does happen its hysterical.

Yeah, that's kind of cool. I'm fine with the Mafia knowing the Jester's identity OR the game continuing after a mafia lynch, but I think having both of those rules isn't a good idea.

The fact that the Jester knows that the Mafia knows the Jester's identity makes the game actually interesting.

"Person is at L-1, about to be hammered."
"Person X: btw, he's the Jester."

Town WIFOM: Is X scum or Jester?

Then just lynch someone other than those two people until one of them suicides, right? There's no real incentive for the scum to act like a Jester.

My preferences would be:

6p version - Mafia knows Jester's identity; game ends immediately after Mafia lynch Day 1
8p version - Mafia DON'T know Jester's identity; game continues after Mafia lynch Day 1

I also have a feeling that the 8p version is more balanced.

[Crazy]

I suppose he meant nominate it to be run again.

[Crazy]

If you want a nominated setup to be run, a.) mod it yourself or b.) PM someone in the open queue you know and ask them to run one.

Wow, so now mods get total choice in what setup they get to use?

[Crazy]

Pretty much the only way town could win in that setup IS if the mafia killed each other. Otherwise, it's possible for the town to lose on a single mislynch... VERY scum-favored.

[Crazy]

There are a ton of roles in there that I have no idea about how they'd work, chk, or I only have a guess as to what they do. Also, I think a 25 player setup should probably have a 5-person mafia team.

Other than that, yes, it is incredibly swingy, and a mass-claim would break it if it was an open setup. I could imagine it being run on a different site, but probably not here.

[Crazy]

Well, just note that there are roles in there that some people on MS would have issues with - mainly the PBO/PGO, the Rough Cop, the Mafia Nexus, and the Cult. Plus you might want to find somebody to help you with balance - I don't know much about large game balance, but I'm pretty sure a 25-person game should have more than 4 scum.

[Crazy]

Three Way Vanilla

x7 Townies

x2 Mafia A Goons

x2 Mafia B Goons

2:2:9 Is already the standard for mountainous 2 scum-team games, I believe.

[Crazy]

Shadow, what do the colors mean in your RGB game?

[Crazy]

If we're talking about Jesters, I'll point to my old setup here that has been run a couple times. I'm not around at all anymore, but I don't know of any other Jester setup that has been able to function at all.