Newbie 694 (over)

[Amished]

SilverPhoenix was V/LA before the night period, and wasn't active until I joined (not sure if they're active now.. *shrug*), so there was no protection on night one.

I'm assuming you're asking me why I don't think you were targeted in the night phase? I'm not exactly sure. Like I stated in post 915 para's 2 and 3, I fully believe you to be town. In my eyes there's been a substantial number more town tells than scum tells from you, so therefore I wouldn't think that you're scum. Why would I believe you're scum if I don't believe you're scum...

As to last night, I protected you because of a couple reasons. I did drop that "generally most night kills are on the most pro-town" before, and I wasn't sure if the scum were going to go for that. Secondly, I wasn't sure about CC yet either. With 3 vanilla townies down, we're rapidly running out of them in the two power role, though it's possible. I wanted to see if he was a) telling the truth about MR and b) how he'd react if MR was night killed, and what other night actions would've taken place. (Perhaps the scum would've thought that MR didn't exhibit doc traits since they'd know if there was a doc or not with a roleblocker and a non-cc'd cop and therefore go after somebody else. From what I've read, it's typical that the doc tries to stay in the background and not draw attention to themselves. It's impossible for me to really know what the scum thought were doc tells, but obviously they were wrong.) Besides, I thought it would've been a very real possibility to roleblock CC, leave MR, kill somebody else as it could've set up a CC-MR scumpair appearance with little work today.

Also, what the town needs is people who take time when important decisions are on them, especially if MR was indeed an innocent (wasn't sure going into night phase). With his hammer of xtoxm after you specifically asked everyone to wait so you could think it over before choosing, that kind of rash decision could easily lead to a quick mislynch today, losing us the game. Your continued rational demeanor also weighed in your favor as even if I was NK'd, I had faith that you'd take the time to really figure out who was scum, still winning us the game.

I guessed that CC was actually cop, so since I was doc there would be a RB, so they'd RB the cop while searching for the doc, so I didn't think he'd be in trouble of a NK either. That left my decision between Ham, CR and GIEFF. I stated that if everyone was telling the truth, ham and CR would be scum. Therefore I wasn't about to protect either of them, and it still left me with you (GIEFF) as my final protection.

As to ham, I thought we covered (even in this game) that by and large a lying town is bad. Then to bring it up now when we're in lylo, is not the way I feel any town would or should play. I believe you're just getting caught in your own web of lies, and your closeness with xtoxm yesterday is what left you off of his radar for the majority of the time. Even in the end though, he did think that by default you were scum. He didn't want to really believe it, but he thought it through and figured it'd almost have to be.

GIEFF: I agree completely with your analysis of the potential setups. In fact your reasoning for 3 is a large factor as to why I believed CC yesterday. Even ham caught onto this as he pointed out xtoxm's and my willingness to believe CC so early after his claim yesterday. With that information, that's why I'm pretty confident that we are in setup 1 and why I posted the way I did at the end of day 2 and why I still believe CR/FL and Ham are scum. It's even the reason that I voted for CR so quickly after MR did, in hopes of catching that part of the scum pair, as I thought that there wasn't able to have any case against ham quickly enough to lynch that half.

***ham posted while I was writing this, so I'll address that here***

I was extremely defensive when MR overstated/misrepresented what I was saying, and I'd expect anybody to get angry if they were lied about. Just because you haven't jabbed me that way as much as you've gone after GIEFF doesn't mean our reactions have been all that dissimilar.

And as to your "why would a scum player post a lie that could so easily be verified as false?" as that's so far into WIFOM you're out the other side already.

I'm quite sure that it won't bring about the double scum hammer as well, but not for your reasons (or maybe this is what you're referring to). If you're scum (which I'm pretty sure you are), there aren't 2 more scum to quick hammer like you state it would. Also, I'm guessing you're close to voting somebody that several people think is town, and without a damn good case to overwhelm suspicions on you (and FL to an extent) we won't be swayed.

[hambargarz]

Oops, forgot to add this

3) CC is fake cop, Amished is real doc. CC and ham/FL are scum.
...
[*]3 is possible. It would mean there is no roleblocker, but it would also mean that CC would have had to guess which PR was actually in the game. If he guessed wrong, it would have been disastrous for the mafia when he got CC'd, so I don't think 3 is likely.

I don't agree with this conclusion.
Point 3 not "unlikely" because CC was close to being lynched at the time. If he was scum, he would have seen he was going to be lynched anyway to a last ditch fake claim would be appealing. If he wasn't counter-claimed, it would add a strong reason to not lynch him, if he was counter-claimed, he would at least out the cop for his buddy before he was lynched. I see this as being quite possible.

[GIEFF]

You have made so many distortions of the past and so many mistruths in your last few posts that I'm convinced it was intentional, which makes you scum, ham.

Please state my "many mistruths", I believe you're distorting there. I can only think of one area where I was not accurate. I admited I was going off memory, I admit I missed your previous post about CR which is why I had thought Amished post was the first. Why is that scummy?, wouldn't a scum player be quite careful what he was saying? Why would a scum player post a lie that could be so easily be verified as false?

You're right, that is a good point. If you were scum, you would probably try to be more careful about it. This is very WIFOM-y, though, and I am still pretty confident you are scum. Maybe you thought you wouldn't get caught. If you were town, why would you try to build a case on lies? And if town, why do you continue to try to argue that Amished started the CR wagon? CR was under no suspicion whatsoever when I voted him out of the blue, and eventually laid out my reasoning behind it.

Here are your distortions:

Error #1:

The Amished initiated wagon

Wrong. Amished did not start the wagon. magicrabbit was the first to vote CR, and ostensibly for reasons that I brought up in post 840.

Error #2:

In fact, I think GIEFF has attacked everyone BUT CR.

Wrong. post 840

the first real points against CR were brought up by Amished accompanied by his own vote, MR's vote was just a "pressure vote" on CR to post, Amished had pretty much initiated the wagon.

You once again say Amished started the wagon, ignoring my substantial case in 840, and my vote for CR earlier in the day.

Wrong. post 480

Is that the only "attack" on CR? I think it pales in comparison with you're cases on other players.

It's not my fault CR went inactive, and I believe it is on par with the posts I've made against CC.

GIEFF: What are your thoughts on CR, It seems your only points against him are that he didn't answer some of your questions about his behaviour from day 1. Is it safe to assume that CR is quite low on you're list of suspects?

Trying to make it look as though I am not suspicious of CR, and ignoring the fact that I instructed you to hammer on CR if I didn't get back before the deadline. Read my case in 840; for you to say "my only points against him" shows a bias. You are trying to insinuate the case has no merit just because it's based on day 1 actions.

No i'm not claiming I lied on purpose, I don't see how one could have interpreted it that way. What I am saying is that my jabs on you are met with a heavy defensive reaction as opposed to my jabs on other players. The content of the jabs or their validity wasn't part of the subject.

I wouldn't classify my reaction as defensive so much as I would as offensive. If you had done the same thing to another player, I would have first given that player a chance to respond (in case that player is scum, as the reaction would be important), and then attacked you all the same. The fact that your case was directed at me just meant that I didn't have to wait for your target to respond.

I'm quite close to voting someone (which I'm quite sure will not result in a double scum hammer), but am holding off till FL and CC say something.

I'm quite sure it won't either.

GIEFF: The fact that you were not NK'd, would you say the scum players slipped up? I think you would be a good target seeing as everyone thinks you are pro-town. (with the possible exception of MR)

Are you talking about night 1 or night 2?

I have no idea what the scum were trying to do. The fact that I am vocal may have let the scum know that I am VT, and they were PR-hunting, as Xtoxm thought on day 2 re: the N1 NK. Maybe they thought a doctor would be protecting me. Maybe they thought they could manipulate me. Maybe they thought I was not the player who appeared most pro-town to everybody. There are a lot of possible explanations, so no, I do not think the scum players slipped up. Will you make your quicktopic available after the game?

If you're talking about night 2, then if Amished is really the doc, then they obviously didn't slip up, as he protected me.

[hasdgfas]

talk more or deadline's coming down quickly.

[GIEFF]

I can't decide between ham and FL. I wasn't all that suspicious of ham before quite recently, which makes me maybe want to lean more towards FL.

I would like to hear others' thoughts, especially CarnCarn's.

[Amished]

Exactly, we haven't heard from FL since Monday (after stating that his analysis would be in on Wednesday, though did say that he'd have some computer issues), and CC since Tuesday. We need more input than just from GIEFF, ham and I. Honestly I don't care what you really post about, as there's enough here to post on just about anything.

[Amished]

Quick update: My sister is in labor, so I will be with very limited access for this weekend. CHEERS!

[GIEFF]

Quick update: My sister is in labor, so I will be with very limited access for this weekend. CHEERS!

Congratulations!

[Xtoxm]

Baaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

[GIEFF]

Baaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!! :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Sorry, Xtoxm. :(

[GIEFF]

You around, CarnCarn? You haven't posted since Amished's doc claim. Do you believe it? Who do you want to lynch?

[GIEFF]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[GIEFF]

I think I'm going to start storing my personal information here; it's not as if anybody will read it or anything.
Edited out

OK, that should be safe. Bookmarked for my personal future reference. I can't see why anybody else would be reading this thread, but if somebody happens to stumble across it somehow, please don't use any of this information.

[hasdgfas]

Sorry about not paying enough attention to this, I've been a bit sick the past couple days.

Prodded everyone except GIEFF, and deadline will be coming as soon as they all respond.

[hambargarz]

Here are your distortions:

Error #1:

The Amished initiated wagon

Wrong. Amished did not start the wagon. magicrabbit was the first to vote CR, and ostensibly for reasons that I brought up in post 840.

Error #2:

In fact, I think GIEFF has attacked everyone BUT CR.

Wrong. post 840

the first real points against CR were brought up by Amished accompanied by his own vote, MR's vote was just a "pressure vote" on CR to post, Amished had pretty much initiated the wagon.

You once again say Amished started the wagon, ignoring my substantial case in 840, and my vote for CR earlier in the day.

These 3 "distortions" are actually based on the one fact that I had missed post 840 which I already had admitted to. It wasn't like I was changing alot of facts all over the place. Rather it was that 1 post I missed that had lead me to those conclusions. I probably would have noticed it if you had posted more follow up on the issues raised, there's alot of text it's an easy mistake to miss a post, especially when they are very long and contain many ideas.

Are you talking about night 1 or night 2?

Yes both nights. It was kind of rhetorical question, I'll answer it myself to give my thoughts. I know Night 2, MR was a prime target too, There is a WIFOM case for leaving him alive though, MR also didn't contribute as much as you yet for some reason scum preferred you to be alive.
Maybe they still saw MR as more of a threat (meaning they think CC's cop claim is believed by the town), Maybe it's something about the people you were targetting that was favourable to scum (ie. not them). Maybe CC is scum and NK'd MR to strengthen his cop case or maybe you (GIEFF) are scum and therefore are not targeted.

Will you make your quicktopic available after the game?

I don't understand what you mean here

I believe we can go back and forth like this GIEFF which I believe can lead to tunneling on both our parts, I am really waiting on CC or CR/FL to say something to get things rolling.

[GIEFF]

I wasn't talking about you, btw hasdfgas; I appreciate all the replacements and prods and deadlines.


And that info was all fake, but I appreciate the edit nonetheless.

[hambargarz]

I was posting during the time the prod was sent out, hows that for a fast reply. I think I've made record for the fastest response to a prod

[GIEFF]

There is a WIFOM case for leaving him alive though, MR also didn't contribute as much as you yet for some reason scum preferred you to be alive.

So I take this to mean you assume I am town?


I too await CC's thoughts.

[GIEFF]

I was posting during the time the prod was sent out, hows that for a fast reply. I think I've made record for the fastest response to a prod

3 minutes, that is nicely done. I hope you feel better.

[hambargarz]

So I take this to mean you assume I am town?

I wouldn't use the word assume, as you can't really assume anyone is town. There's also a difference between pro-town play and actually being a townie.

In either case, In context, my point was not my own opinion of whether I think you are town or not, it was what the scum believe the town to view you as which would influence their NK choice.

[GIEFF]

OK, understood. It can be confusing talking in nested realities sometimes; just checking.

[Amished]

Slightly around, Sis had to go through a C-section, and I'm staying at their place today to take care of their dog. Where the hell is FL and CC? I wish more had been said since I've been away. I'm planning on heading home tonight so I'll have regular access basically from now on as far as I can tell, barring unforeseen events.

As to Ham's impression on GIEFF: I think no matter what role you are your opinion matters fully. If you're scum, your opinion on whether GIEFF is town matters cause you know, but the way you present it as opinion gives us a point of reference. If you're town, your opinion affects what the scum will think about GIEFF's position in the game. No matter what everyone's opinion matters.

Not realizing who started a wagon doesn't go back to post 840 though, ham. Hasd even puts the people in order on his votecounts to see who voted for who first, and missing something bolded by another player earlier on isn't covered by just missing a big wall of text. In fact, iirc MR didn't even post much in the post that he voted for CR, it was just a quick little post without much behind it.

Without CC + FL involving themselves, this game can't go on much further in my opinion.

[GIEFF]

Hope your sister is recovering well.

I agree; we're stuck until CC and FL get back.

[GIEFF]

Update to the voting history:

By Character

insanepenguin02

FoS: clockworkruse

(Posted as Elennaro)

Post 19
Vote: urielzyx, Unvote., UnFoS.

(Posted as Elennaro)

Post 41
Vote: RealityFan

(Posted as Elennaro)

Post 97
Unvote

(Posted as Elennaro)

Post 157
FoS: militant.

(Posted as Elennaro)

Post 190
FOS: Xtoxm Post 359
Vote: Dipstick Post 378

magicrabbit

FoS: ClockworkRuse

(Posted as infamousace2)

Post 22
Vote: Xtoxm

(Posted as infamousace2)

Post 32
Unvote: Xtoxm

(Posted as infamousace2)

Post 137
FoS: _over9000, FoS: Xtoxm

(Posted as Westbrook_Owns_U)

Post 284
Vote: insanepenguin02

(Posted as Westbrook_Owns_U)

Post 379
FOS: Amished Post 614
Vote: hambargarz Post 624
unvote; <BR>HOS hambargarz <BR>vote Xtoxm Post 650
Unvote: Xtoxm Post 684
Vote: CarnCarn Post 747
unvote vote ClockworkRuse Post 857
Unvote Vote Xtoxm Post 887

hambargarz

vote: Xtoxm Post 26
Unvote, Vote: militant Post 95
FOS: ClockworkRuse Post 110
FOS: GIEFF Post 177
+1 FOS: militant Post 209
+1 FOS: _over9000 Post 248
+1 FOS: Westbrook_Owns_U Post 341
FOS: Xtoxm Post 470
+1 FOS: GIEFF Post 474
Vote: Westbrook_Owns_U Post 500
+1 FOS: Xtoxm Post 579
FOS: CarnCarn, +1 FOS: CarnCarn Post 651
Unvote <BR>Vote: CarnCarn Post 680
Unvote Post 768
+1 FOS Xtoxm Post 774
Vote: Xtoxm Post 882

Dipstick

Vote: GIEFF

(Posted as militant)

Post 28
Unvote

(Posted as militant)

Post 169
FOS: ClockworkRuse

(Posted as _over9000)

Post 235
vote: ClockworkRuse

(Posted as _over9000)

Post 240
Unvote Post 318
FoS Westbrook_Owns_U Post 342
FoS: xtoxm Post 376
MASSIVE HoS: xtoxm Post 385

Amished

VOTE: Elannaro

(Posted as urielzyx)

Post 30
Unvote

(Posted as urielzyx)

Post 57
Vote: infamousace2

(Posted as urielzyx)

Post 121
Vote: ClockworkRuse

(Posted as SilverPhoenix)

Post 287
Vote: Westbrook_Owns_U Post 494
unvote Post 574
Vote: magicrabbit Post 659
Unvote <BR>Vote: GIEFF, Unvote Post 825
Vote: ClockworkRuse Post 873

CarnCarn

Vote: Gieff

(Posted as RealityFan)

Post 43
Unvote, Random Vote: Xtoxm, FoS: Elennaro, FoS: militant, Unvote: Xtoxm Post 204
Unvote:Elennaro Post 230
Vote: _over9000 Post 252
FoS: hambargarz Post 669
Vote: Xtoxm Post 763

ClockworkRuse

Vote: ClockworkRuse Post 82
Unvote, Vote hambargarz Post 96
Vote: Militant Post 171
HoS over9000 Post 256
Mod: Any responses from those prods? Post 281
Unvote Post 305
FoS GIEFF Post 322
HoS Post 452
Vote: Xtoxm Post 467
Major HoS Post 485

Xtoxm

Vote Militant Post 88
Unvote Vote Inf Post 220
Unvote Vote Dipstick Post 382
Vote CR Post 451
Unvote Vote West Post 545
Unvote Post 666
Vote CC Post 670
FOS Gieff Post 689
Unvote Vote CR Post 877

GIEFF

FoS militant Post 146
vote: infamousace2 Post 189
HoS over9000 Post 254
unvote Westbrook (previously infamous) <BR>vote _over9000, FoS Westbrook Post 304
HoS Xtoxm Post 356
Vote Xtoxm Post 391
FoS hambargaz Post 431
HoS hambargaz Post 456
Unvote, Vote: hambargarz Post 541
Unvote Post 543
Vote: ClockworkRuse Post 589
unvote, Vote Xtoxm Post 692
Unvote Xtoxm Post 784
Vote Amished Post 823
Unvote Amished Post 840
HOS: CarnCarn Post 908
FoS hambgargarz Post 912

By Chronology

Post Number

Poster

Vote
Post 19

Elennaro

FoS: clockworkruse
Post 22

infamousace2

FoS: ClockworkRuse
Post 26

hambargarz

vote: Xtoxm
Post 28

militant

Vote: GIEFF
Post 30

urielzyx

VOTE: Elannaro
Post 32

infamousace2

Vote: Xtoxm
Post 41

Elennaro

Vote: urielzyx Unvote. UnFoS.
Post 43

RealityFan

Vote: Gieff
Post 57

urielzyx

Unvote
Post 82

ClockworkRuse

Vote: ClockworkRuse
Post 88

Xtoxm

Vote Militant
Post 95

hambargarz

Unvote Vote: militant
Post 96

ClockworkRuse

Unvote Vote hambargarz
Post 97

Elennaro

Vote: RealityFan
Post 110

hambargarz

FOS: ClockworkRuse
Post 121

urielzyx

Vote: infamousace2
Post 137

infamousace2

Unvote: Xtoxm
Post 146

GIEFF

FoS militant
Post 157

Elennaro

Unvote
Post 169

militant

Unvote
Post 171

ClockworkRuse

Vote: Militant
Post 177

hambargarz

FOS: GIEFF
Post 189

GIEFF

vote: infamousace2
Post 190

Elennaro

FoS: militant.
Post 204

CarnCarn

Unvote Random Vote: Xtoxm FoS: Elennaro FoS: militant Unvote: Xtoxm
Post 209

hambargarz

+1 FOS: militant
Post 220

Xtoxm

Unvote Vote Inf
Post 230

CarnCarn

Unvote:Elennaro
Post 235

_over9000

FOS: ClockworkRuse
Post 240

_over9000

vote: ClockworkRuse
Post 248

hambargarz

+1 FOS: _over9000
Post 252

CarnCarn

Vote: _over9000
Post 254

GIEFF

HoS over9000
Post 256

ClockworkRuse

HoS over9000
Post 281

ClockworkRuse

Mod: Any responses from those prods?
Post 284

Westbrook_Owns_U

FoS: _over9000 FoS: Xtoxm
Post 287

SilverPhoenix

Vote: ClockworkRuse
Post 304

GIEFF

unvote Westbrook (previously infamous) <BR>vote _over9000 FoS Westbrook
Post 305

ClockworkRuse

Unvote
Post 318

Dipstick

Unvote
Post 322

ClockworkRuse

FoS GIEFF
Post 341

hambargarz

+1 FOS: Westbrook_Owns_U
Post 342

Dipstick

FoS Westbrook_Owns_U
Post 356

GIEFF

HoS Xtoxm
Post 359

insanepenguin02

FOS: Xtoxm
Post 376

Dipstick

FoS: xtoxm
Post 378

insanepenguin02

Vote: Dipstick
Post 379

Westbrook_Owns_U

Vote: insanepenguin02
Post 382

Xtoxm

Unvote Vote Dipstick
Post 385

Dipstick

MASSIVE HoS: xtoxm
Post 391

GIEFF

Vote Xtoxm
Post 431

GIEFF

FoS hambargaz
Post 451

Xtoxm

Vote CR
Post 452

ClockworkRuse

HoS
Post 456

GIEFF

HoS hambargaz
Post 467

ClockworkRuse

Vote: Xtoxm
Post 470

hambargarz

FOS: Xtoxm
Post 474

hambargarz

+1 FOS: GIEFF
Post 485

ClockworkRuse

Major HoS
Post 494

Amished

Vote: Westbrook_Owns_U
Post 500

hambargarz

Vote: Westbrook_Owns_U
Post 541

GIEFF

Unvote Vote: hambargarz
Post 543

GIEFF

Unvote
Post 545

Xtoxm

Unvote Vote West
Post 574

Amished

unvote
Post 579

hambargarz

+1 FOS: Xtoxm
Post 589

GIEFF

Vote: ClockworkRuse
Post 614

magicrabbit

FOS: Amished
Post 624

magicrabbit

Vote: hambargarz
Post 650

magicrabbit

unvote; <BR>HOS hambargarz <BR>vote Xtoxm
Post 651

hambargarz

FOS: CarnCarn +1 FOS: CarnCarn
Post 659

Amished

Vote: magicrabbit
Post 666

Xtoxm

Unvote
Post 669

CarnCarn

FoS: hambargarz
Post 670

Xtoxm

Vote CC
Post 680

hambargarz

Unvote <BR>Vote: CarnCarn
Post 684

magicrabbit

Unvote: Xtoxm
Post 689

Xtoxm

FOS Gieff
Post 692

GIEFF

unvote Vote Xtoxm
Post 747

magicrabbit

Vote: CarnCarn
Post 763

CarnCarn

Vote: Xtoxm
Post 768

hambargarz

Unvote
Post 774

hambargarz

+1 FOS Xtoxm
Post 784

GIEFF

Unvote Xtoxm
Post 823

GIEFF

Vote Amished
Post 825

Amished

Unvote <BR>Vote: GIEFF Unvote
Post 840

GIEFF

Unvote Amished
Post 857

magicrabbit

unvote vote ClockworkRuse
Post 873

Amished

Vote: ClockworkRuse
Post 877

Xtoxm

Unvote Vote CR
Post 882

hambargarz

Vote: Xtoxm
Post 887

magicrabbit

Unvote Vote Xtoxm
Post 908

GIEFF

HOS: CarnCarn
Post 912

GIEFF

FoS hambgargarz

[Amished]

Thanks for the well wishes, she's released from the hospital today, so everything should go well Also thanks for the voting history.

Mod, has either CC or FL picked up the prod? Obviously they haven't posted, but maybe they pm'd you saying they'd be away or something?


Neither has picked up the prod, but I know fuzzylightning has mentioned elsewhere that he is having major computer difficulties. I'm giving them 24 hours to do something before replacement though.