Mini 738: The Town of Merrin - Game Over

[springlullaby]

I don't know if they are townies or not but its seems delibrate that she's going after Dejka and not Ting =).

This doesn't make sense. Why is my not going after Ting scummy? What is the point of comparison between djekha and Ting that you are basing this on?

[springlullaby]

doesn't anybody here have the feeling that this is one big overreaction? This is going way too fast. I don't like fast wagons, esspecially not when they are early. Are you really in favor of a panzerlynch page 7? didn't think so...

Mykonian, I know for a fact that you do this kind of helpful townie act when you are scum.

Do you have anything else to say? Your thoughts on Panzer aside from the speed of the wagon please?

[GIEFF]

doesn't anybody here have the feeling that this is one big overreaction? This is going way too fast. I don't like fast wagons, esspecially not when they are early. Are you really in favor of a panzerlynch page 7? didn't think so...

Do you disagree that your defense of Panzer in post 143 was irrational? Instead of answering my questions and continuing the discussion, you decided to appeal to a broader audience.

mykonian, how likely did you think it was that Panzer would be lynched today before your latest post? And how likely do you think it is now?

[Dourgrim]

I do not believe this qualifies as a "fast wagon" at this point. 7 pages of Day One in a mini setup isn't fast, at least by my memory of typical game flow.

If we do lynch Panzer today, I think we're going to learn a LOT about the other players in the game based on the stubbornness of arguments and voting patterns, which will make tomorrow a very interesting day. I'll say this, though: if Panzer does get lynched and comes up scum, mykonian will get my vote first thing tomorrow. If Panzer comes up Town, I think there are other people who will end up in the spotlight, and I'll cast my votes accordingly.

[mykonian]

doesn't anybody here have the feeling that this is one big overreaction? This is going way too fast. I don't like fast wagons, esspecially not when they are early. Are you really in favor of a panzerlynch page 7? didn't think so...

Do you disagree that your defense of Panzer in post 143 was irrational? Instead of answering my questions and continuing the discussion, you decided to appeal to a broader audience.

I have seen more town lynches for "contradictions" and "lies". Scum wouldn't want to lie this way, town wouldn't. It is imperfect play in any case, but you make a scumtell out of it, and I think that is wrong.

mykonian, how likely did you think it was that Panzer would be lynched today before your latest post? And how likely do you think it is now?

I have no idea. People seem way too serious about it. Don't think you would do it today, but two or three days should be a lot off.

Spring: I do that "helpful towny act" because it is one part of my town play that doesn't hurt if I'm scum. If I believe a certain wagon to be too weak, then I say that: to make that statement worth something, I give reasons. Now try to make something antitown out of that...

[GIEFF]

I have seen more town lynches for "contradictions" and "lies". Scum wouldn't want to lie this way, town wouldn't. It is imperfect play in any case, but you make a scumtell out of it, and I think that is wrong.

Do you think Panzer calling dejkha a townie is a scumtell?

[mykonian]

missed that one, sorry. Where did he say that?

in case he stated it as the absolute truth, yes. Otherwise I should look at how he says it first.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Just a note: Mykonian has mild connection to Panzer if Panzer is scum.
Read to this point, nothing new to add. (waiting on Militant to return.)

[GIEFF]

I'm an exetremely aggresive play and sometimes I get ahead of myself.

All I can do is attempt to scumhunt my way out of this whole I accidently put my self into.

I don't see this aggression you're talking about. And your subsequent scumhunting is just parroting others' points:

I'm with Spring lullaby on the "Oldie card"

Spring lullaby on the other hand, is deliberately picking her spots and choosing specifically who she wants to go after. I don't know if she isn't reading or truly picking on townies. Unvote: Vote:Springlullaby

Parroting my Post 157.


Panzer hasn't made a single original contribution to scumhunting other than his original vote for mykonian, even after saying that he would start to do so.


-------------------


mykonian:

You never answered my question in post 142, instead answering it with one of your own (which I did answer). I'll repeat my question.

Can you think of a reason a townie would lie about his reason for voting somebody?

And here is Panzer calling dejkha a townie, in Post 158.

Spring lullaby on the other hand, is deliberately picking her spots and choosing specifically who she wants to go after. I don't know if she isn't reading or truly picking on townies.

Unvote: Vote:Springlullaby

[mykonian]

I think I have showed what I think about that lying, and that I have said that a towny had no reason to do that. However, scum would have had no reason to lie there either. At least, when I'm scum, I try not to lie a single time, because it is so easy to catch you then. So I wouldn't understand why any player would lie, and that's why I get to my conclusion that this must be imperfect play.

Panzers accusation on spring seems to come from the fact that he thinks that springs targets are a bit arbitrary. I didn't have that feeling when spring came with that post against dejkha. So I don't yet know what to think about this. If spring is scum, panzer is likely too. That way he could easily have spotted the way she attacked.

[GIEFF]

You're missing the point, mykonian. Panzer said that springlullaby is "picking on townies" instead of "picking on dejkha." Do you think that is a scumtell?

And as for your first paragraph, I already answered it in my Post 144, which you continue to ignore.

[mykonian]

we are talking around each other. What I'm also trying to say, and that should be the answer on post 144: why would panzer be so eager to lie in the half-random-voting-stage? Because I'm so obvious protown, that he must get rid of me? It makes no sense.

and about the picking on townies: that could be a scumslip. I would like to hear Panzers explanation of that (although I can imagine what his answer is going to be).

[GIEFF]

we are talking around each other. What I'm also trying to say, and that should be the answer on post 144: why would panzer be so eager to lie in the half-random-voting-stage? Because I'm so obvious protown, that he must get rid of me? It makes no sense.

and about the picking on townies: that could be a scumslip. I would like to hear Panzers explanation of that (although I can imagine what his answer is going to be).

He already responded to it. Post 161

Panzer didn't lie in the half-random-voting stage. He lied later, but about his reasoning in the half-random-voting stage.

[Goatrevolt]

mykonian: Nobody is going to make an obvious lie on purpose. Your argument in defense of Panzer is essentially: "He acted scummy, and scum aren't going to act scummy because people attack scummy play." The error is that nobody acts scummy on purpose, but scum do act scummy by nature of what they are trying to accomplish vs. what a townie is trying to accomplish.

Spring: I'm curious what YOUR stance on Panzer is?

[ting =)]

Alright, I've just finished rereading the whole game. I have to run now though, but I'll be back in a few hours. I'll just post the notes I made, but they're rather indicipherable and were meant more for self reference than for showing. You can go ahead and ignore them.

I'll make a more coherent post about what I think of everyone when I get back.

---
Panzer-Myko. SK, all want to lynch mafia, slip.
24m, 36p, 37d, 42g, 43p, 49m, 62p, 63m, 64p, 67p,77go,

GIEFF-Dour. No vote. Joke/serious vote.
33d,45d,48d, 54g, 59d, 61g,

68d

, 77go,

Dour-GIEFF. Bad reaction(d). Bad attacking(g).
68d, 82g,

Dour-GIEFF. Active lurking, same point.
86d, 87g,

Dour-De-goat. Dour is nitpicky on little things.
48 - 53.

Myko-Panzer. Joke/serious vote. (note: gieff sees panzer as lying, not as making a mistake)
55m, 58m, 73t, 78m, 88p, 89g, 91p, 92g, 105g, 108go, 117g, 118go, 120p, 123g, 130p,

Macavity-GIEFF-Panzer. SK threat. Misrepresent.
43p,

75ma

, 76g, 81ma, 82g,

Goat-Dour. Why bring up cop?
77go - unanswered,

Spring-djek. defending?
97s,

Myko-Dour. Defending wrong logic.
90m, 95d,

Myko-GIEFF. Panzer not scum. (panzer and myko both backtracked from their earlier posts. why gieff not calling myko lying?)
137m, 140g, 141m, 144g, 145m, 146g, 151g,

GIEFF-Panzer. Did not lie.
158p, 160g,

Panzer-Gieff-Goat. Slips.
162g, 167su,

Spring-Myko. Acting townie.
176s,

random reread.
90m, 149go, 150b,

Random don't like.
90m - panzer's early game protown? 95d
94p - statement of obvious fact that doesn't answer gieff's 92 and myko's 93.
148s
153b

------------------------

observations till page 6:
Lots of nitpicking on tiny details. Lots of theory discussion that doesn't directly help in finding scum. Scum deliberately sidetracking convo? Theorizing to look like doing something? Scum bussing each other on minor details? Check who's doing a lot of talking before page 6 without saying anything relevant.

--
post page 6:

Reread on panzer, spring, dek. fuzzy on details. Panzer to decide if it looks more like a mistake or a lie.

Spring attack on dejk is iffy. Deliberately not joining in the bigger wagons/suspicions? Read spring/dejk posts in isolation.

Read dour-gieff discussions. Scum bussing on minor details for future disassociation?

Forgot about beyond_birthday till page 7. Reread previous posts.

NOTE: GIEFF ASKED A QUESTION IN 157.

Subgenius and Militant pop up in page 7. Did they v/la?

Myko defense seems genuine. Read earlier panzer-myko interactions.

[Dourgrim]

FWIW, putting "notes" in the thread and then telling people to ignore them is annoying... either that or it's there intentionally to cause people to jump to conclusions about your opinion, and to spark controversy. Of course, that's just my opinion, YMMV.

[mykonian]

we are talking around each other. What I'm also trying to say, and that should be the answer on post 144: why would panzer be so eager to lie in the half-random-voting-stage? Because I'm so obvious protown, that he must get rid of me? It makes no sense.

and about the picking on townies: that could be a scumslip. I would like to hear Panzers explanation of that (although I can imagine what his answer is going to be).

He already responded to it. Post 161

Panzer didn't lie in the half-random-voting stage. He lied later, but about his reasoning in the half-random-voting stage.

Yes that was the answer I would expect: it was the assumption that spring was scum that would make them town. As the whole post is build to accuse spring, the assumption is that she is scum. Could be a slip though, but it is not conclusive.

So why would panzer lie if it was just a random vote? Scum could easily walk away from it by saying it was only random with a joke. I know it is wifom, but why would Panzer lie? A lie as scum can only be a scumtell if it had use to scum, at least that is what I believe. This lie couldn't even confuse us. That's why I can't believe it is a scumtell.

[mykonian]

plus that people seem to be to eager to vote for this lie. It can't be a good thing that there is noone that says something is going too easy.

[GIEFF]

So why would panzer lie if it was just a random vote? Scum could easily walk away from it by saying it was only random with a joke. I know it is wifom, but why would Panzer lie? A lie as scum can only be a scumtell if it had use to scum, at least that is what I believe. This lie couldn't even confuse us. That's why I can't believe it is a scumtell.

I will quote it again.

And yes, I can think of a reason a mafia would lie about the reasoning for his vote. As I've said before, townies don't have the information the mafia do, and so they actually use logic to try to figure out who to vote for and who is scum. The mafia already know who is mafia and who isn't, so all they have to do is FAKE logic, as their real reasons for voting are the knowledge they already possess. And when you fake logic, you get caught in lies, as Panzer was.

Panzer was faking logic.

The lie wasn't meant to confuse the town, it was meant to convince the town that Panzer really thought you were scum, that he saw scummy behavior and acted on it, rather than voting for you for other reasons and trying to fabricate reasons he did not really believe to justify it.

I know it is wifom

I do, too.



And mykonian, if you don't like the Panzer lynch, how about doing some scumhunting to try to find a better one? All you've done so far is FOS'd dourgrim and myself, and it looks like that was mainly based on the fact we're voting for Panzer, right? In retrospect, all your "scumhunting" so far just looks like the chainsaw portion of your defense of Panzer.

I'm not sure if you're scum protecting a scumbuddy or scum protecting a townie to make yourself look innocent tomorrow, but I don't think a townie would be so sure of Panzer's alignment. If others are as sure as mykonian is that Panzer would be a bad lynch, please speak up now.

FoS mykonian

[mykonian]

have it your way. You keep having the idea that scum has to fake reasons from there first post. From experience I know that this is not true. But it seems I'm not going to convince you.

I can't imagine that on page 8, everybody would already lynch for a lie for a vote in the random voting stage. That makes that I suspect this wagon, because I think it is to big for the reasons given. I know it is day one, but you can at least try to get a good wagon.

and GIEFF: good call, I'm again being to defensive. Tomorrow I'm quite busy, but in the weekend I should be able to post something about people I suspect. 8 pages reread can't be that hard.

[PJ.]

@Gieff, First of all the "slip" you mentioned is a semantics issue. I said townies simply because I didn't feel like spelling Dejka(sp?) because I don't like sifting through post just so I can spell a name right.

Furthermore, Pigging backing, really? This is the weakest scumtell. Can't we just share opinions? Maybe what you had said sparked my brain and I looked more into it? Get off my nuts for silly semantics issues and hunt scum.

Also, I've been called out on my aggresiveness which is a great way to spark my interest in a game, I'm suddenly willing to play.

The quote post above is a variation OMGUS: suspect someone by seemingly defending someone else for an action one has/is going to commit, the effect of which is to justify one's action.

This is further scummy because, if it is my prerogative to play as I wish, I certainly don't see anything remotely recommendable in my random vote. It is also scummy because accusing someone of being 'too eager' in the random stage is piss poor play and just plain scummy.

I have read the last pages or so. My comment on them is that I don't particularly like the dynamic of this town, there is plenty of talk and speculation but not enough true aggressiveness IMO. Note here that the SK talk may be interesting in the future but not now. Right now I would like to suggest more focused fire, starting now with a djekha wagon for example.

This is where you jump on Dejkha for calling someone too eager.

unvote. Vote:Panzerjager

For making a big thing out of a small thing.

This is where Ting votes me for being too eager and overeacting.

There is no post where you jump on ting. Hence the question, Why did you jump on Dejkha and not Ting.


Additionaly, Whoever thought that me and Spring would be both scum together is displaying faulty logic. The statement, especially the way Gieff looks at it, would be more easily construed as me being buddies with Dejkha.

[GIEFF]

@Gieff, First of all the "slip" you mentioned is a semantics issue. I said townies simply because I didn't feel like spelling Dejka(sp?) because I don't like sifting through post just so I can spell a name right.

This issue is that this makes it seem like you know dejkha's role. It goes beyond semantics.

Also, I've been called out on my aggresiveness which is a great way to spark my interest in a game, I'm suddenly willing to play.

You weren't willing to play before?


Anything new to add, Panzer? You are still just parroting my point at the bottom of post 157.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Note to self: Read to this point, nothing to add and have no change of opinion.

[Goatrevolt]

Posting notes in thread seems to be the hip thing to do. I'm going to start posting notes from my math classes in here.

[springlullaby]

The quote post above is a variation OMGUS: suspect someone by seemingly defending someone else for an action one has/is going to commit, the effect of which is to justify one's action.

This is further scummy because, if it is my prerogative to play as I wish, I certainly don't see anything remotely recommendable in my random vote. It is also scummy because accusing someone of being 'too eager' in the random stage is piss poor play and just plain scummy.

I have read the last pages or so. My comment on them is that I don't particularly like the dynamic of this town, there is plenty of talk and speculation but not enough true aggressiveness IMO. Note here that the SK talk may be interesting in the future but not now. Right now I would like to suggest more focused fire, starting now with a djekha wagon for example.

This is where you jump on Dejkha for calling someone too eager.

unvote. Vote:Panzerjager

For making a big thing out of a small thing.

This is where Ting votes me for being too eager and overeacting.

There is no post where you jump on ting. Hence the question, Why did you jump on Dejkha and not Ting.

Because of the OMGUS I think is present in djekha's post. Did you miss that?

@Goat: I think Panzer is being scummy, I especially didn't like the post in which he said that he is usually aggressive then apologized for his play in the same breath. It is somewhat a contradiction in term. Most genuinely aggressive players are unapologetic about their play, and sustain heat pretty well too. But I'm in no hurry to see a lynch, and the Panzer wagon don't need my help now, so I'm content with letting things runs and see.