Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[Xtoxm]

Because if you are town, you will lose town the game anyway, by lynching me tomorrow, if we get there.

[Incognito]

Xtoxm, do you think Raging Rabbit's scum? Because if you don't, please unvote him. This argument is terrible:

Because if you are town, you will lose town the game anyway, by lynching me tomorrow, if we get there.

If we go by this logic, then technically we could lynch you today so that

you

won't make it to an end-game tomorrow, which would still prevent Raging Rabbit from doing what you've indicated in the above quote. You get?

Did it occur to you that buddying up and expressing a town read on the guy that screwed up so bad he's about to get lynched regardless might be a plausible scum tactic?

Yes, this occurred to me but the way Xtoxm arrived at his icemanE-town read just struck me as genuine. Besides, I actually felt like icemanE was the one buddying up to Xtoxm. In 1004, icemanE voted for Xtoxm saying "LAWL XTOXM IS SCUM" and then in 1010, he switched his vote to you saying that he "misread the conversation" (between RR and Xtoxm).

[eldarad]

eldarad: You're seriously claiming that a vig is a more powerful role than an information role?

I'm suggesting that a vig is potentially more damaging to scum than Electra's information was - at least partly because scum could also benefit from the information.
As I said, I didn't expect an answer to my question in #1210 so I won't comment on the answers I have received, I just wanted people do know what was on my mind.

If you really think I'm scum, then vote for me or make a case against me. Do you think my play here looks or feels dissimilar from my play in Satin Doll?

I think your play is similar to Satin Doll, but that is neither here nor there. As it is, I am presented with a fait accompli that is actually very persuasive evidence of your towniness in its own right.
From my perspective, it is certain that at least one of the people boosting you is scum. In the - now likely - scenario of Incogtown I am now able to deduce that both scum boosted you. And do you know what? I like those odds.

2. This argument is about as good as "the guy the scum NK'd thought I was town!"

Huh. I actually think that pointing to a confirmed townie who held an opinion is good evidence of the sincerity of that position. But that's splitting hairs - I agree with #1224.

I read through TDC in isolation and don't see anything suspicious.
So I re-read the end of Day 1. sthar's #676 is potentially our smoking gun as he positions himself to vote Huntress in preference to the Jahudo wagon. But at the same time I agree with everything he says about Huntress.
Unfortunately, he didn't have time to respond to Huntress' claim on Day 1 (yeah, yeah, that's partly my fault for hammering).
I don't find Xtoxm to be scummy, although I am anxious about Incog's certainty on this point

I already said yesterday that you and Iceman were very scummy independently, first, and seemed connected, second.

Yesterday I was concerned that you were linking Iceman to Xtoxm. That theory only holds water now if you are scum with Xtoxm. And, to be honest, I don't find that to be any more likely than any other possible scumteam at the moment. But I don't like how you have just moved onto your next target (Xtoxm) when your first target (Iceman) flipped town. At least I had the decency to drop my Guardian-iLord-Incog scumteam theory once I was proven spectacularly wrong.
Independently of your attempted linking of Xtoxm to Iceman, I find your trait of saying "OMGUS!" "WIFOM!" "LAL!" as a way of shooting down others without expanding on it to be unhelpful to the point of being scummy.

For RR to be scum, he has to have voted for Jahudo over Huntress late Day 1 and that does require some soul-searching.

An Xtoxm-scum, on the other hand, is very much an IIoA scum. He'll comment on anything and everything except for the game itself and will very rarely express his thoughts on the players.

Yeah, but Incog, Xtoxm

hasn't read the whole thread.

That may be a better - or at least equally valid - explanation as to why Xtoxm's posts don't contain information (as opposed to analysis of what just happened).

After that meandering post, I'm very close to voting Raging Rabbit. I'm just going to read GC before committing.

[Raging Rabbit]

But I don't like how you have just moved onto your next target (Xtoxm) when your first target (Iceman) flipped town. At least I had the decency to drop my Guardian-iLord-Incog scumteam theory once I was proven spectacularly wrong.

1. Xtoxm was my first target, then I moved to Iceman what it became clear he wasn't getting lynched.
2. Though I did see a link (likely buddying up, in hindsight), my case on Xtoxm is completely independent of Iceman being scum or not. I even said so yesterday.

Independently of your attempted linking of Xtoxm to Iceman, I find your trait of saying "OMGUS!" "WIFOM!" "LAL!" as a way of shooting down others without expanding on it to be unhelpful to the point of being scummy.

I think Xtoxm is a rather obvious case of "LAL" - when a replacement totally contradicts his predeccesor's (already shady looking, imo) claim, you should lynch him. Do you really need to me to expand to see why that's an uber scumtell?

I don't remember where I emptily said "WIFOM", but that can also make sense when a point relies purely on speculation on scum choices/the setup - in which case "WIFOM!" is like saying "but we can't know that for sure."

"OMGUS" is never a good defence in and of itself, when faced with an actual case, and I don't remeber ever using it either. I've yet to see an actual case on me, really. Xtoxm doesn't even pretend to think I'm scum, just that I "need to die", while you listed two things I did you didn't like but haven't really explained why that makes you think I'm scum.

[eldarad]

Haven't finished reading GC, but I've read enough, I think.

1. Xtoxm was my first target, then I moved to Iceman what it became clear he wasn't getting lynched.
2. Though I did see a link (likely buddying up, in hindsight), my case on Xtoxm is completely independent of Iceman being scum or not. I even said so yesterday.

Having re-read the start of Day 2 as part of my read on GC, I also saw you attempting to link sthar/Xtoxm with Electra and me, before you moved on to linking Xtoxm with Iceman.
It looks like a pattern to me, rather than two or three independent cases. I remember you saying that your case on Iceman is independent of your case on Xtoxm. The trouble is I don't really believe you...you've been working very hard to link other people - people who have turned out to be townies - to sthar/Xtoxm.

"OMGUS" is never a good defence in and of itself, when faced with an actual case, and I don't remeber ever using it either. I've yet to see an actual case on me, really. Xtoxm doesn't even pretend to think I'm scum, just that I "need to die", while you listed two things I did you didn't like but haven't really explained why that makes you think I'm scum.

Your use of OMGUS is the worst of the three things I mentioned. You even had the gall to shout "pre-emptive OMGUS" - saying that I was voting you in response to things that

you hadn't even said yet

.

WIFOM is linked to your assertion that you considered Electra's alignment

without

assessing whether her claim - in her first post - was genuine or not "because it is WIFOM". You must have considered it - but your reluctance to admit it suggests that you're trying to say what you think the town wants to hear.
My read on Electra wasn't entirely based on WIFOM but I recognised that I had to make a judgement one way or the other on her claim. I didn't shy away from that judgement.

LAL is just the third standard phrase you used that makes me think a pattern is emerging here. I can see Xtoxm's claim is different to sthar's but I can also see that sthar's claim is/was incomplete.

~~~
Basically, if Incog is town, I have a 50/50 chance of voting scum if I pick one of the 4 Incog-boosters to lynch. And if we lynch wrong, Incog still has the opportunity to vig one of the 3 remaining Incog-boosters.
If Incog is scum, we're pretty much screwed already.

vote Raging Rabbit

[Raging Rabbit]

Having re-read the start of Day 2 as part of my read on GC, I also saw you attempting to link sthar/Xtoxm with Electra and me, before you moved on to linking Xtoxm with Iceman.
It looks like a pattern to me, rather than two or three independent cases. I remember you saying that your case on Iceman is independent of your case on Xtoxm. The trouble is I don't really believe you...you've been working very hard to link other people - people who have turned out to be townies - to sthar/Xtoxm.

You "don't really believe me"? Well, there's nothing I can say to convince you my case on Xtoxm is independant of any other suspicion, regarless of possible linkage - other than point to the obvious, which is that the bulk of my case (his claim) has nothing to do with any other player. I could also point out that it's natural to look for possible partners when you're sure someone is scum. To top things off, I could mention that even if the above wasn't true, trying to link people with Xtoxm is only a scumtell if you think we're scum together, which you already said you don't - but I doubt any of these things will make you "believe me", since I get a feeling you started this analysis with the clear intention of finding reasons to vote me, either because you're scum or because you're too sure everyone else is town.

Your use of OMGUS is the worst of the three things I mentioned. You even had the gall to shout "pre-emptive OMGUS" - saying that I was voting you in response to things that you hadn't even said yet.

1. I like how you use the word "even" without citing any other examples.
2. I expanded on it, had other reasons to find you scummy, and generally did not by any means hide behind shouting "OMGUS!" I just mentioned how what you did seemed similar to the "preemtive OMGUS" thing Guardian (who was the doctor, btw) coined.

WIFOM is linked to your assertion that you considered Electra's alignment without assessing whether her claim - in her first post - was genuine or not "because it is WIFOM". You must have considered it - but your reluctance to admit it suggests that you're trying to say what you think the town wants to hear.
My read on Electra wasn't entirely based on WIFOM but I recognised that I had to make a judgement one way or the other on her claim. I didn't shy away from that judgement.

Do you even read my posts? For the millionth time,

yes I considered it

but I didn't have the necessary info to really come to a conclusion without using arbitrary sets of assumptions which I can't be sure of (WIFOM!). I therefore relied on other things to decide what I think of electra/Vollkan, and arrived to the conclusion they were likely town. (And what in the world would make me think this is "what the town wants to hear"?)

LAL is just the third standard phrase you used that makes me think a pattern is emerging here. I can see Xtoxm's claim is different to sthar's but I can also see that sthar's claim is/was incomplete.

Reread page 30. Sthar said his claim's complete in the a very clear way, which is by no means open to intepertation. I explained this many times already.

Essentially, you claimed to find me scummy for hiding behind mafia phrases, but all you've proved is that I've

used

said phrases. I never hid behind anything.

[Incognito]

eldarad, I never got the impression that Raging Rabbit ever tried to link anyone with anyone. I always felt like the cases he pushed against people were completely independent of one another (for example, when he came after me and iLord pretty hard during Day 1, I never felt like he thought the two of us were a scum team -- just that we were independently scummy). Please point to the specific instances where you felt like he's done this. I'll respond to the rest of your case later, but for now, I'm not sure I'm completely buying it.

Raging Rabbit, the last completed scum game I found of yours was Open 15. Have you recently completed any other game where you've been scum?

TDC, Raging Rabbit has pretty clearly stated a number of times that he thinks you're town. What are your thoughts on him?

Your recollection of events is wrong. I supported giving Ice a night to investigate while people were pushing for the Ice lynch. My vote change didn't occur until we came down to "lynch someone or no lynch." Your suggestion that I changed my vote to hop on the bandwagon simply because more people were warming up to the idea of an Ice lynch is misrepresenting what happened. I voted Ice because I thought

a

lynch was infinitely better than

no

lynch - and out of the two leading lynch candidates (ice and Eld), I thought iceman was the less believable of the two.

I don't entirely believe that your vote was placed as a last minute "preventing a 'No Lynch'" vote.

I used that fake softclaim about a post restriction as an excuse for not posting. That doesn't make me scum.

How am I supposed to not vote you after you yourself admitted to lying to the town about your lurking?

To me, this looks very much like you were warming up to the idea of icemanE being scum. Do you agree or disagree with this assessment?

What do people think about Green Crayons's post 649?

What do people think about eldarad's post 890? I'll give my thoughts about it after you give me yours.

~More later~

[Xtoxm]

I'm thinking on a TDC-GC pair now...

And it has occured to me, that possibly the reason Incog wasn't killed, is scum have an RB, which still has an unused one-shot ability. And infact I can see this as quite likely given how many one shots town started with. So they can keep Incog alive, and control his kill. He'd made it obvious he was gonna vig Hunt-town so no need ot block him.

Unvote Vote GC

RR needs to be vigged.

Eld, if you think i'm town, boost me.

[Incognito]

I'm trying to go back through the thread to pick out other interesting things that I've noticed. My posts might be a bit disjointed in the coming days.

Here's an interesting vote count in retrospect:

Day 1, Vote Count #4 - Lynching

Skillet (Green Crayons) (5) <-

Electra (vollkan)

, sthar8 (Xtoxm), eldarad, TDC,

Crazy (Huntress)

sthar8 (2) <- Incognito, Raging Rabbit
fuzzylightning <- Jahudo
eldarad <- iLord
Crazy <- Skillit
Incognito <- springlullaby

I find this vote count interesting because the wagon on Skillit involved four (4) different players who are currently alive whose alignments are unknown. eldarad, you mentioned the following in response to a question from Mana_Ku (who preceded Green Crayons for Skillit's replacement spot):

Eldarad seems pro-town. Although, he immediatly boosts Electra, which should have been thought over in my opinion, he's trying to find scum. But I've got one question. You saw Skilit as scummy. Then he notes that there's probably one scum on his wagon. Hw come you agree with this as you saw him as scum?

Just because I boosted Electra early doesn't mean I didn't think it over...I just thought it over quickly
I'd also refer you back to my explanation that I gave to iLord way back in post 32:

Fair enough. But also note that I was trying to start a boostwagon too.

Skillit's wagon grew very quickly. My assessment was that,

even if Skillit is scum

it was very, very likely that at least one scum was on his wagon. Either:
1) Skillit was town and scum were on his wagon trying to push a townie mislynch, or
2) Skillit was scum and one of his scumbuddies had jumped on as bussing/distancing/going with the flow.

What are your current thoughts on this? More specifically, who do you think of the remaining three people (I'm not including you for obvious reasons) the scums are?

[Xtoxm]

Why hasn't MC happend?

[Incognito]

Thanks for reminding me about that too lol.

This order's fine:

2) Green Crayons (replacing Mana_Ku who replaced Skillit)
3) Raging Rabbit
5) TDC
8) eldarad

[TDC]

An Xtoxm-scum, on the other hand, is very much an IIoA scum. He'll comment on anything and everything except for the game itself and will very rarely express his thoughts on the players. In this game, he's (very concisely as per usual) let us all know who he's suspicious of and who he thinks is town and so far, he's been accurate with his town choices at least (Huntress and icemanE were both town like he thought). Obviously you don't have to take any of my word for this: you can go through his games on your own if you'd like too. And if you're still doubtful about my ability to tell the difference, here's a vote that I made in a past Newbie Game on page 3 of that thread with a completely serious vote on what ended up being an Xtoxm-D1-lynched-scum. From what I've seen, I really don't think his (scum) playstyle has changed all that dramatically from that point to now.

He can't be that blatant every time as scum, can he? I mean.. with so many games under his belt and supposedly such a clear cut scum meta, you'd think he'd use it to his advantage when scum once in a while..

Xtoxm: Mind linking to your last two or three scum games?

TDC, Raging Rabbit has pretty clearly stated a number of times that he thinks you're town. What are your thoughts on him?

I'm not sure why you're introducing your question with that observation, it doesn't have any bearing on my judgement.
I think he's played a solid game so far.
I don't understand why/how he's so certain on Xtoxm, but I entirely agree with him that there are indeed contradictions between the claims.
Similarly I think his suspicion of iceman was valid, though I still don't get why letting him live another night to do his "investigation", or as it turns out, investigation, would've been a bad idea.
Other than that, I've never really thought him to be scummy.
That said, by process of elimination (you and to a lesser extent eldarad) there's only him, GC and Xtoxm left.

What do people think about Green Crayons's post 649?

The case itself is not that interesting. What is interesting though, is the timing. Guardian had just brought Jahudo to three votes versus Huntress' four.
This might well've been a last effort to save the godfather.
The promise of re-reading Jahudo to see whether he's a more worthy lynch never happened either.

What do people think about eldarad's post 890? I'll give my thoughts about it after you give me yours.

No idea why eldarad doesn't see a contradiction there. I think I've afterwards explained fairly well where it is. He's kind of tying himself to Xtoxm with that.
The notice of RR's town read on Electra supposedly having developed without taking her claim into account made a good question.

--

What happened to our mass claim? I suggest Incognito picks a claim order.

--

I'm nigh on certain TDC is scum.

See Incog? I said yesterday...It doesn't matter his alignment...He has to die.

Vote RR

I'm thinking on a TDC-GC pair now...
[..]

Unvote Vote GC

RR needs to be vigged.

Uh..?

[Raging Rabbit]

Raging Rabbit, the last completed scum game I found of yours was Open 15. Have you recently completed any other game where you've been scum?

viewtopic.php?t=10062- just finished.

viewtopic.php?t=9376 - a little less recent.

What do people think about Green Crayons's post 649?

I think he makes some ok points, but that post is a lot more wordy than it needs to be. Possibly he put on too much effort so he could later show why it makes sense he arrived at the wrong conclusion.

What do people think about eldarad's post 890?

Xtoxm contradicting sthar should be obvious to anyone who takes the time to read, and he starts the bs line of "how could you possibly ignore electra's claim??" questions. So definitely scummy.

I doubt Xtoxm and GC are partners, both because of their early interaction and Xtoxm's last post. Most likely scumpair is Xtoxm-eldarad, Xtoxm-TDC is possible I guess but I'm going to trust my townread and discount this, and Incog Xtoxm-Incog looks good until you count in Incog being close to confirmed because of his claim. If I'm wrong about Xtoxm, the scumteam is most probably eld-GC. So eld is Xtoxm's most likely partner and also most likely to be scum if I'm mistaken, which makes him about as good a lynch as Xtoxm is. Will switch my vote to him if people continue to insist thinking Xtoxm's town.

[Xtoxm]

Xtoxm contradicting sthar should be obvious to anyone who takes the time to read, and he starts the bs line of "how could you possibly ignore electra's claim??" questions. So definitely scummy.

I've read this BS a hundred fucking times already. You are boring. Shut up.

[Xtoxm]

TDC: This is my most recent game as scum. I'll see if I can find another.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

[Xtoxm]

Me as SK:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=

[TDC]

Very funny.

[Xtoxm]

I thought so!

But seriously:

Mini 639
Mafia 83

They're my most recent proper games as scum. I haven't been scum in a long time.

[Xtoxm]

Oh, and I don't need to change my meta because i've never been scum in a game with someone who's half decent at reading me (cept the first time...). Chaz meta'd me at one point, and he got me pretty much figured in both our games (he was town in both, I was scum in one, town in the other), but he's disappeared from the site...Shame.

Most people just always call me scum.

And ftr, yeh my scum play is pretty much what is one is that one time with Incog, just a bit more well rounded.

There's one game, where I considered myself to have played well as scum. I can show you if you like. The rest, I thought I was pretty obvious scum...

[TDC]

Yes, would like to see that.
The two games you've linked are pretty much what Incognito promised.

Oh, and I don't need to change my meta because i've never been scum in a game with someone who's half decent at reading me

What about Incognito then? He knows your meta and lynched you in another game for it. Surely that qualifies as "half decent"?
If you're scum you certainly DID need to play to your town meta, because Incognito would've figured you out otherwise.

[Xtoxm]

Yeh, that's why I put "cept the first time" in brackets. That was my first game as scum. I haven't been scum in a game with Incog since.

I'll get you the link.

[Xtoxm]

NG 651

[Xtoxm]

Yeh, that's why I put "cept the first time" in brackets. That was my first game as scum. I haven't been scum in a game with Incog since.

I'll get you the link.

Oh wait, yeh I have. PYP3. D'oh. I don't know what I was thinking about PYP3...

[Incognito]

NG 651

Scary.

I never knew about that game, but I don't think it changes my vantage point. Xtoxm, what does farside know about your gameplay?

And Raging Rabbit appears to be pretty good scum too, though he tunneled on a single player (MonkeyMan) for a good portion of the time he first replaced in. Bleh.

[Xtoxm]

Scary.

I don't think she knows much about my play, tbh. I just had that in my mind that game cos i'd played with her a few times and she was experienced at mafia in general, and i'd never had a good game as scum.

She always seems to be scum when I play with her. She was town in that one, and Weather Mafia (one of my first games on site). Oh..And that stupid game...I was town ad replaced back into a scum role...But then I flaked cos of my exams...She was vig, but didn't seem to be giving the game any attention.

As of right now, the main players that would make me uncomfortable as scum would be: You, Bionic, Chaz (if he came back) Patrick (despite his recent fail)...And possibly Ether, barely played with her but she appears to have shown competancy at reading me.